Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 03:17 AM

Charlie Hebdo knife attac...
Today at 02:22 AM

The essence of the facts
by akay
Yesterday at 09:54 PM

Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 03:03 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
Yesterday at 01:14 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
September 29, 2020, 08:36 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
September 29, 2020, 10:33 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
September 28, 2020, 01:03 PM

Exmuslim seeking refugee
by zeca
September 26, 2020, 02:39 PM

ملحد في بريطانيا
September 26, 2020, 02:11 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
September 25, 2020, 05:12 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
September 24, 2020, 08:01 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 625989 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 282 283 284285 286 ... 329 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8490 - December 06, 2019, 10:13 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1202666846333341696
    Quote
    Looks like the Soviet politician Sandzhar Asfendiarov (1928) predicted some of Patricia Crone‘s worries about Meccan trade (1987).

    Soviet writing on Early Islam in the 1920s and ’30s is remarkable.

    Orientalists from the Tsarist days were marginalised while Marxist theorists with little to no Arabic were let loose in the academy.

    Lots of big-picture experimentation; not much work on primary sources.

    Then came the Purge. Asfendiarov and colleagues were murdered for their theoretical deviance, among other things. Soviet writing on Early Islam became super-conservative after that, apparently.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8491 - December 06, 2019, 10:17 AM

    A link to Michael Kemper’s article that isn’t behind a paywall:

    Michael Kemper - The Soviet Discourse on the Origin and Class Character of Islam, 1923-1933

    https://www.academia.edu/10632679/The_Soviet_Discourse_on_the_Origin_and_Class_Character_of_Islam_1923-1933
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8492 - December 06, 2019, 11:50 AM



    Crone has understood that there was no trade, because there was no Mecca/Kaba/Zem zem in the Western peninsula. But as she was not psychologically able to detach herself from the narrative with which she was taught the story of Islam, she moved the place of the story further north where a trade has surely existed and the related story.
    The issue with this is  that it is then incomprehensible that such a story did not spread as the "north" is heavily scribal. There is nothing.
    Therefore (for me...) there is no "further north", simply because there is no story. The story comes from the Quran which is enough allusive to built one.



     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8493 - December 06, 2019, 03:10 PM

    Crone has understood that there was no trade, because there was no Mecca/Kaba/Zem zem in the Western peninsula. But as she was not psychologically able to detach herself from the narrative with which she was taught the story of Islam, she moved the place of the story further north where a trade has surely existed and the related story.
    The issue with this is  that it is then incomprehensible that such a story did not spread as the "north" is heavily scribal. There is nothing.
    Therefore (for me...) there is no "further north", simply because there is no story.

    Common .. do you have some grudge against her or what?  why just pick on her? every Academic who wrote something on early Islam did worse than what she published

    Quote
    The story comes from the Quran which is enough allusive to built one.


    ah Ha!., Questions to you dear Altara

    1). when you say,  the story comes from Quran.,  what story are you talking about dear Altara ?

    2) Are you talking about the story of "Muhammad..... Mecca..... Medina.. .. zam zam??"  or

    Are you talking about the story of "these alleged towns as well as a person called Muhammad (though it is Pseudo name) by the story tellers of early Islam may have been present with different names further north to the present Mecca & Medina??

    3). and and .. when Quran sayings are NOT conclusive and its words very ellusive.. then people can built any story they want built around some verses of Quran..  So do you have any story   from Quran on early Islam?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8494 - December 06, 2019, 08:26 PM

    1/ See point #2.
    2/ Yes. The story recounted by the narrative: the Sira of Ibn Ishaq.
    Quote
    3). and and .. when Quran sayings are NOT conclusive and its words very ellusive.. then people can built any story they want built around some verses of Quran..


    3/ Yes. But when one enter in detail of the story ( date, battles, etc.) nobody of the 9th c. narratives are agree. Wink    One see here the limits of fabricating a story from texts like the Quranic corpus.   Wink                     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8495 - December 06, 2019, 09:24 PM

    Altara,

    I agree that it is very probable that the story as described in the Islamic tradition never happened. But we do have the Arab empire and the Quran. There must be a story that really happened. You are not really contributing to the discovery of this. You only say what was not there. We know that by now.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8496 - December 06, 2019, 10:15 PM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes

    Quote
    I agree that it is very probable that the story as described in the Islamic tradition never happened.


    Yes it is. Simply because it is  not enough credible to give an explication of the existence of the Quranic text.

    Quote
    But we do have the Arab empire and the Quran.


    The Quran and the conquest are not related to the story told by the narrative even if the narrative state that it is the case.

    Quote
    There must be a story that really happened.


    Yes, another story. The true one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8497 - December 07, 2019, 10:45 AM

    Hmm mundi trying corner  Altara cat., but the CAT ESCAPES.......
    Quote
    Altara,

    I agree that it is very probable that the story as described in the Islamic tradition never happened. But we do have the Arab empire and the Quran. There must be a story that really happened. You are not really contributing to the discovery of this. You only say what was not there. We know that by now.

    Yes

    Yes it is.
    Quote
    Simply because it is  not enough credible to give an explication of the existence of the Quranic text.

    The Quran and the conquest are not related to the story told by the narrative even if the narrative state that it is the case.


    Yes, another story. The true one.



    but those highlighted words are important suggestions from Altara    at least  to go at the problem......... if not solve the problem

    So dear Altara., you say "there is  not enough credible to give an explication of the existence of the Quranic text."


    that statement  I guess  that is  ............. "to couple Quran to Islamic warfare  / Islamic expansion" ............. did i get that right from your words?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8498 - December 07, 2019, 11:02 AM

    Video: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1203236336741818368
    Quote
    How did the pre-Islamic Arabian nomads of the Harrah conceptualize death and memorialize the lost? A long overdue paper in lecture form (Princeton TRI lunchtime lecture): https://www.kaltura.com/index.php/extwidget/preview/partner_id/1449362/uiconf_id/14292362/entry_id/1_hmyewjvb/embed/dynamic

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8499 - December 07, 2019, 12:10 PM

    Quote
    that statement  I guess  that is  ............. "to couple Quran to Islamic warfare  / Islamic expansion" ............. did i get that right from your words?


    The Quran has nothing to see with the events of the 7th c. It did not active them. It did active them when it was spread in the 8 and 9th c. when Arabs commenced to believe that the events of the 7th c. were activated by it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8500 - December 07, 2019, 01:33 PM

    1). The Quran has nothing to see with the events of the 7th c. 2). It did not active them. It did active them when it was spread in the 8 and 9th c. 3). when Arabs commenced to believe that the events of the 7th c. were activated by it....

    Oh! that is an interesting response for my guess which is twisting the subject that i intended  you move into through my question ., let me dissect response as pointers to go further
    Quote
    Altara:  1). The Quran has nothing to see with the events of the 7th c.


    Is it.,  Quran has NOTHING TO DO (or nothing to see in it ) with the events of the 7th c.??

    Quote
    2). Altara:  Quran  did not active them. It did active them when it was spread in the 8 and 9th c.


    Can I take that statement  as "Quran did not activate any of the events below you see in early Islam "?? in the following time period that is shown below all the way to the beginning or end  9th century

    Quote
    Quote
    STORY PART-1 OF ISLAM
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

    Quote
    STORY PART-2 OF ISLAM
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.   Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.

    Quote
    STORY PART-3 OF ISLAM
    662: Khawarij revolts.
    666: Raid of Sicily.
    670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
    672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
    674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
    677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
    682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
    683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
    684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
    685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
    686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
    687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
    691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
    692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
    695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
    700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.
    702: Ashath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Deir ul Jamira.
    705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph.
    711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    712: The Muslims advance in Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    713: Conquest of Multan.
    715: Death of Walid I. Accession of Sulaiman.
    716: Invasion of Constantinople.
    717: Death of Sulaiman. Accession of Umar b Abdul Aziz.
    720: Death of Umar b Abdul Aziz. Accession of Yazid II.
    724: Death of Yazid II. Accession of Hisham.
    725: The Muslims occupy Nimes in France.
    732: The battle of Tours in France.

    Quote
    STORY PART-4 OF ISLAM
    737: The Muslims meet reverse at Avignon in France.
    740: Shia revolt under Zaid b Ali. Berber revolt in North Africa. Battle of the Nobles.
    741: Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa.
    742: The Muslim rule restored in Qiarowan.
    743: Death of Hisham. Accession of Walid II. Shia revolt in Khurasan under Yahya b Zaid.
    744: Deposition of Walid I1. Accession of Yazid II1 and his death. Accession of Ibrahim and his overthrow. Battle of Ain al Jurr. Accession of Marwan II.
    745: Kufa and Mosul occupied by the Khawarjites.
    746: Battle of Rupar Thutha, Kufa and Mosul occupied by Marwan II.
    747: Revolt of Abu Muslim in Khurasan.
    748: Battle of Rayy.
    749: Battles of lsfahan and Nihawand. Capture of Kufa by the Abbasids. As Saffah becomes the Abbasid Caliph at Kufa.
    750: Battle of Zab. Fall of Damascus. End of the Umayyads.
    751: Conquest of Wasit by the Abbasid. Murder of the Minister Abu Salama.
    754: Death of As Saffah. Accession of Mansur as the Caliph.
    755: Revolt of Abdullah b Ali. Murder of Abu Muslim. Sunbadh revolt in Khurasan.
    756: Abdul Rahman founds the Umayyad state in Spain.
    762: Shia revolt under Muhammad (Nafs uz Zakia) and Ibrahim.
    763: Foundation of Baghdad. Defeat of the Abbasids in Spain.
    767: Khariji state set up by Ibn Madrar at Sijilmasa. Ustad Sees revolt in Khurasan.
    772: Battle of Janbi in North Africa. Rustamid. state set up in Morocco.
    775: Death or the Abbasid Caliph Mansur, Accession of Mahdi,
    777: Battle of Saragossa in Spain.
    785: Death of the Caliph Mahdi. Accession of Hadi.
    786: Death of Hadi. Accession of Harun ur Rashid.
    788: Idrisid state set up in the Maghrib. Death of Abdul Rahman of Spain, and accession of Hisham.
    792: Invasion of South France.
    796: Death of Hisham in Spain; accession of al Hakam.
    799: Suppression of the revolt of the Khazars..
    800: The Aghlabid rule is established in North Africa.
    803: Downfall of the Barmakids. Execution of Jafar Barmki.
    805: Campaigns against the Byzantines. Capture of the islands of Rhodes and Cypress.
    809: Death of Harun ur Rashid. Accession of Amin.
    814: Civil war between Amin and Mamun. Amin killed and Mamun becomes the Caliph.
    815: Shia revolt under Ibn Tuba Tabs.
    816: Shia revolt in Makkah; Harsama quells the revolt. In Spain the Umayyads capture the island of Corsica.
    817: Harsama killed.
    818: The Umayyads of Spain capture the islands of Izira, Majorica, and Sardinia.
    819: Mamun comes to Baghdad.
    820: Tahir establishes the rule of the Tahirids in Khurasan.
    822: Death of AI Hakam in Spain; accession of Abdul Rahman. II.
    823: Death of Tahir in Khurasan. Accession of Talha and his deposition. Accession of Abdullah b Tahir.
    827: Mamun declares the Mutazila creed as the state religion.
    833: Death of Mamun. Accession of Mutasim.
    836: Mutasim shifts the capital to Samarra. 837 Revolt of the Jats.
    838: Revolt of Babek in Azarbaijan suppressed.
    839: Revolt of Maziar in Tabaristan. The Muslims occupy South Italy. Capture of the city of Messina in Sicily.
    842: Death of Mutasim, accession of Wasiq.
    843: Revolts of the Arabs.
    847: Death of Wasiq, accession of Mutawakkil.
    850: Mutawakkil restores orthodoxy.
    849: Death of the Tahirid ruler Abdullah b Tahir; accession of Tahir II.
    852: Death of Abdur Rahman II of Spain;. accession of Muhammad I.
    856: Umar b Abdul Aziz founds the Habbarid rule in Sind.


    well I gave Islam time line until the year 856., mid 9th century ., So dear Altara ., would you consider all that happened in early Islam all the way to the end of 9th century is NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY VERSE OF QURAN??

    and that point three of yours is loaded
    Quote
    altara:   3). when Arabs commenced to believe that the events of the 7th c. were activated by it...

    I will not discuss until I drink the other two pints of beer

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8501 - December 07, 2019, 01:55 PM

    Quote
    Is it.,  Quran has NOTHING TO DO (or nothing to see in it ) with the events of the 7th c.??


    Nothing.

    Quote
    Can I take that statement  as "Quran did not activate any of the events below you see in early Islam "?? in the following time period that is shown below all the way to the beginning or end  9th century


    Until 705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph. 711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana  Quran has NOTHING TO DO (or nothing to see in it ) with the events. After, yes it has. One have inscriptions against the Romans qualified as mushrikun which is a Quranic expression in 710.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8502 - December 07, 2019, 03:37 PM



    Interesting. "Unlike the earlier arabic script the (this/they ?) North Arabian script (Safaitic -200 +400 until Yemen) is perfectly suited for the phonology of Arabic they (?) have individual glyphs for every phoning".
    Question is why there is a considerable regression with the later Quranic script which necessitates to be readable, to have exteriors devices (dots, vowels signs) ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8503 - December 07, 2019, 04:31 PM

    1/Looking at tha arabic script it is clear that inspiration from Aramaic helped develop it. Ok, the lettertypes came from Nabatean (as Nehmé has proven), but without the Aramaic example, difficult to imagine the script evolving out of Nabatean the way it did.

    2/ The ambiguity might have been wanted. It gives a sacrality to the text and favors the insiders: they alone had power over the text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8504 - December 07, 2019, 04:56 PM

    Quote
    Interesting. "Unlike the earlier arabic script the (this/they ?) North Arabian script (Safaitic -200 +400 until Yemen) is perfectly suited for the phonology of Arabic they (?) have individual glyphs for every phoning".
    Question is why there is a considerable regression with the later Quranic script which necessitates to be readable, to have exteriors devices (dots, vowels signs) ?

    1/Looking at tha arabic script it is clear that inspiration from Aramaic helped develop it. Ok, the lettertypes came from Nabatean (as Nehmé has proven), but without the Aramaic example, difficult to imagine the script evolving out of Nabatean the way it did.

    2/ The ambiguity might have been wanted. It gives a sacrality to the text and favors the insiders: they alone had power over the text.



    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1203236336741818368

    Hmm in that above video : Ahmad Al-Jallad, that TRI Lunchtime Lecture ........Death and Remembrance in Pre-Islamic Arabia Allat God?  or goddess??    If it is pre Islamic ., Then Arabic language is well developed in Yemen   and that is before the birth of Quran manuscripts

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8505 - December 07, 2019, 09:34 PM

    1/Looking at tha arabic script it is clear that inspiration from Aramaic helped develop it. Ok, the lettertypes came from Nabatean (as Nehmé has proven), but without the Aramaic example, difficult to imagine the script evolving out of Nabatean the way it did.


    Yes. That Nehmé and Jallad deny vigorously.

    Quote
    2/ The ambiguity might have been wanted. It gives a sacrality to the text and favors the insiders: they alone had power over the text.


    Is  ambiguity wanted in the 512 and 568 inscriptions?
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8506 - December 07, 2019, 11:15 PM

    Emilio González Ferrín - What do we mean by THE Quran

    https://www.academia.edu/37973774/FERRIN_-_What_do_we_mean_by_THE_Quran_-_Amsterdam.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8507 - December 07, 2019, 11:33 PM


     
     
    Mar Aba I Historical Context and Biographical Reconstruction
    Master thesis submitted for partial fulfilment of the requirements for Master of Arts in Syriac Theology

    https://independent.academia.edu/HayatiSaid
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8508 - December 08, 2019, 05:10 PM

    Hello. Here is a video with two people that commentators here in this debate group think have no brain. Well, my brain is even smaller, so I don't know what the reaction to this will be.
    In this video (around 7,00) they talk about passages in the Quran about peoples/ tribes and geographical references that are "way north". The writer of the Quran seems to know these people and to be in contact with them on a daily bases.
    Are these factors a problem for the researcher that thinks everything originated in Hijaz? Or do they just explain it with Muhammed being a trader, travelling around?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hOA8g4IdkU&t=890s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8509 - December 08, 2019, 06:27 PM

    Quote
    Are these factors a problem for the researcher that thinks everything originated in Hijaz?


     Nope.
    Quote
    Or do they just explain it with Muhammed being a trader, travelling around?


    They do not really deal with this topic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8510 - December 08, 2019, 06:52 PM

    Many academics don't see the point of shocking Muslims if not absolutely necessary. There is still a small chance that by some miracle, Mohammed did breathe air in Mecca, so why open the can?

    That's my theory, I might be wrong...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8511 - December 08, 2019, 07:08 PM

    Quote
    Many academics don't see the point of shocking Muslims if not absolutely necessary.

    And as more and more scholars in the Anglo-saxon West in high position are Muslims, all is done to not shock them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8512 - December 08, 2019, 07:51 PM

    Markus Gross writes:

    "I am aware that both believing Muslims and traditional scholars of Islamic Studies must find the
    present article irritating. Still I believe that the alternative view of early Islam just sketched is
    more or less what would emerge from research, if Islam were not one of the major world
    religions with millions of often bellicose adherents. If we did not possess anything about the
    history of early Islam but manuscripts and medieval text editions, hard prima facie evidence
    (inscriptions, coins, artefacts, and excavations), and what “the others said about Islam (or rather
    the Hagarenes),” and if the standard historical-critical methods, which a standard in other
    disciplines, were applied to the letter, then this is roughly the picture with which we would end
    up. "
    Do you agree with him, that academics roughly would have had his views, if it wasn't for "one of the major world
    religions with millions of often bellicose adherents"?

    file:///C:/Users/Asbj%C3%B8rn/Downloads/20%20Early%20Islam%20An%20Alternative%20Scenario%20of%20its%20Emergence%20-%20Korr%20Markus1.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8513 - December 08, 2019, 07:58 PM

    Is this the Markus Gross article? http://www.almuslih.com/Library/Gross,%20M%20-%20Alternative%20Scenario.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8514 - December 08, 2019, 08:38 PM

    Yes, thank you zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8515 - December 08, 2019, 11:03 PM

    Markus Gross writes:

    "I am aware that both believing Muslims and traditional scholars of Islamic Studies must find the
    present article irritating. Still I believe that the alternative view of early Islam just sketched is
    more or less what would emerge from research, if Islam were not one of the major world
    religions with millions of often bellicose adherents. If we did not possess anything about the
    history of early Islam but manuscripts and medieval text editions, hard prima facie evidence
    (inscriptions, coins, artefacts, and excavations), and what “the others said about Islam (or rather
    the Hagarenes),” and if the standard historical-critical methods, which a standard in other
    disciplines, were applied to the letter, then this is roughly the picture with which we would end
    up. "
    Do you agree with him, that academics roughly would have had his views, if it wasn't for "one of the major world
    religions with millions of often bellicose adherents"?

    file:///C:/Users/Asbj%C3%B8rn/Downloads/20%20Early%20Islam%20An%20Alternative%20Scenario%20of%20its%20Emergence%20-%20Korr%20Markus1.pdf



    I'm not agree with Gross scenario, but on the rest, he is right.
    Moreover, Kerr has stopped to publish in English since 2014/15. Point which is (very) significant.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8516 - December 09, 2019, 08:28 AM

    I'm not agree with Gross scenario, but on the rest, he is right.
    Moreover, Kerr has stopped to publish in English since 2014/15. Point which is (very) significant.

     Altara, can you (and others) please elaborate shortly what in Gross scenario do you agree and not agree with? I thought that revisionists were popular in this group.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8517 - December 09, 2019, 11:57 AM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes,
    Quote
    can you  please elaborate shortly what in Gross scenario do you agree and not agree with?


    I'm working on my own one to be (one day) published. 5 to 6 years still to work. So I won't tell it here.

    Gross make mistakes : "Now if it was not Mecca, the question remains where the “territory of emergence” (Gobillot 2008) of Islam can be found. The most likely candidate is the region where the first Islamic coins  were minted: the area around Marw (Southern Turkestan on the Silk Road), the city the caliph ʿAbd al-Malik was probably named after: Marw-ān."

    It is West from Marv.

    "The most logical explanation is that the primary medium of transmission was not the memory of reciters, rather written texts or manuscripts (without diacritical dots), which later were interpreted in different ways."

    Yes.

    "Considering the missing material evidence from Mecca and the questionable appearance of the place name “Mecca” in the Qurʾān (see below), it seems more likely that he did not “divert” the ḥajj pilgrimage to Jerusalem, but rather that it had originally been a pilgrimage to this town, and that only later was it ostensibly “re-directed” to its fictitious original location. According to Dequindance the model for this new holy site was the Buddhist Nowbahār (nava vihāra) in Balkh (Afghanistan), whose description by later Arabic authors strongly reminds the unbiased reader of the Kaʿba (see below)."

    Dequin should give me his weed supplier.

    "Moreover, Dequin has found evidence that it was not until after the ʿAbbāsids had taken
    over power that the pilgrimage to Mecca was established "

    Weed.


    "The research of Raymond Dequin (2012) concentrates on the era of the ʿAbbāsids. His
    findings show that they were in fact a branch of the Umayyads. The new rulers intentionally
    modified their genealogy in order to separate from the rest of the family; instead they created
    family links to the alleged Prophet."

    Possible.
     
    "To give such a fictitious family genealogy more theological  weight, the concepts of muḥammad (“the praised one”) as well as that of ʿalī (“the elevated one”) were historicized ."

    Well...

     "According to Dequin, both terms were originally gnostic concepts denoting redemptory figures, originally going back to Christological notions."

    Weed.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8518 - December 09, 2019, 04:02 PM

    Altara  using a word and I am pulling my hair to understand it and its relationship with early Islam..  and that word is
    .....................

    Weed.

    .........................

    Weed.

    what the hell is that supposed to mean dear Altara.,

    you mean to say.,  All Islamic stories that I see in hadith are the effect of weed on some Christian or Jewish guys/story teller/s of 6th/7th/8th/9th century??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8519 - December 09, 2019, 05:18 PM

    I'm sceptic about a theory that is already there but needs another 6 years to be put on paper. It's probably as good as Gross's. Right here, wrong there.
  • Previous page 1 ... 282 283 284285 286 ... 329 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »