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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8040 - October 22, 2019, 04:50 PM

    Altara - what’s your view on the date of it?

    Difficult question.But in light of the text, I think that a precise date is not really necessary to examine it (contrary to the majority of the other text about the conquest).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8041 - October 22, 2019, 08:13 PM

    David Taylor - The Christology of the Syriac Psalm Commentary (AD 541/2) of Daniel of Salah and the 'Phantasiast' controversy

    https://www.academia.edu/366740/The_Christology_of_the_Syriac_Psalm_Commentary_AD_541_2_of_Daniel_of_Salah_and_the_Phantasiast_controversy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8042 - October 22, 2019, 08:14 PM

    David Taylor - Bilingualism and Diglossia in Late Antique Syria and Mesopotamia

    https://www.academia.edu/366735/Bilingualism_and_Diglossia_in_Late_Antique_Syria_and_Mesopotamia
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8043 - October 22, 2019, 11:36 PM

    Method and Theory in the Study of Islamic Origins

    http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Berg,%20H%20-%20Method%20and%20Theory.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8044 - October 23, 2019, 09:09 AM

    Herbert Berg and Sarah Rollens - The historical Muhammad and the historical Jesus: A comparison of scholarly reinventions and reinterpretations

    https://www.academia.edu/34133690/The_historical_Muhammad_and_the_historical_Jesus_A_comparison_of_scholarly_reinventions_and_reinterpretations
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8045 - October 23, 2019, 09:44 AM

    OK.. you are right and you write well

    But.... but....but you are wrong .........................

    And let me watch this guy   and read him a bit   dr.  Sohail Hashmi  .. A Historian of Islam

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgrn3ty3u8o

    And and you go read .......................

     So yesterday I wrote that ., I did not know Dr.  Sohail Hashmi  before, A highly educated  and a faculty in west , spent time in Harvard and Princeton , is  a thoughtful fascinating guy .. some of his you tube videos and his publications attracted me to watch and read through his works carefully.,

    well Dr.  Sohail Hashmi has number of books and many publications around Islam and middle east to his credit

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=85&v=nqWdejUHlFo

    Dr. Lynn Pasquerella, President of Mount Holyoke College, talks with Sohail Hashmi, Professor of International Relations at Mount Holyoke College, about current issues in the middle east. and some of his news links are here ..

    Quote
    "Middle East Turmoil," Difficult Dialogues, August 28, 2014
    "A Taboo Worth Protecting," Foreign Affairs, September 9, 2013
    "War: What Is It Good For?" Office of Communication, February 5, 2010
    "Sohail Hashmi on Annapolis Peace Conference," Office of Communications, December 6, 2007
    "Professor Hashmi Quoted in Toronto Star," Toronto Star, May 9, 2006
    "Sohail Hashmi Named 2005 Carnegie Scholar," College Street Journal, May 6, 2005
    "Past National Lines," Hashmi interview, WPSU, Penn State University, April 2005
    "Not What The Prophet Would Want, How Can Islamic Scholars Sanction Suicidal Tactics?" Washington Post, June 10, 2002
    "The Terrorists' Zealotry is Political Not Religious," Washington Post, September 30, 2001
    "Hashmi Examines World of International Ethics," College Street Journal, March 9, 2001

    let me watch him.. read him and he has number of fascinating books on Modern Islam and its politics and it is very relevant w.r.t Pakistan - India Politics along with  their Nukes ..  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRqhJUGuE-E

    and his work on this



    Ethics and Weapons of Mass Destruction Religious and Secular Perspectives attracted me to read him..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8046 - October 23, 2019, 10:09 AM

    Quote
    current issues in the middle east. and some of his news links are here ..

    Topic: Qur'anic studies today  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8047 - October 23, 2019, 10:15 AM

    Topic: Qur'anic studies today  Wink


    Oh OK here is his Quranic Studies

    Quote
    http://bostonreview.net/archives/BR27.1/hashmi.html  by Sohail H. Hashmi

      I have long been intrigued by an exchange between Abraham and God that comes early in the Qur'an:

     "Behold! Abraham said: 'My lord! Show me how you give life to the dead.' [God] said: 'Do you not then have faith?' He said: 'Yes, but [I ask this] to satisfy my heart.' [God] replied: 'Take then four birds and teach them to incline toward [or obey] you. Then place a part of them on every hill around you, and then summon them. They will come flying to you. And know that God is almighty, wise'"(2:260). This verse follows several others and precedes many more in which Abraham is depicted as steadfast in his private faith and his public preaching—so much so that he is called khalil Allah (the friend of God) based on Q. 4:125. Why would the Qur'an even allude, I have wondered, to the possibility that this great prophet of God would harbor any doubts about God's power? Could it be that through this dialogue the Qur'an is intimating that skepticism and open questioning are intrinsic aspects of faith?

    To me, this verse is one of the most powerful commandments for tolerance contained in the Qur'an, for if God can answer a prophet's troubled heart with such compassionate understanding, how much more likely is He to understand the doubts of ordinary humans? And if God understands, then how much more incumbent is it upon us human beings to do the same?

    The Qur'an is a deep well from which Muslims may draw plentiful supplies of tolerance, pluralism, respect for diversity—even doubt. Khaled Abou El Fadl outlines these resources well in his thoughtful essay. I agree with him that such resources have been misappropriated by Muslim puritans and extremists. But his argument for misappropriation fails to account for the more widespread exclusivity and intolerance that we encounter in the Islamic intellectual heritage. Narrow and illiberal readings of the Qur'an are not exclusively the province of fringe elements. If that were so, the task of constructing liberal and tolerant societies among Muslim populations would be immeasurably easier. If contemporary Muslims are to realize the full "blessings" of the Qur'an's spirit, as Abou El Fadl urges, they must face up to the full "burden" of their political and intellectual history.

    I want to be clear about my argument: I am not suggesting that Islamic history is one of intolerance. The historical record is clear that Islamic societies of the pre-modern period were generally as accommodating of diversity and religious freedom as their contemporaries in other parts of the world, and in many instances more so. The same cannot be said of modern Islamic states and societies, which lag far behind international standards of equality, democracy, and human rights. My point is that whether we are discussing tolerance, diversity, and freedom in pre-modern or modern Islamic societies, Muslims have generally fallen far short of qur'anic standards. And some of the responsibility for this failure in practice must be ascribed to the limitations in the interpretation of the Qur'an itself.

    To return to Q. 2:260, for example: The most influential commentators have gone to great lengths to eliminate the faintest hint of doubt from Abraham's plea to God. Most classical and modern exegetes agree with al-Qurtubi (d. 1273) that Abraham's request does not signify doubt at all, only the desire "to rise from the knowledge of certainty ['ilm al-yaqin] to the reality of certainty ['ayn al-yaqin]."1 Underlying this exegetical activity is the orthodox dogma that prophets are protected from error and doubt. This principle has to be maintained even if it requires glossing over God's direct question to Abraham, "Do you not then have faith?" If God were to give Abraham "the reality of certainty," then Abraham would no longer require faith. Moreover, we ordinary humans cannot likewise petition God for proof to solidify our faith.

    Quote
    The Qur'an repeatedly points to the complexities and ambiguities of faith. It stresses throughout the narrow line separating righteousness from self-righteousness, and admonishes believers to be humble in the knowledge that no person nor even any creed can claim to have the full truth. Yet repeatedly, the tradition of qur'anic exegesis strains to prove the opposite.


    Let us consider how two qur'anic verses cited by Abou El Fadl have been treated over the long history of exegesis. First, Q. 2:62: "Those who believe, and the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians—any who believe in God and the Last Day, and act righteously shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The verse seems clearly to be extending God's salvation to all humans who profess faith and do good deeds. Nevertheless, the majority of classical commentators found ways to limit its promise. One method was to argue for what Jane McAuliffe calls "salvific stages": thus only Jews, Christians, and Sabians who had adhered to the "pristine" faith—which Islamic belief holds to be common to all prophets—before the advent of Islam are promised God's favor in the afterlife.2 Once Muhammad brought the final revelation, only true Muslims should consider this verse as applying to them.

    A second means of circumscribing the verse's universality, which reinforces the first, is to argue that it has been abrogated by subsequent revelation, including Q. 3:85: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the hereafter he will be among the losers." Instead of attempting to reconcile the verses by contextualizing them in time and in the full qur'anic text, many exegetes have employed the principle of abrogation as a blunt instrument. Hundreds of verses could, in this manner, be labeled "no longer relevant." The fact that Q. 2:62 is repeated almost verbatim in Q. 5:69, a verse believed to have been revealed after Q. 3:85, is conveniently forgotten.

    Q. 2:62's message of tolerance is indirect; Muslims have no monopoly in the life to come and thus can claim no exclusive righteousness in this life. Another verse cited by Abou El Fadl, Q. 5:48, far more directly asserts that religious diversity is not something simply to be tolerated as a necessary evil, but a necessary good to be embraced by all who sincerely strive for the truth: "To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open path. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community. But [His plan is] to test you in what He has given you. So strive as in a race in all the virtues. The goal of you all is to God. It is He who will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."

    This verse is so arresting in its breadth, clarity, and self-confidence that it would seem to leave little room for controversy. Yet again, mainstream qur'anic interpreters found ways to problematize the clearest verses, whose meaning is buttressed by the thrust of qur'anic teaching, while upholding other verses of limited scope as authoritative. Thus, Ibn Kathir (d. 1373)—following a line of reasoning developed by al-Tabari (d. 923) and others—suggests that the separate communities addressed in this verse are pre-Muhammadan communities, and that with the advent of the Muslim community, all other previously valid courses had been annulled by Islam.3  The fact that the verse contains the imperative verb istabiqu, which conveys the sense of multiple, contemporaneous actors "vying" or "racing" toward virtue, is again conveniently glossed over.

    There are of course a number of political and sociological reasons why the exegetical tradition tended toward conservatism and exclusivity when dealing with qur'anic views of the Other. These historical factors need not detain us here; what is most important is to acknowledge this legacy frankly and to chart a course that both responds to it and departs from it. Contemporary Muslim interpreters can ill afford to disregard the conservative legacy, or simply associate it with extremist forms of Islam, for the Qur'an still speaks to millions of the faithful through the voices of its classical commentators. But if modern Muslims are to build tolerant and pluralistic societies based on qur'anic teachings, they must also be prepared to chart a new exegetical course.<


    Sohail H. Hashmi is Alumnae Foundation Associate Professor of International Relations at Mount Holyoke College.

    Click here to return to the exchange, Islam and Tolerance with Abou El Fadl and respondents.

     well read him dear Altara...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8048 - October 23, 2019, 12:14 PM

     Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8049 - October 23, 2019, 12:55 PM

    Wink

    well then let me read these links for you.,  https://emojipedia.org/winking-face/
    and that edited book link of Vol 49 from zeca post
    Method and Theory in the Study of Islamic Origins

    http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Berg,%20H%20-%20Method%20and%20Theory.pdf

    it has good reviews to read  and i like that Uri Rubin's review from page-73 .,   one can also read that review from https://www.academia.edu/6085430/_Prophets_and_Caliphs_the_Biblical_Foundations_of_the_Umayyad_Authority_

    thank you  for winking at me .,  but tell me your opinion on that PROF. URI RUBIN'S   review., what do you think?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8050 - October 23, 2019, 05:24 PM

    Quote
    But if modern Muslims are to build tolerant and pluralistic societies based on qur'anic teachings, they must also be prepared to chart a new exegetical course.\


    Question to you Yeez,

    Why would Muslims want their almost 99 % homogeneous Muslim societies to become pluralistic?
    It's not that Western Christian states "wanted" to become pluralistic. It just happened due to lack of faith and immigration. Apparently Muslim society has a better control over all that and found the way to keep pandora's box closed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8051 - October 23, 2019, 06:24 PM

     
    Question to you Yeez,

    Quote
    But if modern Muslims are to build tolerant and pluralistic societies based on qur'anic teachings, they must also be prepared to chart a new exegetical course.\


    Why would Muslims want their almost 99 % homogeneous Muslim societies to become pluralistic?
    It's not that Western Christian states "wanted" to become pluralistic. It just happened due to lack of faith and immigration. Apparently Muslim society has a better control over all that and found the way to keep pandora's box closed.


    Hello mundi., I am tired .. not sure where you got those highlighted words ??   Is it from PROF. URI RUBIN'S   review.??  or from that other guy dr.  Sohail   Hashmi??

    whatever .,   but  before answering your question., Why would Muslims want their almost 99 % homogeneous Muslim societies to become pluralistic?

     there is a serious problem in that highlighted underlined words of that Quote  and that is "pluralistic societies based on qur'anic teachings"

    unless one cherry picks and selectively uses few verses of Quran.,  Quranic teachings are NOT for building pluralistic faith based society .,.. so right there .. there is a problem., now the person may be using that statement for Muslim folks who are living in multi polar society  where State/govt  will not use the religious rules of majority on the society ..

    that is simply not possible in Islam ., the one way to do that is .. preaching /brain washing  billion Muslim folks  THAT QURAN IS NOT WORD OF GOD OR ALLAH.. but it is book/sayings of its time ..and telling folks in every mosque that monologue  La ilaha illallah.... and stop there

     ie.. "there is no god but god.,  and inquire yourself about that god ".. no book... no mosques ...no preachers ... you become your own preacher ...you be your own prophet

    but you are not helping me with Quran..  banghead banghead


    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8052 - October 23, 2019, 06:53 PM

    Yeez,

    You recommended Sohail and the quote I extracted is his conclusion in the extract you posted. So this is "your"stuff...

    I agree with you. This pluralistic ideal is a modern western construct. Sohail is the one cherry picking, just as the traditionalist are too. It is hard to criticize or leave one's childhood religion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8053 - October 23, 2019, 09:00 PM

    Yeez,

    You recommended Sohail and the quote I extracted is his conclusion in the extract you posted. So this is "your"stuff...

    well He was born and grew up in a multicultural society .,  It is similar to my life which is structured by  multi-religious  brought up., but one must separate him/herself from rigid religious nonsense structures  that are erected with in family or with in the society ., otherwise one has to live with Cognitive Dissonance fighting questions within self... throughout his/her life.,  well take the golden rule and fix every other rule that comes out of faiths

    Quote
    I agree with you. This pluralistic ideal is a modern western construct.

    modern means what? 1950, 60,  80,  90s??   or you mean to say  in Governmental affairs ?? such as  fundamental rights.. even there ., there are still problems

    Quote
    Sohail is the one cherry picking, just as the traditionalist are too. It is hard to criticize or leave one's childhood religion.

      I agree when it comes to faiths., specially Islam., it is hard to do that in public ., but it is NOT impossible unless you are living in Lands like LAND OF PURE ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8054 - October 23, 2019, 10:25 PM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds - Biblical Background to the Qur’an

    https://www.academia.edu/33156481/_Biblical_Background_to_the_Quran_Wiley-Blackwell_Handbook_of_the_Qurʾān_Oxford_Blackwell_2017_303-19
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8055 - October 23, 2019, 10:55 PM


    that Yale University  postgraduate student SHOULD HAVE WRITTEN EXACTLY OPPOSITE to what he has written  in that Biblical Background to the Qur'an

    instead of that he should have written a paper on   What Non-Biblical Background Does  Qur'an Has?, that exploration of the subject would have been more interesting ... 

    well let us see what we have in that 2nd edition



    Quote
    TABLE OF CONTENTS
    List of Contributors viii

    Preface xi
    Andrew Rippin

    Introduction 1
    Jawid Mojaddedi

    Part I Orientation 5

    1 Introducing 7
    Tamara Sonn

    2 Discovering 23
    Christopher Buck

    3 Contextualizing 43
    Abdullah Saeed

    Part II Text 59

    4 Linguistic Structure 61
    Salwa El‐Awa

    5 Patterns of Address 82
    Rosalind Ward Gwynne

    6 Language 97
    Mustansir Mir

    7 Poetry and Language 117
    Navid Kermani

    8 Foreign Vocabulary 130
    Michael Carter

    9 Structure and the Emergence of Community 151
    Angelika Neuwirth

    10 Sacrality and Collection 171
    Aliza Shnizer

    11 Written Transmission 184
    François Déroche

    12 Context: Muḥammad 200
    Herbert Berg

    13 Context: ʿUmar b. al‐Khaṭṭāb 218
    Avraham Hakim

    Part III Content 235

    14 God 237
    Andrew Rippin

    15 Prophets and Prophethood 248
    Uri Rubin

    16 Moses 262
    Brannon Wheeler

    17 Abraham 280
    Carol Bakhos

    18 Jesus 288
    Gordon Nickel

    19 Biblical Background 303
    Gabriel Said Reynolds

    20 Other Religions 320
    Mun’im Sirry

    21 Argumentation 333
    Kate Zebiri

    22 Knowing and Thinking 349
    A. H. Mathias Zahniser

    23 Sex, Sexuality, and the Family 365
    Khaleel Mohammed

    24 Jihād 376
    Reuven Firestone

    Part IV Interpretation 389

    25 Hermeneutics: al‐Thaʿlabı 391
    Walid Saleh

    26 Stories of the Prophets 406
    Marianna Klar

    27 Ṣūfism 418
    Alan Godlas

    28 Rūmı 430
    Jawid Mojaddedi

    29 Ibn al‐ʿArabı 442
    Binyamin Abrahamov

    30 Twelver Shıʿı Taʾwıl 449
    Diana Steigerwald

    31 Ismāʿılı Taʾwıl 463
    Diana Steigerwald

    32 Modern and Contemporary Interpretation of the Qurʾān 479
    Johanna Pink

    Part V Application 493

    33 Exegetical Sciences 495
    Jane Dammen McAuliffe

    34 Theology 512
    Binyamin Abrahamov

    35 Jurisprudence 526
    A. Kevin Reinhart

    36 Contemporary Ethical Issues 543
    Leah Kinberg

    37 Narrative Literature 562
    Roberto Tottoli

    38 Recitation 577
    Anna M. Gade

    Bibliography 591

    Index of People, Places and Topics 632

    Index of Qurʾān Verses 651

    not much

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8056 - October 23, 2019, 11:27 PM

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i2k7QhaR7Zs
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8057 - October 24, 2019, 08:19 AM

    Tom Holland podcast:

    He mentions the plague that mainly happened in urban centuries (6th C) and less is "the desert".

    Would that have provoked an extra demographic pressure from the Eastern fringes (the client Arab states) to the heartland of the Eastern Roman empire? Expansions of empires always are accompanied with demographical shifts imo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8058 - October 24, 2019, 11:16 AM

    the plague Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8059 - October 24, 2019, 11:58 AM

    Quote
    Tom Holland podcast:

    He mentions the plague that mainly happened in urban centuries (6th C) and less is "the desert".

    rubbish he has no proof of that .. he is just hand waving the statement., or at best using common sense to say that., simply because urban centers must have had higher population density than rural areas hence more deaths due to plague .. I must say here  that  I have not watched that video

    Quote
    Would that have provoked an extra demographic pressure from the Eastern fringes (the client Arab states) to the heartland of the Eastern Roman empire? Expansions of empires always are accompanied with demographical shifts imo.

    well that demography you are talking must be local demography dear mundi., they didn't come from Rome., it can not be like western folks moving in to  American continent  or British and others moving in to South Africa  in the last century.


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8060 - October 24, 2019, 12:12 PM

    Rejecting Catastrophe: The Case of the Justinianic Plague

    https://www.academia.edu/39898914/Rejecting_Catastrophe_The_Case_of_the_Justinianic_Plague
    Quote
    Recent research has increasingly argued that the Justinianic Plague was an unparallelled demographic catastrophe which killed half the population of the Mediterranean world and led to the end of Antiquity. This article re-examines the evidence and reconsiders whether this interpretation is justified. It builds upon an array of interdisciplinary research that includes literary and non-literary primary sources, archaeological excavations, DNA research, disaster studies and resilience frameworks. Each type of primary source material is critically reassessed and contextualized in light of current research. By drawing upon this interdisciplinary foundation, the article demonstrates that the evidence for the catastrophic maximalist interpretation of plague is weak, ambiguous and should be rejected. The article also makes use of the Third Pandemic as a comparative case study, and considers how the metanarratives of plague in contemporary society influence research on the subject. It concludes that the Justinianic Plague had an overall limited effect on late antique society. Although on some occasions the plague might have caused high mortality in specific places, leaving strong impressions on contemporaries, it neither caused widespread demographic decline nor kept Mediterranean populations low. Any direct mid- or long-term effects of plague were minor at most.

  • Re: Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8061 - October 24, 2019, 12:17 PM


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8062 - October 24, 2019, 03:07 PM



    It's not just the plague Wink (yawn...) On the other hand, the ease with which the Persians have took over almost all the Roman Orient attests that the plague (and the other thing... Wink ) have rather strongly weakened the Romans since Justinian.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8063 - October 24, 2019, 04:19 PM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    well that demography you are talking must be local demography dear mundi., they didn't come from Rome., it can not be like western folks moving in to  American continent  or British and others moving in to South Africa  in the last century.


    Local is relative. The Germanic tribes were also the neighbors of the Romans. You can call them locals. The demographic pressure played a role in the germanic take over of the Western Roman Empire, local or not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8064 - October 24, 2019, 05:08 PM

    The demographic pressure played a role in the germanic take over of the Western Roman Empire, local or not.


    Is there any real evidence for this? Not that it’s impossible but I’m not sure where you’d find the evidence in any case. The whole topic of barbarian migrations in the west is contested and I’m not sure it’s any less problematic than the origins of Islam. Anyway here’s a new blog post from Guy Halsall who is apparently working on another book on it.

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2019/10/introduction-first-thing-i-want-to-say.html
    Quote
    Approaches driven by the traditional ‘barbarian migration’ narrative have frequently argued that the Roman-barbarian frontier was deepening into the Empire, but when read on their own terms the archaeological data suggest quite the opposite: the increasing ‘Romanisation’ of barbaricum.  This should not surprise us.

    ‘Career migration’ into the Empire was a standard feature of barbarian life.  The late Roman army may or may not have recruited more barbarians than before but, with the separation of civil and military service, the opportunity for non-Romans to rise high in the army was certainly greater.  Alamans and, later, Franks did very well in the fourth-century military.

    The Empire continued to intervene in barbarian politics, paying large sums to barbarian groups to keep others in check and periodically launching military operations.  Diplomatic payments became extremely important in politics beyond the limes.  Setting up and knocking down barbarian leaders remained essential to Roman frontier policy.  As had been the case since the late Republic, losing barbarian factions tended to move to imperial territory for security.  That north-western barbaricum was a periphery of the Roman Empire and the dynamics involved in this relationship are hugely important in understanding fifth-century history.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8065 - October 24, 2019, 05:28 PM

    Halsall on the effects in the west of Justinian’s wars, and the plague.
    Quote
    We should perceive some broader shifts under way, doubtless connected to the fall-out from the Emperor Justinian’s wars of reconquest, launched in the mid-sixth century.  These terrible, destructive conflicts failed to restore imperial hegemony and had effects far beyond the areas fought over.  They were, furthermore, accompanied by a terrible outbreak of plague, adding – regardless of recent debate about its real extent – to the period’s generally apocalyptic feel.  These changes, which did much to rupture long-standing patterns of life in the Mediterranean, doubtless played a significant role in producing the change in economic patterns mentioned earlier, leading to closer links between Ireland and northern Britain and mainland Europe.  Those shifts in long-distance trade patterns were probably an important element in political change in northern Britain and Ireland, perhaps producing, as elsewhere, more intensive local authority and a break-up of earlier, looser hegemonies.  These Mediterranean crises may even have affected Scandinavia, where the Eastern Empire had been an important source of precious metals and other prestigious imports.

    A shift in ideas may however have been as important as any of this.  As we have seen, the Roman Empire had been an overwhelming presence for the people beyond the frontiers, moulding all sorts of ideas about power and authority.  Some fifth-century bracteates derived their models from depictions of the Emperor on much earlier, fourth-century Roman coins.  Therefore, even after the Western Empire’s collapse, ideas continued to be shaped by notions of Rome and the emperor.  Indeed, I just suggested that such ideas might have started to have more of a direct impact further east than before.  The Justinianic wars changed this.  Justinian based his wars on a strident proclamation that the Western Empire had been ‘lost’ to barbarians and thus needed to be reconquered.  The ultimate failure to reintegrate all the western territories resulted in a new, formal boundary being drawn around the imperial territories in southern Spain and Italy.  I have suggest that as a result of this, perhaps, a new, more integrated zone with what might loosely be called ‘inward-looking’ relationships and political dynamics developed within Germania Magna.   From this, eventually, the polity of ‘Germany’ emerged.  More significantly, perhaps, the impact of these changes on what I suggested had in a way become a kind of new ‘immediate’ or even provincial zone may have played a role in the break-up of the Merovingian hegemony east of the Rhine, even though, as is well known, it was more the case that the links binding these territories into Frankish politics changed rather than broke.  This must surely be crucial to the changing population structures and political relationships on the Elbe.

    Awareness that the Roman Empire no longer existed in western Europe produced a profound crisis in the former imperial territories there.  No more could legitimacy be based on an allegedly official position in imperial bureaucracy or a claim to represent the Emperor.  The Emperor himself had made it clear that his writ no longer ran in the West.  ‘Barbarian’ territory’s integration within the imperial orbit made this crisis as visible beyond the old limes as within them.  New ideological underpinnings were sought.  In the former provinces these largely came from the Old Testament and it may be no accident that this was a period when Christian (and again Old Testament) ideology became more influential beyond the old frontier – most obviously in Ireland but also in northern Britain.  Christian foundations spread into Germania Magna and, further away, shifts in the ideological bases of power apparently occurred.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8066 - October 24, 2019, 06:05 PM

    Some comments on the numbers involved in migrations in the west from a previous post by Guy Halsall. I wonder if there are parallels here with possible numbers for armies from Arabia. How big could an army from the Hijaz have been?

    https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2019/07/reconsidering-mechanics-of-migration.html
    Quote
    I want to rehearse some arguments I have made before about numbers, in the military context. I am not the first to express scepticism about the numbers Roman sources give for the size of barbarian forces, yet such numbers are still routinely repeated in modern works. If we leave aside huge figures like 80,000 or 100,000 we can look at the number given by Ammianus for the Alamannic army at the battle of Strasbourg in 357: 35,000 – a number often repeated without the usual scrutiny or reservation. How likely is it that even a confederacy like the Alamans could put together an army that size?

    One can think comparatively. Armies of that order of magnitude were not common in better-documented eras until the seventeenth century, although they are certainly attested in the late middle ages. The largest recorded muster of the medieval kingdom of England was just over 32,000 men, in the 1340s. One might mention, in contrast, the capacity of the Zulu kingdom to put armies of over 20,000 men into the field but it must be remembered that these armies assembled quickly, in a different sort of terrain and political structure, and dispersed equally quickly. Could the Alamanni have done something similar? It is worth considering how this could have happened but we need to think hard about those mechanisms and not simply assume them. Such an army would need, like the Zulu, to assemble, fight and disperse quickly. For the Alamanni, a point can be made here, to which I will return: the presence, in however decayed condition, of the Roman road network in the former Agri Decumates, which, perhaps would allow a large army to assemble quickly. Such a force would nonetheless not be sustainable over a long campaign.

    The reason for that is logistical. The largest settlements in Iron-Age Germanic-speaking Barbaricum had populations numbering only hundreds. In other words, the economy of Germania Magna was not geared to the provisioning of large numbers of people. An army of 35,000 men would be a population group seventy times the size of the largest settlements in Germania. Historically, armies have sometimes been more numerous than cities; the English muster of 32,000 in 1347 – if they were all gathered at the same place, which is not entirely clear – was two or three times the size of most of the larger English cities, though still be smaller than the estimated population of London at that date. But not seventy times larger…! For that ratio Edward III would need to have assembled something like 700,000 men. The larger late medieval armies were, moreover, raised in urbanised societies with fully monetary economies and complex market, trade and supply networks and systems, taxation, better agricultural techniques with greater yields and so on: things not available to a fourth-century barbarian polity.

    Moving of 35,000 men through the late antique landscape – on either side of the Rhine – would consume the grain supplies and livestock of entire communities every day, producing famine, and probably still going hungry. The late Tim Reuter described the effect on the ninth/tenth-century landscape of an army of 20,000 men as equivalent to the down-wind fall-out ellipse of a nuclear explosion; it’s an image worth remembering, not least because the socio-economy context of Carolingian Europe offered more possibilities for supporting a larger army than did that of Iron Age Germania.

    A much smaller army, say 10,000 men – or less – could be catastrophic for the population of the regions through which it moved. To see the sort of devastation wrought on Roman provinces that is sometimes attested in the written sources does not require us to envisage enormous invading hordes.

    The solution to these problems would be for individual contingents to bring their food with them. How many days’ supplies could be transported by a warrior? With baggage animals, the amount increases but, as the classic studies of military logistics have demonstrated, the demand for fodder and food for the animals’ attendants grows parallel to the number of baggage animals. Charlemagne expected his warriors to bring food for three months’ service in the early ninth century. Again, while that is an interesting comparandum, one needs to take account of broader context. Charlemagne’s was a much more complex and well-organised realm than any in fourth-century Barbaricum: urbanized and monetized to some extent. He also enacted at length about supply carts, package animals, the preservation of fodder for passing troops and the maintenance of bridges and boats. The law about a three months’ supply also applies to the caballarii of a monastery, mounted troops supplied from a large land-owning establishment. Indeed, Charlemagne envisaged that the resources of four farms were necessary to furnish a single warrior. How much of this can be applied to Iron-Age barbarian armies? We would need much better evidence than we currently have before we could assume that much of it was applicable in detail. Charlemagne’s field armies were almost certainly much smaller than 30,000 men. Karl Leyser suggested that such armies were fed as much by cattle on the hoof as by waggon- or pack-horse-loads of grain; this might apply to barbarian forces too. If so, however, issues about fodder and ease of movement across difficult terrain are emphasised.

    It’s nonetheless worth remembering that in the 350s a force of 600 Franks caused Julian serious problems.  There’s no logical reason to suppose that Roman writers were more likely to be telling the truth when they mentioned low numbers than when they recorded very high ones but we might accept that this was a ‘small’ force. The Romans defeated it by starving it out. Before that, it can have done enormous damage.  Six hundred warriors would be more than entire Roman communities outside the towns and could move rapidly, consuming settlements’ bread, killing and eating the cattle they were saving for winter, murdering anyone who objected, raping and/or enslaving women and children with impunity. If a couple of Roman field army regiments caught them, the game would be up and swift punishment meted out, but it’s vital remember the damage and trauma even a small raiding force could cause.  Let’s not sanitise this!

    This has important implications for barbarian migrations that have rarely been discussed. How feasible was it for a barbarian ‘horde’ of 20,000 warriors plus families and followers – up to the number of 100,000 frequently found in modern discussions (including mine) – to travel any distance or for any length of time?

    We must ask serious questions before repeating the numerical estimates that have become almost canonical in the literature. My paper is mostly about asking questions – frequently quite obvious ones.  Many are unanswerable, in some cases perhaps only in the current state of our knowledge but in others they concern things we can never know. Nonetheless the existence and importance of these questions need to hang over future discussions of migration. We can’t simply assume things. We can’t be afraid to challenge age-old consensuses, to point out the difficulties in making assumptions or to admit there are things we can’t know.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8067 - October 24, 2019, 06:35 PM

    Yeez,

    Local is relative. The Germanic tribes were also the neighbors of the Romans. You can call them locals. The demographic pressure played a role in the germanic take over of the Western Roman Empire, local or not.

    yes you are right mundi.,  indeed  it is relative.,

    As far as this German tribe vs Roman tribe is concerned   ..........germanic take over of the Western Roman Empire,.... ....  ., Last time I was in Europe .. It took me 40 mts to drive from German borders to Italian borders., An hour or a bit more on good horse could  also have taken me from German border to Italian borders

    This demographic pressure could play a role if All Christians or All Muslims moving one place other place some 1000 miles away., but that is NOT how Islam took foot hold on all these so-called Islamic lands from Spain to India with in 150 years or after so-called Prophet of Islam died.....

    For e.g. Take that example of Alexander taking over many countries from Greece to borders of India ....   THERE IS NO ALEXANDERISM today unlike Islam...........    and I am sure you know this.,  the  game with Islam is entirely  different .. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8068 - October 24, 2019, 06:40 PM

    Quote
    How big could could an army from the Hijaz have been?


    How one can dress, manage and feed, in a barren desert,with (small) oasis, armies strong enough (50 000 strong, at least) to take out Iraq and Syria-Palestine? One will need to explain me that carefully (with sources....)
    It is not  factually possible. Unless they did so in a parallel universe the one of the 9th c. narratives embedded to the story which explains to them the existence of the Quranic texts. The story ends here I'm afraid Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8069 - October 24, 2019, 06:52 PM

    I suppose it’s conceivable to have a small force going off to join a revolt that is already ongoing. Anything much larger is hard to imagine.
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