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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7950 - October 15, 2019, 08:13 PM
    Expansion only happens with continued population increase imo. When that is not the case anymore, the need to look for greener grass elsewhere disappears. Was there an unequal population increase btw Romans and Arabs?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7951 - October 15, 2019, 09:18 PM
    Arabs were already a big part of the population in Iraq and in Syria-Palestine. There is no "expansion". This concept of "expansion" flows from the traditional narrative which recounts an invasion from the peninsula. All of this is inexact. There is no invasion, no expansion in Syria Palestine or Iraq.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7952 - October 15, 2019, 11:38 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 15, 2019, 09:18 PM
    There is no invasion, no expansion in Syria Palestine or Iraq.


    Altara - in your view would you see it more as an uprising or revolutionary movement? Would you see any comparison to previous acclamations of a new emperor in the Roman provinces, followed by attempts to take the capital? It does look like taking Constantinople was a central objective, even if it was never successful and ended in a kind of stalemate with the remaining Roman empire.

    In the Secret History (  https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B4KV-S3BX7AC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=%22a+similar+law+was+immediately+enacted+regarding+the+samaritans%22&source=bl&ots=VES2_enp2e&sig=ACfU3U33y-v0FwnjoSccTOLkIYT82wLhNg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH4ZanuZ_lAhVFI1AKHQq4BMcQ6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22a%20similar%20law%20was%20immediately%20enacted%20regarding%20the%20samaritans%22&f=false ) Procopius mentions a Samaritan revolt where a new emperor was acclaimed. According to Kaldellis’s footnote, “the Samaritan revolt occurred in 529. Ioulianos was actually proclaimed emperor: he took Neapolis (Nablus) and presided over chariot races there. His head was sent to Justinian.” Could the ‘conquests’ be seen as a kind of more successful rerun of this?

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7953 - October 16, 2019, 12:34 AM
    Quote
    Altara - in your view would you see it more as an uprising or revolutionary movement?


    An uprising not fueled by the Quran as understood after Abd al Malik . That does mean that Quranic texts may have existed in the hand of literati around the leaders which were slowly taught that the biblical God had talk in Arabic that he had sent someone, etc. But is was not the cause of the uprising.  The best indication (for me) of this, is that Jerusalem is not the first objective of these Arabs, but another one Wink very understandable when you put aside the traditional narrative. Wink
    Quote
    Would you see any comparison to previous acclamations of a new emperor in the Roman provinces, followed by attempts to take the capital.


    Nope.

    Quote
    It does look like taking Constantinople was a central objective,

    Why Constantinople would have been a central objective?Ask yourself the question in  putting  aside the traditional narrative, you can find it. If I did it, you can do it as well Wink Put aside what has circumvented you and which is printed in your brain; and reflects anew with the sources since the 5th c.


    Quote
    In the Secret History  Procopius mentions a Samaritan revolt where a new emperor was acclaimed. According to Kaldellis’s footnote, “the Samaritan revolt occurred in 529. Ioulianos was actually proclaimed emperor: he took Neapolitan (Nablus) and presided over chariot races there. His head was sent to Justinian.” Could the ‘conquests’ be seen as a kind of more successful rerun of this?


    At the surface of events, from  (very) far, yes it could. But (for me...) you have to dig the stuff far
    more deeper than that and you will realize that this "could" is not what happened in the 7th c. Why Constantinople would have been a central objective? Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7954 - October 16, 2019, 04:48 AM
    Ayla (Aqaba) seems to have been a primary early objective. I would think it has to do with trade, just like in Iran.

    We see that early Arabs left traces (or it seems like it) very early in 7th C all over the place: India, China, Ethiopia. Contacts there must have been established pre 630, pre proto islam. I can only think of a trade network that would explain these.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7955 - October 16, 2019, 08:58 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 15, 2019, 08:02 PM
    Justinian Plague has decimated the Roman Empire get a glance on Academia about this topic.There is one more catastrophic event, I let you discover what was it. Wink


    Are you looking at Justinian’s wars and attempts to impose Orthodoxy? Reading Procopius they look fairly catastrophic. Or do you see something that’s more catastrophic than this?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7956 - October 16, 2019, 09:05 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 16, 2019, 12:34 AM
    Why Constantinople would have been a central objective?


    In a dispute between confessional pluralism (for people of the book at least) and the imposition of Orhodoxy then Constantinople was the political and religious base for Orthodoxy?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7957 - October 16, 2019, 09:53 AM
    Quote from: zeca on October 16, 2019, 08:58 AM
    Are you looking at Justinian’s wars and attempts to impose Orthodoxy?Or do you see something that’s more catastrophic than this?


    You have the plague and you have one more catastrophic event which  brings another layer of desperation to the people and (both) will give all the apocalyptic stuff that one see from the middle of the 6 th.c. and on which the Quran heavily  draws Wink.
    You will read it in my work Wink All is fitting, considering I'm not H.G Wells (of course...).

    Why Constantinople would have been a central objective?


    Quote
    In a dispute between confessional pluralism (for people of the book at least) and the imposition of Orthodoxy then Constantinople was the political and religious base for Orthodoxy?


    It is much more simple than that. Reflects.
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7958 - October 16, 2019, 09:54 AM
    Quote from: mundi on October 16, 2019, 04:48 AM
    Ayla (Aqaba) seems to have been a primary early objective.


    Nope.

     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7959 - October 16, 2019, 10:28 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 16, 2019, 12:34 AM
    The best indication (for me) of this, is that Jerusalem is not the first objective of these Arabs, but another one


    Other than Constantinople?

    Quote
    Put aside what has circumvented you and which is printed in your brain; and reflects anew with the sources since the 5th c.


    In your view what sources are important here?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7960 - October 16, 2019, 10:53 AM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1184114281341583362
    Quote
    The Quranic reading traditions are a great source of information of Classical Arabic in the early Islamic period. For this reason it makes sense that Jonathan Owens in his "A Linguistic History of Arabic"  draws upon it frequently, but also badly.

    A thread with annoyances:

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7961 - October 16, 2019, 11:20 AM
    Quote from: zeca on October 16, 2019, 10:28 AM
    Other than Constantinople?


    You have to reflect. It is yet very clear geopolitically.

    Quote
    In your view what sources are important here?


    What sources are important to understand the conflict in Syria? The same as what happened since 224 (Sassanian in power in Persia.) What displays this (new) Persian power? What does they want?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7962 - October 16, 2019, 12:00 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 16, 2019, 11:20 AM
    It is yet very clear geopolitically.


    Ctesiphon ?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7963 - October 16, 2019, 01:04 PM
    Well... you seems rather lost. One could say that nobody has seen it then I would be the only one. The issue is not there, it is that I'm the only historian in the field which have putting aside the narrative (to which I believed like  everybody (including Gallez, Crone, etc.) before...
    As none other scholar dare (in their works) putting it aside, it's seems normal that things of the narrative replace/hide established sources which explains the events very well  which does not need the frame Mecca/Kaba.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7964 - October 16, 2019, 02:36 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: zeca on October 16, 2019, 12:00 PM
    Ctesiphon ?

    Quote from: Altara on October 16, 2019, 01:04 PM
    Well... you seems rather lost. One could say that nobody has seen it then I would be the only one. The only issue is not that, it is that I'm the only historian in the field which have putting aside the narrative (to which I believed like  everybody (including Gallez, Crone, etc.) before...
    As none other scholar dare (in their works) putting it aside, it's seems normal that things of the narrative replace/hide established sources which explains the events very well  which does not need the frame Mecca/Kaba.


    .,  nooo...nooo.,   no one is lost ..  and   no one is unquestionable .. but wiki links are ok as an introduction to a story.,  The write up in  that  should not  be taken as authentic history ...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7965 - October 16, 2019, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2019, 09:01 AM
    And so?These stories come from the sky rewritten?


    No you just need to have people translating them in order to utilize them within a community.

    Quote
    It is about parts of the Quran which would be hadith?


    No.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7966 - October 16, 2019, 03:07 PM
    Quote from: zeca on October 16, 2019, 12:00 PM
    Ctesiphon ?


    He probably refers to the place where the Umayyads had their throne Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7967 - October 16, 2019, 03:25 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 16, 2019, 03:00 PM
    No you just need to have people translating them in order to utilize them within a community.



    Which Quranic texts are translated, can you give an example?

    Quote
    No.

    We won't know any more, too bad!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7968 - October 16, 2019, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 16, 2019, 03:07 PM
    He probably refers to the place where the Umayyads had their throne Smiley


    Damascus? Well maybe, but why would it be more important than Caesarea? After Palestine and Syria are taken then there are obvious strategic reasons to choose a base inland but before that wouldn’t Caesarea be the centre of Roman control?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7969 - October 16, 2019, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 15, 2019, 08:02 PM
    Justinian Plague has decimated the Roman Empire get a glance on Academia about this topic.There is one more catastrophic event, I let you discover what was it. Wink
     All of these has precipitated the Apocalyptic atmosphere.


    Procopius on the Justinianic Plague: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eK9aBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=%22during+those+times+there+was+a+plague%22&source=bl&ots=GjAMSWMStK&sig=ACfU3U1NNSPzeNIEKHnesmEbUCyq2NXuxA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO2cmjtKHlAhWMh1wKHVM-DVoQ6AEwAXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22during%20those%20times%20there%20was%20a%20plague%22&f=false

    Kaldellis on Procopius’ account: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B4KV-S3BX7AC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=%22Date+541-542.+The+plague%22&source=bl&ots=VES2-bkw8e&sig=ACfU3U2J9NgU-sUzyuxPgkYpVZDDmQJgRQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEy7TdtaHlAhVxu3EKHebODD0Q6AEwAHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Date%20541-542.%20The%20plague%22&f=false
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7970 - October 16, 2019, 07:25 PM
    Quote
    Damascus? Well maybe, but why would it be more important than Caesarea?


    Reflects.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7971 - October 16, 2019, 07:45 PM
    Damascus is where the head of John the Baptist is preserved and Jesus will return there at the end of times. Muslims were quick to reserve a prayer room in the Cathedral. All this according to Wikipedia. A bit too simple to be the crux of your theory Altara?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7972 - October 16, 2019, 07:50 PM
    According to this" Damascus is where the head of John the Baptist is preserved and Jesus will return there at the end of times. Muslims were quick to reserve a prayer room in the Cathedral. " Surely Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7973 - October 16, 2019, 08:14 PM
    Altara - would you say then that religious objectives had priority over military and political strategy?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7974 - October 16, 2019, 08:29 PM
    An uprising not fueled by the Quran as understood after Abd al Malik . Therefore, nope. The "religious" exists (637 Jerusalem) but is secondary.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7975 - October 16, 2019, 08:50 PM
    An uprising led by practical men rather than religious zealots then? Not that in the ancient world religion would ever have been completely absent from people’s thinking.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7976 - October 16, 2019, 10:03 PM
    He is secondary because  one does not need one year from Yarmuk to go to Jerusalem in a land void of armies.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7977 - October 16, 2019, 10:21 PM
    Would you see it as an uprising with full-time standing armies? Or armies with a campaigning season where soldiers go back to their farms, flocks or towns and villages for part of the year? Or some combination of the two? The traditional narrative would imply full-time armies but is this supported by contemporary sources? Could the idea of emigration be an indication that soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis? Could that be where the idea of hijra actually comes from?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7978 - October 16, 2019, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 16, 2019, 03:25 PM
    Which Quranic texts are translated, can you give an example?


    Sura 5 verses 30 to 32 for example.

    Quote
    We won't know any more, too bad!


    Reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7979 - October 16, 2019, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 16, 2019, 07:50 PM
    Jesus will return there at the end of times. Muslims were quick to reserve a prayer room in the Cathedral. "


    Muslim narrative 2 centuries after the fact.

    Quote
    Muslims were quick to reserve a prayer room in the Cathedral. "

    Muslim narrative 2 centuries after the fact.

    There is an interesting mention in the Maronite Chronicle in relation with Muhammad, Mu'Awiya and (for me) Damascus  and John The Baptist ; that could explain why.
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