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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7920 - October 14, 2019, 10:17 AM

    Thread: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1181384892430606336.html
    Quote
    Only a few bilingual Arabic documents from the 7th century survive. Each of them are invaluable portals into history.

    PERF 558 is from 25 April, 643 CE, or Jumādā I, 22 AH.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7921 - October 14, 2019, 11:52 AM

    Quote
    The ʿIsāwiyya were a Jewish sect, followers of Abū ʿĪsā al-Iṣfahānī. They believed Jesus and Muḥammad were prophets of God, sent to the Jews & Ismailites, respectfully.


    This is Islam Wink

    Quote
    ʿIsāwiyya saw Islam and Christianity as valid religions


    Necessarily, as Christianity is comprehended as being a part of  ahl al kitab  by the readers of the Quran Wink

    Quote
    It seems that the sources agree that Abū ʿĪsā led a Jewish uprising, probably during the reign of ʿAbd al-Malik b. Marwān (Jewish source = al-Qirqisānī). Abū ʿIsā claimed to be a prophet, one the five messengers of the expected Messiah (al-masīḥ al-muntaẓar)


    Anthony (2012) has made an article (academia) on this :
    "Who was the Shepherd of Damascus? The Enigma of Jewish and Messianist Responses to the Islamic Conquests in Marwānid Syria and Mesopotamia"
    Quote
    Given their belief in God and Prophet Muḥammad, could the ʿIsāwiyya be considered Muslim?


    Haha! Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7922 - October 14, 2019, 12:20 PM


    Quote
    The ʿIsāwiyya were a Jewish sect, followers of Abū ʿĪsā al-Iṣfahānī. They believed Jesus and Muḥammad were prophets of God, sent to the Jews & Ismailites, respectfully.


    This is Islam Wink
    Quote
    ʿIsāwiyya saw Islam and Christianity as valid religions

    Necessarily, as Christianity is comprehended as being a part of  ahl al kitab  by the readers of the Quran Wink
    Quote
    It seems that the sources agree that Abū ʿĪsā led a Jewish uprising, probably during the reign of ʿAbd al-Malik b. Marwān (Jewish source = al-Qirqisānī). Abū ʿIsā claimed to be a prophet, one the five messengers of the expected Messiah (al-masīḥ al-muntaẓar)

    Anthony (2012) has made an article (academia) on this :
    "Who was the Shepherd of Damascus? The Enigma of Jewish and Messianist Responses to the Islamic Conquests in Marwānid Syria and Mesopotamia"
    Quote
    Given their belief in God and Prophet Muḥammad, could the ʿIsāwiyya be considered Muslim?

    Haha! Wink

    Altara.,   where did you get those highlighted words in Quotes of your post??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7923 - October 14, 2019, 01:25 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/11831011
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7924 - October 14, 2019, 01:37 PM



    Thanks, wonderful photos. This guy has learned to write towards 610/620 in a cursive that he has not invented. There is some dots here and there. This script is the Quranic one descending from the Zebed 512
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    and the Harran 568 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html
    All of this are very far from Zem Zem... Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7925 - October 14, 2019, 01:43 PM


    oh!  I see ...,   Ahab  of  Leiden ... The Persian

    ...................... Zem Zem... Wink



    Damn.. damn  life.,,, the more i think of Islam and the more i think of my past ...  it is all zem-zem watershed now., I need to reinvent myself and my faith ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7926 - October 14, 2019, 02:06 PM





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7927 - October 14, 2019, 02:15 PM


    hi zeca ...

    my goodness, Greek & Arabic together?? looks like wood ., 

    how old is that plaque I mean what year?  did it get dated??  where did you get that from ?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7928 - October 14, 2019, 02:24 PM

    From the twitter thread: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1181384892430606336.html

    Papyrus from year 22 as it says.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7929 - October 14, 2019, 04:35 PM

    From the twitter thread: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1181384892430606336.html

    Papyrus from year 22 as it says.

     that is interesting picture and I wonder why they(whoever started that twitter thread)) call it as  "Naqad Studies" .. I am under the impression that word "Naqad"  is an old word for hadith writings/sayings...

    Quote


    is that information published somewhere or is  it just floating around twitter?? .. Looks like they are Armenian twitter group..

    anymore information on those "Naqad Studies"  apart from twitter chat??  well let me drop those Papyrus pics to a save box...   If it is real, it is interesting stuff

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7930 - October 14, 2019, 05:35 PM

    It’s a well-known papyrus. I’ve seen it mentioned before. I think it might be the earliest known document using AH dating though I’m not sure of this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7931 - October 14, 2019, 05:47 PM

    It is.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7932 - October 14, 2019, 05:55 PM

    Quote
    It’s a well-known papyrus. I’ve seen it mentioned before. I think it might be the earliest known document using AH dating though I’m not sure of this.

    It is.



    Huh!??    what does that "It is"  mean dear Altara??., is that published in a peer reviewed journals?  or is it just floating around twitter and some websites??

    and and who owns /writes in to that   islamic-awareness.org   ??  Some  how these guys are completely hidden

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7933 - October 14, 2019, 06:27 PM

    It is the earliest known document attesting of the conquest of Egypt (643),and incidentally using a hitherto unknown new dating era.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7934 - October 14, 2019, 06:33 PM

    An academic article on it republished by Islamic Awareness: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/jones
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7935 - October 14, 2019, 06:47 PM

    An academic article on it republished by Islamic Awareness: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/jones


    Oh ! I see ..that is from HCW site.. 
    Quote
    [1] See, for example, Kosei Morimoto, "Taxation in Egypt under the Arab Conquest," Orient (Tokyo) 15 (1979), pp. 71-99, and The Fiscal Administration of Egypt in the Early Islamic Period (Kyoto, 1981), though the emphasis is on other documents. One might have expected something useful in Frazer's revision of Butler's Arab Conquest of Egypt (A.J. Butler, The Arab Conquest of Egypt, 2nd edition revised by P.M. Frazer, Oxford, 1978); but though Frazer's introductory notes have a reasonably good section on the papyrological evidence (pp. lxxvi-lxxxiii), PERF 558 is not dealt with.

    [2] Published in 1911. Caetani was aware of PERF 555, 556, 559 and 561.

    [3] P. Crone and M. Cook, Hagarism (Cambridge, 1977), p.157.

    [4] R. Hoyland, Seeing Islam As Others Saw It, Studies in Late Antiquity and Early Islam, 13 (Princeton, 1997), p. 688.

    [5] The two that I have seen are in works still under consideration for publication.

    [6] Corpus Papyrorum Archiducis Raineri III, Series Arabica I, Pt. 2, XXI-XXVI (Vienna, 1923-24).

    [7] A. Grohmann, "Aperçu de papyrologie arabe", Études de papyrologie, I, Société Royale Égyptienne de papyrologie (Cairo, 1932), pp.41-43 and plate IX.

    [8] See N. Abbott, The Rise of the North Arabic Script (Chicago, 1939), plate IV; A. Grohmann, From the World of Arabic Papyri (Cairo, 1952), pp. 113-115 and plate 11. Idem, Arabische Chronologie. Arabische Papyruskunde, 91 no.1 and plate 11.1. Handbuch der Orientalistik, Abt. l, Erg. Bd. II, 1 (Leiden/ Köln, 1966).

    [9] B. Gruendler, The Development of the Arabic Scripts, Harvard Semitic series, no.43 (Harvard, 1993).

    [10] The fullest discussions of the Greek term, of which there are variant spellings, are to be found in P. Crone and M. Cook, Hagarism, passim.

    [11] This papyrus is now housed in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin.

    [12] The Development of the Arabic Scripts, p. 135.

    [13] For detailed information on Byzantine chronology and in particular on the indiction cycles, see V. Grumel, La chronologie byzantine (Paris, 1958). I am grateful to Dr James Howard-Johnston of Corpus Christi College, Oxford, for drawing my attention to this invaluable work.

    [14] PERF 553 (January-February, 642), 564 (19th July, 642), 555 (26th December, 642), 554 (25th February, 643), 559 (1st June, 643), 561 (29th November, 643).

    [15] Caetani, Annali, 4, 674.


    well Islamic/Christian monotheistic  scriptures are Hidden in Dungeons ..  but what we have now in open is.,  Islam from DUMB HEADS OF MOSQUES ..  Roots of the tree are always hidden

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7936 - October 15, 2019, 05:40 AM

    It is the earliest known document attesting of the conquest of Egypt (643),and incidentally using a hitherto unknown new dating era.

    what does that mean?  Did they not date it properly? Off course there are always error bars as much as 20 to 50 years in those early dating techniques .  anyways ., let me add what they write  on that https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGUfTBuXoAElmJg.jpg  twitter page is

    Quote
    PERF 558 is from 25 April, 643 CE, or Jumādā I, 22 AH.

    Quote
    The document mentions ʿAbdullāh b. Jābir, who was commanding the Caliphate expeditionary force into Egypt.  PERF 558 is interesting in part because of the use of the Greek term Magarites μαγαριταις for the Mujahirūn مهاجرون, or "Emigrants."

    Quote
    Before using the term 'Muslims,' these religious converts used the term Al-Mujahirūn to identify themselves as those who emigrated from Mecca to Medina. Particularly fascinating is the use of diacritical dots on the letters ج، خ، ذ، ز، ش and ن. PERF 558 is one of several examples of written Arabic with vowelization in mid 7th century. Qur'ans would be produced without diacritics until the 8th century.


    Quote
    A little Christian cross marks the beginning of the Greek text, a Late Antique scribal convention. Both the document's writer (deacon Jean) and the receivers (Christophoros and Theodorakios) would have been Christian.


    Maintaining this convention in 7th century Egypt, while writing at the behest of Umar's conquering army, would have been a poignant expression of Christian identity. Note that the Arabic in the text is not punctuated by a cross, and likely written by a second, Muslim scribe.

    It is interesting how these guys  at that twitter page couple that     25 April, 643 CE, PERF 558  papyrus picture   to Mecca /Medina/rashidun calipha  Umar etc ..etc..

    well if that papyrus is truly from the year 643 CE,., then it means by that time Arabic language was well established in a written form  and  some of those  Arab Christians/Christian Arabs  were proficient in multiple languages  ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7937 - October 15, 2019, 12:47 PM

    Yeez - you might want to look at this dissertation on the Nessana papyri.

    Rachel Stroumsa - People and Identities in Nessana

    https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10161/619/D_Stroumsa_Rachel_a_200805.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
    Quote
    The first chapter is intended to provide a basis for further discussion by setting out the known networks of class and economics. The second chapter begins the examination of ethnicity, which is continued in the third chapter; but the second chapter concentrates on external definitions applied to the people of Nessana, and in particular on the difference between the attitude of the Byzantine Empire to the village and the attitude of the Umayyad Empire. Building on this ground, the third chapter tackles the issue of ethnicity to determine whether it was at all operative in Nessana, – that though ethnonyms were applied in various cases, these served more as markers of outsiders and were situational.

    Chapter four moves to the question of language use and linguistic identity, examining the linguistic divisions – the papyri. An examination of the evidence for Arabic interference within the Greek leads to the conclusion that Arabic was the vernacular, and that Greek was used both before and after the Muslim conquest for its connotations of power and imperial rule rather than as a marker of self identity. The conclusions reached in this chapter reprise the discussion of imperial identity and the questions of centralization first raised in chapter two. This return to previous threads continues in chapter five, which deals with the ties between Nessana and neighboring communities and local identities. The chapter concludes that the local village identity was indeed very strong and possibly the most relevant and frequently used form of self- identification. Overall, it appears that many of the categories we use in the modern world are not relevant in Nessana, and that in those cases where they are used, the usage implies something slightly different.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7938 - October 15, 2019, 01:46 PM

    Yeez - you might want to look at this dissertation on the Nessana papyri.

    Rachel Stroumsa - People and Identities in Nessana

    https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10161/619/D_Stroumsa_Rachel_a_200805.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

    Thanks zeca..,   I like scanning through Ph. D. thesis more than books ., Invariably they Ph. D. candidates do better job in scanning through the literature  related  to their  thesis ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7939 - October 15, 2019, 02:45 PM

    Yeez - you might want to look at this dissertation on the Nessana papyri.

    Rachel Stroumsa - People and Identities in Nessana

    https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10161/619/D_Stroumsa_Rachel_a_200805.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


    Indispensable.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7940 - October 15, 2019, 03:35 PM

    Indispensable.

    just curious Altara.. did you read this book??

    Damascus after the Muslim Conquest: Text and Image in Early Islam  by Nancy Khalek



    if you did .. what is your opinion?? Now Question  is ., Was there a real Muslim Conquest? or just a gradual shift of faith ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7941 - October 15, 2019, 04:04 PM

    I’d say the initial conquests may have involved a lot of negotiated settlements with local elites and not a lot of actual fighting. And talking about Muslims at the start sounds doubtful to me. It looks more like a gradual shift of faith among the new ruling group, followed by very gradual conversion in the wider population.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7942 - October 15, 2019, 04:15 PM

    I’d say the initial conquests may have involved a lot of negotiated settlements with local elites and not a lot of actual fighting. And talking about Muslims at the start sounds doubtful to me. It looks more like a gradual shift of faith among the new ruling group.


    when you say initial conquests.,

     What years are we talking dear zeca?
     Is it in that so-called formative years of Islam?
     Is that before the Umayyad Caliphate.. year 661??
    And was there any Islam before 661?
    Are the words like "Muslim, Islam, Muhammad...."  were they present say before the year 550 in the Arabic world ??

    so many questions run through the brain dear zeca.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7943 - October 15, 2019, 04:19 PM

    just curious Altara.. did you read this book??


    Nope.

    Quote
    Damascus after the Muslim Conquest: Text and Image in Early Islam  by Nancy Khalek

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    if you did .. what is your opinion?? Now Question  is ., Was there a real Muslim Conquest? or just a gradual shift of faith ?


    Arab take over political power of lands were they were already numerous, except Egypt. Conquest from the inside, then. They have built a house of prayer on the Temple Mount: it is the interesting fact and Gallez has an interesting insight about it. They were surely not "Muslims" as the narrative recounts it. Islam is a slow construction.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7944 - October 15, 2019, 04:50 PM

    woh... this is loaded ., let me dissect it
    1). Arab take over political power of lands were they were already numerous, except Egypt.

    2). Conquest from the inside, then. They have built a house of prayer on the Temple Mount: it is the interesting fact and Gallez has an interesting insight about it.

    3). They were surely not "Muslims" as the narrative recounts it. Islam is a slow construction.

    On that point 1., You mean Power shift from Roman/Roman Christianity to Arabs/Arab Christianity??

    on point 2 ... why use the word conquest??     house of prayer on the Temple Mount  ....  That was a Jewish Prayer house  right??.,  NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM

    on third point., "Islam is a slow construction...... Question is When did it start??.. Umayyad Caliphate??  before that?? or way after that?  It is interesting to look at early Islamic history of Egypt and The Islamization of Egypt ... I think these two are different things

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7945 - October 15, 2019, 04:55 PM

    Whoever Harms a Dhimmī I Shall Be His Foe on the Day of Judgment”: An Investigation into an Authentic Prophetic Tradition and Its Origins from the Covenants  PDF.. .  by Ahmed El-Wakil  ...  Religions 2019, 10(9), 516

    Quote
    Abstract: The ḥadīth, “whoever harms a dhimmī I shall be his foe on the Day of Judgment’, can be found as an end clause to covenants which the Prophet Muḥammad issued to Christian, Jewish, and Magian communities.

    Quote
    As it is highly unlikely for different non-Muslim communities to have forged this Prophetic statement at the end of their respective documents, this paper argues that this utterance is authentic and can be confidently traced back to the Prophet.


    This paper examines the occurrence of this statement as a ḥadīth in the Islamic literature and notes how it was dismissed by scholars of tradition who only accepted one of its variants. The paper then compares the rights granted to non-Muslims in the covenants to those conveyed in a number of ḥadīths and notes the discrepancies between early Islam’s official documents and the legal injunctions found in Muslim tradition.

     It argues that the ḥadīths on the rights of non-Muslims oftentimes reflect legal maxims of scholars living in the ‘Abbasīd era and that these were back-projected to the Prophet and his Companions using fictitious isnāds. Finally, this paper concludes by recommending the incorporation of the Prophet’s official decrees, which includes the covenants, within the fabric of Islamic law.


    well shifting sand dorms of early Islamic literature(Hadith) to find nuggets ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7946 - October 15, 2019, 05:30 PM

    woh... this is loaded ., let me dissect it On that point 1., You mean Power shift from Roman/Roman Christianity to

    Yes.

    Quote
    Arabs/Arab Christianity??


    Arab Christianity would have never built something on the Temple Mount Wink

    Quote
    on point 2 ... why use the word conquest?? 

     

    Because there is war: Yarmuk 636 Wink

    Quote
    house of prayer on the Temple Mount  ....  That was a Jewish Prayer house  right??., 


    At all. Arab Prayer house   Wink

    Quote
    NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM


    Sure. But all to see maybe with the Quran 2,127 (discussed this at lenght before with Marc... Wink )

    Quote
    on third point., "Islam is a slow construction...... Question is When did it start??

    ..

    For me, it starts with Quranic texts  Wink  If Gallez is right, it then starts before 636. Institutionally with Abd al Malik (d.705)


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7947 - October 15, 2019, 05:51 PM

    when you say initial conquests.,

     What years are we talking dear zeca?
     Is it in that so-called formative years of Islam?
     Is that before the Umayyad Caliphate.. year 661??


    By the time armies reached Spain or Transoxiana then maybe you’re looking at something more like Muslim conquests, though in Spain the history is unclear and it has its own problem with sources.

    Quote
    And was there any Islam before 661?


    I’d say not Islam as such.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7948 - October 15, 2019, 06:12 PM

    Conquest:

    We all read Pourshariati by now. She describes how the Arabs were initially just interested in the trade routes, leaving the rest of the administration alone.

    Why not for the West, the model of filling a vacuum without much fighting? If Romans before paid their (in this case Arab) client states at their empire's borders, it might be conceivable that at a certain moment the Romans shifted their empire's borders and let the former clients run the place?

    Look at what happened to the European colonies  after WW2. How will historians look at that in 500 years time? In a few decades, those colonial empires dissolved. What happened? How can one quantify this change in the minds of the coloniser and the colonized?

    At a certain time the Roman model in ME seemed finished, and other powers took over. Were Roman elites not interested anymore in keeping power? Did something change in their worldview/lifestyle?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7949 - October 15, 2019, 08:02 PM

    Quote
    Conquest:

    We all read Pourshariati by now. She describes how the Arabs were initially just interested in the trade routes, leaving the rest of the administration alone.


    This aspect is not the more important concerning the origin of the Quran. The more important is that she establishes that the traditional narrative is inexact regarding the dates of the war between Persians and Arabs. Moreover she does not dig more because our topic is not her field; she is very surprised by what she discovers since she believed to the traditional narrative like everybody. She's not competent in our field as she does not remark that before 628 it is clearly noted (sourced) that there is no peace any more between Arabs and Persians.

    Quote
    Quote
    Why not for the West, the model of filling a vacuum without much fighting?


    After 30 years of wars it has sufficed to the Arabs one battle (Yarmuk 636). Without this war (602-630) there would not have been any Arab victory, nor in the East, nor in the West. They would have been badly crushed.

    Quote
    Did something change in their world view/lifestyle?


    Justinian Plague has decimated the Roman Empire get a glance on Academia about this topic.There is one more catastrophic event, I let you discover what was it. Wink
     All of these has precipitated the Apocalyptic atmosphere.
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