Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 05:20 PM

New PM incoming
Today at 04:21 PM

Kashmir endgame
Today at 09:18 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
Yesterday at 11:39 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
Yesterday at 02:11 PM

Protests in Iraq
by zeca
Yesterday at 12:46 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
Yesterday at 06:04 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 13, 2019, 10:26 PM

The Armenian genocide a h...
by zeca
November 13, 2019, 06:49 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
November 12, 2019, 05:43 PM

Excellence and uniqueness
November 11, 2019, 12:56 PM

Upcoming movies
by zeca
November 10, 2019, 10:42 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 380628 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 262 263 264265 266 ... 278 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7890 - October 12, 2019, 07:17 PM

    So we have this complete Daniel story and the Quranic author makes a 6 verse long short story, comment or prayer on it.

    I seems like these verses were never meant to be a "stand alone" text.  Like the tradition needed the Sirah to make sense of the Quran, the Quran only makes sense paired with the Biblical texts.

    Altara, do you think the Quran was written with the purpose of being a holy book? Or has the Quran been repurposed? From a prayer book to a holy book?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7891 - October 12, 2019, 07:33 PM

    I seems like these verses were never meant to be a "stand alone" text.  Like the tradition needed the Sirah to make sense of the Quran, the Quran only makes sense paired with the Biblical texts.

    Altara, do you think the Quran was written with the purpose of being a holy book? Or has the Quran been repurposed? From a prayer book to a holy book?


    A related question might be when the Quran’s audience stopped considering biblical texts as part of their own scripture.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7892 - October 12, 2019, 08:08 PM

    So we have this complete Daniel story and the Quranic author makes a 6 verse long short story, comment or prayer on it.

    I seems like these verses were never meant to be a "stand alone" text.  Like the tradition needed the Sirah to make sense of the Quran, the Quran only makes sense paired with the Biblical texts.

    Altara, do you think the Quran was written with the purpose of being a holy book? Or has the Quran been repurposed? From a prayer book to a holy book?

     

    Quote
    A related question might be when the Quran’s audience stopped considering biblical texts as part of their own scripture.

    I pose these questions in my work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7893 - October 12, 2019, 08:41 PM

    Quote
    A related question might be when the Quran’s audience stopped considering biblical texts as part of their own scripture.


    1/ I think there was a gap of several decades in understanding. The Quran seemingly ended up on a shelf somewhere, being copied but not listened to.
     (on this, this interesting blog of Lindstedt who is a traditionist whenever possible, but apparently there are limits to self delusion https://blogs.helsinki.fi/hcasblog/2019/10/09/the-makings-of-early-islamic-identity/?fbclid=IwAR0_WQUKRP8Gt1b1KL7wEImaBc6F28-RhJsXqHd2E_ehzlJoD13kV2UKQnA)

    2/On the (mis)understanding of the Quran by later exegetes here Crone:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/524937721752322059/631915129310674987/Crone_Book_of_Watchers.pdf

    Crone gives examples of the importance of Enoch and the close connection that the Quran had with the stories of late Antiquity when the Quran got written. Also there is emphasis on the Iraq/Iran region connection what might point to what Altara looks at (I think, since your theory will be on the shelf for another few decades apparently, just as the Quran was Smiley, I can't really know )
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7894 - October 12, 2019, 08:44 PM

    Quote
    ........Altara, do you think the Quran was written with the purpose of being a holy book? Or has the Quran been repurposed? From a prayer book to a holy book?

    A related question might be when the Quran’s audience stopped considering biblical texts as part of their own scripture.


    mundi ..zeca asks questions and Altara says

    I pose these questions in my work.

    What?? .. You are copy pasting questions from the forum in your book??..

    only Questions?  no answers?? Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7895 - October 12, 2019, 08:48 PM

    ..................  there is emphasis on the Iraq/Iran region connection what might point to what Altara looks at (I think, since your theory will be on the shelf for another few decades apparently, just as the Quran was Smiley, I can't really know )

    mundi is putting spanners on a race car.,    mundi.. Are you trying Crash the car??.. Another Few decades to write something?? .. Yes what is the time line?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7896 - October 12, 2019, 08:57 PM

    when the Quran’s audience stopped considering biblical texts as part of their own scripture. ?

     Well when newly  built Islamic societies with Islamic rules from Sharia laws  are erected and enforced by the rulers then the converts stopped considering biblical texts  as part of their own scripture.

    one must realize Islam is the religion/faith of converts  with a fundamental belief

    "La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah"
    Muhammad(PBUH) is the last Prophet
    and Quran is last scripture

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7897 - October 12, 2019, 08:57 PM

    Temple mount/mosque, 3 early accounts in Morris'blog

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/the-temple-mount-mosque-in-an-early-georgian-source/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7898 - October 12, 2019, 11:05 PM


     Also there is emphasis on the Iraq/Iran region connection what might point to what Altara looks at (I think, since your theory will be on the shelf for another few decades apparently, just as the Quran was Smiley, I can't really know )

     Thinking hard
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7899 - October 12, 2019, 11:32 PM

    So we have this complete Daniel story and the Quranic author makes a 6 verse long short story, comment or prayer on it.


    The Silverstein idea is interesting. I did not read it yet,  hope he will post it on Academia.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7900 - October 13, 2019, 12:48 AM

    Silverstein :Etymologies and Origins: A Note of Caution

    https://www.academia.edu/30959183/Etymologies_and_Origins_A_Note_of_Caution
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7901 - October 13, 2019, 10:24 AM

    Thinking hard


    stop thinking.. start writing..

    well let me read  .Karl-Heinz work again...

    From muḥammad Jesus to Prophet of the Arabs  The Personalization of a Christological Epithet  ....Karl-Heinz Ohlig

    The Hidden Origins Of Islam .. edited by by Karl Heinz Ohlig and Gerd Puin ..2009

    9 years have passed .. that book should be read by every one  Muslims and Non-Muslims...


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7902 - October 13, 2019, 11:53 AM

    Stephennie Mulder - Review: Blair & Bloom, Rivers of Paradise

    https://www.academia.edu/1505555/Review_Blair_and_Bloom_Rivers_of_Paradise
    Quote
    But first, the trope. It goes something like this: Islam was founded in a region where the acquisition of water was a continuous struggle, and that fact led to certain responses and preoccupations within Islamic societies. An emphasis on water is part of the foundation of Islam itself, for Mecca was an oasis town on the desert caravan route that connected the Mediterranean world to the east, a city whose existence was inconceivable without a source of fresh water. Other cities in these dry climates also flourished first and foremost because of their proximity to canals, rivers, and oases. The Quran mentions water countless times, emphasizing its role in creation, using it as a metaphor for God’s benevolence and the defining feature of Paradise, where the righteous will reside in “gardens . . . beneath which rivers flow” (Q 9:72).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7903 - October 13, 2019, 12:57 PM

    Quote
    Mecca was an oasis town on the desert caravan route that connected the Mediterranean world to the east,


    Has Stephanie looked on the map? Has she missed all this scholarship from the past decades?

     Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7904 - October 13, 2019, 01:12 PM

    Has Stephanie looked on the map? Has she missed all this scholarship from the past decades?

     Huh?

    well dr. Stephennie Mulder  just reviewing the book



    better question to ask is "Did the authors of above book ever see Google Maps of middle east?"  and read anything about its geography of that time"??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7905 - October 13, 2019, 01:24 PM

    Has Stephanie looked on the map? Has she missed all this scholarship from the past decades?

     Huh?


    I think the passage I quoted is intended ironically.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7906 - October 13, 2019, 01:33 PM

    Quote
    I think the passage I quoted is intended ironically.


    Oups...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7907 - October 13, 2019, 01:46 PM

    Christians and others in the Umayyad State
    Quote from: Antoine Borrut and Fred Donner
    The papers in this volume were prepared for a conference entitled Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians in the Umayyad State, held in June 2011 at the University of Chicago. The goal of the conference was to address a simple question: just what role did non-Muslims play in the operations of the Umayyad state? It has always been clear that the Umayyad family (r. 41–132/661–750) governed populations in the rapidly expanding empire that were overwhelmingly composed of non-Muslims — mainly Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians — and the status of those non-Muslim communities under Umayyad rule and more broadly in early Islam has been discussed continuously for more than a century. It is impossible to do justice here to decades of scholarship devoted to non-Muslims in early Islam since it has become a field of its own and generated its own industry.1 Topics such as non-Muslims’ perceptions of emergent Islam, the legal status of non-Muslims under Islamic rule, theological debates between Muslims and non-Muslims, or the historiographical divide between Muslim and non-Muslim sources — to name but a few — have prompted important debates.2

    Recent scholarship suggests, however, that the lines of division between the various “religious communities” of the Late Antique and early Islamic Middle East were more blurred than long assumed. Reducing these communities to their theological dimensions proves problematic, while the definition of legal categories was certainly not a straightforward process.3 It has thus recently been shown how non-Muslims could resort to Islamic law when their interests were better served by it, rather than calling on their own communal jurisdictions.4 Moreover, religiously mixed families and intermarriages contributed to shape a much more complex image of societies, not fully bound by the lines dividing religious communities.5

    At the cultural level too, a sharp opposition between Muslims and non-Muslims should be avoided. Multilingualism was the norm, rather than the exception, among the learned.6 This is certainly best exemplified by the scholars engaged in the so-called translation movement from Syriac, Greek, and Pahlavī into Arabic that culminated in the early Abbasid period,7 but multilingualism was already the rule in Umayyad times as evidenced by many scholars or documents, such as Egyptian papyri and even some caliphal inscriptions.8

    More broadly, modern scholarship has also created a false dichotomy between “internal” (i.e., Muslim) and “external” (i.e., non-Muslim) sources, thus artificially separating sources along linguistic lines. Such an assumption is highly problematic given that non-Muslim scholars abounded at Muslim courts, and that many of them composed various scientific or historical works in some official capacities. The historiographical implications of this remark are quite imposing and invite us to rethink the categories we are traditionally using to approach early Islamic history and historiography.9

    The more specific question of non-Muslims within the early Islamic state has received, however, much less attention. Historians have duly acknowledged the prominence of non-Muslim local élites in the aftermath of the conquest in various capacities, ranging from tax collectors to clergymen and various powerbrokers.10 The new rulers co-opted the scribes and clerks of the former Sasanian and Byzantine empires to run their tax administration, since they lacked skilled personnel of their own who knew the terrain and the traditional procedures of revenue assessment and collection. These non-Muslim administrators, and their descendants (since such work tended to run in families), continued to serve in the Umayyad state for over a century, as is visible especially in the rich documentation offered by the Egyptian papyri.

    Quote from: Wadad al-Qadi
    The above shows that there is no doubt that non-Muslims of various faiths and ethnicities served in the Muslim armies during the conquests, in practically all of the lands these armies undertook expeditions, and the same applies to the Muslim fleets of Egypt, the East, and Africa. They served there either as individuals or as groups, although the latter was almost certainly more frequent and surely more effective; and they served in a variety of capacities, assisting the Muslims as couriers, guides, lookouts, spies, advisors, laborers, workmen, technicians, sailors, and mercenaries. While some were intentionally brought into the ranks of the Muslim armies by the Muslim government through its commanders in the field, or forced to serve as part of the compulsory public service requirement of the tribute, others came forward voluntarily to the aid of the Muslims for a variety of motives, ranging from fear to profit. They sometimes actually fought alongside the Muslims in battle, while in others they did not (as in the fleet), and they also were sometimes compensated for their work, while others they were not — the sources, all of them, do not allow for making an estimate about the ratio of one practice to the other. This compensation could come in the form of money or provisions — in one case, even women — and perhaps even some prestige; it could, however, come indirectly, especially in the form of exemption from paying the tribute.

    Most of the ways in which the non-Muslims aided the Muslim armies may have been improvised by the Muslims due to need, especially at the beginning of the conquests. For the non-Muslims, however, these ways were not that new, as they had been through them during the rule of the previous empires, especially as the non-Muslim sources point out. Indeed, our study has shown that there was a great deal that did not change for both governments and people of the Near East under the young Islamic empire. Just like the Byzantines and the Sasanians before them, the Muslims not only made use of the services of the local populations to support their military operations, employing them as guides, spies, and mercenaries, but also took them with them to battle to fight in their wars. Like them, too, they made non-Muslims help their military campaigns by drafting people into auxiliary works to promote their war effort under the legal tax cover of compulsory public service, and they moved whole populations from one place to another for defense and other purposes, manning posts on the frontiers with advance guards composed of indigenous, mostly unconverted, people. This is yet another facet of the continuity between the pre-Islamic and Islamic Near East.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7908 - October 13, 2019, 02:04 PM



    Podcast: Anthony Kaldellis on his book The Byzantine Republic: https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/2015/11/12/episode-86-the-byzantine-republic-with-anthony-kaldellis/

    This is interesting on how much the emperors depended on popular support from the population of Constantinople to get and keep power. Justinian was the exception in putting down revolt by massacring tens of thousands in the hippodrome, which puts Procopius’s hostility to Justinian and Theodora in the Secret History into context.

    It might be worth comparing the workings of the early caliphate in Damascus, which at the start could be considered as a kind of counter-empire based in another Roman city. If its attempts to take Constantinople had been successful then maybe later generations would have seen it as the legitimate Roman Empire, coming to power after a period of civil war that was hardly unprecedented. Recent scholarship has tended to reinterpret the barbarian migrations in the west in terms of conflict and civil war between Roman factions which might raise the question of whether comparisons can be made with events in the east. Initially the territories controlled by ‘barbarians’ in the west still looked quite Roman and this could also be said for the half of the empire now ruled from Damascus in the east. In the seventh century it would still have had more speakers of Greek than Arabic (presumably seeing themselves as Romans rather than ’Greeks’), cf Maria Mavroudi on Greek under the caliphate. It shouldn’t necessarily just be seen in terms of the Arab and Islamic identities that would develop out of it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7909 - October 13, 2019, 05:58 PM

    Robert Hoyland - Language and Identity: Arabic and Aramaic

    https://www.academia.edu/5640216/Language_and_Identity_Arabic_and_Aramaic
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7910 - October 13, 2019, 06:05 PM

    Arietta Papaconstantinou - Administering the early Islamic empire: insights from the papyri

    https://www.academia.edu/734660/_Administering_the_early_Islamic_empire_insights_from_the_papyri_in_Money_power_and_politics_in_early_Islamic_Syria_ed._John_Haldon_Farnham_2010_57-74
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7911 - October 13, 2019, 06:08 PM

    Arietta Papaconstantinou - “What remains behind”: Hellenism and romanitas in Christian Egypt after the Arab conquest

    https://www.academia.edu/736100/_What_remains_behind_Hellenism_and_romanitas_in_Christian_Egypt_after_the_Arab_conquest_in_From_Hellenism_to_Islam_cultural_and_linguistic_change_in_the_Roman_Near_East_ed._Hannah_Cotton_Robert_Hoyland_Jonathan_Price_and_David_Wasserstein_Cambridge_2009_447-66
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7912 - October 13, 2019, 06:15 PM

    Arietta Papaconstantinou - Between umma and dhimma. The Christians of the Middle East under the Umayyads

    https://www.academia.edu/734653/_Between_umma_and_dhimma._The_Christians_of_the_Middle_East_under_the_Umayyads_Annales_islamologiques_42_2008_127-56
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7913 - October 13, 2019, 10:43 PM

    Muhajirun (EI3)

    https://www.academia.edu/40559168/Muhajirun_EI3_?fs=rwbcr-h-1121063068

    Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7914 - October 13, 2019, 11:27 PM

    Rather vague...


    The stories the Quran quote did exist centuries before the quranic texts for most of them.

    Quote
    Reference(s)?


    He talks about the muslim tradition and different Codexes. Re-read him.
     
    Quote
    The order?


    Its sequencing would be more accurate.


    Quote
    I don't see the connection.Elaborate...


    Quote
    Different order of the Quranic texts. Different order means (for me...) that different groups had those texts and arrange them differently because there is no centralisation in the beginning. The centralisation will come later with the codex ones know today.


    Like I said, there might have been different people having not only different texts (as one can see in the Quran when multiple times an event is told many times in the book but told in a different way with different words and without really bringing anything new) but also because some events are only once mentionned in the Quran.

    So, in my view, it could be that those texts were collected and arranged but, as the collection didn't happen all at once, it might be kind of logical that arrangments of the suras did change as texts were collected. This is reflected in the Muslim tradition but of course not understood as muslims believe.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7915 - October 13, 2019, 11:29 PM

    A._Borrut_and_F._Donner_eds._Christians_and_Others_in_the_Early_Umayyad_State_Late_Antique_and_Medi eval_Islamic_Near-


    https://archive.org/details/christiansandothersintheumayyadstate_201909

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7916 - October 13, 2019, 11:33 PM


    I seems like these verses were never meant to be a "stand alone" text.  Like the tradition needed the Sirah to make sense of the Quran, the Quran only makes sense paired with the Biblical texts.


    One should exclude the other from being true  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7917 - October 14, 2019, 08:46 AM



    Thanks. I’ve edited my original link.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7918 - October 14, 2019, 09:01 AM

    The stories the Quran quote did exist centuries before the quranic texts for most of them.


    And so?These stories come from the sky rewritten?

    Quote
    He talks about the muslim tradition and different Codexes. Re-read him.


    It is about parts of the Quran which would be hadith?





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7919 - October 14, 2019, 10:07 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1183101112515256322
    Quote
    In class this week we read al-Juwaynī's (d. 1085) Kitāb al-irshād, a sophisticated kalām work full of gems. One tidbit in particular caught the attention of my students. al-Juwaynī speaks of a Jewish sect that believed in the prophethood of Muḥammad. Who were they? A mini-thread

  • Previous page 1 ... 262 263 264265 266 ... 278 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »