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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7830 - October 08, 2019, 09:06 PM

    Asceticism in the Quran: https://mobile.twitter.com/GuillaumeDye/status/1181621020811247624

    Preface: https://brill.com/view/journals/nu/66/5-6/article-p459_1.xml
    Quote
    In the final article, Dye shows the continued importance of redaction history and demonstrates how we may advantageously use this method in in-depth textual studies of the Qurʾan. Based on careful analysis of two Qurʾanic parallels, Q23:1–11 and Q70:22–35, Dye argues that through a complicated history of rewriting these two texts of instruction underwent a considerable change in meaning. At first they called their addressees to a pious and ascetic life, but through a process of rewriting, and thus reinterpretation, they came to tone down the original strong injunction to a life in continence. Parallel to Bonner’s article, Dye substantiates how careful textual studies of Qurʾanic asceticism may also be used to illuminate the background and development of the Qurʾan and early Islamic piety.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7831 - October 09, 2019, 12:50 AM

    Quote
    Dye argues that through a complicated history of rewriting


    I'm (really) afraid of this kind of  brilliant intellectual exercise especially when I read  "complicated". That asceticism be important is clear, it suffices to put aside the Muslim narrative (Mecca great city of commerce, etc)  and to read the text as such.
    It is conjectures as one does not have any attestation of this rewriting. And I'm rather sceptic about a future discovery which would allowed to establish it. History is not conjectures  nor intellectual exercises, it is sources, sources criticism, deduction from sources which have been criticized, etc. Without doubt a brilliant exercise  but which has little to do with the history of the emergence of the Quran as it remains a conjecture.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7832 - October 09, 2019, 05:52 AM

    different order rasm:

    The deviant order is different for the different manuscripts. So would this mean different folios being copied, those being distributed to different scribal workshops, getting some folios mixed up (but perfectly copied)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7833 - October 09, 2019, 08:20 AM

    Why not. It means that if there was an order in the composition of the Quran, nobody knew it. Therefore that the people who had it in after 630 had nothing to see with the authors. Therefore that the all narrative is inexact.;)Who's surprised?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7834 - October 09, 2019, 08:55 AM

    Quote
    Why not. It means that if there was an order in the composition of the Quran, nobody knew it. Therefore that the people who had it in after 630 had nothing to see with the authors


    Why? Maybe there was no order pre 630? So the copyists could only guess?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7835 - October 09, 2019, 10:42 AM

    Some thoughts from Guy Halsall on historiography...

    History as an Act of Faith: https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2019/03/history-as-act-of-faith.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7836 - October 09, 2019, 11:03 AM

    Of course. This indicates that before the codex exists, texts/Surah were separated. If not, why those different orders exists? The logical deduction (cf. Mark :" I did not say that" TM) is that  those text were separated and were reunited but their hypothetical order were not known. That is why one found codex with a different orders of texts/Surah.



    My personal assumption, based on the Quran itself of course, is that theere were texts owned by different people and at some stage someone decided to collect them into a single book ; therefore, there was no pre defined arrangement of suras but the current arrangment of suras was a process in itself within the collecting process.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7837 - October 09, 2019, 12:33 PM

    Quote
    Why? Maybe there was no order pre 630? So the copyists could only guess?


    1/ Possibly.
    2/ But considering the narrative, it seems curious that the people around the Prophet did not ask what was the order as there have had different times of Proclamation and/or did not compile it from a chronological point of view. It seems to be improbable (that they did not ask.) Yet the order of the Utmanic corpus is not chronological. And yet the narrative says that the order of the Utmanic corpus has been done by the Prophet himself.
    It did not prevent the Muslim historiographers to desperately searching the chronological order as they believed to the narrative which explain to them the existence of the Quran and that the Quran are proclamation in a lifetime, therefore necessarily chronological . They search with the narrative that they consider to be historically true. It is the sole explication they have about the existence of the Quranic corpus.
    Unfortunately it is not ... true. That is why they disagree about the chronology of the surah.
    Therefore, that there was different orders in manuscripts means that the narrative recounting the emergence of the text is inexact. That is my point here. For the rest Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7838 - October 09, 2019, 01:00 PM

    Some thoughts from Guy Halsall on historiography...

    History as an Act of Faith: https://600transformer.blogspot.com/2019/03/history-as-act-of-faith.html


    He is right on certain things . Almost all scholars believe that what the Quran says is true. They believe it when it says : 30- The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah
    And they start to search when Jews said that. They are great believers. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7839 - October 09, 2019, 01:04 PM

    He is right on certain things . Almost all scholars believe that what the Quran says is true. They believe it when it says : 30- The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah
    And they start to search when Jews said that. They are great believers. Wink

    sorry  you can not use the word "Scholars"  to "believers" and believers to Scholars    .. they are entirely different type of beasts

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7840 - October 09, 2019, 01:27 PM

    Yet it is the case, articles about the Uzair issues are numerous. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7841 - October 09, 2019, 03:17 PM

    Yet it is the case, articles about the Uzair issues are numerous. Wink

    well .. Quran uses lots of names for no good reason but to blame many  folks of that time ..Jews, Christians, Pagans to reinforce faith in its followers., It has tons of such verses to say .. There  is no God but God and god has no associates ..No sons... no wives.. no mothers..etc..etc..  and  it burps out same thing in that verse 9:30
    Quote
    The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syqscHg92vs

    for that foolish Scholars need to not write publications over publications  and waste their time., It is Ok if Islam preaching fools do that 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7842 - October 09, 2019, 09:36 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - The makings of early Islamic identity

    https://blogs.helsinki.fi/hcasblog/2019/10/09/the-makings-of-early-islamic-identity/?fbclid=IwAR0_WQUKRP8Gt1b1KL7wEImaBc6F28-RhJsXqHd2E_ehzlJoD13kV2UKQnA
    Quote
    During 2016–2019, Ilkka Lindstedt was a Fellow at the Helsinki Collegium for Advanced Studies. In this piece, he presents some results of his Collegium project “Early Islamic inscriptions as historical sources” and demonstrates that the development of a distinct Islamic identity was slower than what has commonly been thought in scholarship on early Islam.

    Quote
    To test Donner’s hypothesis, I conducted, during my Collegium Fellowship (2016–2019), a systematic analysis of early dated Islamic-era Arabic inscriptions engraved or painted on stone. These are a unique corpus of evidence, because it is

    a) produced by the members of the community of the believers, so it does not suffer from outsider stereotypes;
    b) produced by both elite and lay people;
    c) often absolutely dated by the writers;
    d) the inscriptions are religious in nature and hence proffer information on how the believers perceived and articulated their religiousness and religious identity.

    For a comprehensive examination of the available evidence, I collected the (around one hundred) published Arabic inscriptions dated to 640s–740s CE, a period when other sources are scarce. I reread, translated, and analyzed the inscriptions. My study will be published as an article entitled “Who Is in, Who Is out? Early Muslim Identity through Epigraphy and Theory” (Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 46, 2019). As my analytical framework, I used the social identity theory, promulgated in social psychology since the 1970s.

    The Arabic inscriptions, I submit, provide evidence corroborating Donner’s suggestion. If anything, the inscriptions suggest that the Islamic identity-formation process was slower than Donner put forward in his article, with identity negotiation and permeable borders being attested in the epigraphic texts well into the eighth century CE.

    To summarize my findings, the corpus of dated Arabic inscriptions attests indeterminate pious formulae up to the 690s CE, when the first instances of the emphasis on the Prophet Muhammad surface in the texts. In the 700s–720s, there are first mentions of specifically Muslim rites such as pilgrimage, prayer, and fasting. Moreover, it is in the 720s–730s when the words Muslims and Islam began to become consolidated as references to the in-group, supplanting the more ambivalent “believers.”

    In my article, I suggest that it is around these decades (720s–730s CE) when we should date the “parting of the ways.” That is to say, since that time most Muslims have categorized themselves as being separate from other religious identifications, such as Jews and Christians, though intergroup contact and influence naturally continued throughout the centuries.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7843 - October 09, 2019, 11:25 PM

    Slow because that did not exist before 630 contrary to what the narrative says. This slowness can be explained precisely by the fact that the entire history that the historiographers of the
     9th c. recount (and in which they believe because it gives them an explanation of the existence of the Quran),  is pure fantasy.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7844 - October 10, 2019, 12:26 AM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Critical Approaches to Pre-Islamic Arabia and Early Islam

    https://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/podcast/critical-approaches-to-pre-islamic-arabia-and-early-islam/
    Quote
    Given the way in which many introductory courses present the history of early Islam and pre-Islamic Arabia, we may be tempted to think that the historical facts were well established and the narrative uncontested. However, this is far from the case. What evidence do we actually have from this period, and how may it challenge the conventional narratives that have become canonised in sacred and academic histories? What misconceptions might be challenged by modern epigraphic work, or the application of Social Identity theories to ancient texts? And why might this matter for contemporary Islam, contemporary Islamic Studies, and the critical study of religion more broadly? Joining Chris to discuss these questions, is Dr Ilkka Lindstedt of the University of Helsinki.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnCncZiqFU
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7845 - October 10, 2019, 09:07 AM

    My personal assumption, based on the Quran itself of course, is that there were texts owned by different people and at some stage someone decided to collect them into a single book ; therefore, there was no pre defined arrangement of suras but the current arrangement of suras was a process in itself within the collecting process.


    My personal assumption, based on the Quran itself of course, is that there were texts


    Texts coming from the sky?

     
    Quote
    owned by different people


    Elaborate...

    Quote
    and at some stage someone decided to collect them into a single book ;
    but the current arrangement of suras was a process in itself within the collecting process.


    1/Therefore, "different people" have collected them in different codex, right?
    2/Because it is what one sees : different codex, different orders.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7846 - October 10, 2019, 09:14 AM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1105469232983298048
    Quote
    Thread : Diacritics in early Qur’ān manuscripts.
    1/6. I recently read : « The Hijazi script has no diacritical signs » (Mraizika, "Le Coran décrée"). I intend to show evidences against this theory and give a brief overview of practices of putting diacritics in early Qur’ān mss

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7847 - October 10, 2019, 11:45 AM

    PERF 558 (643) shows that, some diacritics were already in use. But in earliest Quranic Ms it is not a regular, formalized stuff.Each scribe do what he wants.
    orbi
    @kwo_vadis
    ·
    Mar 12
    Replying to
    @CellardEleonore
    Are there sufficient diacritics in the early manuscripts to take away the ambiguity of the rasm?
    Eléonore Cellard
    @CellardEleonore
    ·
    Mar 12
    For the hijazi mss, of course not. For the later stages, it is more explicit but there are still ambiguity
    Quote
    Ilkka Lindstedt - Critical Approaches to Pre-Islamic Arabia and Early Islam



    Each time it is the same circus. Were there any Christian in Mecca? First is there a "Mecca" as recounted by the narrative?Were there any Christian in Mecca region?
    No attestation.One knows that Christianity knows rather accurately where Christians were in Orient.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7848 - October 10, 2019, 12:40 PM

    PERF 558 (643) shows that, some diacritics were already in use. But in earliest Quranic Ms it is not a regular, formalized stuff.Each scribe do what he wants.
    orbi
    @kwo_vadis
    ·
    Mar 12
    Replying to
    @CellardEleonore
    Are there sufficient diacritics in the early manuscripts to take away the ambiguity of the rasm?
    Eléonore Cellard
    @CellardEleonore
    ·
    Mar 12
    For the hijazi mss, of course not. For the later stages, it is more explicit but there are still ambiguity

    Quote
    Each time it is the same circus. Were there any Christian in Mecca? First is there a "Mecca" as recounted by the narrative?Were there any Christian in Mecca region?
    No attestation.One knows that Christianity knows rather accurately where Christians were in Orient.


    well Dr. Eléonore Cellard  is supposed to be an expert of early Qur’ān manuscripts.. NOT Islam  and NOT what is there in Quran   dear Altara..

    So it makes no difference to Islamic history whether a word in Arabic language at a given time  had dot above or dot below in its alphabets .. She should only stick to evolution of Arabic language and  Arabic script and and on  early Quran manuscripts., She should talk less on  early  Islamic  history

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7849 - October 10, 2019, 01:28 PM

    Each time it is the same circus. ...............

    just curious on that Circus and the clowns in it....  did you by any chance read through this book  of Asma Hilali??



    The Sanaa Palimpsest: The Transmission of the Qurʾan in the First Centuries AH Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2017.

    *****************************************************

    Hadith and Authority

    https://www.films.com/ecTitleDetail.aspx?TitleID=116207

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twY80hvwvjQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6kBrTmF0y4

    my goodness gracious  ..LOOK AT THAT TOTAL LIES OF  Shabir Ally....  You can see the confusion in his face and how he is explaining,   why   some of those Sana Manuscripts were over written 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7850 - October 10, 2019, 03:26 PM

    Quote
    So it makes no difference to Islamic history whether a word in Arabic language at a given time had dot above or dot below in its alphabets


    Existence of dots and their use makes differences.
    Quote
    well Dr. Eléonore Cellard  is supposed to be an expert of early Qur’ān manuscripts.. NOT Islam  and NOT what is there in Quran   dear Altara..


    Of course.

    Quote
    did you by any chance read through this book  of Asma Hilali??


    Nope. Her main thesis about the Sanaa palimpsest is not really convincing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7851 - October 10, 2019, 03:30 PM

    Quote
    my goodness gracious  ..LOOK AT THAT TOTAL LIES OF  Shabir Ally....  You can see the confusion in his face and how he is explaining,   why   some of those Sana Manuscripts were over written 


    He tries to save what can be saved...as time goes by, all will be identified about the origin of the Quran, therefore "Islam"... Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7852 - October 10, 2019, 03:35 PM

    Altara - in your view what do we actually know about the history of seventh century Arabia? (that is the peninsula as opposed to Iraq, Palestine, Syria and neighbouring areas). I’m assuming that you would see Mecca and Yathrib/Medina as insignificant at this time so they don’t need any further mention. But what about Yemen, the rest of South Arabia, and the east coast? If we rule out the traditional narrative are there any other sources that can be used? Or can the traditional narrative still be used to extract something about the history? Are there any secure dates for when different areas came under ‘Arab’ rule? How significant was the role of soldiers recruited from Arabia in the wider conquests and do you think the conquests involved a significant migration of people out of Arabia (as opposed to Arabic speakers from Iraq, Palestine etc)?

    I’ve noticed before that accounts of the conquests don’t see the taking of Yemen, say, as requiring any real explanation although to me it doesn’t seem any less important than somewhere like Egypt. Or is this just an issue with a lack of sources?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7853 - October 10, 2019, 04:32 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1182285685383974915
    Quote
    Just read and really enjoyed Adam Silverstein's new article published in Der Islam, “Who are the Aṣḥāb al-Ukhdūd? Q 85:4‒10 in Near Eastern Context.”

    Quote
    His central argument is that the identification of “the Men of the Pit (aṣḥāb al-uḫdūd)” of Q. 85 with the Martyrs of Najran is wrong, even indefensible, when one takes a historical *and* eschatological reading of the qur'anic passage into account.

    Quote
    Rather, he argues, the aṣḥāb al-uḫdūd refers to Daniel 3 and the servants of King Nebuchadnezzar killed (qaṭṭil|קַטִּ֣ל; cf. qutila aṣḥābu 'l-uḫdūd in Q. 85:4) while throwing the three youths the flames of the fiery furnace after they refused to worship the king's idol.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/michael_pregill/status/1182343593408774144
    Quote
    I’m super sympathetic to this argument, and haven’t read the piece yet, but something that nags at me here: this is one more of the few “solid” historical references in the Quran down the drain, right? So is there any stable context indicated by the Quran at all?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7854 - October 10, 2019, 09:01 PM

    Altara


    Yes

     
    Quote
    - in your view what do we actually know about the history of seventh century Arabia? (that is the peninsula as opposed to Iraq, Palestine, Syria and neighbouring areas). I’m assuming that you would see Mecca and Yathrib/Medina as insignificant at this time so they don’t need any further mention. But what about Yemen, the rest of South Arabia, and the east coast?


    One knows (relatively) well Yemen (in which Najran is included), 5, 6th c. Yathrib is a step in caravan road in the 4th c. (Roman source). One knows the Nabatean/Roman area (1st-4th c.) Hegra- Dedan. One knows the East coast until Qatar where there are monasteries 5 (?) 6th c.With all of this, has to be considered the interaction of Persia, Roman Empire and Axum (Ethiopia) in those areas until the end of the 6th c.

    Quote
    If we rule out the traditional narrative are there any other sources that can be used?

     

    All the sources concerning the areas aforementioned (epigraphic, archaeologic and scribal)have to be examined to have a landscape of what's going on there before the 7th c.

    Quote
    Or can the traditional narrative still be used to extract something about the history?

    History before Islam recounted by the traditional narrative is shaped through the prism of the frame Mecca/Medina/Muhammad. Therefore it has to be always checked with the other sources available.

    Quote
    Are there any secure dates for when different areas came under ‘Arab’ rule?

     

    Nope.Difficult question. When (exactly) Yemen came under ‘Arab’ (Muslim) rule? One have only the traditional narrative. The East coast (for me...) was the first ruled.

    Quote
    How significant was the role of soldiers recruited from Arabia in the wider conquests and do you think the conquests involved a significant migration of people out of Arabia (as opposed to Arabic speakers from Iraq, Palestine etc)?


    Not very significant (for me...) in the beginning. But, once the Arabs ruled Iraq-Persia,Syria-Palestine, Egypt, it's seems rather plausible that (for me...) it drained the what little population there was in the peninsula outside the areas aforementioned. People had no reason to leave Yemen (in 630 considering that the Maarib issue was already settled; people were gone since a certain time) or the East coast.

    Quote
    I’ve noticed before that accounts of the conquests don’t see the taking of Yemen, say, as requiring any real explanation although to me it doesn’t seem any less important than somewhere like Egypt. Or is this just an issue with a lack of sources?


    Interesting remark.I didn't really look at the history of the conquest of Yemen. Maybe I should. Egypt was wealthier and a dominion of the Romans. This was not the case of Yemen. I have to see what Tabari says about the conquest.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7855 - October 10, 2019, 09:10 PM

    Thanks. On the conquest of Yemen I was thinking more of accounts by modern writers than the Muslim historians.

    I was intending to ask really about what we know about the history of Arabia during the seventh century, in the period of the conquests and afterwards, but I didn’t phrase it very well. I was wondering what we actually know about it if we assume there’s no Muhammad/Mecca/Medina and whether we only have the traditional narrative to work from.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7856 - October 10, 2019, 09:11 PM



    Quote
    This article seeks to contribute to our understanding of a short Qurʾānic passage, Q 85:4‒10, which concerns the fate of the enigmatic Aṣḥāb al-Ukhdūd. It is argued that the ‘eschatological’ and ‘historical’ readings of this passage, which have generally been taken to be mutually exclusive options for its interpretation, are both indispensable for a full contextualization of the verses in question. Furthermore, regarding the historical reading of the passage, it is argued that the verses refer to the events recorded in Daniel 3, rather than to the Martyrs of Najrān episode that most exegetes (and many modern scholars) opt for. Finally, a new etymology for the word Ukhdūd is proposed.


    Interesting.Wink Is this available somewhere?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7857 - October 10, 2019, 09:20 PM

    Thanks. On the conquest of Yemen I was thinking more of accounts by modern writers than the Muslim historians.


    Modern scholars draw from Muslim historians.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7858 - October 10, 2019, 09:37 PM

    Interesting.Wink Is this available somewhere?


    I think it’s stuck behind a paywall unfortunately.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7859 - October 10, 2019, 09:58 PM

    Thanks. On the conquest of Yemen I was thinking more of accounts by modern writers than the Muslim historians.

    I was intending to ask really about what we know about the history of Arabia during the seventh century, in the period of the conquests and afterwards, but I didn’t phrase it very well.


    For the peninsula, during the 7th c. and after, to my knowledge, one have only the Muslim sources of the 9th.For them, the peninsula of the 7th c. is Mecca/Kaba/Medina and nothing else. All is recounted with the prism of this frame like the past (before Mecca) will be recounted.
    Quote

    I was wondering what we actually know about it if we assume there’s no Muhammad/Mecca/Medina and whether we only have the traditional narrative to work from.


    What one knows, one knows it from the Muslim sources of the 9th. And as they cannot be checked...
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