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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7800 - October 06, 2019, 10:01 PM

    Some years ago, I might have thought (even if I'm not a connoisseur of the emergence of the Reformation), that the emergence of Islam via the Quran could have been grosso modo looked like it.Since there are different issues raised against the Church whose the Quran attests (more or less ambiguously). It is a coherent idea which have lurked in the field (I would be however unable to quote any scholarship...)
    I see several obstacles to this comparison that prevent (for me...) to consider it fruitful. The first one would be the specificity of the Quranic situation: emergence of a scripture staging the Biblical God and the issue of the form of the text itself.
    These points are far removed from what can be understood from what the Reform was, even if some allusions of the text allude to situations that will exist 10 c. later.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7801 - October 06, 2019, 10:02 PM

    I think he intended to say the east coast rather than west coast.


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7802 - October 06, 2019, 10:03 PM

    Altara,

    Where is the "West coast of the peninsula"?


    My fault, the East coast Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7803 - October 07, 2019, 07:08 AM

    Islam and Protestantism:

    What about comparison with the Mormons? The parallel seems obvious, no?

    Or Catharism?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7804 - October 07, 2019, 09:28 AM

    Quote
    What about comparison with the Mormons? The parallel seems obvious.Or Catharism?


    1/Yes it is.
    2/ Nope.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7805 - October 07, 2019, 12:34 PM



    Yes,

    Yes.Including the very fact that the Mecca/Kaba frame is historically untenable,and therefore has to be put aside, one gets that it is where there is a strong scribal culture where the texts have emerged. Those places are (very) well know in Orient : Syria-Palestine, Yemen, Iraq  (until Edessa) and the West coast of the peninsula.

    Quote
    It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts which therefore were embedded in a history of their origin to which scholars one way or another believe.


    when you say "Those texts"  .. which texts are you talking about dear Altara?? 

    you mean volumes of hadith along with   that sunnah  Islamic literature  such as " Sunnah Qawliyyah..........Sunnah Fiiliyyah   and Sunnah Taqririyyah"  which were created by Islamic jurists in 9th, 10th, 11th century?  or or DO YOU INCLUDE QURAN ALSO IN IT??


    Quote
    If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, "there fore that  "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form.""

    The  writers  of Quran....((that is experts in Arabic written language))  and the audience of Quran (( that is....  people also knew Arabic language ))  had access  and were   familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form??

    there you mean to say  ............these Quran writers and the audience knew Arabic script and language ... and..and also they knew other languages (such as ..Hebrew, Greek,Syriac and Latin.)  in which bible/ bible  stories  were published??.....

    correct me if understood your script wrong dear Altara...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7806 - October 07, 2019, 01:16 PM

    Read carefully.

    It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts (Quranic texts only) which therefore were embedded in a history (sira/hadith, etc) of their origin to which scholars (of today like mostly the former ones) one way or another believe.

    Quote
    The  writers  of Quran....((that is experts in Arabic written language))  and the audience of Quran (( that is....  people also knew Arabic language ))  had access  and were   familiar with canonical (or not) biblical scripture in a written form??


    Yes.

    Quote
    there you mean to say...these Quran writers knew other languages


    Yes.

    Quote
    and the audience knew Arabic script and language


    Necessarily.

    Quote
    ... and..and also they such as ..Hebrew, Greek,Syriac and Latin.)


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7807 - October 07, 2019, 01:45 PM

    Altara - do you think that Quranic texts would originally have been anonymous, without an attribution to an author (a human one at least), with a back story only developing later?

    Could presenting a text as God’s word be a reason not to attribute human authorship to it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7808 - October 07, 2019, 02:34 PM

    Bart Ehrman - Forged: Writing in The Name of God

    https://ia600501.us.archive.org/26/items/BartD.Ehrman-ForgedWritingInTheNameOfGod-WhyTheBiblesAuthors/Forged.pdf
    Quote
    The Christian religion came to be firmly rooted in truth claims, which were eventually embedded in highly ritualized formulations, such as the Nicene Creed. As a result, Christians from the very beginning needed to appeal to authorities for what they believed. Do you believe that this view is true instead of that one? What is your authority for saying so? The ultimate authority was God, of course. But the majority of Christians came to think that God did not speak the truth about what to believe directly to individuals. If he did, there would be enormous problems, as some could claim divine authority for what they taught and others could claim divine authority for the completely opposite teaching. Thus most Christians did not stress personal revelation to living individuals. Instead, they insisted that God had revealed his truth in earlier times through Christ to his apostles. The apostles at the beginning of the church were authorities who could be trusted. But when the apostles died out, where was one to go for an authority?

    One could claim—and many in fact did—that the leaders of the churches who were appointed by the apostles could pass along their teachings, so that these leaders had authority equal to God himself. God sent Jesus, who chose his apostles, who instructed their successors, who passed along the sacred teachings to ordinary Christians.2 Several problems with this view arose, however. For one thing, as churches multiplied, each of them could no longer claim to have as its leader someone who had known an apostle or even someone who knew someone who once knew an apostle. An even bigger problem was the fact that different leaders of churches, not to mention different Christians in their congregations, could claim they taught the apostolic truths. But these “truths” stood at odds with what other leaders and teachers said were the teachings of the apostles.

    How was one to get around these problems? The obvious answer presented itself early on in the Christian movement. One could know what the apostles taught through the writings they left behind. These authoritative authors produced authoritative teachings. So the authoritative truth could be found in the apostolic writings.3

    Even though this might sound like a perfect solution to the problem, the solution raised problems of its own. One involves a reality that early Christians may not have taken into account, but that scholars today are keenly aware of. Most of the apostles were illiterate and could not in fact write (discussed further in Chapter 2). They could not have left an authoritative writing if their souls depended on it. Another problem is that writings started to appear that claimed to be written by apostles, but that contained all sorts of bizarre and contradictory views. Gospels were in circulation that claimed to be written by Jesus’s disciples Peter, Philip, and Mary and his brothers Thomas and James. Letters appeared that were allegedly written by Paul (in addition to ones that he actually did write), Peter, and James. Apocalyptic writings describing the end of the world or the fate of souls in the afterlife appeared in the names of Jesus’s followers John, Peter, and Paul. Some writings emerged that claimed to be written by Jesus himself.

    In many instances, the authors of these writings could not actually have been who they claimed to be, as even the early Christians realized. The views found in these writings were often deemed “heretical” (i.e., they conveyed false teachings), they were at odds with one another, and they contradicted the teachings that had become standard within the church. But why would authors claim to be people they weren’t? Why would an author claim to be an apostle when he wasn’t? Why would an unknown figure write a book falsely calling himself Peter, Paul, James, Thomas, Philip, or even Jesus?

    The answer should seem fairly obvious. If your name was Jehoshaphat, and no one (other than, say, your parents and siblings) had any idea who you were, and you wanted to write an authoritative Gospel about the life and teachings of Jesus, an authoritative letter describing what Christians should believe or how they should live, or an inspired apocalypse describing in detail the fate of souls after death, you could not very well sign your own name to the book. No one would take the Gospel of Jehoshaphat seriously. If you wanted someone to read it, you called yourself Peter. Or Thomas. Or James. In other words, you lied about who you really were.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7809 - October 07, 2019, 03:30 PM

    Altara

    Yes

    Quote
    - do you think that Quranic texts would originally have been anonymous, without an attribution to an author (a human one at least), with a back story only developing later?


    Yes, it is possible.

    Quote
    Could presenting a text as God’s word be a reason not to attribute human authorship to it?


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7810 - October 07, 2019, 03:42 PM

    Read carefully.

    well I am trying to read information from your posts and and you are trying your best to hide the information  Cheesy

    Quote
    Quote
    It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts (Quranic texts only) which therefore were embedded in a history (sira/hadith, etc) of their origin to which scholars (of today like mostly the former ones) one way or another believe.


    Yes.

    Yes.

    Necessarily.

    Yes.

    Hmm....  there are so many questions on those ..yes..yes..yes.... but again.....and again  Cheesy... on that highlighted paragraph..
     
    **********************************************
    So.,    ........... IT IS IN YOUR VIEW. ., it is  justified, that the scholars of Islam past and present(MUSLIM & NON-MUSLIM SCHOLARS) have been  forced to couple Quranic texts  with sira/hadith, etc to analyze history of Islam.,  because there was no other way for them (SO CALLED SCHOLARS OF ISLAM) to separate  Quranic texts  from hadith & sira texts..................  

     And and that is the reason exploring origins of history of Islam  is a big mess ..
    ********************************************************

    did I read that paragraph correctly and carefully dear Altara??

    and other question .. Do you consider Quranic texts/manuscripts  before it became a book are different from the present book Quran??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7811 - October 07, 2019, 03:48 PM

    On Ehrman and Christian texts:

    The situation is Islam seems very different. Here there seems to be first the text, and the new religion built around it.

    In Christianity you first had the movement and with that came the need of authoritative texts in a later stage.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7812 - October 07, 2019, 03:53 PM

    Yes but what was the text coming out of? It wasn’t coming out of Islam as Islam didn’t exist at that point.

    If we’re assuming, for the moment, that Altara’s hypothesis is correct then who did the writers of Quranic texts originally attribute them to?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7813 - October 07, 2019, 03:55 PM

    Islam and Protestantism:

    What about comparison with the Mormons? The parallel seems obvious, no?

    Or Catharism?


    Hi mundi.,

    As an young 20/25 year old  guy given a chance..

    would you  prefer  to become a Mormon or Muslim guy  ..lol..  I like Mormonism better than Islamism  IF ALL WOMEN ARE EDUCATED GOES TO JOB  AND MAKES A LOTS OF MONEY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Pm5092a0c

    5 wives....at least  10k for month

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7814 - October 07, 2019, 03:56 PM

    On Ehrman and Christian texts:

    The situation is Islam seems very different. Here there seems to be first the text, and the new religion built around it.

    In Christianity you first had the movement and with that came the need of authoritative texts in a later stage.

    Bart Denton Ehrman HATES CHRISTIANITY ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7815 - October 07, 2019, 04:05 PM

    Yes but what was the texts coming out of? It wasn’t coming out of Islam as Islam didn’t exist at that point.

    It should be TEXTS .. not the text  present book..,

     and dear  zeca .. we must note here.,    Although Muslims  say Quran is word of Allah/god .. yadi..yadi... Now if I remove some 40 verses or so out of 6300 verses  from Quran  and and  give them the same book  to follow .,    the present Islam will be a dead end  and becomes nothing but early Syric Christianity .,

    The present day Islam uses very very little Quran.. THE PRESENT ISLAM  IS ALL HADITH, SIRAH AND SUNNAH  gibberish

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7816 - October 07, 2019, 04:52 PM

    Quote
    Yes but what was the text coming out of? It wasn’t coming out of Islam as Islam didn’t exist at that point.


    Plenty of new heresies or new ideas are developing all the time. I was checking on Catharism (which Altara says is not comparable to the islamic process...) and was surprised how ancient its routs were. Its ideology differs substantially from Christianity and Judaism but they clearly were inspired by it.

    It's roots seem to go back to 2-3 rd C AD to resurface in Middle Ages in Cologne and bloom in the Provence 12th C.

    For Islam there must have been a small community motivated to write the texts (heretical monks who wanted out?), and who had sufficient finances. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7817 - October 07, 2019, 07:24 PM

    Yeez:

    Quote
    Quote Zeca- in your view would the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form?



    Yes.Including the very fact that the Mecca/Kaba frame is historically untenable,and therefore has to be put aside, one gets that it is where there is a strong scribal culture where the texts have emerged. Those places are (very) well know in Orient : Syria-Palestine, Yemen, Iraq  (until Edessa) and the East coast of the peninsula.

    Quote
    Quote Zeca
    My impression is that there’s a widespread assumption that they didn’t [have access to canonical (or not)  in a written form]  but is this assumption justified?


    It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts (only Quran) which therefore were embedded in a history of their origin to which scholars one way or another believe.
    Very very important fact : If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, It is perfectly clear. Therefore that  "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."

    Quote
    So.,    ........... IT IS IN YOUR VIEW. ., it is  justified, that the scholars of Islam past and present(MUSLIM & NON-MUSLIM SCHOLARS) have been  forced to couple Quranic texts  with sira/hadith, etc to analyze history of Islam.,

    If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible,

    Quote
    because there was no other way for them (SO CALLED SCHOLARS OF ISLAM) to separate  Quranic texts  from hadith & sira texts..................  


    As there is no other way to prevent advertising to work in the brain of people.
    Quote
    And that is the reason exploring origins of history of Islam is a big mess ..


    Except for those who cannot be influenced. The main issue being that in Anglo saxon world main universities are private enterprises. They need cash.Add to that the politically correctness due to the heavy presence of Islam in western country, only those who are not under those influences and are competent (not Gibson, Marc et al.) can clean the mess. They will be despised and heavily rejected by the scholars (like Gallez is, but maybe less now almost 20 years after the publication of his thesis...)

    Quote
    did I read that paragraph correctly and carefully dear Altara??


    I clarified my thinking (read above).
    Quote
    and other question .. Do you consider Quranic texts/manuscripts  before it became a book are different from the present book Quran??


    It is, inter alia, a topic of my work. Wink


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7818 - October 07, 2019, 07:26 PM

    Yes but what was the text coming out of? It wasn’t coming out of Islam as Islam didn’t exist at that point.

    Logical rationale.

    Quote
    If we’re assuming, for the moment, that Altara’s hypothesis is correct then who did the writers of Quranic texts originally attribute them to?


    Elaborate...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7819 - October 07, 2019, 08:11 PM

    Elaborate...


    I’m only really saying here that, working on the assumption that there was no Muhammad to either write Quranic texts or to attribute Quranic texts to, then it leaves the question of how the authorship of the texts was originally understood, or intended to be understood by the people who wrote them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7820 - October 07, 2019, 09:20 PM

    Quote
    I’m only really saying here that, working on the assumption that there was no Muhammad to either write Quranic texts or to attribute Quranic texts to, then it leaves the question of how the authorship of the texts was originally understood, or intended to be understood by the people who wrote them.

    It is an interesting question to which I respond in the proposition I'm working on. This question should be, and I'm going to repeat it  (again), the first one. Why? Simply because there does not exist any  (archaeological, epigraphical or scribal) fact that validate the Muslim narrative about the emergence of the Quran as they narrate it. Nothing.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7821 - October 08, 2019, 12:39 AM

    Tom Holland, some general statements...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rolMUO2sGo
     
    Jay Smith  for an hour on Oct. 3rd, 2019 Wink

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDs-5ISIvUU
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7822 - October 08, 2019, 02:30 PM

    Yeez:

    well dear Altara.,  on this
    Quote
    Quote
    It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts (only Quran) which therefore were embedded in a history of their origin to which scholars one way or another believe.
    Very very important fact : If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, It is perfectly clear. Therefore that  "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."

    If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible,

    which  you already repeated four times., I still don't get it and I am not gong to bother you by dissecting it

     but about that CULT(ISLAM)  & QURAN TEXTS.,,

    what does Quran texts mean.,  there was no Quran.,  there was no book until the year 700 or so  Islam came first and then Quran gets published .,  those texts were not Quran texts..

    Considering timeline of Islam WITHOUT Prophet of Islam Muhammad and those four Caliphs  and staring Islam with Umayyad Caliphate  Mu'awiyah in the year 661

    Quote
    661:  Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
    662: Khawarij revolts.
    666: Raid of Sicily.
    670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
    672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
    674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
    677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
    682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
    683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
    684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
    685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
    686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
    687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
    691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
    692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
    695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
    700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.
    702: Ashath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Deir ul Jamira.
    705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph.
    711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    712: The Muslims advance in Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    713: Conquest of Multan.

    well by the year 713 .. half of the present Islamic world is already conquered .. YET  THERE WAS NO QURAN.

    So dear Altara.,   question is,   what is Quran texts that you are talking about have to do with Islam??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7823 - October 08, 2019, 04:07 PM

    Quote
    I still don't get it and I am not gong to bother you by dissecting it


    It is (yet) perfectly clear. Wink
    Quote
    what does Quran texts mean.,


    It means folios and not book.

    Quote
    there was no Quran.,  there was no book until the year 700 or so


    There was (for me...) Quranic texts (folios ) on which additions were made : 15/20% of the actual corpus. But one have no material attestation.
    Quote
    Islam came first and then Quran gets published


    I think not Wink
    Quote
    those texts were not Quran texts..


    They were; assembled (with additions) they will form the Quran.

    Quote
    661:  Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.

    Mu'awiyah is the leader of the Arabs of the West since 640. After Yarmuk (636) and Jerusalem (637/38). Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7824 - October 08, 2019, 06:46 PM

    It is (yet) perfectly clear. Wink

    well you are writing it  it must be clear for you

    Quote
    2).It means folios and not book.

    3). There was (for me...) Quranic texts (folios ) on which additions were made : 15/20% of the actual corpus. But one have no material attestation.

    4). I think not Wink

    5). They were; assembled (with additions) they will form the Quran.

    well I will not dwell more on those points 2 to 5  but  on "Muʿāwiyah ibn ʾAbī Sufyān"., the first  , 1st Umayyad Caliph..
    Quote
    6). Mu'awiyah is the leader of the Arabs of the West since 640. After Yarmuk (636) and Jerusalem (637/38). Wink


    So as you eliminated  Prophet  Muhammad .,  and all those Rashidun Caliphate .. Abu Bakr   (632–634).,  Umar (634–644).,  Uthman( 644–656) .. Ali (last  656–661)  and also eliminated Prophet's grand sons Hasan (661),.,   THE TWO FATHER IN-LAWS & TWO SON IN-LAWS of prophet of Islam that come  Islamic stories .,   And you jump start Islam from Mu'awiyah ., Usually In Islamic stories Muawiyah calipha  regime starts at the year 661 and ends at   680.,

    So do you  think there were those   Ridda wars.. WARS ON APOSTASY  in early Islam ?  and do you think Islam actually started with Mu'awiyah ?


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7825 - October 08, 2019, 07:05 PM

    Quote
    There was (for me...) Quranic texts (folios ) on which additions were made : 15/20% of the actual corpus. But one have no material attestation.


    Quranic corpus:

    Quite a lot of Surahs in the oldest manuscripts have a different Surah order. Would that fit into your theory Altara?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7826 - October 08, 2019, 07:53 PM

    Quote
    Quranic corpus:

    Quite a lot of Surahs in the oldest manuscripts have a different Surah order. Would that fit into your theory Altara?


    Of course. This indicates that before the codex exists, texts/Surah were separated. If not, why those different orders exists? The logical deduction (cf. Mark :" I did not say that" TM) is that  those text were separated and were reunited but their hypothetical order were not known. That is why one found codex with a different orders of texts/Surah.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7827 - October 08, 2019, 08:01 PM

    codex:

    so the rasm is perfectly copied but one of the Surah's is in the wrong order...Just to be clear.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7828 - October 08, 2019, 08:54 PM

    Quote
    So as you eliminated  Prophet  Muhammad .,


    Yes.
    Quote
    and all those Rashidun Caliphate ..


    Yes as Rashidun Caliphate but not necessarily as people having existed. This people ( Abu Bakr   (632–634).,  Umar (634–644).,  Uthman( 644–656) .. Ali (last  656–661))  will be dressed as "Rashidun Caliphate" by the Muslim narrative of the 9th c.

    Quote
    So do you  think there were those   Ridda wars.. WARS ON APOSTASY  in early Islam ?


    At all. Conflicts between Arabs did exist but after 630.Damascus west vs Iraq east.
    Quote
    and do you think Islam actually started with Mu'awiyah ?

    It is a (very) slow construction whose the public emergence starts with the building (637/8) of a house of prayer on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Which is the contrary of a Christian action. Exact contrary. For Christians,Temple Mount is a dump site. Those coming in Jerusalem are not (at all) Christians; none Christian heresy command to build something on the Temple Mount.  In Iraq with the Bishapur coin (685). House of prayer on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in 637/8 may attest that the leaders got some Quranic texts (not necessarily all).  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7829 - October 08, 2019, 09:03 PM

    codex:

    so the rasm is perfectly copied but one of the Surah's is in the wrong order...Just to be clear.


    For the rasm, scribal error can exist.Before the codex exists, texts/Surah were separated, different orders indicate it.
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