Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New PM incoming
Today at 12:13 AM

'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
by zeca
Yesterday at 11:39 PM

Iran uprising - is the en...
by zeca
Yesterday at 10:20 PM

Painted pious ladies
Yesterday at 09:03 PM

Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 08:08 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 07:48 PM

Kashmir endgame
Yesterday at 07:46 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:22 PM

Lebanon protests
by zeca
Yesterday at 01:21 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Yesterday at 01:15 PM

Life extension
Yesterday at 09:53 AM

The Armenian genocide a h...
by zeca
November 15, 2019, 07:55 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 382380 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 258 259 260261 262 ... 278 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7770 - October 05, 2019, 02:10 PM

    Quote
    reading that  Quran  . Ash-Shu'araa surah with some   227 verses   The Poets  gives some historical insight  and importance of poetry in Arabian peninsula


    I love/ like Arabic poetry Wink  Great great stuff.
    But oral poetry is not literature, it is not a characteristic of  a cultural literary society contrary to what Sinai can says.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7771 - October 05, 2019, 02:23 PM

    That it was "pre-Islamic Quran poetry"  was what Muslim polygraph have written down in the 9th c. is a conjecture. One does not knows it. One have no sources just to trust them. I do not (yawn...)
    Why? Simply because they are circumvented/hypnotised by the story of their "Prophet". And as the Quran speak of poetry...

    There is one or two occurrences of the name in the peninsula in other script than the Quranic one identified by Dost. I review the Dost dissertation in my work and deal with each of his affirmations.
     
    He highlighted those words of Wansbrough. The Quran book closure in the 9thc appears to be late as one have MS' (incomplete) from the beginning of the 8th .c (but it is still conjecture as one cannot date them precisely). Sinai says that the 9th c. Wansbrough' considering that is too late. He his right about this.
    ..............................
    Iraq (from the Gulf/East peninsula to Edessa) is of course the place where emerged Quranic texts.
    Not Western peninsula, neither the centre, Yemen, etc.


    well that is possible  .................. as it is well known  Edessa was the site of a famous battle between the Sasanian Empire and the Roman Empire  and  It fell to the Muslim conquest in 638, later  by Byzantium in 1031 and became the center of the Crusader state of the County of Edessa from 1098–1144. ......................

    I mean all that area was dominated by Arab Christianity/Arab Christians ... yet large number of people were speaking in Arabic as fluently as other languages  

    Quote
    Yemen has another cursive script. Wink
    Unless that there was a lost text written in the cursive yemeni script . It is possible Wink

    oops   that  980...990...  was silly mistake...

    Hmm.. Yemen has another cursive script??  Yemen ??   well in that way part of Quran  that has large number of OT & NT stories   could as well  was written in some where in Egypt with  100s of monstrosities  .. look at the list

    Quote


    Monastery of Saint Menas.
    St. Damiana Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Damietta)
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mit Damsis, Damietta)
    St. Menas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mariout, Alexandria)
    St. Mercurius Coptic Orthodox Nunnery - (Alexandria)
    Ennaton Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Dakahlia) - (uninhabited)
    Metanoia Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (East Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
    Oktikaidekaton Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
    Pempton Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mariout, Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
    St. Cyprius (Dair Qabriyus) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Northeast Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
    (# 600) Coptic Orthodox Monasteries - (In and outside the city of Alexandria) - (Destroyed in the 7th century)
    St. Menas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Abu Mena) - (Destroyed)
    Diocese of Wadi El Natrun

    Monastery of Saint Pishoy.
    Paromeos Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
    St. Macarius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
    St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
    Virgin Mary (El-Sourian) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Khatatba, Monufia)
    St. Thomas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Khatatba, Monufia)
    Armenian Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (uninhabited)
    St. John the Dwarf Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (uninhabited)
    St. Moses the Black Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (uninhabited)
    Diocese of Cairo

    Monastery of the Prophet Jeremiah.
    St. Anthony Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qimn al-Arus)
    St. Paul the Theban Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qimn al-Arus)
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Nunnery - (Coptic Cairo)
    St. Mercurius (Abu-Sefein) Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Coptic Cairo)
    St. Mercurius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Tammua)
    St. Menas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Fumm al-Khalig)
    St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Old Cairo)
    St. Samaan the Tanner Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Zabbaleen, Mokattam)
    St. Theodore the Oriental Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Haret Elroum)
    Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Haret Zuweila)
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Haret Zuweila)
    St. Barsoum El-Erian Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Monshat Naser, Helwan)
    Prophet Jeremiah Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Saqqara) - (uninhabited)
    St. Arsenius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi al-Tih) - (uninhabited)
    Diocese of Fayyum
    Archangel Gabriel Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Naqlun, Fayyum)
    Holy Virgin Mary (Deir al-Hammam) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Luhan, Fayyum)
    St. Macarius of Alexandria Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi Elrayan, Fayyum)
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Fayyum)
    Diocese of Beni Suef
    St. Samuel Coptic Orthodox Monastery
    Diocese of Eastern Desert

    Monastery of St. Anthony - (Eastern Desert).
    St. Anthony Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Eastern Desert)
    St. Paul the Anchorite Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Eastern Desert)
    St. Catherine Greek Orthodox Monastery - (Saint Catherine)
    Diocese of Minya & al-Ashmunein
    al-Sanquriya Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Oxyrhynchus)
    Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Minya)
    St. Fana Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qasr Hur)
    St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Deir el-Bersha, Mallawi)
    St. John (Abu Hinnis) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Ansena) - (uninhabited)
    Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Minya) - (uninhabited)
    Diocese of Asyut

    The Hanging Monastery - (Deir El-Mualaq).
    Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Deir el Ganadla, Asyut)
    Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Durunka)
    Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (El-Qusiya)
    The Hanging Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Deir El-Mualaq)
    St. Apollo at Bawit Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Asyut) - (uninhabited)
    Diocese of Sohag

    Monastery of St. Shenouda (Left) & Monastery of St. Karas (Right).
    Archangel Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
    Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Hawawish, Akhmim)
    St. George (Dair al-Hadid) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
    Coptic Orthodox Monastery of the Martyrs - (Akhmim)
    St. Pachomius the Martyr Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
    St. Pisada Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
    St. Thomas the Hermit Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
    St. Karas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Sohag)
    St. Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (as-Salamuni)
    St. Pishay Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Sohag)
    St. Shenouda The Archimandrite Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Sohag)
    Abouna Yassa Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Tima)
    The Seven Mountains Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Bir al-'Ain)
    Naga ed-Deir (ancient monastery excavation site near just north of Girga)
    Diocese of Qena

    Monastery of the Archangel Michael - (Qamula, Qena).
    Holy Cross Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Hagir Danfīq, Qena)
    St. Badaba Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Nag Hammadi, Qena)
    Archangel Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Naqada, Qena)
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Naqada, Qena)
    Archangel Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena)
    St. Andrews Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena)
    St. Pisentius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena)
    St. Victor Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena) - (uninhabited)
    Diocese of Luxor

    Monastery of St. Theodore the Warrior - (Luxor).
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mahrosa, Luxor)
    St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Riziqat, Luxor)
    Coptic Orthodox Monastery of the Martyrs - (Esna, Luxor)
    St. Matthew the Potter Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Esna, Luxor)
    St. Pachomius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (El-Shayeb, Luxor)
    St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Armant, Luxor)
    St. Theodore the Warrior Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Luxor)
    St. Wannas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Luxor)


    Look at all those monasteries and where they are now and How converts of Islam ....LOCALS....  change their complete history  & culture and their back ground


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7772 - October 05, 2019, 02:27 PM

    That it was "pre-Islamic Quran poetry"  was what Muslim polygraph have written down in the 9th c. is a conjecture. One does not knows it. One have no sources just to trust them. I do not (yawn...)
    Why? Simply because they are circumvented/hypnotised   .
      by the story of their "Prophet". And as the Quran speak of poetry..

    .........................

    Altara I completely agree to disagree with that part of your post .. It also tells me you have not read  that chapter of Quran "surah Ash-Shu'araa"  carefully

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7773 - October 05, 2019, 02:47 PM

    Quote
    Hmm.. Yemen has another cursive script??  Yemen ??  


    Yes Wink

    Quote
    well in that way part of Quran  that has large number of OT & NT stories could as well  was written in some where in Egypt with  100s of monstrosities  .. look at the list


    In Egypt at that time there was no Arab population. Hence no Arab scripts (see Al jallad for the numerous Arab script existing) used. The Copt script for the Copt language, and Greek script for the rest as in the all Orient under Roman rule.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7774 - October 05, 2019, 03:03 PM


    ..........In Egypt at that time there was no Arab population. Hence no Arab scripts ..................

    what was Arab population??  who was Arab at that time?? only people living in Saudi Arabia?? were there no Arabic speaking/writing population in Syria..Persia.. Iraq of that time??

    It appears 99% of folks who explore early Islamc history  believe that ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in arabic  and it was the first book and nothing else was written before quran in Arabic., 

     that is not believable for me dear Altara

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7775 - October 05, 2019, 03:32 PM

    Quote
    what was Arab population??

     

    Yeez one have already (at length) discussed of this question. I remember to have direct you toward some scholars (Fisher, etc) available in Academia . Read their work. 


    Quote
    who was Arab at that time?? only people living in Saudi Arabia??


    Nope.

    Quote
    were there Arab population in Syria-Palestine.


    Yes, imported by the Romans to counter those of
    Quote
    Iraq of that time

     vassals/friends/working for and campaigning with the Persians.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7776 - October 05, 2019, 03:53 PM



    Yeez one have already (at length) discussed of this question. I remember to have direct you toward
    1.  some scholars (Fisher, etc) available in Academia . Read their work. 


    2.  Yes, imported by the Romans to counter those of  vassals/friends/working for and campaigning with the Persians.

    well there is so much to read...  all right I will read.,   I guess you are talking about this one



     but you conveniently evaded important Question dear Altara... lol....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7777 - October 05, 2019, 04:15 PM

    C14 Dating Quranic manuscripts:


    I have a list of 5 manuscripts now for which I have a scientific reliable C14 dating of latest 650 (95%). The chances that all of them are of 650 is almost nihil. My guess is that around 630 the main corpus was as it is today (the rasm).

    All the weird verses Yeez made me look up can be found in one of these manuscripts (I looked them up on Corpus Coranicum). Some exceptions. The alexander story is missing (probably accidental, could still turn up). The word Mecca is also missing  Smiley. But I really think that is also just by chance.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7778 - October 05, 2019, 05:55 PM

    Quote
    It appears 99% of folks who explore early Islamc history  believe that ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in arabic  and it was the first book and nothing else was written before quran in Arabic.,
     that is not believable for me dear Altara


    It is not a question of belief, but of science.ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in Arabic , yes. There was no book, i.e. a literary  crafted work written down to our knowledge before it.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7779 - October 05, 2019, 08:14 PM

    Zeca would say it's bc of the Romans and Greeks which they preferred over the OT...


    To be more precise I’d say that early Christianity developed in the Greek speaking part of the Roman world through a Jewish sect opening itself up to converts without requiring them to follow Jewish law, with the converts soon coming to dominate. Legal monogamy was a deep seated part of Greek and Roman custom and society and it seems unremarkable to me that it was adopted by Christianity, given that early Christians were mainly Greek speaking subjects or citizens of the Roman empire. I think it would just have been a natural part of their world view. Anyway here’s an academic article that may be more useful than my thoughts: https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/060807.pdf

    wiki on Roman marriage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Rome

    Prenuptial agreement from Cairo Genizah: https://mobile.twitter.com/afzaque/status/1179350408671760384
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7780 - October 05, 2019, 09:37 PM

    Zeca,

    Quote
    Legal monogamy was a deep seated part of Greek and Roman custom and society and it seems unremarkable to me that it was adopted by Christianity, given that early Christians were mainly Greek speaking subjects or citizens of the Roman empire.


    Thought experiment, imagine the Christian holy book was the Quran, Christ was a polygamist and had concubines. Would Christianity have developed monogamy?

    Your linked article concludes:

    Quote
    Pauline Christianity may well have been monogamous because
    1/it evolved in a Greco-Roman context and
    2/not because of anything that was specific to this movement,
    3/ let alone its latently polygamous Jewish background.


    I can agree to 1/, Christianity is monogamous  bc of the Greco/Roman head start. But the statement that follows under 2/, that nothing specific to the movement contributed (seen my above thought experiment) is imo a stretch.

    Paul was a Jew, not a Greco/Roman who had a "deep seated"leaning towards monogamy. He disconnected himself from Jewish law (read here more narrowly polygamy) under influence of the newly emerging ideology that was Christianity.

    So where does Christian ideology come in? The author of your article mentions
    1/ Greco/Roman custom
    2/ the movement (Christianity) that apparently contributed NOTHING
    3/ Jewish background

    I don't think this is a fair representation. We have here 3 interacting ideologies. Greco/Roman-Christianity- Judaism. Apparently number 1 and number 3 has agency. But number 2, Christianity is apparently a void.

    Weird reasoning.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7781 - October 05, 2019, 10:29 PM

    Quote
    It also tells me you have not read  that chapter of Quran "surah Ash-Shu'araa"  carefully "surah Ash-Shu'araa"  carefully


    Hahaha!

    An exceptional well crafted piece of work on which I have passed many hours, days, and I think almost two months Wink.
    Especially this : "

    -224- And the Poets, it is those straying in Evil, who follow them:
    -225- Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?
    -226- And that they say what they practise not?"

    Haha, hahaha, hahahaha! (ad infinitum...) Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7782 - October 06, 2019, 04:04 AM

    1.  It is not a question of belief, but of science.

    2. ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in Arabic , yes. There was no book, i.e. a literary  crafted work written down to our knowledge before it.


    1_No..no...noooo., Science doesn't work like that dear Alltara .,    Science works with probabilities

    2_ I am not talking about a book ... I am talking about Poems, prose, literature .....  some Arabic document  ..  .......evolution of script,.........and written language.,   THEY MUST HAVE BEEN WRITTEN   BEFORE SOME ONE GETS A BOOK OUT OF A LANGUAGE.    for that matter any language ..not just Arabic or Quran  ..  Moreover Converts of Islam are notorious burning books .burning anything and everything that Questions Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7783 - October 06, 2019, 04:08 AM

    Hahaha!

    An exceptional well crafted piece of work on which I have passed many hours, days, and I think almost two months Wink.
    Especially this : "

    -224- And the Poets, it is those straying in Evil, who follow them:
    -225- Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?
    -226- And that they say what they practise not?"

    Haha, hahaha, hahahaha! (ad infinitum...) Wink


     yes.. the book is well crafted .,  much of the book .. whole book is well crafted (IF WE REMOVE ADDED JUNK FROM IT)

    No..no.. you have not read it...  what does whole chapter says?  in fact in that chapter there is some real history in it  ., read it again ., I will read it for you in this folder ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7784 - October 06, 2019, 10:10 AM

    1/
    Quote
    _ I am not talking about a book ..


    2
    Quote
    /I am talking about Poems, prose, literature .....  some Arabic document


    There is no literary document. Maybe there was only administrative ones. And one did not find them. It is therefore a conjecture.

    No Poems, prose, literature written in papyrus or anything else before the Quran. There is nothing. Arabs were semi oral culture. Their scripts were too defective. Moreover that is why they have completed their script after that the rasm be appeared because the corpus had to be deciphered and completed and readable to many people.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7785 - October 06, 2019, 10:36 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Moreover that is why they have completed their script after that the rasm be appeared because the corpus had to be deciphered and completed and readable to many people.


    How do you know that? There are very early Arabic papyri with diacriticals. But there are no pre-islamic papyri found. But they must have existed...

    I suggested that Arabic might have been used pre-islam by traders as a kind of secret script (like Hebrew was sometimes used). Speculation of course...What is your theory for the conservation of the arabic script over the centuries?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7786 - October 06, 2019, 10:37 AM

    Quote
    No..no.. you have not read it...  what does whole chapter says?  


    It says as usual in a different way the same thing than the other sura. Wink
    When you says "It's a beautiful day" it means exactly the same thing as " The sky is blue".
    Ha, haha, hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum). But it appears to you as different. But it is not, it is exactly the same meaning . (Hahaha, etc) And you do not get the trick. Wink (Hahaha, etc)

    Quote
    in fact in that chapter there is some real history in it  ., read it again ., I will read it for you in this folder ...


    There is no clear reference to a precise historical event in the Quran.
    Clear and precise.
    It is normal as the authors do not want to be pinpointed.
    The reference to the Persian war in Q 30 is not clear and not precise : the conflict last since 224 : hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7787 - October 06, 2019, 10:49 AM

    Altara,

    Yes,

    Quote
    How do you know that?


    Know what?

    Quote
    There are very early Arabic papyri with diacriticals.


    So what? Not all diacriticals, like the PERF 558 which is an administrative document . Not literary.

    Quote
    But there are no pre-islamic papyri found.


    Quote
    But they must have existed...


    Yes administrative Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7788 - October 06, 2019, 10:56 AM

    Thread on Adam and Iblis in the Quran:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1179186042622091264

    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1179769378268692480
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7789 - October 06, 2019, 11:26 AM

    Thread on reconstruction recitation of the Uthmanic Quran :

    https://twitter.com/azforeman/status/1180046220229787648


    Seems this recitation was quite different from the later developed recitation in Classical Arabic.

    So although the rasm has been meticulously preserved, the reading/dialect was clearly not. Is this another indication  that the book was kept mainly on the shelf for decades? Together with earliest attestation of Dome of the Rock in 685, this is quite bizar...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7790 - October 06, 2019, 12:02 PM

    Thread on Adam and Iblis in the Quran:


    Well...

    Quote
    The Qurʾan often recasts biblical lore in a new light

    . Nihi nove sub sole here (yawn...)

    Quote
    Perhaps nowhere is this for visible than in its 7 (!) retellings of the creation of Adam and the fall of Iblīs


    What conclusions does he draw from it?
    Obviously he's not interested in that. He is more interested to be a mufassir.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7791 - October 06, 2019, 01:04 PM

    Altara - in your view would the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form? My impression is that there’s a widespread assumption that they didn’t but is this assumption justified?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7792 - October 06, 2019, 02:08 PM

    It says as usual in a different way the same thing than the other sura. Wink
    When you says "It's a beautiful day" it means exactly the same thing as " The sky is blue".
    Ha, haha, hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum). But it appears to you as different. But it is not, it is exactly the same meaning . (Hahaha, etc) And you do not get the trick. Wink (Hahaha, etc)

    Altara it is true every surah that have more than 20 or 30 verses says same thing, have same gist , have same theme ..   but verses like 

    Quote
    sky is blue
    flies have wings
    Glory be to allah
    allah gave water ..allah gave air..
    allah gave life .allah gave bones
    allah gave eyes allah gave ass
    those who don't follow Islam are Deaf, dumb   and  blind

     are general verses  that  could be put in to any book.,    I  am not talking about such polemic nonsense verses that are filled pages and pages of Quran ., neither I am talking about those tons of bible stories that are in it dear Altara

    I am talking verses in Quran, that are related to the people /real events during the time of Quran writing.. let me see whether you can figure out verses   please read that surah Al-Shura  (THE POETS)  again .  here I wrote about it in this very forum..

    Quote


    all those posts are about that Surah.. poets... please read it..

    Quote
    There is no clear reference to a precise historical event in the Quran.
    Clear and precise.

    It is normal as the authors do not want to be pinpointed.
    The reference to the Persian war in Q 30 is not clear and not precise : the conflict last since 224 : hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum).

       Off course  there is NO CLEAR PRECISE HISTORY in quran on anything., Forget about that Persian_Roman war in the east., .,....  If it is there ,  you and many like you  would not have job...  Cheesy  ..,  that  is also true to many religious so-called scriptures...including bible.   

    And ..and what is surprising about that war is  those  literary written languages which had scripts & writers such as roman, Syrian  and Persian that were present during that time also did not  write any historical manuscripts  about that war ., Or if it was written and was present.,  much of it/everything of it is lost....burned and buried...

    Again when I say History in Quran or extracting history from Quran verses., I am talking about verses that relates to events of its time..  say from year 600 to 700 or 600-800..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7793 - October 06, 2019, 02:25 PM

    1/
    2
    There is no literary document. Maybe there was only administrative ones. And one did not find them. It is therefore a conjecture.

    No Poems, prose, literature written in papyrus or anything else before the Quran. There is nothing. Arabs were semi oral culture. Their scripts were too defective.  Moreover that is why they have completed their script after that the rasm be appeared because the corpus had to be deciphered and completed and readable to many people.


    The fact you say., that there may be some administrative document in Arabic  means there must be similar documents that are NOT related to Administration  but poems and prose ..stories ..  whatever.,    It is different question to figure out why  so far  people in 20th/21st century could not find anything concrete.,   .

    As far as Quranic rasm .. Quran Bernard Shaw style of chi-chat book is concerned..,  true such books are not there ., To say nothing in Arabic was written before this book...

    Sorry I agree to disagree with you 

    Quote
    Arabs were semi oral culture. Their scripts were too defective.

     that is interesting .. by that what you are saying indirectly is .. QURAN WAS NOT WRITTEN BY ARAB FOLKS ., may be it is true ., or may be Arab  nomads in desert might have had that semi oral culture., But those who are in touch with Persians, Syrian Christians or Romans .. must have learned something to make Arabic language as   script oriented language   and must have written something before Quran.

    In fact,  I say before this book  Quran.,..... ARAB CHRISTIANS or THOSE WHO CONVERTED IN TO CHRISTIANITY BEFORE ISLAM,  MUST HAVE WRITTEN/TRANSLATED  BIBLE STORIES IN TO ARABIC  IN WRITTEN SCRIPT..

    So in many respects I question your thought process  of  "THAT QURAN WAS THE FIRST ARABIC MANUSCRIPT and nothing was there in Arabic script before that ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7794 - October 06, 2019, 02:50 PM

    Altara

     

    Yes,

    Quote
    - in your view would the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form?


    Yes.Including the very fact that the Mecca/Kaba frame is historically untenable,and therefore has to be put aside, one gets that it is where there is a strong scribal culture where the texts have emerged. Those places are (very) well know in Orient : Syria-Palestine, Yemen, Iraq  (until Edessa) and the West coast of the peninsula.

    Quote
    My impression is that there’s a widespread assumption that they didn’t but is this assumption justified?


    It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts which therefore were embedded in a history of their origin to which scholars one way or another believe.
    If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, there fore that  "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7795 - October 06, 2019, 03:37 PM

    ...............................
    If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, there fore that  "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."


    In what  language those original writers  of Quran  had access and  had been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form  dear Altara??

    Arabic?? Greek??  Roman? Syrain?? or in some form of Hebrew??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7796 - October 06, 2019, 04:12 PM

    Quote
    In what  language those original writers  of Quran  had access and  had been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form  dear Altara??Arabic??


    I (really) do not think so. One have none attestation of this.

    Quote
    Greek??  Roman? Syrain?? or in some form of Hebrew


    Canonical (or not) biblical scripture was in Hebrew, Greek,Syriac and Latin.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7797 - October 06, 2019, 06:47 PM



    Yes,

    Yes.Including the very fact that the Mecca/Kaba frame is historically untenable,and therefore has to be put aside, one gets that it is where there is a strong scribal culture where the texts have emerged. Those places are (very) well know in Orient : Syria-Palestine, Yemen, Iraq  (until Edessa) and the West coast of the peninsula.

    It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts which therefore were embedded in a history of their origin to which scholars one way or another believe.
    If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, there fore that  "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."



    Altara, thanks for the reply. Would this make the thinking of the early quranic community comparable, in a way, to some of the thinking in the reformation in Europe - i.e. looking at scripture and failing to find a justification there for existing church structures, practices and doctrines, rather than not knowing about or understanding them?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7798 - October 06, 2019, 07:45 PM

    Altara,

    Where is the "West coast of the peninsula"?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7799 - October 06, 2019, 07:50 PM

    I think he intended to say the east coast rather than west coast.
  • Previous page 1 ... 258 259 260261 262 ... 278 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »