Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #7620 - September 21, 2019, 12:16 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 20, 2019, 06:17 PM
Pourisharia showed that the Sasanian empire was multi-religious. Profound heresies like proto-Islam would have found a better climate to develop in the Sasanian empire than in the Byzantine empire.

Yes, the intuition of Wansbrough.

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But the script and content (see Dye) point to a Western Palestinian Christianity.

1/Precisely he makes intervene people convert/ hired by the Arabs elite to write some part of the Quranic corpus (Q 19: 1-33) regarding what he thought being related to the Kathisma which was a big pilgrimage in Palestine.

2/ He thinks that this passage is a text of convergence toward Christianity.

3/ Likely that 34-40 is a late interpolation because it is aggressive toward Christianity whereas in 1-33 the text converges to it.

1/The Quran is not (only) Q 19: 1-33.Can one says the same thing for other parts of the text? And which ones?
2/ I did not know that Jesus was a simple "prophet" (as tells the Quranic passage of 1-33) in the teaching of what will become mainstream Christianity in the 2, 3,4,5,6,7th c. (until now). It cannot be a "convergence" whereas it is the contrary creed of Christianity, as one can say that the Quran do not speak of the Christian view of Jesus in the 1st c. The portrait of Jesus in 1-33 is the Quranic one : he is a mere man, an instrument of God who does things by Him. Like all the prophet depicted in the Quranic texts.The contrary of the Christianity creed.
3/ 34-40 is of the same nature of some others statements but different in intensity, that's all.
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So did the elite form by the contact between the Sasanian and Roman Arabs (Von Sivers describes such a scenario if I remember well)?

You sure it is what says von Sivers ?
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Reply #7621 - September 21, 2019, 01:15 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 21, 2019, 09:06 AM
Von Sivers:

I asked this before, havent found the answer yet... Von Sivers says that in 622 the Arabic Kingdom was declared. This is mentioned in Christian sources? Does anyone have a reference to this? Which Christian sources?

Sivers :

On the basis of the preceding discussion in this essay, two tentative conclusions can be drawn concerning the rise of the Umayyad Arab kingdom and the rise of Islam. First, the kingdom arose in the years after 622, after the northern Arabs had gained their freedom from the Sasanid Empire, embroiled in its final showdown with Rome. Their vassal kings had already been dismissed a while earlier when the emperor and shah wanted to have free reign in their respective territories in eastern Syria and northern Arabia. Whether the years around 622 can be described as the active time of the religious guide and instructor named Muhammad depends on further study concerning the reliability of Bar Penkaye and other sources from the seventh century. What can be definitely concluded is that after an internal conflict between western and eastern Arabs around 650 Mu`awiya emerged as king in the free Arab lands of Syria and Iraq as well as the conquered lands of Iran and Egypt. Mu`awiya considered himself a Christian king, as evidenced by the inscription of the baths of Gadara in northern Syria. The inscription, identifying Mu`awiya as its sponsor, commemorates the completion of the bath’s restoration. It shows a cross and bears the date of 42 “according to the era of the Arabs.” To my knowledge, this is the earliest documentation of the Arab calendar by an Arab, a calendar which is attested to later about a dozen times in mostly Nestorian texts. Unfortunately nothing else can be said about Mu`awiya’s Christianity, although it is safe to conclude from his use of the calendar that he must have emphasized the Arabness of his faith, as distinct from that of Monophysite and Nestorian Christians as well as Jews.
Second, when the easterner `Abd al-Malik succeeded Yazid following the second conflict between the western and eastern Arabs the new king articulated a Christology that bore a close resemblance to Adoptionism (bearing Paulician hues?). Adoptionism, as I hope to have demonstrated, was by no means a dead version of Christianity in the mid and late 600s but had existed continuously in the northern Fertile Crescent, growing out of Judeo-Christianity prior to Nicaea when Jesus was still both a Servant and a Son.

Christology and Prophetology in the early Umayyad Arab Empire
Peter von Sivers, Department of History, University of Utah

Published in Markus Groß and Karl-Heinz Ohlig, eds., Die Entstehung einer Weltreligion III. Die heilige Stadt Mekka – eine literarische Fiktion, Inârah, Schriften zur frühen Islamgeschichte und zum Koran, 7 (Berlin: Verlag Hans Schiler, 2014), 255-285.

Interesting. But!
Quote
Mu`awiya emerged as king in the free Arab lands of Syria and Iraq as well as the conquered lands of Iran and Egypt. Mu`awiya considered himself a Christian king, as evidenced by the inscription of the baths of Gadara in northern Syria.

"Christian" built on the Temple Mount when they arrive in 637
Why the Romans did not did not do it before, at once the Empire became Christian?

The baths of Gadara (or Arabic coins minted with crosses) is not sufficient to say that he is Christian.Especially since that Mu`awiya wage war vs Constantinople. In 637 Christian Arabs built on the Temple Mount? The Christian Mu`awiya fight Christians later until Constantinople (664/65)
I'm fear that...
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Reply #7622 - September 21, 2019, 06:08 PM

To this, one could add a passage of John bar Penkaye’s Rēš Mellē (ca. 686-7 Ad) which is briefly mentioned by Shoemaker (p. 211), and which speaks of Muḥammad as being the “sons of Hagar’s” (bnay Hagar) or Hagarenes’ “guide” (mhadyōnō).2 It is worth mentioning that instead of translating this Syriac word as merely a “guide”, one can wonder if what we have here is not a calque of the Arabic word mahdī as meaning the “eschatological Savior” who is expected to come at the end of time.

https://www.academia.edu/37046142/Stephen_Shoemaker_The_Death_of_a_Prophet._The_End_of_Muhammads_Life_and_the_Beginnings_of_Islam_Studia_Islamica_2016_Review_
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Reply #7623 - September 21, 2019, 07:50 PM

Mehdy Shaddel - The Year according to the Reckoning of the Believers’: Papyrus Louvre inv. J. David-Weill 20 and the Origins of the hijrī Era

https://www.academia.edu/31246167/_The_Year_according_to_the_Reckoning_of_the_Believers_Papyrus_Louvre_inv._J._David-Weill_20_and_the_Origins_of_the_hijrī_Era_Der_Islam_94_2018_pp._291-311_

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Reply #7624 - September 21, 2019, 07:52 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 21, 2019, 09:06 AM
I asked this before, havent found the answer yet... Von Sivers says that in 622 the Arabic Kingdom was declared. This is mentioned in Christian sources? Does anyone have a reference to this? Which Christian sources?

Shaddel’s article may be relevant here, without necessarily agreeing with his interpretation.

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Reply #7625 - September 21, 2019, 09:24 PM

Yonatan Moss - Review of Michael Philip Penn, Envisioning Islam: Syriac Christians and the Early Muslim World

https://www.academia.edu/36608714/Review_of_Michael_Philip_Penn_Envisioning_Islam_Syriac_Christians_and_the_Early_Muslim_World_Divinations_Philadelphia_University_of_Pennsylvania_Press_2015_Der_Islam_95_2018_250-253

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Reply #7626 - September 21, 2019, 11:22 PM

Interesting review.
Careful analysis of this record shows that not only was there no clear clash between early Islam and early Syriac Christianity.

Of course. No jihad, etc.

Penn’s approach is informed by two influential, and controversial, theoretical paradigms that have been introduced over the course of the past two decades into scholarship on Judaism, Christianity and Islam in late antiquity.The first paradigm, which needs little introduction to the readers of this journal, has been championed by Fred Donner, Chase Robinson and Stephen Shoemaker (among others).

The other, related new paradigm, advocated by Daniel Boyarin and others, seeks to blur the border between Judaism and Christianity in late antiquity and beyond, unearthing the voices of those who did not recognize a border, and reading the more familiar voices of those who insisted on a border more as a matter of prescription than description.

That is my problem here. Penn relies on works of others as if the topic was settled: in its earliest incarnation normative Islam was not an exclusive religious category. Instead, Islam was originally multi-confessional That directs immediately his mind towards a certain direction. The issue is that the topic is not (at all) settled (at least, for me...)

Initially, Syriac writers rarely saw their conquerors as possessing their own religion.

Of course (yawn...)
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Reply #7627 - September 22, 2019, 10:20 AM

Maria Mavroudi - Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century (Irfan Shahid review)

https://www.academia.edu/1304550/Byzantium_and_the_Arabs_in_the_Sixth_Century

Irfan Shahid download here: http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/10/free-to-download-irfan-shahids-books-on.html

Also: https://www.doaks.org/research/publications/books/byzantium-and-the-arabs-in-the-sixth-century-volume-2-part-2

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Reply #7628 - September 22, 2019, 10:35 AM

Quote from: Altara on September 21, 2019, 11:22 PM
Interesting review.
..........................................................

Initially, Syriac writers rarely saw their conquerors as possessing their own religion.

Of course (yawn...)

I guess that word "Syriac writers" means Syriac writes of that time say ..........."between 5th century to 7th century "............ I wonder you could name some guys and their works ...

and and what is your opinion on this

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THE CHRISTIAN ORIGINS OF ISLAM by Peter J. Leithart

Near the bottom of the pit of hell, Dante encounters a man walking with his torso split from chin to groin, his guts and other organs spilling out. “See how I tear myself!” the man shrieks. “See how Mahomet is deformed and torn!” For us, the scene is not only gruesome but surprising, for Dante is not in a circle of false religion but in a circle reserved for those who tear the body of Christ. Like many medieval Christians, Dante views Islam less as a rival religion than as a schismatic form of Christianity.

A handful of Western scholars now think there is considerable historical truth to Dantes view. According to the standard Muslim account, the Quran contains revelations that Allah delivered to Mohammed through the angel Jibril between 609 and 632. They were fixed in written form under the third Caliph in the mid seventh century. Islamic scholar Christoph Luxenberg doubts most of this. In 2000, he published the German edition of The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran , whose restrained title and dispassionate tone belie its explosive arguments-explosive enough for the author to hide behind a pseudonym. The book has been banned in several Islamic countries.

One of Luxenbergs central arguments is that the Quran is an Arabic translation of an original Syriac/Aramaic text. Luxenberg is able to resolve oddities in the Arabic text by treating them as erroneous Arabic translations of an original Syriac text. Words that have no Arabic source turn out to be garbled versions of common Syriac terms. Luxenberg even finds evidence in the Quran itself for treating it as a translation. By his rendering, Sura 44:58 says “we have translated [the Koran] into your language so that they may allow themselves to be reminded.”

Luxenberg has become notorious for challenging the common translation of huri , usually understood as the hot-bodied virgins with whom faithful Islamic men hope to be rewarded in paradise. According to Luxenberg, they arent wide-eyed virgins, but white grapes, “juicy fruits hanging down,” ready for picking (Sura 38:52). Its a vision of paradise similar to that of the fourth-century Christian poet, Ephrem the Syrian: “He who abstained from the wine here below, for him yearn the grapevines of Paradise. Each of them extends him a drooping cluster.”

That reference to Ephrem is not accidental, for Luxenberg argues that the Quran derives from a Syriac Christian lectionary. Again, the evidence is hiding in plain sight. It has become commonplace among scholars of Islam to recognize that the word Quran means lectionarium , but few draw the controversial conclusion: “If Koran . . . really means lectionary, then one can assume that the Koran intended itself first of all to be understood as nothing more than a liturgical book with selected texts from the Scriptures (the Old and New Testament) and not at all as a substitute for the Scriptures . . . as an independent Scripture.”

The contributors to The Hidden Origins of Islam (2010) push Luxenbergs revisionism further. The books editor, Karl-Heinz Ohlig, reminds readers that most of the biographical information we have about Mohammed doesnt come from the Quran but from texts written fully two centuries after Mohammeds death. Its not until the ninth century that Muslim writers claim that the Quran contains the revelations given to Mohammed. The year 622-which Muslims mark as the year Mohammed and his followers made the Hijira , a fateful journey from Mecca to Medina-was not originally connected with Mohammed at all. Before there is any record of Muslims dating time from the Hijra, Arabic Christians dated the beginning of the Arabic era to 622, when they gained independence from Persias Sassanian empire.

Other early Islamic texts support the notion that Islam emerged not as a new religion but as a novel development within a Syriac Christian milieu. In his contribution to Hidden Origins , Luxenberg applies his method to the inscription on the Dome of the Rock, which seems to contain a straightforward Islamic confession: “There is no god but God alone . . . Mohammed the servant of God and messenger.” Luxenberg points out that Mohammed, usually understood as a proper name, means “exalted be” or “praised be,” and also notes that Syriac Christians, who were skeptical of the Nicene doctrine of Jesus divine sonship, preferred Isaiahs title “Servant” for Jesus. He contends that the inscription should read: “There is no god but God alone . . . Praised be the servant of God and his messenger.” This makes better sense of the sequel, which explicitly identifies “Messiah Jesus, son of Mary” as “the messenger of God and his Word.” An inscription about Jesus was later reinterpreted as a confession of a different faith entirely.

When the Quran is placed in the context of Syrian Christianity and the debates over Arian, Nestorian, and Monophysite Christology that wracked eastern Christianity in these centuries, its debt to Christianity becomes plausible. The Quran includes passages, for example, that reflect Syrian attacks on Monophysite Christology. Ohlig claims in his concluding essay to Hidden Origins that “most of the theological statements in the Quran-for example, the conception of God, Christology, and eschatology-arose from Syrian traditions of Christianity.”

These are today minority views, even maverick. If they prove right, they might open the possibility of fresh efforts to disentangle the knotted history of Christian-Muslim relations.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7629 - September 22, 2019, 01:24 PM

Quote
Mehdy Shaddel - The Year according to the Reckoning of the Believers’: Papyrus Louvre inv. J. David-Weill 20 and the Origins of the hijrī Era

https://www.academia.edu/31246167/_The_Year_according_to_the_Reckoning_of_the_Believers_Papyrus_Louvre_inv._J._David-Weill_20_and_the_Origins_of_the_hijrī_Era_Der_Islam_94_2018_pp._291-311_

haha, cute to see May full of emotion defend the hijra against all these evil scholars who take the contemporary Christian sources seriously. I guess his greatest nemesis is Robert Kerr.

Shows again that probably no one is 100 % objective in scholarship even if some think they are.

But what I do learn from this article is that the Arab era was applied quite early on also by non-Muslims/Arabs. And this in the lunar calendar.
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Reply #7630 - September 22, 2019, 02:56 PM

Quote from: zeca on September 22, 2019, 10:20 AM
Maria Mavroudi - Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century (Irfan Shahid review)

https://www.academia.edu/1304550/Byzantium_and_the_Arabs_in_the_Sixth_Century

Irfan Shahid download here: http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/10/free-to-download-irfan-shahids-books-on.html

Also: https://www.doaks.org/research/publications/books/byzantium-and-the-arabs-in-the-sixth-century-volume-2-part-2

Shahid was a great scholar and has brought to the field.
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Reply #7631 - September 22, 2019, 03:14 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 22, 2019, 10:35 AM
I guess that word "Syriac writers" means Syriac writes of that time say ..........."between 5th century to 7th century "............ I wonder you could name some guys and their works ...

and and what is your opinion on this

1/ There are many : get Seeing Islam... by Hoyland on academia, it is free.
2/ Well... My thoughts are that one way or another, Syriac Christianity is important regarding the Quran.Syriac Christianity in the Peninsula is in the deep South West: Yemen (from Najran) then the North East Coast then South Iraq, then North Iraq until Edessa (now Turkey). The West part is a barren desert until Najran. I advise to to read carefully S.H. Griffith (still) on academia; 2007-Griffith-- -IMP---SYRIACISMS IN THE ARABIC QURAN.
(own personal classification -IMP--- = important)
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Reply #7632 - September 22, 2019, 03:22 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 22, 2019, 01:24 PM
haha, cute to see May full of emotion defend the hijra against all these evil scholars who take the contemporary Christian sources seriously. I guess his greatest nemesis is Robert Kerr.

Shaddel is a translator, (yawn...)

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Shows again that probably no one is 100 % objective in scholarship even if some think they are.

Especially some... like Shaddel...

Quote
But what I do learn from this article is that the Arab era was applied quite early on also by non-Muslims/Arabs. And this in the lunar calendar.

Yes. 622 might have been Dhu Qar. Yes, the Quran calendar is lunar. No need of Shaddel to know that.
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Reply #7633 - September 22, 2019, 04:15 PM

Quote from: Altara on September 22, 2019, 02:56 PM
Shahid was a great scholar and has brought to the field.

But sadly didn’t live long enough to get to the 7th century: https://www.doaks.org/research/library-archives/dumbarton-oaks-archives/historical-records/oral-history-project/irfan-shahid
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My project became tripartite; so I divided it into: Rome and the Arabs from the settlement of Pompeii until Constantine, and then the middle period, Byzantium and the Arabs from Constantine to Heraclius, and then the third part, which is the climax, the rise of Islam and the Arab conquest. So, far I have finished one and two in six volumes, and volume seven is being now prepared for publication, which will bring to a close part two. Byzantion in Belgium has published three volumes collecting my articles, which are collateral with the six volumes, so we have now almost ten volumes on these three centuries. These have their own identity as contributions to late antiquity, but they are more importantly prolegomena for the rise of Islam and the Arab conquest, the climax of my work, which I hope to finish in the next few years. I have done most of the researches; it is a matter of reflecting on it and writing it; and if it has one virtue, it will be because I’ll be the first historian to have filled the gap of all these centuries with my gaze fixed on the seventh to know exactly what happened and why it happened the way it did.

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Reply #7634 - September 22, 2019, 05:45 PM

Quote from: zeca on September 22, 2019, 04:15 PM
But sadly didn’t live long enough to get to the 7th century: https://www.doaks.org/research/library-archives/dumbarton-oaks-archives/historical-records/oral-history-project/irfan-shahid

I just want to remind the readers That Prof. Irfan shahid ((Erfan Arif Qa'war)) happened to be born in an Arab Palestine Christian family from Nazareth, Everyone who is interested in early Islamic history must read his stellar works .. and on that note let me add his wonderful paper on that great man from middle east Khalil Gibran

GIBRAN KAHLIL GIBRAN BETWEEN TWO MILLENNIA by Professor Irfan Shahid _ 2002

Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls;
the most massive characters are seared with scars......Khalil Gibran

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7635 - September 22, 2019, 06:06 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 22, 2019, 10:35 AM
I guess that word "Syriac writers" means Syriac writes of that time say ..........."between 5th century to 7th century "............ I wonder you could name some guys and their works ...

When Christians First Met Muslims: A Sourcebook of the Earliest Syriac Writings on Islam

http://almuslih.com/Library/Penn,%20M%20-%20When%20Christians%20First%20Met%20Muslims%20(Intro).pdf

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DxS7N1yKQQQ

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Reply #7636 - September 22, 2019, 07:06 PM

A reminder that there was Greek as well as Syriac...

Maria Mavroudi - Greek Language and Education Under Early Islam

https://www.academia.edu/10198443/_Greek_Language_and_Education_Under_Early_Islam_in_Islamic_Cultures_Islamic_Contexts_Essays_in_Honor_of_Professor_Patricia_Crone_eds._Behnam_Sadeghi_Asad_Q._Ahmed_Robert_Hoyland_Adam_Silverstein_Leiden_E._J._Brill_2014_295-342

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Reply #7637 - September 23, 2019, 01:25 AM

Quote from: Altara on September 21, 2019, 01:15 PM

Interesting. But!
"Christian" built on the Temple Mount when they arrive in 637

Your comment is valid IF you assume Arabs holding power in 661 are the same as the ones taking over Jerusalem in 637 (and if you exclude sources pointing out to the role of the Jews but we already been there so let's not discuss this again as it is a dead end).

There is one event told in both muslim sources as well as non muslim source (an archeological one) that highlight the fact that those were different arabs.

Quote
The baths of Gadara (or Arabic coins minted with crosses) is not sufficient to say that he is Christian.Especially since that Mu`awiya wage war vs Constantinople. The Christian Mu`awiya fight Christians later until Constantinople (664/65)
I'm fear that...

Christians can fight Christians, and have for centuries, so your comment here is irrelevant.

I can see why Von Sivers would see Mu'awiya as a christian king :

- Maronite Chronicle,
- portray of his son Yazid in muslim sources and Mu'awiya link with the Kalb tribe through his wife, Yazid's mother,
- the Theophanes Chronicle

He might have been christian, but a different christian than the christians in Byzantium, but he was first the amir al mu'minin and, to refer to Peter Von Sivers paper Mu'Awiya, Commander of the Believers but which faith ? in The emergence of a world religion IV, Muhammad - story or myth? Markus Groß / Karl-Heinz Ohlig (ed.) Inarah - Writings on Early History of Islam and the Quran, Volume 8, I think one must rather say which FaithS.
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Reply #7638 - September 23, 2019, 01:28 AM

Quote from: Altara on September 21, 2019, 06:08 PM
It is worth mentioning that instead of translating this Syriac word as merely a “guide”, one can wonder if what we have here is not a calque of the Arabic word mahdī as meaning the “eschatological Savior” who is expected to come at the end of time.[/i]

Really ? So the Muhammad could be the Mahdi ? I think I saw that somewhere
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Reply #7639 - September 23, 2019, 01:34 AM

Quote from: zeca on September 22, 2019, 04:15 PM
But sadly didn’t live long enough to get to the 7th century: https://www.doaks.org/research/library-archives/dumbarton-oaks-archives/historical-records/oral-history-project/irfan-shahid

Quote
Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 2, Part 2, 2010
Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 2, Part 1, 2002
Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 1, part 1, 1995
Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 1, part 2, 1995
Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fifth Century, 1989
Byzantium and the Semitic Orient Before the Rise of Islam (Collected Studies Series: No.Cs270), 1988
Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fourth Century, 1984

This kind of makes me think about George R Martin and his a Song of Ice and Fire saga : more and more time between each volume but I hope he will complete them before his end.

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I have done most of the researches; it is a matter of reflecting on it and writing it; and if it has one virtue, it will be because I’ll be the first historian to have filled the gap of all these centuries with my gaze fixed on the seventh to know exactly what happened and why it happened the way it did.

He seems to think he cracked the mystery about islam origins ; he must have left some clues in the works he achieved
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Reply #7640 - September 23, 2019, 07:44 AM

what happened MarcS?? why this post? did you read anything of what Prof. Irfan shahid wrote??
Quote from: Marc S on September 23, 2019, 01:34 AM
This kind of makes me think about George R Martin and his a Song of Ice and Fire saga : more and more time between each volume but ~~I hope he will complete them before his end~~.

don't worry about reading his further works ,
Quote
Prof. Irfan Shahid, Emeritus Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Georgetown University and Research Fellow of Byzantine Studies at Dumbarton Oaks Library in Georgetown, passed away peacefully on Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at Washington Hospital Center in Washington, DC.

forget Irfan shahid works or r eading him....... you don't read anything that is objective on early Islamic history dear MarcUS., you only read selective works that appeases you and often they might have said " Prophet of Islam was Arab bandit & Criminal., and Jesus Christ was son of god"., I don't think you even read Quran. or even Bible

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He seems to think he cracked the mystery about islam origins ; he must have left some clues in the works he achieved

His work indeed cracked (AT LEAST TRIED TO CRACK) origins of Islam ., He gave many clues in his work ..but unfortunately ROMAN CHRIST WORSHIPERS OR ROMAN KINGDOMS HERO WORSHIPERS do not read works of people like dr. Irfan Shahid,., please download read his works from that link of zeca post....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7641 - September 23, 2019, 11:12 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 23, 2019, 07:44 AM
don't worry about reading his further works ,

I do worry ; you don't seem to know who George R Martin is ; he is the author of the novel saga adapted on tv under the name Game of Thrones ; I do hope he will complete his work unlike the poor Irfan Shahid.

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forget Irfan shahid works or r eading him....... you don't read anything that is objective on early Islamic history dear MarcUS., you only read selective works that appeases you and often they might have said " Prophet of Islam was Arab bandit & Criminal., and Jesus Christ was son of god"., I don't think you even read Quran. or even Bible

You seem upset ; you had a bad weekend ?
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Reply #7642 - September 24, 2019, 01:25 AM

Quote from: Marc S on September 23, 2019, 01:25 AM
Your comment is valid IF you assume Arabs holding power in 661 are the same as the ones taking over Jerusalem in 637

He is valid because the Temple Mount is a garbage for Christian who rules Palestine. It is the sign of God for them that the Jews have been superseded by Christianity.

Plus, one does not have any clear and unequivocal sources that indicates the contrary. It is then a logical deduction. 636 Yarmuk>>> 637 Jerusalem.

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(and if you exclude sources pointing out to the role of the Jews but we already been there so let's not discuss this again as it is a dead end).

One knows the role of the Jews with the Persians since 614.

Quote
There is one event told in both Muslim sources as well as non Muslim source (an archaeological one) that highlight the fact that those were different Arabs.

This event can be explained differently than you do.

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Christians can fight Christians, and have for centuries,

Later.

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I can see why Von Sivers would see Mu'awiya as a christian king :

Of course, I can see very well too.

- Maronite Chronicle,
- portray of his son Yazid in muslim sources and Mu'awiya link with the Kalb tribe through his wife, Yazid's mother,
- the Theophanes Chronicle

It does not mean that he was Christian. Especially that "Islam" as one knows it did not exist at that time.It is a slow construction. That is why scholars of today like Sivers can think that he was "Christian" : it is perfectly understandable that they might think it.

Quote
He might have been christian, but a different christian than the christians in Byzantium, but he was first the amir al mu'minin

A "different" Christian means nothing at that time. Mainstream institutional Christianity (Catholics, Monophysites, Nestorians) even with multiple conflicts inside it (notably the structuration of the inner nature of Jesus) and some other topics have the same basic creed : Jesus is the son of God and he is God. One does not have any sources of a group in the 5,6, 7th. which called itself "Christian" outside institutional Christianity (Catholics, Monophysites, Nestorians). The "Nazoreans" of Iraq are Christians (cf.Brelaud-Briquet Chatonnet, etc).
Did any sources attests that Mu'awiya was a Christian of any kind? None. Never the Maronite Chronicle says that Mu'awiya was a Christian. There's not perceptible stuff that would allow us to think that there would have been something which prevent the Maronite Chronicle to say so.
Sivers is wrong.
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Reply #7643 - September 24, 2019, 09:46 AM

Quote from: Marc S on September 23, 2019, 01:28 AM
Really ? So the Muhammad could be the Mahdi ? I think I saw that somewhere

An abstract figure can bear any name, except some specific ones. "Mashiah" was already taken by Jesus, but another name can signify the same thing, it is possible that "Mahdi" bears more or less the same signification, namely the one who will save this or that. Moreover, later, in the Arab side, when the Quranic text were really read, he lost this name to be a "prophet". But it is interesting that the first name was "Mahdi" "guide".
I did not know this passage of Penkayé: Neuenkirchen' insight mhadyōnō/ "guide" as a calque of Mahdi seems to me interesting; it was possibly the first name given to the figure to private Arabs soldier by those (the Arab elite...) who communicate them the narrative (God sent an Arab to you, it is the guide, etc) to drive them where they want.
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Reply #7644 - September 24, 2019, 08:52 PM

Quote from: zeca on September 22, 2019, 06:06 PM
When Christians First Met Muslims: A Sourcebook of the Earliest Syriac Writings on Islam

http://almuslih.com/Library/Penn,%20M%20-%20When%20Christians%20First%20Met%20Muslims%20(Intro).pdf

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DxS7N1yKQQQ

In January 636, Arabs are in Emesa. Emesa >>> Mecca : 1 621,51 km (1 007,56 mi)
(yawn...)
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Reply #7645 - September 24, 2019, 09:14 PM

Quote from: Altara on September 24, 2019, 08:52 PM
In January 636, Arabs are in Emesa. Emesa >>> Mecca : 1 621,51 km (1 007,56 mi)
(yawn...)

did you read through that book "When Christians First Met Muslims.,A Sourcebook of the Earliest Syriac Writings on Islam" ..

it list number of Chronicles., such as

Chronicle 640., Khuzistan Chronicle., Maronite Chronicle., Chronicle 705., Chronicle 705.....

I wonder whether they were real Chronicles that are translated or they just stories about those Chronicle ?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7646 - September 24, 2019, 09:34 PM

Quote from: Altara on September 24, 2019, 01:25 AM

Plus, one does not have any clear and unequivocal sources that indicates the contrary.

Like I said, it is an assumption to think the Arabs who took Jerusalem in 637 are the ones in power in 661. Muslim and non muslim sources do tell us about a war among Arabs so ..................

Quote
This event can be explained differently than you do.

You have no clue about what I am refering to ; but yeah Muslim sources do explain it differently than I do ; I don't buy it but you are free to.

Quote
Of course, I can see very well too.

Like I said, I don't know if Mu'Awiya was a "christian" but his son Yazid :

- had a christian mother,
- is described in muslim sources as having had a christian upbringing and is generally viewed as a bad muslim (and not only by Shi'a because of Kerbala)

So his father being a christian would not have been surprising.

Quote
A "different" Christian means nothing at that time. Mainstream institutional Christianity (Catholics, Monophysites, Nestorians) even with multiple conflicts inside it (notably the structuration of the inner nature of Jesus) and some other topics have the same basic creed : Jesus is the son of God and he is God.

Arianists don't believe Jesus is the Son of God but they were christians

Quote
Did any sources attests that Mu'awiya was a Christian of any kind? None

And the Umayyads ? the answer is not the same.

Who was Amr Ibn al As ?
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Reply #7647 - September 25, 2019, 01:18 AM

He is valid because the Temple Mount is a garbage for Christian who rules Palestine. It is the sign of God for them that the Jews have been superseded by Christianity. Arabs build in the temple Mount in 637. they were not Christians or "different" Christians.

Quote
Like I said, it is an assumption to think the Arabs who took Jerusalem in 637 are the ones in power in 661. Muslim and non muslim sources do tell us about a war among Arabs so ..................

1/ It is a logical deduction.
2/ And? Those who take Damascus 636 and Jerusalem 637 are the same. War or not war.

Quote
You have no clue about what I am referring to

Teach us I'm sure I can respond with arguments you're unable to respond...

Quote
; but yeah Muslim sources do explain it differently than I do ; I don't buy it but you are free to.

I generally do not buy Muslim sources when it serves the master narrative ; for the rest it can be interesting.

Quote
Yazid :- had a Christian mother,

So what. It is understandable of Mu'awiya to marry a Christian...considering 99% of the population is Christian...

Quote
- is described in muslim sources as having had a christian upbringing and is generally viewed as a bad Muslim (and not only by Shi'a because of Kerbala)

Why Iraqi sources viewed him as a bad Muslim? Because of its education? You sure of that? Really?
Quote
So his father being a Christian would not have been surprising.

Yes it would have been surprising. Especially that none contemporary source state it. Therefore it was not. Mu'awiya would have been Christian he'd have destroy the house in the Temple Mount (yawn...) Why he left it?
Quote
Arianists don't believe Jesus is the Son of God but they were Christians

Then Muslims are Christian and they do not know it?
Arius wanted to build on the Temple Mount? You sure of that Arius?

Quote
And the Umayyads ? the answer is not the same.

Umayyads are Christians and they built later something on the Temple Mount? Who told them to do that? Arianism?
You dream awake.
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Reply #7648 - September 25, 2019, 09:28 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1176081908414976000
Quote
Le Coran des historiens, a landmark scholarly work edited by these two fine scholars,
@GuillaumeDye and Prof. Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi, will be released before the end of the year, published by Le Cerf.

Which side are you on?
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Reply #7649 - September 25, 2019, 10:34 AM

Well...
Quote
Some information about the book. The printed version will be published in two tomes, and three volumes.The first tome (1013 pages) is subtitled "Etudes sur le contexte et la genèse du Coran" ["Studies on the context and genesis of the Koran"] and features studies by (in alphabetical order) [Hahahaha!] by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi, Samra Azarnouche, Meir Bar-Asher, Antoine Borrut, @CellardEleonore Eleonore Cellard, François Déroche. Vincent Déroche, Muriel Debié, Guillaume Dye, Frantz Grenet, David Hamidovic, Frédéric Imbert, Christelle Jullien, Manfred Kropp, David Powers, Stephen Shoemaker, Michel Tardieu, Jan van Reeth
The second tome (2387 pages, in two volumes), is entitled "Commentaire et analyse du texte coranique". It is a running commentary, surah by surah - even verse by verse, or brief section by brief section, of the whole Qur'anic corpus. Commentaries are by Mehdi Azaiez, Mette Bjerregaard Mortensen, Anne-Sylvie Boisliveau, @DecharneuxJ, Guillaume Dye, Manfred Kropp, Paul Neuenkirchen, Karl-Friedrich Pohlmann, @GabrielSaidR , Carlos Segovia, @teseitommaso, Jan Van Reeth.Moreover, a third volume of bibliography, prepared by Paul Neuenkirchen, will be published in electronic format.
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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