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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7590 - September 17, 2019, 12:34 AM
    Peter von Sivers - Islamic Origins
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6__C7Wu8qV4
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7591 - September 17, 2019, 03:57 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 16, 2019, 03:37 PM
    Ronny Vollandt - Arabic Versions of the Pentateuch A Comparative Study of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Sources


    One question that comes to mind is whether there was really any continuity between Arabic speaking Christians of the 6th and 7th centuries and the Christian populations that started to switch to using Arabic (rather than Aramaic, Greek, Coptic etc.) from the late 8th century onwards. How far had the original Arabic speaking Christian populations already switched to Islam by this point? A lack of continuity here may help explain the absence of any surviving pre-Islamic Arabic manuscripts. After all if there was a gap in the history of Arabic speaking monasticism who was going to preserve or copy the manuscripts?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7592 - September 17, 2019, 04:55 PM
    Pierre Larcher - La langue du Coran : quelle influence sur la grammaire arabe?

    https://www.academia.edu/37935609/La_langue_du_Coran_quelle_influence_sur_la_grammaire_arabe_The_Language_of_the_Quran_What_Influence_on_Arabic_Grammar_version_auteur_
    Quote
    In the Islamic tradition, the language of the Koran is the “language of Qurayš”, and the “language of Qurayš” is the luġa al-fuṣḥā. Until recently, it has been mainly the poetic Koinè, for most Arabists, with the exception of some “hejazisms”, and the poetic Koinè is the basis for the so-called Classical Arabic. This article proposes a return to the oldest Arab grammatical sources, more specifically the Kitāb of Sībawayhi (d. 179/795?). Sībawayhi never speaks of al-luġa al-fuṣḥā, nor does he speak of the “language of Qurayš”. On the contrary, he refers more generally to “the language of the Hejaz” (or “of the people of the Hejaz”). He often sets it against the language (of the people) of Tamīm. Nevertheless, there is a double asymmetry. Whereas Sībawayhi sometimes says “we heard people from Tamīm say [...]”, he mentions the “language of the Hejaz” only from hearsay. More importantly, while “tamimisms” are often features that can still be found in modern Arabic dialects, the “hejazisms” are illustrated by Quranic examples: we conclude that the “language of the Hejaz” is but the Islamic name for the language of the Quran. Many of these “hejazisms” (phonological, morphological, syntactic) were not kept by the Classical language, which is to be understood as the product of the grammarians’ standardization work. Thus, it is not the language of the Quran that had influenced Arabic grammar: it is rather the Arabic grammar that has led to the “classicisation” of the language of the Quran via the qirā’āt ("readings").

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7593 - September 17, 2019, 07:23 PM
    Quote
    Do you want to get an idea of #Arabic 100s of years before Sibawayh? Read #Safaitic! 4 those who can't join me in class, I share this teaching document with a selection of Safaitic texts, fully glossed, normalized, and translated.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1174008356932972550
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7594 - September 17, 2019, 07:24 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 17, 2019, 03:57 PM
    One question that comes to mind is whether there was really any continuity between Arabic speaking Christians of the 6th and 7th centuries and the Christian populations that started to switch to using Arabic (rather than Aramaic, Greek, Coptic etc.)from the late 8th century onwards


    The continuity is Christianity. Why they switch? Because of the shift of the political power.

    Quote
    How far had the original Arabic speaking Christian populations already switched to Islam by this point?


    What was "Islam" until 710?

    Quote
    A lack of continuity here may help explain the absence of any surviving pre-Islamic Arabic manuscripts. After all if there was a gap in the history of Arabic speaking monasticism who was going to preserve or copy the manuscripts?


    It would be necessary that there had been manuscripts.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7595 - September 17, 2019, 07:35 PM
    Quote
    we conclude that the “language of the Hejaz” is but the Islamic name for the language of the Quran.


    Of course as the "Hejaz" is a place void of people.As there is no  "Hejaz" known before 700.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7596 - September 18, 2019, 01:07 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 17, 2019, 07:24 PM
    .........What was "Islam" until 710?..................


    what a Question.. .. What was Islam until 710?  reposing that question in to a different phases of Islam

    What was Islam until 632?
    What was Islam from 632 to 634?
    What was Islam from 634 to 644? 
    What was Islam from 644 to 656?
    and what was Islam from 656 to 661?

    And who was Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān; 602 – 26 April 680) was the founder and first caliph of the Umayyad Caliphat??  And what was his relation with that  third  Rashidun Caliph, or "Rightly Guided Caliph "Uthman ibn Affan?

    And finally WHO WAS MUHAMMAD?
    WHY HIS TWO FATHER IN-LAWS & TWO SON IN-LAWS BECAME RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPHS AFTER HIM?? .
    And all of them were murdered . that includes Muhammad  in the story of early Islam..   Why did the these Ibn Muslims do that?

    So many questions dear Altara.... but Altara where do you start your Islam??

     .. back to your question ...

    What was Islam until 710  in your neck of the world ??
    would you not consider Umayyad Caliphate  of all this green land as Muslims??


     
    And they ruled that area until 744 or so..and more

    Quote
    Capital    Damascus  (SYRIA)(661–744)

    Harran (TURKEY)(744–750)

    Capital-in-exile   Córdoba (SPAIN) (756–1031)


    who were these guys?? what is their relation with that Mecca..Madina...?
    100s of questions 1000s of doubts ...  well allah knows all the answers ...  fools just have to believe the stories  of Ibns who became Muslims way after the alleged death of Prophet of Islam .  Muhammad...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7597 - September 18, 2019, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 17, 2019, 07:23 PM
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1174008356932972550


    Reconstructed vocalization
    le-ʾ Ādam ben Yesmaʿ īl ben Yesmaʿ īl ben Ṣ aʿ d wa-wagama ʿ al-ʾ aḫ ī-h ʿ al-ʾAws wa-ʿ al-Ḥ add ʾ aḫ ī-h fa-hā-llāt rayyeḥ ī wa-qeyat
    Translation
    By Ādam son of Yesmaʿīl son of Yesmaʿīl son of Ṣaʿd and he grieved for his brother, for Aws, and for Ḥadd his brother so, O Allāt, grant relief and protect!
    __
    Reconstructed vocalization
    le-Zayd ben Rāgel wa-raʿ aya haʾ -ʾ ebela haʿ -ʿ erśạ sanata mayeta ben qayṣar wa-sameʿ a ʾ an mayeta p ʰ ele pp ʰ oṣ p ʰ a-soḫ era wa-hab-bakrat wa-hā-Gadda-Ṣ́ay p ʰ (e) l(e)ʿ an ḏ ā yoʿ awwer mā yohanneʾ wa-ġanīmat le-dī daʿ aya hat-telāla

    By Zayd son of Rāgel and he pastured the camels in the valley the year the son of Caesar died but he had heard that Philipp had died and was fooled and this (drawing of a) she-camel (is by him) so, O Gadd-Ṣ́ay p ʰ curse him who would efface what brings pleasure and may he who would read this writing have spoil.
    I thinks I'm right about :
    امرؤ القيس Imru' al-Qays(ar) :  (the) Commander the Caesar. Wink

    ___

    le-Māsek ben Ṣ aʿ d ben Yesmaʿ īl wa-wagada ʾ aṯ ra Ṣ aʿ d p ʰ a-nawgaʿ a wa-baʾ esū maṯ ̣-ṯ ̣allalū wa-roġema manaya ʿ āneya wa-qāla ḫ abbala-h taraḥ wa-hā-llāt ʿ awwerī ḏ ā yoʿ awwer has-se p ʰ ra

    By Māsek son of Ṣaʿd son of Yesmaʿīl and he found the traces of Ṣaʿd and grieved in pain - for those who remain (alive) despair - because he (= Ṣaʿd) was struck down by Fate while suffering; and he (= Māsek) said: grief has driven him mad; and O Allāt blind him who would efface this writing.

    (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7598 - September 18, 2019, 01:57 PM
    https://www.academia.edu/40375972/Al-Jallad_teaching_reference_document_A_concise_Safaitic_chrestomathy

     Cheesy    "Oh allat I love it " Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7599 - September 18, 2019, 03:44 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 18, 2019, 01:07 PM
    what a Question.. .. What was Islam until 710?  reposing that question in to a different phases of Islam

    What was Islam until 632?
    What was Islam from 632 to 634?
    What was Islam from 634 to 644?  
    What was Islam from 644 to 656?
    and what was Islam from 656 to 661?


    No Islam at those times, but quranic texts (not necessarily all) cf.637.

    Quote
    And who was Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān; 602 – 26 April 680) was the founder and first caliph of the Umayyad Caliphat??

     

    He was not from Mecca/Zem zem/Medina. None external or internal contemporaries sources attest of this.

    Quote
    And what was his relation with that  third  Rashidun Caliph, or "Rightly Guided Caliph "Uthman ibn Affan?

    One have no external (i.e not Sebeos) or internal  contemporaries sources   attesting of the existence of this figure who is so important that it is incomprehensible that we didn't find any trace.
    Quote
    And finally WHO WAS MUHAMMAD?


    A literary figure. He never existed.

    Quote
    WHY HIS TWO FATHER IN-LAWS & TWO SON IN-LAWS BECAME RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPHS AFTER HIM?? .
    And all of them were murdered . that includes Muhammad  in the story of early Islam..   Why did the these Ibn Muslims do that?


    Islamization of stories (9th c.) about internal Arab struggle since "632" but, in fact,  before, asthe war vs the Persians starts early 7th c. (cf Dhu Qar)

    Quote
    So many questions dear Altara.... but Altara where do you start your Islam??


    Hahaha good question! From Arab side 705/30. Elite Arabs were quranized (quranic texts -not necessarily all- .)cf.637 -House of prayer in Jerusalem.



    Quote
    .. back to your question ...
    who were Umayyad Caliphate guys?? what is their relation with that Mecca..Madina...?


    1/Hahaha! You have to put aside Mecca/Kaba to get it Wink
    2/ None.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7600 - September 18, 2019, 11:40 PM
    Just for comparison with the Islamic tradition...

    Anthony Kaldellis - The Great Medieval Mythogenesis: Why Historians Should Look Again at Medieval Heroic Tales

    https://www.academia.edu/14481565/_The_Great_Medieval_Mythogenesis_Why_Historians_Should_Look_Again_at_Medieval_Heroic_Tales_in_U._Dill_and_C._Walde_eds._Antike_Mythen_Medien_Transformationen_und_Konstruktionen_Berlin_and_New_York_W._de_Gruyter_2009_356-371
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7601 - September 19, 2019, 11:35 AM
    Indeed interesting paper. You will remark that, if it structurally resembles to what happen with the Islamic tradition, it resembles it only to the movement (to the past) effected .
    Apart this, the Islamic situation (Islamizing their past) has nothing to see with what happened in North Europe and Constantinople because there they perfectly knew that their ancestors were not Christians.
    In the Islamic case, 9th c. historiographers thought that their ancestors (from 622)  were Muslims as they were : they were obliged to believe this. Why? Simply because this belief explained to them the existence of the Quranic corpus. In good faith they therefore recounted the past clothing (in good faith) the events in an Islamic milieu which in fact, did not exist as theirs. There is no plot here at all. There is only the attempt to recount their past with the dimension of the existence before their eyes of the centre of their life : the Quran, where, from it, an history to its emergence already existed (Mecca/Kaba).
    The only issue now, is that, what  9th c. historiographers recount of this Islamic milieu (which explain to them the existence of the Quran) from 622 to 700 does not corresponds to what one sees on many points. Their history is inexact.Therefore it question necessarily the account of the emergence of the Quran they set forth.Necessarily .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7602 - September 19, 2019, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 19, 2019, 11:35 AM
    ......................In the Islamic case, 9th c. (Muslim)historiographers thought that their ancestors (from 622)  were Muslims as they were : they were obliged to believe this. Why? Simply because this belief explained to them the existence of the Quranic corpus. In good faith they therefore recounted the past clothing (in good faith) the events in an Islamic milieu which in fact, did not exist as theirs. There is no plot here at all. There is only the attempt to recount their past with the dimension of the existence before their eyes of the centre of their life : the Quran, where, from it, an history to its emergence already existed (Mecca/Kaba). ....................


    you mean "9th century historiographers.. means "literature from hadith??"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7603 - September 19, 2019, 03:43 PM
    Quote
    you mean "9th century historiographers.. means "literature from hadith??"


    Including literature from hadith yes where the Mecca/Kabba/Zem zem  "Prophet" is staged also with people or events who belongs to "real" history (Dhu Qar, Christianity/Judaism.)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7604 - September 19, 2019, 07:34 PM
    Altara,

    But you can't deny that Arabs separated themselves already from mainstream christianity early 7th C? A first proof is the building of their prayer house on the temple mount. Also the early archeological evidence of early mosques with a distinct architecture is proof.

    Maybe they didnt see themselves as muslims, but they did have a distinct identity very early on.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7605 - September 19, 2019, 07:48 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Altara on September 18, 2019, 03:44 PM
    internal Arab struggle
    Elite Arabs were quranized 


    Quote from: mundi on September 19, 2019, 07:34 PM
    Altara,

    ...................Arabs separated themselves..........................



    I see that word "Arab" used some 70 times on this page alone.,  what does that word "Arab" means in those early Islamic days??    Arab Pagans??    one must realize in the middle east ... Egypt to Iran  Yemen to Syria  plenty of Arabic speaking  folks who followed Christianity as well as Judaism    and other faiths ..  So that word has no meaning when it comes to early Islam..

    Islam is the faith of Coverts Not faith of Arabs...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7606 - September 19, 2019, 08:42 PM
    Daniel Beck - By The Fig And The Olive! How Muḥammad’s Sacrifice Made Him Worthy To Be Summoned To His Lord’s Land And Commissioned As A New Moses (Sūrat al-Balad, Sūrat al-Tīn, and Sūrat al-Kawṯar—Q 90, 95, and 108)
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7607 - September 19, 2019, 08:48 PM
    Holger Zellentin - Q96 Sūrat al-ʿAlaq Between Philology and Polemics: A (Very) Critical Assessment of Günter Lüling’s Ur-Qurʾān

    https://www.academia.edu/38449478/_Q96_Sūrat_al-ʿAlaq_Between_Philology_and_Polemics_A_Very_Critical_Assessment_of_Günter_Lüling_s_Ur-Qurʾān_in_George_Tamer_ed._Die_Koranhermeneutik_von_Günter_Lüling_Berlin_De_Gruyter_2019_159-185
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7608 - September 19, 2019, 08:51 PM
    Holger Zellentin - The Rise of Monotheism in Arabia

    https://www.academia.edu/38449455/_The_Rise_of_Monotheism_in_Arabia_in_Josef_Lössl_and_Nicholas_J._Baker-Brian_eds._A_Companion_to_Religion_in_Late_Antiquity_Blackwell_Companions_to_the_Ancient_World_Chichester_Wiley_2018_157-180
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7609 - September 20, 2019, 09:15 AM
    Quote from: mundi on September 19, 2019, 07:34 PM


    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes

    Quote
    But you can't deny that Arabs separated themselves already from mainstream Christianity early 7th C?

    I do not get your "but" here...
    In my last post  I (just) say that " 9th c. historiographers thought that their ancestors (from 622 onwards) according to the Mecca/Kaba story  were Muslims as they were : they were obliged to believe this. Why? Simply because this belief explained to them the existence of the Quranic corpus."
    I add that they (9th c. historiographers) thought that  before the "Prophet" they were pagans.They never said in the narrative that they were Christians. Why? Simply because there is no Christians in Mecca according to the Mecca/Kaba frame which explain to them the existence of the Quran. For them, theirs ancestors never separated  from mainstream Christianity early 7th C. Never.
    Yet one knows that paganism had disappeared and that Arabs were Christians; therefore that their story (the Mecca/Kaba frame ) they recount and slowly construct is inexact. Arabs were Christians. But they were not like all Christianity present in the Orient. Why?
    You have to find it, therefore reflect.

     
    Quote
    A first proof is the building of their prayer house on the temple mount.


    For me yes.That is why the insight of Gallez is interesting about 2:127.

    Quote
    Maybe they didn't see themselves as Muslims, but they did have a distinct identity very early on.


    The elite who have ordered the building of the prayer house on the temple mount, yes. Not private Arab soldiers. And this distinct identity can only come from Quranic texts ; I do not know from where it could come. But it concerns only an elite, the elite who orders to built.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7610 - September 20, 2019, 09:25 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 19, 2019, 07:48 PM


    I see that word "Arab" used some 70 times on this page alone.,  what does that word "Arab" means in those early Islamic days??  


    The same thing as before... academia is your friend : Greg Fisher.

    Quote
    Islam is the faith of Coverts Not faith of Arabs...


    Arabs Converts Wink

    Quote
    Arab Pagans??

     

    There are no Arab Pagans.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7611 - September 20, 2019, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: zeca on September 19, 2019, 08:42 PM
    Daniel Beck - By The Fig And The Olive! How Muḥammad’s Sacrifice Made Him Worthy To Be Summoned To His Lord’s Land And Commissioned As A New Moses (Sūrat al-Balad, Sūrat al-Tīn, and Sūrat al-Kawṯar—Q 90, 95, and 108)

    Indigestible.Really. No one dares to tell him because he's a cool guy and you does not hurt a cool guy.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7612 - September 20, 2019, 10:07 AM
    Quote from: Altara on September 20, 2019, 09:42 AM
    Indigestible.Really. No one dares to tell him because he's a cool guy and you does not hurt a cool guy.

    Cool guys should go and make movies in Hollywood  .. NOT WRITE NONSENSE on important subjects like history and origins of Islam and Quran 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7613 - September 20, 2019, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 20, 2019, 09:15 AM
    For them, theirs ancestors never separated  from mainstream Christianity early 7th C. Never.

    Arabs were Christians. But they were not like all Christianity present in the Orient. Why?


    Opposition to existing church hierarchies, monasticism, celibacy etc, long before something recognisable as Islam developed? Without answering why or where these ideas developed they would presumably have mattered to a new conquest elite. It could be asked whether they were practically advantageous for the new rulers. No need to side with one church over another or against non-Christians. No need to respect the property rights of churches/monasteries and no need to be told what to do. Independence from religious institutions that represented the religious ideology of someone else’s empire (or a dissident version of that imperial religious ideology). In English terms this might be something like Henry VIII and the reformation - breaking with existing church institutions for a practical advantage and adopting a conveniently available alternative religious ideology, with the C of E developing as a result. It doesn’t explain why that religious ideology had come into existence in the first place but may help explain why a ruling class would adopt it.

    Altara - any thoughts?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7614 - September 20, 2019, 04:51 PM
    Quote
    Altara


    Yes
    Quote
    any thoughts?


    Well... the question was : Yet one knows that paganism had disappeared and that Arabs were Christians; therefore that their story (the Mecca/Kaba frame ) they recount and slowly construct is inexact. Arabs were Christians. But they were not like all Christianity present in the Orient. Why?

    Reflect.Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7615 - September 20, 2019, 06:17 PM
    Quote
    But they were not like all Christianity present in the Orient. Why?


    Pourisharia showed that the Sasanian empire was multi-religious. Profound heresies like proto-Islam  would have found a better climate to develop there than in the Byzantine empire. But the script and content (see Dye) point to a Western Palestinian Christianity.

    So did the elite form by the contact between the Sasanian and Roman Arabs (Von Sivers describes such a scenario if I remember well)? Did the quran emerge in a scribal workshop in Jordan/Palestine?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7616 - September 20, 2019, 06:38 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 20, 2019, 06:17 PM
    Pourisharia showed that the Sasanian empire was multi-religious.


    I think that also, by the 7th century, Sasanian Iraq at least would have had a Christian majority with a minority Zoroastrian ruling group, so in a sense another minority ruling group could step in and take over without it being such a drastic change in the overall system. Later on this would have been a reason for Zoroastrians to convert to Islam, to maintain their positions in the elite.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7617 - September 20, 2019, 07:12 PM
    Pourshariati shows that the Sasanian/Parthian empire was much more complicated religiously. Apparently Mithric worship was an important religion that  persisted long after "the conquests" (which she says initially only served to establish trade routes ).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7618 - September 21, 2019, 09:06 AM
    Von Sivers:

    I asked this before, havent found the answer yet... Von Sivers says that in 622 the Arabic Kingdom was declared. This is mentioned in Christian sources? Does anyone have a reference to this? Which Christian sources?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7619 - September 21, 2019, 09:40 AM
    Quote from: mundi on September 21, 2019, 09:06 AM
    Von Sivers:

    .................Von Sivers says that in 622 the Arabic Kingdom was declared. This is mentioned in Christian sources? Does anyone have a reference to this? Which Christian sources?


    Christology and Prophetology in the early Umayyad Arab Empire
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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