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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7530 - September 05, 2019, 11:13 AM

    You're very far from Zem zem. I think you should talk about it to the translator Shaddel in Twitter Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7531 - September 05, 2019, 11:54 AM

    well not only Sinai's case.. but many cases like Nicolai Sinai .,  who write books/publications on origins of Quran and early Islamic history has THE DISEASE .. .. it is called "APPEASING TO AUTHORITIES"  . It is  there in  every academic field  including sciences .. but this disease is far more prevalent in those folks who explore   history of religions and religious scriptures and paid by the university funds and and  were/are working in UK and US of A...


    This is worth reading:

    Philip Wood - Early Islam in British Higher Education

    https://www.academia.edu/37148444/Early_Islam_in_British_Higher_Education
    Quote
    In an educational environment where interest in Arabic and Islam is growing, I ask the place of revisionist/critical approaches to early Islam in Higher Education. This paper uses 15 semi-structured interviews with Lecturers in early Islam to investigate how they treat controversial subject matter in the classroom. The paper examines how the different approaches taken by lecturers are linked to different kinds of academic training, and asks what kinds of approach are suited to different student demographics. It concludes by suggesting how critical ways of teaching this subject are linked to new approaches in interfaith engagement, which acknowledge the political context for the development of Scriptures.

    Quote
    The lecturers I spoke to all engaged with Muslim students, but these fell into two very different demographics. A majority had a small number of Muslim students, often from middle class Arab or Iranian families that were strongly westernised. While some of these might be practicing Muslims, few of them treated historical evidence in a different way from their peers and that they did not presume that the version of early Islamic history that they knew from domestic or secondary education was accurate. One lecturer commented that learning the history of Muhammad from different perspectives must have surely triggered some kind of ‘internal religious dialogue’, but that she saw few signs of this in the classroom.

    One lecturer in this first group observed that a common problem in teaching came from non-Muslims students who felt obliged to self-censor their analysis of Islamic history (whereas his Muslim students rarely had problems with writing about the Quran and the Sira using the methods of source criticism). He suggested that students with left-leaning politics had heavily internalised the popular notion of Islam as ‘the religion of peace’. Even though he exposed students to sources dealing with religious warfare in Christian and Muslim traditions in the sixth and seventh centuries, he found that some were reluctant to apply the same kind of analysis to both groups. Thus they would dismiss Muslim Arabic accounts of warfare, and the taking of slaves and tribute, but accept near-contemporary accounts of such activities by Romans and Persians. He observed that this kind of reluctance to situate the rise of Islam in a period of widespread violence and apocalyptic expectation made it hard for students to see why groups like ISIS might seem authentically Islamic to some modern Muslims.

    A second pattern was visible in SOAS and some universities in Northern England, where there were large numbers of ‘heritage students’, many from a British South Asian background. Most of the lecturers I spoke to said that these students were happy to use revisionist/ critical approaches on their own terms, and are often delighted to find that ‘it is possible to be an insider and still be critical’. Two lecturers observed that students who had been to dar al-’ulums in Britain were often able to blend different branches of scholarship very successfully and aimed to go on to doctoral programmes in Islamic studies. Some lecturers teaching in Arabic or Theology/ Study of Religions encouraged all students to bring in contextual theological knowledge (both Muslim and Christian). One lecturer, teaching in an Arabic department, even described this as a ‘confessional session’, where everyone discussed their religious background so that their preconceptions would be clear. This lecturer added that it was the ‘post-Anglican’majority that found it hardest to read the Qur’an as a religious text engaged with other religious texts, and that it was this group that required the greatest adjustment to understand the Qur’an as a work of Scripture or to see religious zeal as a motivating factor in the Arab conquests.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7532 - September 05, 2019, 12:12 PM

    So Altara 


    Yes Wink
    Quote
    .. are you writing anything in to this series ?


    Nope...
    Quote
    I think you should write something on that "Mecca -Madina-Muhammad -Zam-zam"  song in to that series


    I need to compose a great tune for this :
    Mecca
    Madina
    Zam-zam

    Madina
    Zam-zam
    Abu Bakr

    The Cave
    Zam-zam
    Muhammad

    Badr
    Abou Bakr
    Kaba

    Utman, Ali
    Zam-zam
    Hijra

    Unfortunately! I have no time! Wink













  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7533 - September 05, 2019, 12:13 PM

    This is worth reading:

    Philip Wood - Early Islam in British Higher Education

    https://www.academia.edu/37148444/Early_Islam_in_British_Higher_Education


    Yes very worth.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7534 - September 05, 2019, 12:22 PM

    Philip Wood and Greg Fisher - Writing the History of the "Persian Arabs": The pre-Islamic perspective on the "Nasrids" of al-Hirah

    https://www.academia.edu/24117123/With_G._Fisher_Writing_the_History_of_the_Persian_Arabs_The_pre-Islamic_perspective_on_the_Nasrids_of_al-Hirah
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7535 - September 05, 2019, 04:44 PM

    Yes very worth.


    Also this:

    Philip Wood - Histories of a golden age: Teaching Muhammad in an MA course in Muslim Cultures at the Institute of Muslim Civilisations

    https://www.academia.edu/24155031/Histories_of_a_golden_age_Teaching_Muhammad_in_an_MA_course_in_Muslim_Cultures_at_the_Institute_of_Muslim_Civilisations
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7536 - September 05, 2019, 04:45 PM

    Quote
    Yes Wink
    Nope...
    I need to compose a great tune for this :
    Mecca
    Madina
    Zam-zam

    Madina
    Zam-zam
    Abu Bakr

    The Cave
    Zam-zam
    Muhammad

    Badr
    Abou Bakr
    Kaba

    Utman, Ali
    Zam-zam
    Hijra

    Unfortunately! I have no time



     Sorry I do not believe in what I crossed out., but making a rhyming tune of those words of yours should be very very easy .., In fact if it was 8th century any uneducated Arab guy who can sing a rhyming sonnet  can take your words and add in to any  Quran surah without any PROFESSORS OF WESTERN UNIVERSITIES noticing what you added in to  it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7537 - September 05, 2019, 04:52 PM

    Philip Wood and Greg Fisher - Writing the History of the "Persian Arabs": The pre-Islamic perspective on the "Nasrids" of al-Hirah

    https://www.academia.edu/24117123/With_G._Fisher_Writing_the_History_of_the_Persian_Arabs_The_pre-Islamic_perspective_on_the_Nasrids_of_al-Hirah

    well your links on  ..topics like

    1. golden age: Teaching Muhammad in an MA course in Muslim Cultures  and in in western ubiversities

     or the other similar ones ., such as  Philip Wood - Early Islam in British Higher Education MA courses  are dime a dozen ., Students can learn by reading  Quran and hadith than attending those classes..

    but but this one
    is extremely important., In fact i  say., exploring Pre-Islamic Arabian literature in detail  is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than exploring origins of Quran or origins of early Islam .

    and and thanks for that link.. please add more links of such nature...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7538 - September 05, 2019, 04:53 PM

    And his book:

    Philip Wood - The Chronicle of Seert: Christian Historical Imagination in Late Antique Iraq

    http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=453481
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7539 - September 05, 2019, 06:55 PM

    Michael Philip Penn - Monks, Manuscripts, and Muslims: Syriac Textual Changes in Reaction to the Rise of Islam

    https://hugoye.bethmardutho.org/article/hv12n2penn
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7540 - September 05, 2019, 08:33 PM

    Juan Cole - The Eastern Roman Sasanian War (603-629) as a Key Symbolic Context for the Qur’an
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-gPV04_ClHQ&list=PLMGuKDgGSRBWWo9M4AwipRSg8Xj2HQqqA&index=3&t=0s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7541 - September 06, 2019, 07:58 AM

    Cole and surah 30:2-4

    Interesting perspective Cole describes here. I would have expected for completeness sake he would have mentioned that the rasm of 30:2-4 could have meant the opposite of his reading and thus have mentioned Rome having won over the believers...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7542 - September 06, 2019, 10:47 AM

    From the moment one considers that the frame Mecca/Zem zem is historical about the conquest such as the narrative recounts it (Muhammad from  Mecca/Zem zem  has raised the jihad) from that moment on, we come up against questions that cannot be answered and we witness, to explain it, the exposition of delusional theories such as that of Bowersock that "Muhammad/ Mecca/Zem zem" was on the Roman side like the Arabs were since ages in the West.
    The only issue is that one have tons of sources about this regarding the Arabs in Syria Palestine : they convert to Christianity. Bowersock being already (of course...) unable to find any source about "Muhammad Mecca/Zem zem" does he have any sources about the presence of Christianity in the western peninsula apart in Yemen?
    At all.
    Yet it does not prevent him to expose his theory.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7543 - September 06, 2019, 02:13 PM

    ...............From the moment one considers that the frame Mecca/Zem zem is historical about the conquest such as the narrative recounts it (Muhammad from  Mecca/Zem zem  has raised the jihad) from that moment on, we come up against questions that cannot be answered and we witness, to explain it............................

    To some extent I agree with those underlined words.,  So

    1.) Would you consider that frame Mecca/Madina/Muhammad/Zem zem as a  historical   Islamic narrative of Muslim converts    but NOT QURANIC NARRATIVE dear Altara?

    2). And  do you think "Quran is nothing to do with Islam since the year say 690 ? and "it is all to do with Islamic narrative from sirat rasul allah coupled with  hadith"?? 

    and and   if it is something to do with it,  what verses of Quran would you take from  it to make it as Islamic scriptures for all times

    or or what verses of present  Quran would you like to take it out  to make it as Islamic scripture for all times?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7544 - September 06, 2019, 02:46 PM

    Quote
    1.) Would you consider that frame Mecca/Madina/Muhammad/Zem zem as a  historical  Islamic narrative of Muslim converts   


    Yes, they believe a history which is inexact whose the merit is to explain to them the existence of the Quran.

    Quote
    but NOT QURANIC NARRATIVE dear Altara?


    The Quran as such depicts non historical facts.
    Quote
    2). And  do you think "Quran is nothing to do with Islam since the year say 690 ? 



    The Quran has nothing to do with what made of it the Arabs who have taking over the 7th c. Orient.The Quran in no way reflects historical facts as such, that can be validated or corroborated. Nor the work of the Abbassid Muslim historians whose the historical affirmations are inexact : none of the Arabs coming in Jerusalem in 637 and none the Ummayyad attests  to be originating of the Peninsula, whereas it is what the Abbassid Muslim historians recounts followed by Western scholarship. (cf.Cole, Bowersock, etc)
    Quote
    and "it is all to do with Islamic narrative from sirat rasul allah coupled with  hadith"??


    Rather the inverse : sirat rasul allah coupled with  hadith have all to do with the Quran and nothing else.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7545 - September 06, 2019, 03:30 PM

    Altara,

    I think Cole is making progress. He admits the tradition is disconnected from the real Quranic meaning. He doesnt follow up on that admission but maybe he will in another life?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7546 - September 07, 2019, 11:12 AM

    Thread on the Namarah inscription: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1169978862341677056
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7547 - September 07, 2019, 03:23 PM

    Eleonore Cellard has posted some short stuffs about Quran' s Ms.
    https://college-de-france.academia.edu/EleonoreCellard/Popularizing
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7548 - September 07, 2019, 03:36 PM



    There is (of course...) "Persians" and "Romans" in the text... His interpretation of the text seems different of others, but it has no really importance for our topic...
    It is curious that nobody (to my knowledge...) has yet  remarked that القيس is the short stuff for "Caesar"... (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7549 - September 08, 2019, 09:51 PM

    2017
    Historiography and Hierotopy: Palestinian
    Hagiography in the Sixth Century A.D.
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ba30/734f2c40b0754638965b4b7da80de73cce6b.pdf
    Interesting stuff for all...
    (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7550 - September 09, 2019, 04:00 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/azforeman/status/1170880694844907522
    Quote
    Mega-thread about the portrayal of poets and poetry in the Qur'an.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7551 - September 09, 2019, 05:11 PM

    Old thread, but interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/GuillaumeDye/status/1088489346192281600
    Quote
    I think it goes much deeper - making the profile of the authors of some texts, for example, makes a "Muhammedian" or "Hijazi" authorship extremely unlikely. And maybe we should stop simply assuming that all of the Qur'an is simply a record of Muhammad's preaching.
    [...]
    I never said I displaced all of the Qur'an from the Hijaz. But there are layers which do not fit with the Hijaz.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7552 - September 09, 2019, 06:40 PM

    A short interview with Guillaume Dye (in French): https://www.marianne.net/debattons/idees/il-y-dans-le-coran-des-elements-de-convergence-entre-lislam-et-le-christianisme

    This is the documentary referred to:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v7aGXLvVpqA
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7553 - September 09, 2019, 08:58 PM

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u8aIOYq5UwY
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7554 - September 09, 2019, 11:45 PM

    Fred Donner - Narratives of Islamic Origins

    http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Donner,%20F%20-%20Narratives%20of%20Islamic%20Origins.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7555 - September 10, 2019, 11:25 AM



    2015 Interview:

    Tuesday evening, Jérôme Prieur and Gérard Mordillat continued their travels to the monotheists. Many of you watched the first three episodes on Arte devoted to Christianity. The two authors now explore the Koran with Jesus as a compass. They signed the documentary "Jesus and Islam". To invite you to continue watching the series that continues tonight and tomorrow, and to help you understand the issues at stake in this work as historians, Marianne interviewed a young French Islamologist, Guillaume Dye, Koran historian.

    Marianne: Is it appropriate today to broadcast a documentary and publish a historical book on the Koran?

    Guillaume Dye: Yes, for two reasons. First of all, because Koranic studies have never been as lively as they are today. This discipline is undergoing many upheavals. Schools are clashing. New theses are emerging. It is therefore very interesting to explain these developments to the public and to make them understand the stakes. It is also important for the public to realize the difference between what we really know, and what we thought we knew, about the beginnings of Islam: things that we thought had been established for a long time are much less certain than we thought.
    Then by civic-mindedness. We must develop a critical eye, we must allow believers and lay people alike to understand the historical environment in which Islam was born. They must be allowed to perceive the complexity of things, and obviously to understand the work of historians - a perspective that is obviously different from that of faith. I will take two simple examples. We don't know when Mohammed was born, and we don't even know in what year he died. Everyone will tell you 632, but this is contradicted by the oldest sources. Nor do we know his real first name: Mohammed is more of a nickname.

    Marianne : To talk about this current situation, do you think that Gérard Mordillat and Jérôme Prieur's choice to choose Jesus and his place in the Koran is a good idea?

    It is already a good choice for marketing and educational reasons: the figure of Jesus makes the link with their three previous documentaries. And this will allow viewers to better understand the historical links between Christianity and Islam.

    But there are deeper reasons. For example, most of the Koran is composed of stories featuring Bible characters or gospels. The Western reader is therefore faced with familiar characters, even if the stories that depict them are often confusing, because they are very allusive, and also because they often refer to apocryphal writings and Jewish and especially Christian legends of late antiquity that people know rather little about.

    Marianne: So this will show the links between Christians and Islam?

    Yes, but these relationships are complex and ambivalent.

    There are elements in the Koran of convergence between Islam and Christianity, especially in the controversy against the Jews, who did not recognize the messianity of Jesus. Then, Jesus enjoys a very high status in the Qur'an: he is said to be the word and spirit of God, he is born of Mary (the only woman whose name is mentioned in the Qur'an), whose virginity is recognized in the Qur'an, and he is the only prophet to receive a revelation from the cradle.

    On the other hand, the Koran rejects the divine nature of Jesus, who is neither God nor his son. In some passages, Jesus is put on the same level as, for example, Job or Jonah, which makes him a rather secondary character. Everything happens as if we had several strata in the Koranic text, some seeking convergence with Christians, others aiming to convince them to abandon their Christology, others still ignoring their existence.
    Jesus is therefore a good entry point to understand the Koran. It is certainly not the only one, but it is perhaps the one that best explains the different points of view that divide the different historical schools that study the Koran.

    Marianne: What are they?

    To summarize in broad terms, there are first of all the approaches that follow, roughly speaking, a "secularized" version within the general framework provided by the Muslim tradition. We will then say that the Koran consists of a set of words spoken by Mohammed himself and represents the experience of the community that existed around him, first in Mecca, then in Medina, between 610 and 632 (Muslim dogmatics, for its part, considers that the Koran was dictated by God to Mohammed, who is therefore not, stricto sensu, the author of the Koran).

    This raises two problems. On the one hand, we know that the accounts of the Muslim tradition are often late and very biased - it is probably unwise to place too much trust in them. On the other hand, there is a tension between the fact that a very important part of the Koran is located in a Christian context (seeking convergence or polemic, sometimes in a very elaborate way) and the fact that the Hedjaz, the region where the Koran is supposed to have been proclaimed, probably knew at the time only a very marginal Christian presence, unlike the rest of Arabia and the Near East.
    Faced with this situation, there are two possibilities. Researchers, let us say, more "traditional", will accept with more or less caution the accounts of the Muslim tradition, and will maintain the idea that the Koranic text has a single author. All that remains for them to do is to build a history around it, and postulate that Mohammed perfectly mastered Christian and Jewish cultures, and that the Christian presence in the Hijaz was more significant than previously thought.
    On the other hand - and here we find more critical approaches - other scholars consider that it is impossible to take seriously the richness and complexity of the Koranic corpus while remaining within the traditional framework. They are led to see the Koran as a collective work (which would have been spread over several generations), partly independent of Mohammed's preaching. While some of the Koran may have been composed in Mecca and Medina, it seems very likely to researchers who have recently begun to study the question of the authors of the Koran and their profile that substantial passages from the Koran have been written by Christian (and, to a lesser extent, Jewish) scholars and scribes who have been able to put their pen at the service of the emerging Muslim community.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7556 - September 10, 2019, 01:31 PM

    Thanks for the translation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7557 - September 10, 2019, 07:22 PM

     N.B. The documentary is a seven part one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7558 - September 12, 2019, 06:50 AM

    Altara,

    You are focussing very much on 2:127. Do you read the verse in the traditional way:

    Quote
    And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.


    Or do you read it differently? Something like:

    Quote
    And then, Abraham will rebuild the foundations of the temple with Ismael...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7559 - September 12, 2019, 11:58 AM

    Altara,

    You are focussing very much on 2:127. Do you read the verse in the traditional way:
    Quote
    Sahih International  translation2:127And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.


    Or do you read it differently? Something like:
    Quote
    2:127 mundi Translation:  And then, Abraham will rebuild the foundations of the temple with Ismael...



    how can any one read Quran the way they want to read it dear mundi??

     well let me put that verse  from that famous Quran translation houses

    Quote
    وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

    Yusuf Ali:   And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.

    Shakir:   And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:

    Pickthall:   And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed): Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower.

    Mohsin Khan:   And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) and (his son) Isma'il (Ishmael) were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), (saying), "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."

    Saheeh:   And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.



    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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