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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 342784 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7500 - September 02, 2019, 07:15 PM


    Altara -


    Yes Wink

    Quote
    Carlos Segovia - Reimagining the Early Quranic Milieu
    https://www.academia.edu/34630485/Reimagining_the_Early_Quranic_Milieu_Conference_Paperdoes Segovia’s argument for placing the early quranic community in Iraq sound plausible to you?

     

    Among other ones that he did not see because he is not an historian, the response is yes.

    Quote
    His academia site lists the titles of a couple of upcoming papers related to this. (“New Insights into the Iranian Setting of the Earliest Quranic Milieu”,


    Yes. We'll see this when he will upload them Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7501 - September 02, 2019, 07:47 PM

    Also upcoming from Gilles Courtieu:

    The Persian keys to Quranic paradise

    https://www.academia.edu/38918174/The_Persian_keys_to_Quranic_paradise_TO_BE_PUBLISHED
    Quote
    This chapter is truly a matter of remapping, geographically speaking, and the metaphor of a map is well deserved.  For once in Islamic studies, the compass shows north without doubt. Mostly by the use of some very specific verses of the Qur’an, and by the means of material culture, it is possible to prove that the Qur’anic eschatology was inspired by the socio-cultural milieu of the contemporary Iran and Mesopotamia, ruled by the mighty Sasanian empire, then North of Arabia : a track and a way rarely if not never explored nor followed by scholars


    Why Hārūt, why Mārūt, why Hārūt and Mārūt? Some simple questions on a long-standing problem, and the search of some not-so-sectarian milieu

    https://www.academia.edu/37279799/Why_Hārūt_why_Mārūt_why_Hārūt_and_Mārūt_Some_simple_questions_on_a_long-standing_problem_and_the_search_of_some_not-so-sectarian_milieu_TO_BE_PUBLISHED
    Quote
    Everyone who is involved in Qur’anic studies from an Iranian perspective will sooner or later encounter the troublesome issue of Hārūt and Mārūt’s presence in the Q 2:2122. Until now, a lot of detailed works have been produced dealing with two questions: 1) the Jewish tales, as sources recomposed in the verse, 2) numerous attempts to explain it from later muslim exegesis and mythology.

    The present paper cannot claim to offer something new on that side. It will focus first on these two intruders, not on the literary context, only on their names and identities, all Iranian of course, and on some precise cultural milieu, their hypothetical cradle. And at the end, the question will be: why these two Mazdaean entities – Avestic Hauruuatāt, Amərətāt – were involved in a short, Jewish-like story then included in a famous Arab(ic) book? To tell the truth, there is something peculiar in this complicated situation.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7502 - September 02, 2019, 08:48 PM

    Hahaha! we're far from "Hijaz" Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7503 - September 02, 2019, 09:58 PM

    Abstract of paper cited by Segovia in this footnote: “3 Needless to say, this complicates the alleged “rejection of celibacy” attributed to the Qur’ān as a whole, e.g., by Johanne Louise Christiansen in her otherwise suggestive unpublished study, “‘Stand in the Night, Except a Little’ – The Qur’ānic Vigils as Ascetic Training Programmes,” where she points to the plausible thematic connection of the quranic vigils with Syrian monasticism – which I shall further explore in this paper – while simultaneously maintaining, however, a conventional (Meccan) setting for them – I am grateful to her for sharing her paper prior to its publication; see also Christiansen (2016).“

    Johanne Christiansen - Stay up during the night, except for a little” (Q 73:2): The Qurʾānic Vigils as Ascetic Training Programs

    https://www.academia.edu/39247327/_Stay_up_during_the_night_except_for_a_little_Q_73_2_The_Qurʾānic_Vigils_as_Ascetic_Training_Programs
    Quote
    In the field of history of religion, the Qurʾān and early Islam often seem to be ignored in discussions of asceticism and cultural evolution. With the usage of Peter Sloterdijk’s definition of áskēsis as ‘training’, this article proposes a new way to understand the qurʾānic attitude(s) to ascetic practices. By seeing the text’s articulations of vigils as two types of ascetic training programs, I argue that a hypothetical chronological development of the vigils takes place, and that this development illustrates a shift from the Prophet’s own extraordinary ‘improvement’ to a more general ‘maintenance’ practice for the ordinary believer. That the Qurʾān calls the believers to participate in such training programs may also explain the text’s divergent approach to other religious traditions’ ascetic practices. Through Sloterdijk’s definition of asceticism, it is made clear that the Qurʾān in its own way partakes in and negotiates the overarching ascetic tendency of its time.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7504 - September 02, 2019, 11:12 PM

    I agree to that. My problem is the link of 2:127 with the Temple mount.


    You are right to have a problem with that because there was no link.

    Quote
    I dont think the link with sacrificial area and temple mount was a general thing. It isn't now, but was it in the 7th C? If you can't prove it for the Arabs, can you prove it for Jews or Christians?


    I guess here you got  confused. The Isaac near sacrifice happened on Mount Moriah ; the Temple Mount is built on Mount Moriah so you have your link.

    The questions you should ask are those :

    1) Do we have any view in muslim traditions that the House in 2:127 refer to an altar or the Salomon Temple on Mount Moriah ?

    2) Do we have any claim or tradition that show Arabs claiming the Temple Mount as theirs or going there for pilgrimmage or viewing this place as sacred ?

    The answers to those 2 questions is no so that say enough on the matter.

    Now, let's look at how does Gallez make the link between 2:127 and the Temple Mount

    - for him, this verse reads like this : "Then, Abraham will raise the foundations of the House with Ismael".
    - his explanations are : the verb "raise" should be read in the future (it is translated in the past by all translators of the Quranic text), the text refers to (re)building something from ruins (maybe but not necessarely but this interpretation is essential to Gallez in light of the link with 2:114) and this verse should be linked with 2:114 that does talk about the previous jewish temples according to him (but the text seem to refer to places of prayer far beyond 1 sacred place)


    So Gallez doesn't provide any rationale that could be possible when trying to link the Quran with Arabs building something on the Temple Mount. He only try and serve his judeonazareene thesis and wants to involve the Quran in it by bending the meaning of the text. He is not the only one doing this  Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7505 - September 02, 2019, 11:37 PM

    So what happened in 638 on the Temple Mount ?

    According to Sebeos, Jews did build their house of prayer on the Temple Mount before before expelled by the Arabs who got jealous.

    But 2 other sources do not mention them and only Arabs, so what should we believe ?

    Let's turn to Robert Hoyland P127 of Seeing Islam as others saw it

    Quote
    That Jews were allowed by the Muslims to live and practise their re-
    ligion in Jerusalem is acknowledged gratefully by a number of Jewish
    authorities, who contrast this happy state of affairs with their exilic
    situation under Byzantine rule:

    The Temple remained with Byzantium for 500 or so years and Israel were unable to enter Jerusalem; whoever did so and was found out, suffered death. Then when the Romans left it, by the grace of the God of Israel, and the kingdom of Ishmael was victorious, Israel was given leave to enter and take up residence and the courtyards of the house of God were handed over to them and they were praying there for a time.   (41)


    (41) Thus Salman ben Yeruhim (wr. ca. 950) in his Judaeo-Arabic commentary on Psalm 30 (text given by Mann, Jews under the Fatimids, 1.46 n. 1). Further discussion and references are given in ibid., 1.42-47, and by Gil, History of Palestine, 65-74; see also the entry on "Jewish Texts" in Chapter 10 below.


    This source also has the Muslims evict the Jews from their place of prayer, though the reason is somewhat different: "Then news of them went up to the Ishmaelite king, how they were engaging in shameful
    and riotous behaviour, wine-drinking and drunkenness, and calumny; so he banished them to one of the gates."


     Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7506 - September 03, 2019, 12:01 AM

    Other thoughts :

    - there is no story in the whole Jewish writings that refer to Abraham and Ismael building something together so this entry in the Quranic text , that does really heavily on Jewisjh litterature, is highly suspect,

    - verse 125 & 126 don't rhyme with previous verses, within each other and with 127 so their positionning here is also highly suspect,

    - verse 125 could rhyme with previous verses but it would mean that "and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer]" is an addition to the original text,

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7507 - September 03, 2019, 12:22 AM

    You are right to have a problem with that because there was no link.


    Well... Wink

    Quote
    I guess here you got  confused. The Isaac near sacrifice happened on Mount Moriah ; the Temple Mount is built on Mount Moriah so you have your link.


    Temple is built on Mount Moriah, according to Jewish tradition... It could be only legend, but what but what matters is what it believed, nothing else...


    Quote
    The questions you should ask are those :

    1) Do we have any view in muslim traditions that the House in 2:127 refer to an altar or the Salomon Temple on Mount Moriah ?


    Muslim traditions will never say that "Muhammad" have read Jewish tradition, all people around would have laughed; accusing him to be a plagiarist, and Muslims to be liars...

    Quote
    2) Do we have any claim or tradition that show Arabs claiming the Temple Mount as theirs or going there for pilgrimage or viewing this place as sacred ?


    Of course not. Muslim tradition place Arabs only in the peninsula and nowhere else. To drive far away from all the influences of Biblical stuff.


    Quote
    Now, let's look at how does Gallez make the link between 2:127 and the Temple Mount

    - for him, this verse reads like this : "Then, Abraham will raise the foundations of the House with Ismael".
    - his explanations are : the verb "raise" should be read in the future (it is translated in the past by all translators of the Quranic text), the text refers to (re)building something from ruins (maybe but not necessarily but this interpretation is essential to Gallez in light of the link with 2:114) and this verse should be linked with 2:114 that does talk about the previous jewish temples according to him (but the text seem to refer to places of prayer far beyond 1 sacred place)
    So Gallez doesn't provide any rationale that could be possible when trying to link the Quran with Arabs building something on the Temple Mount. He only try and serve his judeonazareene thesis and wants to involve the Quran in it by bending the meaning of the text. He is not the only one doing this  Wink


    So what Wink I do not link anything with 2:114. As I said,  I take just his idea of 2:127. I already said why in details...it has nothing to see (of course...) with his judeonazareene thesis... I think all had understood that... Except you Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7508 - September 03, 2019, 12:30 AM

    Other thoughts :

    - there is no story in the whole Jewish writings that refer to Abraham and Ismael building something together so this entry in the Quranic text , that does really heavily on Jewisjh litterature, is highly suspect,


    Nobody has never said that (TM) Wink

    Quote
    - verse 125 & 126 don't rhyme with previous verses, within each other and with 127 so their positioning here is also highly suspect,


    I'm wondering what is not highly suspect in the Quran... (yawn...)

    Quote
    - verse 125 could rhyme with previous verses but it would mean that "and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer]" is an addition to the original text,


    Of course Wink
    But where is the material attestation of this addition?
    Nowhere I'm afraid...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7509 - September 03, 2019, 12:33 AM

    So what happened in 638 on the Temple Mount ?

    According to Sebeos, Jews did build their house of prayer on the Temple Mount before before expelled by the Arabs who got jealous.

    But 2 other sources do not mention them and only Arabs, so what should we believe ?

    Let's turn to Robert Hoyland P127 of Seeing Islam as others saw it
     Wink


    2-1 = I win. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7510 - September 03, 2019, 01:57 AM


    Of course not. Muslim tradition place Arabs only in the peninsula and nowhere else. To drive far away from all the influences of Biblical stuff.


    As Arabs did adhere to their story as son of Ismael long before Islam, I was here asking if within those traditions arose the belief among Arabs that the Temple Mount has any significance to them but history tell us no. Their cult practice only focused on Abraham and his whereabouts in the Sinai. You didn't see this (again) like you haven't understood that any tradition to try and link those Arabs outside the Sinai (e.g. like Mecca) is a total fabrication.

    Quote
    Except you Wink


    I know that but as you said you owed your rationale to Gallez, I just wanted to highlight that his attempt at proving something has no more solid ground than yours. They are just opinions not facts.

    Quote
    2-1 = I win.


    I don't think you read nor understood the full quotation of Hoyland but you are stuck with your thesis so I understand you don't want to change it after buying it for so long.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7511 - September 03, 2019, 08:33 AM

    Of course not. Muslim tradition place Arabs only in the peninsula and nowhere else. To drive far away from all the influences of Biblical stuff.

    Quote
    As Arabs did adhere to their story as son of Ishmael long before Islam, I was here asking if within those traditions arose the belief among Arabs that the Temple Mount has any significance to them but history tell us no.


    637 is the first time Arabs are in charge- alone. Before, they were submitted to Romans and Persians. As sons of Ishmael, therefore Abraham, they have (for me...) heard necessarily  stories about what was become their history therefore it is perfectly rationale that one way or another the Temple Mount had significance as such.

    Quote
    Their cult practice only focused on Abraham and his whereabouts in the Sinai.

     

    They were taught by Jews to "worship" Abraham, without knowing what he was, did , etc.? Without knowing its history? And you want to be credible here?

    Quote
    I know that but as you said you owed your rationale to Gallez,


    In fact I had totally forgotten Gallez idea. I got the same one (link between 2:127 and 637) I arrived to this by a (totally) different way and at this moment it made me remember that Gallez had more or less the same idea. I checked and I realize that, putting aside the rest of his thesis, we had had the same idea about the link. And the rest (of my work...) corroborate this link; it would have not, I would  have abandoned it. I abandoned some stuff that I thought, I'm not like you... Wink
    I thought firmly that Muhammad existed.I have abandoned this story.
    Quote
    I just wanted to highlight that his attempt at proving something has no more solid ground than yours. They are just opinions not facts.


    Nope. You have opinions.You. Do not project on others what you are.
    What I have are sources and logical deductions from them. It is the difference between someone who is trained, and someone who is not. Me and you.

    Quote
    I don't think you read nor understood the full quotation of Hoyland

    I read them. I consider that he is not convincing on this, as he is not on many things; all in all, Hoyland (for me...) is a mediocre scholar.
     
    Quote
    but you are stuck with your thesis so I understand you don't want to change it after buying it for so long.

     Do not project on others what you are. Contrary to you I'm able to change my views, I did it many times. For this, I need arguments.
    You do not have them yet. And view these years, I'm rather pessimist that you have ones one day. But one never knows... Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7512 - September 03, 2019, 10:12 AM

    They were taught by Jews to "worship" Abraham, without knowing what he was, did , etc.? Without knowing its history? And you want to be credible here?


    I don't understand what you are saying but do you have examples of Arabs worshipping Abraham outside the Sinai region where he lived and dwelt (apart from Shechem of course) ? The answer is no.

    Quote
    What I have are sources and logical deductions from them. It is the difference between someone who is trained, and someone who is not. Me and you.


    What I can see is that logical deductions is another word for opinion/interpretation so you can be trained the way you want, that won't save you from your current bias. They didn't teach this when you did your scholar training ? Surprising.

    Quote
    I read them.


    You haven't read them because, if you had, you wouldn't have implied that 2 sources against 1 win as he does bring a second source of top of Sebeos so it is 2 against 2.

    Quote
    For this, I need arguments.

    Originally my message was for Mundi ; you are stuck in your thesis and you won't change ; it is too late.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7513 - September 03, 2019, 10:43 AM

    Quote
    I don't understand what you are saying


    It is yet clear... Wink

    Quote
    but do you have examples of Arabs worshipping Abraham outside the Sinai region where he lived and dwelt (apart from Shechem of course) ? The answer is no.


    I have examples of contact with Jews in Palestine. It's enough for me.they taught them of Abraham.

    Quote
    What I can see is that logical deductions is another word for opinion/interpretation so you can be trained the way you want, that won't save you from your current bias.They didn't teach this when you did your scholar training ? Surprising. 


    Do no project on others what you are.

    Quote
    You haven't read them because, if you had, you wouldn't have implied that 2 sources against 1 win as he does bring a second source of top of Sebeos so it is 2 against 2.


    Ok. So what? Did Hoyland have criticized these sources and decided what was the real version for him with some arguments ? To my knowledge, he did not. Why? Because it does not interest him. Why? It does not see the importance of this event. Why? Because he is a great believer .Therefore this event is not important for him he has no reason to work on it.
    Quote
    Originally my message was for Mundi


    Oops! If you does not want that I read your public message in the forum, message him privately
    Quote
    you are stuck in your thesis and you won't change 


    You do not know my thesis; nobody knows apart some friends who are not (at all lol) interested in the topic.
    You would read my thoughts then? Like Arabs read the ones of the Jews to "worship" Abraham in Sinai without reading the ones about the Temple?
    "Guys, guys! stop reading here! Go out! You must only know about Abraham! To "worship" him! Not the Temple!"
    Quote
    it is too late.

    With you, surely Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7514 - September 03, 2019, 12:21 PM

    Hmm.. I guess i need to read these..





     I must read & remember All   .. that is a tough job..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7515 - September 03, 2019, 02:29 PM


    I have examples of contact with Jews in Palestine. It's enough for me.they taught them of Abraham.


    Where they met doesn't matter. My question to you is do we have sources telling us that Arabs developped a worship for Abraham on Mount Moriah ? The answer is no but that is perfectly logical because Mount Moriah is connected with Abraham and Isaac not Abraham and Ismael. Also, we know that, at the time of the Arab conquest, there is a reference to the Dome of Abraham that is located in the desert and that is a sacre place for the Arabs.

    Now it doesn't mean that this new focus could not have developped close to those "invasions", and actually that is what Sebeos is explaining. Is he right ? well to each one his opinion on that matter.

    Quote
    Ok. So what? Did Hoyland have criticized these sources and decided what was the real version for him with some arguments ? To my knowledge, he did not. Why? Because it does not interest him. Why? It does not see the importance of this event. Why? Because he is a great believer .Therefore this event is not important for him he has no reason to work on it.


    He did criticize the reliability of Sebeos as a source in his book Islam as Others saw it ; his review is located after the text that I quoted from his book. It seems you haven't read him.

    Quote
    nobody knows apart some friends who are not (at all lol) interested in the topic.


    I know it relies on Arabs invaders coming with some Quranic texts from which they will spread the first stories of Muhammad and from which they will find their rationale to build on the Temple Mount. So having those texts is important as an assumption for you, an assumption that is backed up by no proof.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7516 - September 03, 2019, 03:42 PM

    Quote
    Where they met doesn't matter. My question to you is do we have sources telling us that Arabs developped a worship for Abraham on Mount Moriah ?


    The source is a device called : "brain" which deducts the sources. Moreover, there is nothing to see with a "worship" of Abraham in 637 episode. You amalgamate 637 with what says Anastasius of Sinai : nothing to see.

    Quote
    Mount Moriah is connected with Isaac not Abraham


    One have to read it to believe it.
    Quote
    this new
    there is a reference to the Dome of Abraham that is located in the desert and that is a sacred place for the Arabs.


    So what? Does it prevent my deduction about Q 2:127 and 637. At all.

    Quote
    Now it doesn't mean that focus could not have developed close to those "invasions",


    New focus on what? What is "new" here?

    Quote
    and actually that is what Sebeos is explaining.

     

    I do not see what you're talking about.
    Quote
    Is he right ?


    About?

    Quote
    He did criticize the reliability of Sebeos as a source in his book Islam as Others saw it ; his review is located after the text that I quoted from his book. It seems you haven't read him.


    I pointed the 637 episode, nothing else.

    Quote
    I know it relies on Arabs invaders coming with some Quranic texts


    Yes.

    Quote
    and from which they will find their rationale to build on the Temple Mount.


    From 2:127, yes.

    I do not call this a "thesis". I call this an interesting point, because it corroborates points that I was making at that time (that is why I have, without doubt, remembered that Gallez said something about that). You do not bring any argument to counter it. I had the time to reflect on it, until now there is nothing which have changed this deduction.
    Quote
    So having those texts is important as an assumption for you, an assumption that is backed up by no proof.


    Worst than that. They could have built in 637 without 2:127. As they were Biblicized since ages.
    But the common point between what they did and 2:127 makes me think that they had this passage in hand, and that is why they did it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7517 - September 03, 2019, 06:32 PM

    Articles by Kevin van Bladel:

    Literatures in the Languages of Arabia in Late Antiquity

    https://www.academia.edu/37401809/van_Bladel_2018_Literatures_in_Arabian_Languages_in_Late_Antiquity_.pdf


    The Arabic Reception of Late Antique Literature

    https://www.academia.edu/37401411/van_Bladel_2018_The_Arabic_Reception_of_Late_Antique_Literature.pdf


    Arabicization, Islamization, and the Colonies of the Conquerors

    https://www.academia.edu/37648387/van_Bladel_2018_with_English_original_Arabisering_islamisering_en_de_kolonies_van_de_veroveraars.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7518 - September 03, 2019, 07:06 PM

    Zayde Antrim - Review of Harry Munt, The Holy City of Medina

    https://www.academia.edu/37274380/Review_of_Harry_Munt_The_Holy_City_of_Medina_2014_
    Quote
    Munt finds that the promotion of a sacred topography linked to the life and death of the Prophet in Medina was an effective strategy employed by the early ʿAbbasid caliphs to substantiate their claims to represent the family of the Prophet in the face of ʿAlid dissent and by those he calls, after Christopher Melchert, “traditionist-jurisprudents” in their bid to pin legal and, therefore more broadly, religious authority to the primacy of the hadith. This argument is persuasive and acts as a corrective to the tendency to understand “place” in the early Islamic world (merely) in terms of local pride or regional rivalry. Instead, these were compelling questions of trans-regional significance, which were hotly debated by Muslims across schools of jurisprudence and sectarian divisions. The process by which an oasis settlement in west-central Arabia became “the Prophet’s city” over the course of the first to third/seventh to ninth centuries sheds light on wider issues of religious and political authority in Islam.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7519 - September 03, 2019, 10:37 PM

    Nicolai Sinai - Muḥammad as an Episcopal Figure

    https://www.academia.edu/36104239/_Muḥammad_as_an_Episcopal_Figure_Arabica_65_2018_1_30
    Quote
    The Medinan stratum of the Qurʾān ascribes to Muḥammad a noticeably elevated status and a far wider range of functions than the earlier Meccan layer. Although this shift may well have responded to, and been facilitated by, historical circumstances, it is nonetheless appropriate to inquire whether specific aspects of it might be drawing on pre-Qurʾānic precedents. I argue that the Christian episcopate, arguably the most widespread type of urban religious leadership in late antiquity, yields a surprising number of close overlaps with the Medinan presentation of the function and authority of Muḥammad. In tandem with this assessment, however, the article also considers important differences between the figure of Muḥammad and that of the Christian bishop. The most important such divergence consists in the fact that the Qurʾānic Messenger, unlike a Christian bishop, does not owe his authority to ordination by an ecclesiastical hierarchy: Muḥammad does not occupy an office that imparts authority independently of the person occupying it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7520 - September 03, 2019, 11:18 PM

    Sinai manages to never puts aside the frame Mecca/Zem zem whereas it is what he does constantly. A truly tour de force... Wink


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7521 - September 04, 2019, 08:59 AM

    Sinai manages to never puts aside the frame Mecca/Zem zem whereas it is what he does constantly. A truly tour de force... Wink




    why only Nicolai Sinai  dear Altara??

     1000s of publications(Not Muslim Intellectuals)by Non-Muslim   from Academics from  universities  did not put that Mecca/Muhammad/Zam-zam  aside for the past 100 years ., They all sang  same song publishing different stories from already published hadith and bit of Quran verses here and there ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7522 - September 04, 2019, 02:03 PM

    "In Sinai's case what is interesting is that he speaks the less possible of the environment but always in the frame Mecca/Zem zem and the core of its article forget it at once. Bishop in Mecca/Zem zem? Christianity leaves tons of scriptures to list the bishopries of Orient in Late Antiquity... They would have forgotten the Zem zem one? Not really plausible, knowing that they list the North East coast ones...
    "What??? East coast ones? "Yes." " But I've never been told that there was bishopries on the North East coast of the peninsula!!!
    Are you a conspirationist?"
    "At all." Wink
     

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7523 - September 04, 2019, 04:56 PM

    Articles by Isabel Toral-Niehoff:

    The ʿIbād of al-Ḥīra: An Arab Christian Community in Late Antique Iraq

    https://www.academia.edu/1961404/The_ʿIbād_of_al-Ḥīra_An_Arab_Christian_Community_in_Late_Antique_Iraq


    Late Antique Iran and the Arabs: The Case of al-Hira

    https://www.academia.edu/4695526/Late_Antique_Iran_and_the_Arabs_The_Case_of_al-Hira



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7524 - September 05, 2019, 05:13 AM

    "In Sinai's case what is interesting is that he speaks the less possible of the environment but always in the frame Mecca/Zem zem and the core of its article forget it at once.

    well not only Sinai's case.. but many cases like Nicolai Sinai .,  who write books/publications on origins of Quran and early Islamic history has THE DISEASE .. .. it is called "APPEASING TO AUTHORITIES"  . It is  there in  every academic field  including sciences .. but this disease is far more prevalent in those folks who explore   history of religions and religious scriptures and paid by the university funds and and  were/are working in UK and US of A...

     
    Quote
      .....................Bishop in Mecca/Zem zem? Christianity leaves tons of scriptures to list the bishopries of Orient in Late Antiquity... They would have forgotten the Zem zem one? Not really plausible, knowing that they list the North East coast ones...  "What??? East coast ones? "Yes." " But I've never been told that there was bishopries on the North East coast of the peninsula!!!
    Are you a conspirationist?"
    "At all." Wink .......................

     well they don't read..  they just write .....  In fact right above this post zeca give  a name of that wonderful  dr. Isabel Toral-Niehoff from Spain, Look at her  publications on that town and people of  "Al-Hira"

    Quote
    ............Among the Late Antique milieus whose religious and cultural patterns should haveexerted an essential influence on the emergent Islamic culture is the Arab principalityof the Lakhmids at al-Ḥīra (ca. 300 until 602 CE). Situated at the West bank of theMiddle Euphrates, at the fringes of the desert, it was located not only on the Roman-Sasanian frontier, but also in close proximity to the Arab tribes of the peninsula. Here,all the elements that define Islam’s Late Antique heritage were to be found, namely,Christian-Aramaic, Arabic-Bedouin, Jewish, and Persian influences. Together with Najrān in South Arabia, it was one of the main Arab urban and political centers of Late Antiquity, a kingdom whose court attracted poets and merchants from all over thepeninsula..................


    I don't think many of these guys from west read such publications .....   
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7525 - September 05, 2019, 05:35 AM

     So Altara  .. are you writing anything in to this series ?

    https://www.academia.edu/17255409/New_Book_Series_Islamic_History_and_Thought



    I think you should write something on that "Mecca -Madina-Muhammad -Zam-zam"  song in to that series


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7526 - September 05, 2019, 08:22 AM

    Also by Isabel Toral-Niehoff

    Imperial Contests and the Arabs: The World of Late Antiquity on the Eve of Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/36486670/Imperial_Contests_and_the_Arabs_The_World_of_Late_Antiquity_on_the_Eve_of_Islam
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7527 - September 05, 2019, 09:04 AM

    Philip Wood - Beyond Ctesiphon: Monasteries and Aristocrats in the Christian Histories

    https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/mobile/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199670673.001.0001/acprof-9780199670673-chapter-7
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7528 - September 05, 2019, 09:31 AM

    well not only Sinai's case.. but many cases like Nicolai Sinai .,  who write books/publications on origins of Quran and early Islamic history has THE DISEASE .. .. it is called "APPEASING TO AUTHORITIES"  . It is  there in  every academic field  including sciences .. but this disease is far more prevalent in those folks who explore   history of religions and religious scriptures and paid by the university funds and and  were/are working in UK and US of A...

      well they don't read..  they just write .....  In fact right above this post zeca give  a name of that wonderful  dr. Isabel Toral-Niehoff from Spain, Look at her  publications on that town and people of  "Al-Hira"

    I don't think many of these guys from west read such publications .....  
     



    They read it, but idiosyncrasies prevent them to use informations. Toral is in Berlin, not Spain and she left the topic of Hira.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7529 - September 05, 2019, 10:19 AM

    Patrik Hagman - St Isaac of Nineveh and the Messalians (scroll down to page 55)

    https://www.academia.edu/4754455/St_Isaac_of_Nineveh_and_the_Messalians
    Quote
    Of all the “heretic” movements of the late antiquity, Messalianism remains among the most mysterious. Was it a movement or merely a label? Was it a heretic doctrine or a way of life?

    The Messalian movement (if that is what it was) has left its most easily distinguishable traces in the texts of its enemies. The anti-Messalian polemics in the texts of Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Timothy of Constantinople and John of Damascus are the most important sources of this kind. Columba Stewart has compiled a list of the doctrinal themes and practices these writers ascribe to the Messalians.

    1. The presence of an indwelling demon in each human soul.
    2. The inefficiency of baptism for the expulsion of that demon.
    3. The sole efficacy of prayer for the expulsion of the demon.
    4. The coming of the Holy Spirit or the Heavenly Bridegroom.
    5. Liberation from passions (sometimes called apatheia)
    6. Claims about visions and prophecy
    7. Avoidance of work, and the desire of sleep.
    8. Excessive sleep and claims that dreams are prophetic.
    9. Disregard for ecclesiastical communion and structures.
    10. Denial, perjury, and prevarication.

    The obvious question regarding this list is, of course, what kind of relation it has to some historical reality. For the purpose of this paper, this list will serve as a witness to a kind of tradition about Messalianism that can be considered to have its own life. Regardless of what the people said Messalians actually thought and did, this list reflects what other people thought and claimed they were about.

    Quote
    I find Caner’s argumentation convincing, but it remains to be seen if this is the kind of Messalianism we encounter in seventh century Mesopotamia. Here, outside the Roman Empire and Church, the term “Messalianism” went through a different development. As Klaus Fitschen shows in his detailed study of the Messalians, the memory of the earlier controversy was used for polemics against later groups. The ascetic movement in Mesopotamia retained its anchoretic form much longer than what was the case inside the Roman Empire, and continued to be an ideal among monks. The existence of people that lived a traditional anchoretic life, without explicit ties to the Church was important for the way the term Messalians was used in a time where the ascetic movement in the region received more solid forms. The most important source here is Babai the Great (569–628) whose duty as official inspector of monastic communities was to combat the teachings of the Messalians in the communities he visited. While it seems Babai was aware of the accusations brought against the Messalians centuries earlier, he still kept little distinction between Messalians and other heretics, such as Monophysites and the followers of Henana of Adiabene, who wanted to replace the teachings of Theodore of Mopsuestia at the School of Nisibis. The term “Messalian” was used to describe a certain kind of ascetic life that did not abide by a rule.6 According to Babai, the Messalians claimed to be able to reach perfection in this world, they disregarded the sacraments and had visions, they did not submit to the leaders of the church. They also claimed to reach apatheia through prayer and they did not read the Bible. They did not work and were not very ascetic.7 Fitschen summarizes that the group that were called Messalians by the end of the sixth century in the East Syrian Church represented a reaction among monks, that would also theologically oppose the mainline of the East Syrian theological tradition.8 This is the background against which Isaac’s polemics against the Messalians should be understood.

    Quote
    My main purpose in this paper has not been to try to establish something about the historical character Isaac of Nineveh. Rather, what this analysis has shown is that the label “Messalian” can have quite different meanings depending on who uses it. Isaac’s texts are almost completely void of direct references to the world existing outside the cell of the solitary. Still this analysis of the arguments used in the texts of Isaac of Nineveh shows that Messalianism was used by those in power to battle certain tendencies in East Syrian Asceticism that actually went back to an old ascetic tradition of solitaries living a life outside the control of the ecclesiastic powers.

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