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Qur'anic studies today
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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7380 - August 25, 2019, 07:17 PM

    Quote
    sects doctrinal dispute


    Judaism and Christianity are not sects.

    Quote
    Yes.Influential generals were influenced themselves by the "wise"men;
    No proof.


    Sufficiently to built in Jerusalem in 637.

    Quote
    Mundi :The ex Arab clients did not. They must have had a strong nucleic religion before expanding in the Byzantine and Sasanian empires.

    Me : Yes

    So you think all those "conquerors" were driven by the same religious doctrina, from the west to the east ? Interesting but only the muslim sources say this to my knowledge.


    Those (and not  "all" like you say), who advise them, yes. For example telling them to build  in Jerusalem in 637.
    That is what one constates.

    Quote
    the Quran was not the source of those writings,


    Of course it is.But as you did not really read the Quran you do not know it.
    Quote
    reason being the difference when one look at Quran vs ahadith/Sira/Tabari and other muslim scholars war history.


    The difference is the fruit of the through time elaboration/invention of the story after what they had been able to extract from the Quran which was rather few things in the beginning.
    Quote
    Because the text didn't  fit the story


    Yes it fits. But as you did not really read the Quran, you cannot know it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7381 - August 25, 2019, 07:49 PM

    Judaism and Christianity are not sects.


    The religion of the Ishmaelites is seen as a sect of christianity by John of Damascus.

    When Trinitarian and Arian Christians verbally abused each other, they do like the Quran ; they are not against Christianity per say ; they are against an interpretation of Christianity ; that is what you see in the Quran.

    Quote
    Sufficiently to built in Jerusalem in 637.


    I know your opinion on this but I was wondering what was Mundi's ; however, I don't see what tell you that they were advised ; it could have come from them (though this is not what I think nor what the sources say).


    Quote
    Of course it is.But as you did not really read the Quran you do not know it.


    You wanted to say that I don't have the same assumptions as you have.

    However, what I mean is that someone didn't look into the Quran and thought "oh yeah it is talking about a prophet so let's write about him by taking items from the book"  ; the rationale was more "we have a book, we need  to build a prophet figure so let's link the 2 though they have nothing to do with each other (like the interpolation in Surah 17:1 shows). The Quran is about texts you can find in christian and jewish writings. In a way your assumption,, if I understood it properly, would fit the existence of a prophet at the beginning of Islam ; otherwise, it doesn't make sense.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7382 - August 25, 2019, 08:33 PM

    Marc,

    Why dont you do a short paragraph on how you see the Quranic author(s)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7383 - August 25, 2019, 09:13 PM

    Quranic author(s)

    From the little survey we did together with Jeez in detecting the attestation of specific sociological surah's  in the very early manuscripts (630?), we can deduce that very early on the Quran was meant to be a daily life guide. For this group of illuminati or litterati, the text must have been important from the start.

    Afterwards, after the Arabic expansion (conquest indeed probably the wrong word), the book apparently landed on the shelf or was meant to be possessed but not used and read. The loss of meaning of several passages and the lack of Quranic expressions in this 1 st C  Arabic world indicates this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7384 - August 25, 2019, 09:23 PM

    mundi says something and Marc S joins the turf
    Quote
    Altara,

    Since the Quran is a very old document and probably already canonized before 630


      
    Dye will disagree with you with Surah 18 about Dhul-Qarnayn. .............


    why only Dye?  every one who read Quran word to word all 114 chapters will disagree that statement dear Marc S.  Even I will disagree.,   But I think mundi is talking different Quran not the one that is made in Egypt...

    So why would dye disagree with that statement of mundi??  do you have any reference where Dye  disagrees some verses of   Surah 18 were added after the year 630?

    well first let us read them.. on that Zulqarnain  or   Dhul-Qarnayn   that is the first thing to do..

    Quote
    83. And they ask you about Zulqarnain. Say: I will recite to you an account of him.

    84. Surely We established him in the land and granted him means of access to every thing.

    85. So he followed a course.

    86. Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O
    Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.


    87. He said: As to him who is unjust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement:

    88. And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.

    89. Then he followed (another) course.

    90. Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It;

    91. Even so! and We had a full knowledge of what he had.

    92. Then he followed (another) course.

    93. Until when he reached (a place) between the two mountains, he found on that side of them a people who could hardly understand a word.

    94. They said: O Zulqarnain! surely Gog and Magog make mischief in the land. Shall we then pay you a tribute on condition that you should raise a barrier between us and them

    95. He said: That in which my Lord has established me is better, therefore you only help me with workers, I will make a fortified barrier between you and them;

    96. Bring me blocks of iron; until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire, he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.

    97. So they were not able to scale it nor could they make a hole in it.

    98. He said: This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it level with the ground, and the promise of my Lord is ever true.

    99. And on that day We will leave a part of them in conflict with another part, and the trumpet will be blown, so We will gather them all together;

    100. And We will bring forth hell, exposed to view, on that day before the unbelievers.

    101. They whose eyes were under a cover from My reminder and they could not even hear.


    well that is the story..


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7385 - August 25, 2019, 10:05 PM

    Podcast: Peter Webb on the origins of Arabness

    https://foreigncy.us/podcast/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7386 - August 26, 2019, 08:59 AM

    Quote
    Dye will disagree with you with Surah 18 about Dhul-Qarnayn. .............


    I checked at the time and these disputed verses are not in my list of "oldest" manuscripts.

    I think it is very probable that whole sections might have been added later than 630. The reasoning is that it is easier to add complete section or "books", than tamper with an already "published"verse.

    I think Jay Smith is right here. Where are these complete Uthmanic Qurans of the 650's? "Muslims"were in power. This continuously is the now islamic heartland. 7th C is not the prehistory

    Like I said before, I think it would be a nice project for a scholar to make a chronological list of the manuscripts and look at controversial late parts like Dhul Qharnayn or added words like Mohammed.

    I'm just doing these ad hoc searches. Up to now, except certain surah's not in the oldest list, I haven't found anything yet to substantiate that certain political additions were made post 630.

    An article that has tried to taccle this issue is Gallez's: http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/alterations-et-codicologie-coraniques.htm

    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Codicology_and_suspected_verses.htm

    It's from 2014. An update would be nice.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7387 - August 26, 2019, 03:17 PM

    Quote
    The religion of the Ishmaelites is seen as a sect of Christianity by John of Damascus.

    None connexion with the fact that Judaism and Christianity are long established movements and no sects.
    My question to Mundi was how he explains the anti Rabbanite and anti Christian stance and was related to the origin of the authors of the texts which is not written (for me) after the conquest as you think.
    John of Damascus has never had a Quran in hand. All what he says are reports from conversations with muhajirun. There is an excellent reason which evidences that fact. Even if what he reports correspond to what may say the Quran, one thing is to hear it from others, another thing is to read it. He might have change his mind about his thesis of an Arian monk, taking into account for example the anti rabbanite stance (which is not at all Arian...) and other topics the Quran raises and which is curiously absent of his  statements. Why his muhajirun  did not speak of this in their conversations? They had, without doubt,  good reasons to do it.
    It is interesting to note that John do not speak about the Jews; it is normal; there is less Jews in the ex roman Empire (Damascus) than in the East  from which originate Sebeos et al. who accused them to have help the Arabs to conquest.

    Quote
    When Trinitarian and Arian Christians verbally abused each other, they do like the Quran


    John had, at least, the excuse to not have the Quran in hand to read it entirely. You do not have it. You did not really read the text you post about in this forum.

    Quote
    ; they are not against Christianity per say ; they are against an interpretation of Christianity ;


    Which interpretation (s?)  Wink

    Quote
    it could have come from them (though this is not what I think nor what the sources say).


    I'm not really sure that military people were alone in the Arab staff to build something (for them, not the Jews...) on the esplanade in Jerusalem; it is not a "military" action, but a cultic one. Of course, all is sometimes possible, but, in Antiquity these roles are for different people. That is why I think that military was flanked by people who knew the cultic stuff to do one time arrived in Jerusalem.
    It is what the sources say; I rebutted all your theories about that; you swallow Sebeos without make the critique of the sources which is a fundamental element of historical methodology. Again, you want the sources to fit your thesis, but they (unfortunately...) did not, when correctly examined.
    Quote
    You wanted to say that I don't have the same assumptions as you have.


    Nope, I say that you do not read the Quran; that is why you have such assumptions. The trend is to say what you say; many parts of it  are written after the conquest. It allows to bypass the incomprehensibility of the text; "Guys! it is like this because it is a layers text,etc".
    It resolves all the issues, end of story. Gallez, Dye, Sinai, Donner, etc. are on this same line.Cuypers is on the other one.
    I think that using this bypass is the solution de facilité.
    Quote
    However, what I mean is that someone didn't look into the Quran and thought "oh yeah it is talking about a prophet so let's write about him by taking items from the book"  ; the rationale was more "we have a book, we need  to build a prophet figure so let's link the 2 though they have nothing to do with each other (like the interpolation in Surah 17:1 shows).


    The one do not prevent the other one. Curious that you did not see that. Apart 17,1 how much  examples have you of the building of the prophet figure introduced/interpoled in the text like 17, 1?

    Quote
    The Quran is about texts you can find in christian and jewish writings.


    Yes. But the Quran do something to these texts. It modifies them, arrange them in its own specific way to express what one can read in it .

    Quote
    In a way your assumption, if I understood it properly, would fit the existence of a prophet at the beginning of Islam  


    At all.
    I though that I had clearly state since 2 long years that I did not think that Muhammad (or anyone else portrayed as him ...) had existed and was at the origin of the Quranic texts. Maybe I did  badly.

    Quote
    ; otherwise, it doesn't make sense.


    Yet it does, be sure of it. But as I did not give (all) on what I build things, it is normal that you does not understand.
    But I said enough (I think...) to show that I have something to say in the topic.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7388 - August 26, 2019, 03:54 PM

    Dye will disagree with you with Surah 18 about Dhul-Qarnayn.


    Is Dhul-Qarnayn necessary to Q 18 and to  the Quran? Make the experience ; reread the all text except Dhul-Qarnayn's. Is it necessary to the Quran. I (personally) think, not at all. It could be certainly an addition. But it doesn't really matter (to me...).

    Quote
    The emphasis on arabness comes later and the use of this language is because of the targeted audience rather than in order to separate communities.


    The emphasis on arabness is first the use of this language. The second is the regular emphasis in the Quranic texts on arabness.


    Quote
    Any proof of what you are saying because I personally think there is no link between the "conquerors" and the Quran, or let's say this doesn't show up in the sources I read.

     

    637.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7389 - August 26, 2019, 03:55 PM

    Marc,

    Why dont you do a short paragraph on how you see the Quranic author(s)?


    Yes, why not?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7390 - August 26, 2019, 05:37 PM

    Quranic author(s):

    I personally think the manuscripts of my "oldest"list are from around 630. That means that indeed the redaction of the Quran must have started latest around 620, quite possibly earlier.


    Arabic: From The geniza we know that Jewish traders had a very developed network going upto Indonesia. They used Hebrew for delicate messages like prices. Could Arabic have developed in the same way?Therefore this defective script which only can be read by insiders would make sense.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7391 - August 26, 2019, 07:03 PM

    Quote
    Arabic: From The geniza we know that Jewish traders had a very developed network going up to Indonesia. They used Hebrew for delicate messages like prices. Could Arabic have developed in the same way?Therefore this defective script which only can be read by insiders would make sense.

    This defective script is used in  512 and 568:
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7392 - August 26, 2019, 08:18 PM



    what does that mean and  do you think that link provides a relation between  origins of Quran  and tri-lingual Arabic dear Altara??

    The Development of the Arabic Scripts: From the Nabatean Era to the First Islamic Century.   by Beatrice Gruendler.,   Harvard Semitic Studies 43, Atlanta: Scholars Press 1993

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7393 - August 26, 2019, 08:41 PM

    Quote
    This defective script is used in  512 and 568:



    I know that the Arabic script existed already in the 6th C. But like Yeez asks, what kept this script alive to finally get into the Quran? No known administration was using it. The 6 th C arabic script is found in the Byzantine empire where this script is not knowingly used in administration or religion.

    So I wonder, who kept it alive? Traders? Just a guess but does someone have a better suggestion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7394 - August 26, 2019, 09:32 PM

    Quote
    Therefore this defective script which only can be read by insiders would make sense.

    Quote
    So I wonder, who kept it alive?


    1/It was a public, readable,  but (very) defective script : see the inscriptions above.
    2/One can think to religious circles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7395 - August 27, 2019, 12:38 AM

    Marc,

    Why dont you do a short paragraph on how you see the Quranic author(s)?


    Does it really matter who they were ?

    I mean did they inspire the revolt in the west ? the answer is no.
    Did they inspire the revolt in the east ? The answer is no.
    Does the Sira, the Sunna come from the Quran ? The answer is no
    Do the Sunni, the Shi'ite, the Sufi,etc,etc doctrina come from the Quran ? The answer is no (the Mahdi , the crucifixion of Jesus demonstrate this).

    Now, if you look at the text, what do you see :

    - the first thing that struck one is the strong jewish component in it ; it is not the stories but the fact that, unlike the chrsitian Bible, the Quran heavily really on Talmud and Midrashim,
    - but it does also include some christian items though it does criticize orthodoxy and some of the items belong to folk oral tale

    So how did such a mix did happen ? One can only elaborate assumptions so :

    1) you can use Gallez's
    2) or you can adhere to AJ Deus's
    3) or think that these were texts that did evolve when the related audience converted from some kind of judaism to some sort of judaic christianity
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7396 - August 27, 2019, 12:55 AM

    mundi says something and Marc S joins the turf  
    why only Dye?  
    So why would dye disagree with that statement of mundi??  do you have any reference where Dye  disagrees some verses of   Surah 18 were added after the year 630?



    To make a long story short :

    - the story of Dhul-Qarnayn is linked by many scholars to the Syriac Legend of Alexander the Great,
    - this Syriac Legend was written to emphasize Heraclius achievements when he defeated the Sassanian empire so in 630.,
    - therefore it couldn't have been included in the Quran prior to 630.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7397 - August 27, 2019, 02:55 AM

    None connexion with the fact that Judaism and Christianity are long established movements and no sects.

    Christianity is a sect coming originally from Judaism but you missed the point here. I am talking about doctrinal disputes/differences within those 2 religions and I use the word sect in its primary sense.

    Quote
    My question to Mundi was how he explains the anti Rabbanite and anti Christian stance and was related to the origin of the authors of the texts which is not written (for me) after the conquest as you think.


    I never said that. I just objected to the fact of saying it was canonized before 630 as we can see evidence of additions after that date, not to mention ones we might not see, and C14 dating is not waterproof. Did those additions represent 1%, 5%, 20%, 50% of the Quranic text ? No one can say but only speculate.

    Quote
    John of Damascus has never had a Quran in hand. All what he says are reports from conversations with muhajirun. ................................


    It doesn't matter. I just wanted to highlight that it could be seen as an offshoot and therefore belonging to the same "family" though being illigetimate.

    Quote
    Which interpretation (s?)  Wink


    Read the Quran.  Afro

    Quote
    Nope, I say that you do not read the Quran; that is why you have such assumptions.


    You didn't pick up my irony here. Unless you have actual facts, all your statements are assumptions. You pretend to understand texts, I question your ability to do so in light of this.


    Quote
    The trend is to say what you say; .......................
    I think that using this bypass is the solution de facilité.


    But that is not what I am saying nor my line of thought

    Quote
    The one do not prevent the other one. Curious that you did not see that.


    You are right but, as the Quran has nothing to do with Muhammad contrary to what the muslim tradition wants us to believe, (Surah Al Massad doesn't refer to any Abu Lahab character in the Quranic text).

    Quote
    Apart 17,1 how much  examples have you of the building of the prophet figure introduced/interpoled in the text like 17, 1?


    Rather than interpolations of which one can speculate, this is more obvious contradictions between the Quranic text and its intepretation by muslim that got me to the conclusion that there was a need to link 2 separate items, the Quran and a prophet figure.

    Quote
    At all.
    I though that I had clearly state since 2 long years that I did not think that Muhammad (or anyone else portrayed as him ...) had existed and was at the origin of the Quranic texts. Maybe I did  badly.


    You did express it well regarding your view on the historicity of Muhammad. I guess my point here is to say you seem to imply that if someone read the Quran, he will see mention of a prophet; I totally disagree.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7398 - August 27, 2019, 03:04 AM

    Is Dhul-Qarnayn necessary to Q 18 and to  the Quran? Make the experience ; reread the all text except Dhul-Qarnayn's. Is it necessary to the Quran. I (personally) think, not at all. It could be certainly an addition. But it doesn't really matter (to me...)


    Your opinion doesn't matter here as you are not the author of the text for whom it did matter and therefore he added it.

    Quote
    The second is the regular emphasis in the Quranic texts on arabness.

    Examples ?

    Quote
    637.


    As we say in French, the first cuckoo does not necessarily indicate the arrival of spring (provided of course your interpretation is correct),

    Any other examples ?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7399 - August 27, 2019, 03:05 AM


    So I wonder, who kept it alive? Traders? Just a guess but does someone have a better suggestion?


    Monasteries
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7400 - August 27, 2019, 06:10 AM

    Quote
    Quote from: mundi on Yesterday at 08:41 PM

    So I wonder, who kept it alive? Traders? Just a guess but does someone have a better suggestion?


    Monasteries


    Marc,

    Is your answer "monastery"only apply to the script being kept alive?

    The Quranic author(s) have a wordly side that doesn't match the monastic milieu for authorship. That's why I thought of a martyrium as nucleus for the Quranic ideology. That would be a setting bringen religious and lay people together, with a mecenas on top of that to provide the money...

    There is so much non-monastic in the Quran. All the guidelines on women, marriage, polygamy, concubines point to men of the world trying to set out new rules of engagement for their lives. So why would this trader milieu not be a n option?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7401 - August 27, 2019, 12:30 PM

    Marc S  says this let me highlight it 
    Your opinion doesn't matter here as you are not the author of the text for whom it did matter and therefore he added it.

    and Marc S Aurelius .. the emperor says that to  Altara the scribe (( supposed to write a book ..NOT SURE WHEN  finmad)) anyway the sequence of those Marc S words are
    Quote
    Dye will disagree with you with Surah 18 about Dhul-Qarnayn. 

    Is Dhul-Qarnayn necessary to Q 18 and to  the Quran? Make the experience ; reread the all text except Dhul-Qarnayn's. Is it necessary to the Quran. I (personally) think, not at all. It could be certainly an addition. But it doesn't really matter (to me...).


    dear Marc S Opinions of people who are in the field does matter   unless you are a professor at Princeton and every one is Post Doc   paid by your grants   Cheesy., ,  So .. what folks say  does matter and  I am sure  Dye will  not say those words even if he disagrees what Altara saying.,

    And  in fact the way to analyze Quran is the way Altara is looking in to the   origins of Quran.. Unfortunately Altara  has not published / and  is not publishing..  he is just saying    finmad  HE NEED TO  PUBLISH  even if it is just 5 page publication....


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7402 - August 27, 2019, 01:25 PM

    Does it really matter who they were ?


    Well, I thought that it was (at least) one of the important topic here (but maybe I miss the point hahaha!)
    Quote
    I mean did they inspire the revolt in the west ? the answer is no.
    Did they inspire the revolt in the east ? The answer is no.


    When Muslims believe that it was the Muhammad predication (therefore the Quran) who inspired the revolts, they're wrong then?

    Quote
    Does the Sira,come from the Quran ? The answer is no


    The response is yes. You did not read the Quran.

    Quote
    Do the Sunni, the Shi'ite, the Sufi,etc,etc doctrina come from the Quran ? answer is no (the The Mahdi , the crucifixion of Jesus demonstrate this)


    1/Interesting; they are yet not really troubled to read the Quran in their mosques even if their doctrine does not come from it Wink
    The Mahdi is the doctrine of Islam? Wink

    Quote
    Now, if you look at the text, what do you see :

    - the first thing that struck one is the strong jewish component in it ; it is not the stories but the fact that, unlike the Christian Bible, the Quran heavily really on Talmud and Midrashim,


    Yes. How do you explain the anti Rabbanite stance then? Do you have an explication?
    Apart  your "sectarian dispute" which means rather meagre as explication... (I forgot : "Does it really matter?" ) hahaha !

    Quote
    - but it does also include some christian items though it does criticize orthodoxy and some of the items belong to folk oral tale

    So how did such a mix did happen ? One can only elaborate assumptions so :

    1) you can use Gallez's


    The layers theory.

    Quote
    2) or you can adhere to AJ Deus's


    If I remember correctly, Jews disputes ? I'm not a specialist of AJ Deus

    Quote
    3) or think that these were texts that did evolve when the related audience converted from some kind of judaism to some sort of judaic christianity


    Texts evolves without adding layers then? Wink


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7403 - August 27, 2019, 03:45 PM

    Marc,

    Is your answer "monastery"only apply to the script being kept alive?

    The Quranic author(s) have a wordly side that doesn't match the monastic milieu for authorship. That's why I thought of a martyrium as nucleus for the Quranic ideology. That would be a setting bringen religious and lay people together, with a mecenas on top of that to provide the money...

    There is so much non-monastic in the Quran. All the guidelines on women, marriage, polygamy, concubines point to men of the world trying to set out new rules of engagement for their lives. So why would this trader milieu not be a n option?


    I would assume that in a trading milieu that script would have been used and therefore you would have found documents that can help to narrow down its origin. A religious environment seems much better.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7404 - August 27, 2019, 03:54 PM

    I am talking about doctrinal disputes/differences within those 2 religions and I use the word sect in its primary sense.



    The Quran would be a Jewish vs Christian dispute in Arabic?

    Quote
    Unless you have actual facts, all your statements are assumptions. You pretend to understand texts, I question your ability to do so in light of this.


    In fact you do not know reading.

    Quote
    But that is not what I am saying nor my line of thought


    It is, you speak of texts evolution elsewhere.

    Quote
    You are right


    Of course.

    Quote
    but, as the Quran has nothing to do with Muhammad contrary to what the muslim tradition wants us to believe


    Of course. What you did not get is that the Arabs interprets what is recounted about the figure who is addressed in the text as being a "prophet/rasul"(whether it's true or not.. it is not the topic) It is yet rather clear that it is what they did and you do not even remarks it.

    Quote
    Rather than interpolations of which one can speculate,

    Apart 17,1 you have, in fact, nothing that you can write here..
     
    Quote
    this is more obvious contradictions between the Quranic text and its interpretation by Muslim that got me to the conclusion that there was a need to link 2 separate items, the Quran and a prophet figure.


    I see... It's a (very) wrong method to determine something. The Quranic text is cryptic; each people read it differently then it is rather normal that what they can extract from it, when it get to important things, be contradictory. Ibn Hicham said that Ibn Ishaq Sira was wrong on many points and that is why he rewrote it : it is the perfect example of what I say.
    The core figure is drawn from the Quran, and the rest depends of each imagination and framed by consensus because it was needed by the political power. I think you have a big issue with reading the Quranic text, you're not able to see that there is a core blank figure to whom "God" is talking, and to whom it arrives certain events. it's curious and more not really possible, at least that you do not read the text, what I think.

    Quote
    You did express it well regarding your view on the historicity of Muhammad. I guess my point here is to say you seem to imply that if someone read the Quran, he will see mention of a prophet; I totally disagree.


    Again, you have a serious big issue with this text. You cannot see how people could have extracted the figure (and naming him as rasul/nabi) of someone who is addressed by the speaker of the text.
    It is yet what they've done.
    What do you read usually, novels?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7405 - August 27, 2019, 04:05 PM

    Well, I thought that it was (at least) one of the important topic here (but maybe I miss the point hahaha!)


    Each one has its own assumptions and area of interest. In my case, they don't matter so much but it can be different for someone else but, as I am being asked about my opinion, allow me to give it  whistling2

    Quote
    When Muslims believe that it was the Muhammad predication (therefore the Quran) who inspired the revolts, they're wrong then?


    They also believe that Muhammad flew on a kind of horse with wings, they are right then ?

    Quote
    The response is yes. You did not read the Quran.


    So, according to you, 48:24 relates to the treaty of al-Houdaybiyya then ? The answer is of course no but believers believe the contrary  despite the fact the text on its own doesn't fit the Sira narrative but it MUST tie up at all costs for believers Wink
    And I guess you think surah al massad is about a guy called Abu Lahab  ; well, why not.............

    Quote
    1/Interesting; they are yet not really troubled to read the Quran in their mosques even if their doctrine does not come from it Wink

    So the Quran tell you how many times a day you must pray and how then ? You need to show us where  Wink

    Quote
    The Mahdi is the doctrine of Islam? Wink

    So the Mahdi is not an item within Islam ? It is in the Quran ? please tell us where

    Quote
    Yes. How do you explain the anti Rabbanite stance then? Do you have an explication?
    Apart  your "sectarian dispute" which means rather meagre as explication... (I forgot : "Does it really matter?" ) hahaha !


    It is meagre because you want to believe in something else but I will let you do 2 things :

    - tell us why it is meagre,
    - tell us a better theory  ; oh yeah, we would have to read your book so, in the meantime, we must wait  and think you have the right answer ; that is something I would label meagre.

    Quote
    The layers theory.


    I said Gallez in ther sense of a text ready to be used to preach to a given audience ; it might be altered along the way but it would be minor alterations

    Quote
    If I remember correctly, Jews disputes ? I'm not a specialist of AJ Deus


    Sectarian conflicts among Jews and Christians where their respective texts are combined into one single book.  

    Quote
    Texts evolves without adding layers then? Wink


    You can call it the layers theory.

    You can add a different scenario if you can (yeah I know let's wait for your book  Cheesy )





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7406 - August 27, 2019, 04:07 PM

    Report on the Tangier IQSA conference: https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2019/08/26/report-on-the-international-quran-conference-july-25-26-2019/amp/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7407 - August 27, 2019, 04:34 PM

    Quote
    I would assume that in a trading milieu that script would have been used and therefore you would have found documents that can help to narrow down its origin. A religious environment seems much better.


    Marc,

    The Hebrew in the trading messages and the far away trading posts were only discovered with the Geniza. It is possible that quite some Arabic was used pre-Islam (it needs to have been used otherwise it would have died out) eg on the far away trading routes without anything extant coming to us yet...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7408 - August 27, 2019, 05:02 PM


    The Quran would be a Jewish vs Christian dispute in Arabic?


    Did I say that ? No


    Quote
    Of course. What you did not get is that the Arabs interprets what is recounted about the figure who is addressed in the text as being a "prophet/rasul"(whether it's true or not.. it is not the topic) It is yet rather clear that it is what they did and you do not even remarks it.

    The Quranic text is cryptic; each people read it differently then it is rather normal that what they can extract from it, when it get to important things, be contradictory.

    The core figure is drawn from the Quran, and the rest depends of each imagination and framed by consensus because it was needed by the political power.



    I perfectly know the text is cryptic and, if the readers don't pay too much attention, you can link any story to it, and that Muhammad character developped according to political needs but also religious ones (Talmud and Midrashim were used to tell Muhammad's life).

    What I question, and I said it above but you didn't read me, is that there was one prophet figure and the Quran and the need to link the 2 while you just say there was the Quran with a prophet in it. So now you need to tell me why my assumption is wrong ; it might be but you cannot prove it ; therefore why you go on to say things that everyone know but you bring no proof of the validity of your assumption.


    Quote
    Apart 17,1 you have, in fact, nothing that you can write here..


    And the point is ?

    Quote
    Ibn Hicham said that Ibn Ishaq Sira was wrong on many points and that is why he rewrote it : it is the perfect example of what I say.


    And what you say is he rewrote it because the Muhammad figure didn't tie up with political needs ? Everyone knows this. What is less known is that Ibn Ishaq demonstrate in his Sira that Muhammad is a fake prophet by linking one event with the Quran, and one with a different book. I guess you know which one I am refering to as you read them both  Wink


    Quote
    you're not able to see that there is a core blank figure to whom "God" is talking, and to whom it arrives certain events


    It is a little bit more complicated than what you assume.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7409 - August 27, 2019, 09:04 PM

    ........  Ibn Ishaq ..................
    ................. read them both  Wink.....................


    .................... bit more complicated ..........................




    nah.. it is very simple  dear Marc S.... Read Quran.. Use Quran... through such silly books out of Islam..  did you read that book Marc??

    if you did not.. down load it by clicking the picture...


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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