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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7350 - August 21, 2019, 09:22 PM

    Quote
    well I am one of those guys who question everything dear Altara


    Remember that I'm not H.G. Wells.  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7351 - August 21, 2019, 09:50 PM

    Remember that I'm not H.G. Wells.  Wink

     Cheesy  well you may not be that prolific but i hope your writing on Quran is going to be  as witty as his  Short history of the World   You actually can use a bit of his theme.. such as

    Quote
    ....................The story of Quran origins  is as important as origins of freedom of expression and at present it is as  imperfect as the story of human evolution. Few hundred years ago few men possessed the history or story of Islam and story of Quarn  as word of Allah/god transmitting every word in it through Gabriel to prophet and prophet preaching to  his congregation . But what happened in reality in the beginning is  a matter of legend and speculation. Over a large part of the civilized  as well as UNCIVILIZED world  believed/s and taught to innocent believers  that the Quran  had been created by  Allah and is transmitted   as word of Allah to Gabriel to Prophet . This wonderful and very precise misconception was based upon a too literal interpretation of the  present Quran that is published in Egypt in the 20th century .  Such ideas need to be abandoned   and  the present Quran  as verbatim of Allah_Gavriel_Prophet  chit chat need to be eliminated altogether with a new beginning and with new philosophical  thoughts.... ......"


    you can start something like that and fill rest of your  story dear Altara  ....lol...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7352 - August 22, 2019, 08:25 PM

    Altara,

    How do I see the Quranic authors:

    Since the Quran is a very old document and probably already canonized before 630, it's beginnings probably are to be found latest around the 600's.  I've read somewhere that martyriums were popular at the time, that men came together to discuss "things"and that a mecenas would sponsor. Wouldn't be surprised that this could be the nucleus of a "society", a group of people, thinking out a new theology. Probably at a certain point, Jews and Christians were members, bringing together texts with material of both communities. In the Arab lands, boundaries btw both communities were less strict than in the more organized Roman and Sasanian empire.

    Arabic script must have been kept alive amongst a certain segment of the Arab population and it must have been in an organised manner. It must have been handed down from generation to generation, otherwise it would have died out. This script was picked up by this "society"together with the emphasis on the Arabness as a manner to distinguish themselves from the more mainstream Jewish and Christian religion.

    In the power vacuum that existed as a result of the Roman/Sasanian wars (the Arab clients were not kept under control anymore but grew in strength and confidence), an Arab political tacticus decided to use this "Arab society's" doctrine to form a new identity: not Roman, not Persian. This to rally the troops and lay hands on the spoils to be found in West and East of the Arab heartland. Success breeds success, and after the first victories, more Arabs joined the movement. Some were interested in the new religious text, others weren't.

    Beginning of 7th C was the time of divine written text, so this document we now call Quran (product of this martyrium's scribes) immediately got the status of divine speech. The text was very mysterious, written in a rasm, not many people understood it. This was not important. The books were kept behind locks, they were there, that's all that counted. Only a few "wise"men knew the content and they had the ear of the influential generals doing the conquests.

    Beginning of 7th C, maybe until the early stages of the military campaigns, some verses were added here and there as the need developed, but from the beginning, care was taken not to add to many alterations. That's why certain alterations seem quite obvious. Not much polishing of the text was done bc from the beginning this text had a high status.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7353 - August 22, 2019, 09:32 PM

    Altara,

    How do I see the Quranic authors:

    Since the Quran is a very old document and probably already canonized before 630, it's beginnings probably are to be found latest around the 600's.  I've read somewhere that martyriums were popular at the time, that men came together to discuss "things"and that a mecenas would sponsor. Wouldn't be surprised that this could be the nucleus of a "society", a group of people, thinking out a new theology. Probably at a certain point, Jews and Christians were members, bringing together texts with material of both communities. In the Arab lands, boundaries btw both communities were less strict than in the more organized Roman and Sasanian empire.

    Arabic script must have been kept alive amongst a certain segment of the Arab population and it must have been in an organised manner. It must have been handed down from generation to generation, otherwise it would have died out. This script was picked up by this "society"together with the emphasis on the Arabness as a manner to distinguish themselves from the more mainstream Jewish and Christian religion.

    In the power vacuum that existed as a result of the Roman/Sasanian wars (the Arab clients were not kept under control anymore but grew in strength and confidence), an Arab political tacticus decided to use this "Arab society's" doctrine to form a new identity: not Roman, not Persian. This to rally the troops and lay hands on the spoils to be found in West and East of the Arab heartland. Success breeds success, and after the first victories, more Arabs joined the movement. Some were interested in the new religious text, others weren't.

    Beginning of 7th C was the time of divine written text, so this document we now call Quran (product of this martyrium's scribes) immediately got the status of divine speech. The text was very mysterious, written in a rasm, not many people understood it. This was not important. The books were kept behind locks, they were there, that's all that counted. Only a few "wise"men knew the content and they had the ear of the influential generals doing the conquests.

    Beginning of 7th C, maybe until the early stages of the military campaigns, some verses were added here and there as the need developed, but from the beginning, care was taken not to add to many alterations. That's why certain alterations seem quite obvious. Not much polishing of the text was done bc from the beginning this text had a high status.


    there you go.,   but I DELETE THAT WORD ARAB LANDS..... At that time  there were no  boundaries Arab land.. Christian Land.. Jewish Land etc etc in the present Arabia.,     Anyways  Ha! .mundi wrote another paragraph for your publication    Cheesy  dear Altara  Cheesy  .. you just need to add post from here  and polish it  drop in to a journal..lol..  TO MAKE IT NEW QURAN ORIGINS

    but dear mundi  what happened to those Gibson's Nabataeans  of Arabian peninsula that you in the map??

     https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png

    don't you believe that they were the proto Islamic community??

    I would actually prefer Altara OR SOME ONE writing a paper in support of Quran manuscripts chapters starting from  from Hejaz region/lands of Arbaian peninsula.. for e.g.. this green map

     https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Sinai-peninsula-map.jpg

    https://discoverthetruthdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/hejaz2.png

    and traveling  to southern Arabia   such as Yemen and eastern Arabia through that Zam Zam water  ...lol.... Original Quran authors might have come from sects of Jewish/Christian monasteries  on the bottom of present Egypt's Sinai peninsula  and traveling in that coast line all the way down to southern Arabia .. the present Yemen  or that Oooold Queen Sheba Kingdom...  please see those three maps in the above links

    How about that dear mundi??  Help Altara project please..  Cheesy Cheesy  and read this link

    https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/07/06/holy-ground-jews-and-christians-expelled-from-arabia/

    and ask GIBSON TO READ THE LINK

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7354 - August 22, 2019, 09:42 PM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes.

    Quote
    How do I see the Quranic authors:

    Good.

    Quote
    Probably at a certain point, Jews and Christians were members, bringing together texts with material of both communities.


    And stating anti rabbanite and Christian views? Curious attitude, right? Wink  
    How you deal with that?

    Quote
    Arab political tacticus decided to use this "Arab society's" doctrine to form a new identity: not Roman, not Persian. This to rally the troops and lay hands on the spoils to be found in West and East of the Arab heartland.

    Hmmm...

    Quote
    Beginning of 7th C was the time of divine written text, so this document we now call Quran (product of this martyrium's scribes) immediately got the status of divine speech.


    Interesting.
    Quote
    Only a few "wise"men knew the content and they had the ear of the influential generals doing the conquests.


    Yes.Influential generals were influenced themselves by the "wise"men; when they said : build on the esplanade of the Temple (637) they build without asking question.
    Quote
    but from the beginning, care was taken not to add to many alterations.


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7355 - August 23, 2019, 06:12 AM

    Altara Yeez,


    Arab lands:

    There were client states on the edges of the Roman and Sasanian empires. They might have had different names but I use Arab to make it easier for me.

    Nabatean realm:

    The Arabic script and the Arabic quranic language seems to be heavily influenced by this part of the "nation of Arabs". Doesn't mean the martyrium needed to be there. Sinai, Negev, Jordan was biblical heartland. It only needs a group of intellectual scribes coming from there, living and studying at the martyrium to add this Nabatean flavour.

    Quote
    And stating anti rabbanite and Christian views? Curious attitude, right?


    That's why this martyrium was probably situated rather at the Sasanian end of the ex-client states. Pourasharia argues that the religious landscape of Iran was very varied. I think there was more room to develop this Quranic doctrine at that end of the Arab world. And let's not forget, as Von Siver shows, the Arab clients were out of control in the era we are talking about. So why not have some anti-rabbinic and anti-Christian views in the mix?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7356 - August 23, 2019, 08:00 AM


    Quote
    So why not have some anti-rabbinic and anti-Christian views in the mix?

    Simply because it does not fit. Jews and Christians  amusing themselves to destroy their own stuff? Why would they do that? Can one gives a good reason? I see none.  It simply does not fit.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7357 - August 23, 2019, 08:40 AM

    Quote
    Simply because it does not fit. Jews and Christians  amusing themselves to destroy their own stuff? Why would they do that? Can one gives a good reason? I see none.  It simply does not fit.



    Why not? Every new sect is founded by members adhering an older religion and turning their backs to the old, keeping certain elements, and making something new. As if a once Christian or Jew cannot make something new and become "anti"? look at Stalin, he was a seminarist, he turned to something new...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7358 - August 23, 2019, 10:54 AM

    Quote
    Why not? Every new sect is founded by members adhering an older religion and turning their backs to the old,

     

    About Mani for example, you're right.
    But... Was Mani in a religion or a sect? A sect. A  small group where it was not so easy to go out but doable. Now you're  talking about people coming from long state established religion with numerous people. It is not (at all) the same situation. Does one knows example of Christians and Jews turning their backs and founded something in Late Antiquity? Especially to something in another language which have no literature and a (very) defective script? ("Let's make texts for the Arabs, guys!") I know none.  
    For these reasons it seems to me rather improbable that the gathering you describe could have taken place. Of course there has always been dissidents. But dissidents who wrote down texts in a foreign defective script... it seems to me difficult to envisage it.                        

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7359 - August 23, 2019, 11:45 AM

    As Jack Tannous has shown, medieval sources are filled with vivid reports about the state of confusion on the ground: recent converts from Christianity who requested baptism for their Muslim children; Muslims reciting pagan poetry from the pulpits of mosques because they confused it with the sound of the Quran; small children tasked with leading the Friday prayers because no one in their communities mastered Scripture as well; caliphal missions to catechize new Muslims who had no idea how to pray; and Muslims who sought spiritual counsel at the feet of Christian holy men.
    (Haha, hahaha, hahahaha, etc.)
    https://www.academia.edu/28388644/_2016_Swimming_against_the_Current_Muslim_Conversion_to_Christianity_in_the_Early_Islamic_Period?fs=bw-675816944
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7360 - August 23, 2019, 11:51 AM

    Foreign script language:

    We know there were Christian and Jewish arab speakers. Even it is doubtful that there were Arabs who were not either Christian or Jewish.

    Just as in Europe, adoption of the native languages instead of Latin or eg French in religious matters was often a way to find traction.

    I dont see the problem here. Changing the language is breaking the bond with Roman and Sasanian empires.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7361 - August 23, 2019, 01:45 PM

    As Jack Tannous has shown, medieval sources are filled with vivid reports about the state of confusion on the ground: recent converts from Christianity who requested baptism for their Muslim children; Muslims reciting pagan poetry from the pulpits of mosques because they confused it with the sound of the Quran; small children tasked with leading the Friday prayers because no one in their communities mastered Scripture as well; caliphal missions to catechize new Muslims who had no idea how to pray; and Muslims who sought spiritual counsel at the feet of Christian holy men.
    (Haha, hahaha, hahahaha, etc.)
    https://www.academia.edu/28388644/_2016_Swimming_against_the_Current_Muslim_Conversion_to_Christianity_in_the_Early_Islamic_Period?fs=bw-675816944

    Hmm Altara says  this 
    Quote
    ............. As Jack Tannous has shown, medieval sources are filled with vivid reports about the state of confusion on the ground:   

    ..  and gives link to 2016  Christian Sahner  publication on    'Swimming against the Current: Muslim Conversion to Christianity in the Early Islamic Period''

    I ask you why dear  Altara., I demand why you do that dear Altara??.. why not give the reference from the work of Jack Boulos Victor Tannous?

    But but you, Jack Tannous and Christian Sahner  MUST KNOW...MUST KNOW .. OR AT LEAST YOU MUST REALIZE that there are and there were people like you see here down in these videos in early Islam.. In medieval times  and even today.. and there were women as well as men.....  watch them.. if you need I CAN GIVE videos and names of some 1000 folks since  as recent as 1960...

    Quote


    dear Alatra So you guys need to think more... My own grand father was a convert .. and my Mom also turned in to Islam.. and please give Jack Tannous reference... Are you talking about this book??



    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7362 - August 23, 2019, 03:33 PM

    Quote
    Hmm Altara says  this  


    Nope I quote Sahner who summerize Tannous. Wink

    Quote
    I ask you why dear  Altara., I demand why you do that dear Altara??..


    To introduce the Sahner article Wink

    What I want to express in laughing is very simple : there was no Islam as recounted by the narrative.

    Quote
    and please give Jack Tannous reference... Are you talking about this book??


    Read the article, you have it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7363 - August 23, 2019, 04:32 PM

    Foreign script language

    We know there were Christian and Jewish arab speakers. Even it is doubtful that there were Arabs who were not either Christian or Jewish.


    Of course but it changes nothing to what I say ; speaking is not writing down (well) crafted texts whose the discussions are anti Rabbanite and anti Christian.
    Quote
    Just as in Europe, adoption of the native languages instead of Latin or eg French in religious matters was often a way to find traction.


    We are not in Europe. History are (very) different. Peoples are different and situations as well.

    Quote
    I dont see the problem here.


    Well, dissidents who wrote down texts in a foreign (highly) defective script... it seems to me difficult to envisage.
    Especially at that time; why not many times before?


    Quote
    Changing the language is breaking the bond with Roman and Sasanian empires.


    Breaking with Christianity and Judaism as well? Highly improbable for me; why they would have done that? You do not give clear reason; breaking with Roman and Sasanian empires seems not sufficient for me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7364 - August 23, 2019, 05:09 PM

    Nope I quote Sahner who summerize Tannous. Wink

    To introduce the Sahner article Wink

    What I want to express in laughing is very simple : there was no Islam as recounted by the narrative.

    Read the article, you have it.



    well this is like  " he said.. you said ..i said"  about non-Muslims sources of Prophet Muhammad in early Islam  dear  Altara

    That is VERY HAND WAVING STATEMENT from Christian Sahner  without carefully reading what Jack Boulos Victor Tannous  wrote in his Ph. D. thesis .. It is irresponsible on part of Christian Sahner..

    Quote
    .....................As Jack Tannous has shown, medieval sources are filled with vivid reports about the state of confusion on the ground: recent converts from Christianity who requested baptism for their Muslim children; Muslims reciting pagan poetry from the pulpits of mosques because they confused it with the sound of the Quran; small children tasked with leading the Friday prayers because no one in their communities mastered Scripture as well; caliphal missions to catechize new Muslims who had no idea how to pray; and Muslims who sought spiritual counsel at the feet of Christian holy men.
     
     These anecdotes, scattered across a range of Muslim and Christian sources, reveal an exceptionally fluid world in which it was easy to cross boundaries and still easier to miss the mark on what religious elites came to understand as “orthodox Islam.” There were many reasons to stay within the Muslim fold, but as these anecdotes reveal, conversion did not always instill a deep sense of attachment to other Mus-lims or necessarily endow a rigorous understanding of Islamic belief and practice. In fact, as Nehemia Levtzion has put it, a good many converts entered the community through a process of “passive adhesion to Islam”
    .
    —brought about by the mass conversion of an Arab tribe, for instance, not after a long process of spiritual deliberation. It is this culture, fluid and occasionally confused, that provides the backdrop for our study of Muslim converts to Christianity.....
    ...............


    well I ran so many circles reading such publications on early Islam .. I stopped doing that  and did you Quote this as a statement from Sahner
    Quote
    ...........Recent converts from Christianity who requested baptism for their Muslim children; Muslims reciting pagan poetry from the pulpits of mosques because they confused it with the sound of the Quran; small children tasked with leading the Friday prayers because no one in their communities mastered Scripture as well; caliphal missions to catechize new Muslims who had no idea how to pray; and Muslims who sought spiritual counsel at the feet of Christian holy men....

      or you think it is from from Tannous Ph. D. Thesis??/book/publication ?? well you can read Tannous Ph. D. Thesis from the link in the post

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7365 - August 23, 2019, 08:08 PM

    Quote
    well this is like  " he said.. you said ..i said"  about non-Muslims sources of Prophet Muhammad in early Islam  dear  Altara


    Nope, not Prophet Muhammad in early Islam, but about Muslims.
    For the rest read the Sahner article and the dissertation of Tannous. Both are interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7366 - August 23, 2019, 08:17 PM

    Altara,

    What do you conclude from this doctrinal confusion of early Islam? I guess that the new doctrine was not completely formed yet and probably was in the hands of a few literati (or illuminati?). But this must have been a strong group to keep away from well organised Christianity and expand their own identity.

    Germanic ex-clients ended up taking over the religion/culture of the conquered Romans. The ex Arab clients did not. They must have had a strong nucleic religion before expanding in the Byzantine and Sasanian empires.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7367 - August 23, 2019, 09:45 PM

    Nope, not Prophet Muhammad in early Islam, but about Muslims.
    For the rest read the Sahner article and the dissertation of Tannous. Both are interesting.

    all right i will read it but I WOULD NOT CALL THOSE FOLKS AS MUSLIMS.. If that is the word they used then they are considering folks before Islam before the present book Quran "As Muslims" ....  may be "submitter to will of god  "  or some other word,....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7368 - August 23, 2019, 11:30 PM

    Altara,


    Yes
    Quote
    What do you conclude from this doctrinal confusion of early Islam? I guess that the new doctrine was not completely formed yet and probably was in the hands of a few literati (or illuminati?).

     

    Totally unformed, as attests coins with crosses, etc. Yes was in hands of a strong kernel.

    Quote
    But this must have been a strong group to keep away from well organised Christianity and expand their own identity.


    They have the power. It is largely enough.

    Quote
    Germanic ex-clients ended up taking over the religion/culture of the conquered Romans.

     

    If the situation seems to be the same, it is not (at all) the same. Arabs were not Germans of Clovis for example who knew nothing of the Biblical God. 

    Quote
    The ex Arab clients did not. They must have had a strong nucleic religion before expanding in the Byzantine and Sasanian empires.


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7369 - August 24, 2019, 08:24 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Quote
    The ex Arab clients did not. They must have had a strong nucleic religion before expanding in the Byzantine and Sasanian empires.


    Yes.


    This pre-islamic nucleus doesnt seem to have left a material trace. How do you imagine it? My guess would be a martyrium but you clearly have another view. Can you expand?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7370 - August 24, 2019, 10:51 AM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes


    Quote
    This pre-islamic nucleus doesn't seem to have left a material trace.


    It has left traces. They are in the Quran which is the sole artefact. The study of the text (of course without the narrative) is principiel.
    What does it says? Wink  
    I consider that it does not reflect (as such) historical events (Mecca/ Muhammad/Medina/Kaba/Zem zem) or another so-called real historical events  : both cannot be evidenced, validated, corroborated by other sources.
    Quote
    My guess would be a martyrium but you clearly have another view.


    What I can say is this; considering what I just said about the nature of the Quran, I place myself in a different paradigm from yours that takes into account the longue durée since the 1st c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7371 - August 24, 2019, 01:22 PM

    Altara,

    We see from the Chinese documents that the Arabs seemed to have a well established commercial network with very long arms to the East even in the 6th C. That isn't possible without well organised institutions.

    So my comparison with the Germanic ex-clients and the Arab ex-clients probably is deficient on the level of sophistication a development they had. It is strange that the 6th C Arabs left traces in China, but not in their heartland. But of course, I dont know where their heartland was. Were trace of pre-Islam erased later on not to jeopardize the developing narrative?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7372 - August 24, 2019, 03:18 PM

    Quote
    That isn't possible without well organised institutions.


    You're mistaken; a low level organisation is sufficient.

    Quote
    It is strange that the 6th C Arabs left traces in China, but not in their heartland. But of course, I don't know where their heartland was


    The main heartland is not excavated : Iraq. The East coast of the peninsula under Iraq has plenty of monasteries. Wink

    Quote
    Were trace of pre-Islam erased later on not to jeopardize the developing narrative?


    The narrative was developed by people who knew nothing of the text's origin. As I said to Marc, it developed first in few lines from the Quranic texts and was through time augmented.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7373 - August 24, 2019, 04:44 PM

    Quote
    The narrative was developed by people who knew nothing of the text's origin. As I said to Marc, it developed first in few lines from the Quranic texts and was through time augmented.


    Why was the transmission line cut? If it was the people in power who had the Quran, it was simple enough to transfer the ideas and the history to the next generation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7374 - August 24, 2019, 06:55 PM


    Quote
    Why was the transmission line cut


    You will read it in my book Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7375 - August 24, 2019, 09:26 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1164835856009445379
    Quote
    In this article I compare the Qurʾānic promise of reward for those who die in battle with similar concepts found in contemporaneous Byzantine military circles, and specifically, the idea promoted by emperor Heraclius (r. 610-641 CE) that soldiers might obtain the “crown of martyrdom” for dying on the battlefield...

    Quote
    There is a curious tendency in current scholarship to acknowledge the relationship between the Qurʾān and Late Antiquity while simultaneously rejecting any direct connection between concepts, ideas, beliefs, and stories in the Qurʾān and those found in late antique texts.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7376 - August 25, 2019, 08:48 AM

    Quote
    that soldiers might obtain the “crown of martyrdom” for dying on the battlefield...


    In the Quran  it is written. For Christianity it is a theological elaboration at the service of politics in a (very) specific situation.I'm afraid that there's no real connection here, except by chance.

    There is a curious tendency in current scholarship to acknowledge that one does not have any sources about Mecca before Islam while simultaneously believing the Islamic tradition rejecting any direct questioning of this tradition in order to seek the origin of the Quranic texts. (yawn)...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7377 - August 25, 2019, 02:36 PM

     For Yeez : bibliography.
    Reynolds Syllabus of "Islamic Origins" - Fall 2019 Ph.D. Seminar at Notre Dame
    https://www.academia.edu/40162188/Syllabus_of_Islamic_Origins_-_Fall_2019_Ph.D._Seminar_at_Notre_Dame

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7378 - August 25, 2019, 03:00 PM

    For Yeez : bibliography.
    Reynolds Syllabus of "Islamic Origins" - Fall 2019 Ph.D. Seminar at Notre Dame
    https://www.academia.edu/40162188/Syllabus_of_Islamic_Origins_-_Fall_2019_Ph.D._Seminar_at_Notre_Dame


    that is for me?? really

    Quote
    Books and Website

    The following books are required for this course:

    F. Donner,..........Muhammad and the Believers

    Ibn Ishaq,.............. The Life of Muhammad
     
     .


    well TWO FOLDERS OF THIS FORUM WILL GIVE BETTER TRAINING FOR STUDENTS on  "Islamic Origins"   than anyone's lecture dear Altara., In fact  i would suggest to  GABRIEL SAID REYNOLDS to read through CEMB forum..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7379 - August 25, 2019, 05:02 PM

    Altara,

    Since the Quran is a very old document and probably already canonized before 630,



    Dye will disagree with you with Surah 18 about Dhul-Qarnayn.


    Quote
    with the emphasis on the Arabness as a manner to distinguish themselves from the more mainstream Jewish and Christian religion.


    The emphasis on arabness comes later and the use of this language is because of the targeted audience rather than in order to separate communities.

    Quote
    In the power vacuum that existed as a result of the Roman/Sasanian wars (the Arab clients were not kept under control anymore but grew in strength and confidence), an Arab political tacticus decided to use this "Arab society's" doctrine to form a new identity: not Roman, not Persian. This to rally the troops and lay hands on the spoils to be found in West and East of the Arab heartland.


    What you are describing is the muslim narrative ; that narrative is not backed up by non muslim sources.

    Quote
    Only a few "wise"men knew the content and they had the ear of the influential generals doing the conquests.


    Any proof of what you are saying because I personally think there is no link between the "conquerors" and the Quran, or let's say this doesn't show up in the sources I read.



    And stating anti rabbanite and Christian views? Curious attitude, right? Wink  
    How you deal with that?
    Hmmm...


    sects doctrinal dispute

    Quote
    Yes.Influential generals were influenced themselves by the "wise"men;



    No proof.


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    The ex Arab clients did not. They must have had a strong nucleic religion before expanding in the Byzantine and Sasanian empires.

    Yes.



    So you think all those "conquerors" were driven by the same religious doctrina, from the west to the east ? Interesting but only the muslim sources say this to my knowledge.

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    The narrative was developed by people who knew nothing of the text's origin. As I said to Marc, it developed first in few lines from the Quranic texts and was through time augmented.


    I don't think that is correct. I think they didn't care about what the Quran say. They needed to link Quranic texts and the life of a prophet ; later addition were the consequences of doctrinal and political fights ; the Quran was not the source of those writings, reason being the difference when one look at Quran vs ahadith/Sira/Tabari and other muslim scholars war history. They struggled not to explain the Quran but to fit the meaning of the texts into their narrative.


    Why was the transmission line cut? If it was the people in power who had the Quran, it was simple enough to transfer the ideas and the history to the next generation.


    Because the text didn't  fit the story but they had to link both ; no transmission cut but alteration  of the meaning of the texts on purpose. This doesn't mean that later on some people were not lost when screening through the Quran and trying to make sense of it.



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