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Reply #7320 - August 18, 2019, 03:45 PM

Early Manuscripts:

Up to now, no big changes have been detected in the earliest manuscripts that were propagated through times. Errors yes, but no real changes. (see Brubaker)

For me that is astonishing since we know now through c14 that these manuscripts go back to 650 or even 630. Apparently by this time the distribution of the manuscripts was so numerous that changes were not opportune anymore.

Above concerns changes at verse level. The addition of complete Surah's or parts is a different issue. It might have been easier to say: wait, part is missing, here it is another addition to the Quran to complete it. To assess these possible additions we are in the mode: absence of evidence is not proof of absence...

The formative faze must have occurred then around the 620's. That is early. What were the arabs doing in the 620's?
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Reply #7321 - August 18, 2019, 03:46 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 18, 2019, 02:31 PM
because .. THERE WAS NO Muhammad..

Yes, there was no "Muhammad". It's just an abstract figure to personify the one who is addressed in the Quranic texts.
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Reply #7322 - August 18, 2019, 03:48 PM

Quote
Yes, there was no "Muhammad". It's an just an abstract figure to personify the one who is addressed in the Quranic texts.

Why did they add the word Mohammed in the 620's? Or why didnt they take it out? Mohammed seems to be an interpolation, why do it in the 620s if there was no general named Mohammed?
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Reply #7323 - August 18, 2019, 03:56 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 17, 2019, 07:31 PM
Yeez,

Quote
Sanaa 1, Birmingham/Arab 328c,
Qaf 47, also Dam 1-25.1 and Dam 1-29.1 have all been c14' ed to around 650, and possibly earlier (630). S 61.6 is not found in these manuscripts (see corpus Coranicum). Of course, that could be chance.

Often later additions are suggested, but the manuscripts contradict it. But that at least, is not the case for 61.6.

Nothing proven, but nothing disproven either. That is worth something, no?

dear mundi............Altara and others .. I want to track back bit on those 4+1(Muhammad + Ahamad) verses..

So in those earliest Quran manuscripts... Do we have these verses or NOT is the question No.1

2nd Question is., Did any academic from west publish any paper on those verses??

And thank you mundi for your posts on this subject

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Reply #7324 - August 18, 2019, 03:59 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2019, 03:48 PM
Why did they add the word Mohammed in the 620's? Or why didnt they take it out? Mohammed seems to be an interpolation, why do it in the 620s ~~if there was no general named Mohammed?~~

Oh!.. THERE WERE MANY MANY MUHAMMADS some were generals... or ..Caliphs by the time Quran became a book that we see to day.. 114 chapters with some 6,236 verses ..

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Reply #7325 - August 18, 2019, 04:07 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2019, 03:45 PM
Early Manuscripts:

Up to now, no big changes have been detected in the earliest manuscripts that were propagated through times. Errors yes, but no real changes. (see Brubaker)

Yes.

Quote
For me that is astonishing since we know now through c14 that these manuscripts go back to 650 or even 630.

I (personally) consider that the Quranic texts (not in the codex form) are more ancient than 630. They were (probably) written on papyrus.

Quote
Apparently by this time the distribution of the manuscripts was so numerous that changes were not opportune anymore.

Yes. It means that the rasm have only very few changes with respect to the original texts. Ends of sura + some interpolation (Muhammad?) could have been added before the codex form.

Quote
Above concerns changes at verse level. The addition of complete Surah's or parts is a different issue. It might have been easier to say: wait, part is missing, here it is another addition to the Quran to complete it. To assess these possible additions we are in the mode: absence of evidence is not proof of absence...

Yes, as one does not have the most ancient scripture considering the imprecision of C14. One cannot date the ink.Find a way to date it would be tremendous.

Quote
The formative phase must have occurred then around the 620's. That is early. What were the arabs doing in the 620's?

1/ Maybe earlier.
2/They were waging war vs the Persians. Dhu Qar is one episode of this.
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Reply #7326 - August 18, 2019, 04:11 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2019, 03:48 PM
Why did they add the word Mohammed in the 620's? Or why didnt they take it out? Mohammed seems to be an interpolation, why do it in the 620s if there was no general named Mohammed?

They needed a figure to personify the one who is addressed in the Quranic texts. But... but..."Muhammad" may not be an interpolation as well.
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Reply #7327 - August 18, 2019, 04:19 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2019, 04:11 PM
............. But... but..."Muhammad" may not be an interpolation as well.....................

One of the question that I have is., on the origin of the word "Muhammad" . was it there before Islam.. either in Arabic or other languages that were there before Islam around Arabian peninsula ?

The other important word "Allah" which we see in Quran some 3000 times was clearly present much before the birth of Islam ...

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Reply #7328 - August 18, 2019, 04:35 PM

Manfred Sing - Where Do the Multi-Religious Origins of Islam Lie? A Topological Approach to a Wicked Problem

https://er.ceres.rub.de/index.php/ER/article/download/8283/7634/
Quote
The revelation of Islam in Arabic, its emergence in the Western Arabian Peninsula, and its acquaintance with Biblical literature seem to be clear indications for Islam’s birthplace and its religious foundations. While the majority of academic scholarship accepts the historicity of the revelation in Mecca and Medina, revisionist scholars have started questioning the location of early Islam with increasing fervour in recent years. Drawing on the isolation of Mecca and the lack of clear references to Mecca in ancient and non-Muslim literature before the mid-eighth century, these scholars have cast doubt on the claim that Mecca was already a trading outpost and a pilgrimage site prior to Islam, questioning the traditional Islamic and Orientalist view. Space, thus, plays a prominent role in the debate on the origins of Islam, although space is almost never conceptually discussed. In the following paper, I challenge the limited understanding of space in revisionist as well as mainstream scholarship. For the most part, this scholarship is not really interested in the multi-religious landscape sui generis, but understands early Islam either as a stable or an unstable entity that either reworked or digested the impact of Judaism and Christianity. In contrast, my contention is based on the view that Islam emerged neither “in” Mecca nor anywhere else, but that Muslims’ practical and symbolic actions produced such places as Mecca, Medina, and the Ḥijāz as the central places of Islam. My argument is threefold: Firstly, the production of the Meccan space and its central meaning for Islam were mutually dependant, gradual processes. Secondly, the creation of an exclusively Muslim space in the Ḥijāz conversely inscribed multi-religiosity into the general topology of early Islam. Thirdly, the early history of Islam hints at practices of un/ doing differences, exemplified by instances of sharing, the creation of ambivalence, and processes of purification. Moreover, my contribution questions the way in which research on the origins of Islam has become a meaningful object of knowledge about the “true” nature of Islam against the background of populist discourses on Islam.

Article referred to here: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1163030653312610309

Which side are you on?
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Reply #7329 - August 18, 2019, 07:56 PM

Altara,

Dating ink:

The age of ink doesnt prove the time of writing. I personally have written texts with ink of more than 30 years old... I think it is more likely that a pot of ink is kept on a shelf than a stack of parchements.
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Reply #7330 - August 18, 2019, 08:03 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 18, 2019, 04:19 PM
One of the question that I have is., on the origin of the word "Muhammad" . was it there before Islam.. either in Arabic or other languages that were there before Islam around Arabian peninsula ?

MuHammad/praised is a known word in Yemen inscriptions. "mu" indicate a substantive which qualifies "hammad" which exists alone qualifying the Biblical God.

Quote
The other important word "Allah" which we see in Quran some 3000 times was clearly present much before the birth of Islam ...

"Allah" as such has no real importance since is the name of the Biblical God.
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Reply #7331 - August 18, 2019, 08:04 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2019, 07:56 PM
Altara,

Dating ink:

The age of ink doesnt prove the time of writing. I personally have written texts with ink of more than 30 years old... I think it is more likely that a pot of ink is kept on a shelf than a stack of parchements.

Of course. But at that time, one plausibly think that inks were frequently renewed.
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Reply #7332 - August 18, 2019, 08:07 PM

Yeez,

For 61.6 (Ahmed) the verse is not there in those early dated manuscripts.

For Mohammed it is mor complecated. See my previous response:

Quote
Mohammed verses for the earliest manuscripts mentioned above:

3:144 No mention in any of the early manuscripts
33:40 only present in Dam 1-25.1 (no image available)
3: 2 only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, only partial presence "mh")
48:29 only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, part of verse containing "mhmd"is missing)

The dating of Dam 1-25.1 and 1-29.1 is controversial. These datings are done by the lab of Lyon that apparently dates "too early"

So this little survey leaves room for speculation. In any case no evidence of the verse being present and the word mhmd being omitted. I want to add that for the Dam 25 and 29, no images available in corpus coranicum, so difficult to really check.

I don't know if someone has already set an official chronology of the manuscripts and checked additions or omissions. Brubaker hasn't. He just recorded errors. What the use of that is, I dont know.
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Reply #7333 - August 19, 2019, 08:27 AM

Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2019, 08:07 PM
Yeez,...........................
Quote
3:144 No mention in any of the early manuscripts
33:40 only present in Dam 1-25.1 (no image available)
3: 2 only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, only partial presence "mh")
48:29 only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, part of verse containing "mhmd"is missing)

The dating of Dam 1-25.1 and 1-29.1 is controversial. These datings are done by the lab of Lyon that apparently dates "too early"

So this little survey leaves room for speculation

For 61.6 (Ahmed) the verse is not there in those early dated manuscripts.

For Mohammed it is more complicated. See my previous response:

.................

mundi ., I guess you are getting all that info from islamic-awareness.org.. or do you have any other link ..such as published work on that?? and I wonder whether you have access to these references...

Quote
[1] Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ, 1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islamiyyah: Kuwait, pp. 60-61, Plate 3.

[2] H-C. G. von Bothmer, K-H. Ohlig & G-R. Puin, "Neue Wege Der Koranforschung", Magazin Forschung (Universität des Saarlandes), 1999, No. 1, p. 34.

[3] F. Déroche, "New Evidence About Umayyad Book Hands" in Essays In Honour Of Ṣalāḥ Al-Dīn Al-Munajjid, 2002, Al-Furqān Islamic Heritage Foundation Publication: No. 70, Al-Furqān Islamic Heritage Foundation: London (UK), pp. 620-621.

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Reply #7334 - August 19, 2019, 09:14 AM

Yeez,

I am looking on the site of corpus coranicum. I might make a mistake here and there. Everyone can look it up...

https://corpuscoranicum.de/

You select the surah and the verse. Then check in which manuscripts they are included...
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Reply #7335 - August 19, 2019, 10:15 AM

Quote from: mundi on August 19, 2019, 09:14 AM
Yeez,

I am looking on the site of corpus coranicum. I might make a mistake here and there. Everyone can look it up...

https://corpuscoranicum.de/

You select the surah and the verse. Then check in which manuscripts they are included...

I am glad to see that post dear mundi .,

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Reply #7336 - August 19, 2019, 04:07 PM

Quote from: zeca on August 18, 2019, 04:35 PM
Manfred Sing - Where Do the Multi-Religious Origins of Islam Lie? A Topological Approach to a Wicked Problem

https://er.ceres.rub.de/index.php/ER/article/download/8283/7634/
Article referred to here: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1163030653312610309

that is a good one zeca.... That guy Dr.MANFRED SING.. is new to me .. let me read him carefully

Decline of Islam and the Rise of Inḥiṭāṭ by Manfred Sing

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Reply #7337 - August 19, 2019, 07:34 PM

Quote
...........The whole debate about the “dark origins” of Islam with its two opposing camps and their sometimes polemical tone—represented by the so-called Saarbrücken school and the Inârah Institute around Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Gerd-R. Puin, and Luxenberg on the one hand, and the Corpus Coranicum group in Berlin around Angelika Neuwirth, on the other hand —cannot be dealt with in further detail here...................

That is very interesting quote from dr. Manfred Sing publication.., So we have two OPPOSING groups both from Germany?? one is "Inârah Institute" and other one is Angelika Neuwirth's "Corpus Coranicum" .. how to read/interpret those ooold Quran manuscripts...

Anyways dear mundi I need your help a bit from that site ..https://corpuscoranicum.de/ .. just to test myself ..

Let me take small surah such as Surah 65. At-Talaaq that has 12 verses in it .. here they are..

Quote
1. O Prophet! when you divorce women, divorce them for ~ their prescribed time, and calculate the number of the days prescribed, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their houses, nor should they themselves go forth, unless they commit an open indecency; and these are the limits of Allah, and whoever goes beyond the limits of Allah, he indeed does injustice to his own soul. You do not know that Allah may after that bring about reunion.

2. So when they have reached their prescribed time, then retain them with kindness or separate them with kindness, and call to witness two men of justice from among you, and give upright testimony for Allah. With that is admonished he who believes in Allah and the latter day; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah, He will make for him an outlet,

3. And give him sustenance from whence he thinks not; and whoever trusts in Allah, He is sufficient for him; surely Allah attains His purpose; Allah indeed has appointed a measure for everything.

4. And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

5. That is the command of Allah which He has revealed to you, and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah, He will remove from him his evil and give him a big reward.

So those are 5 verses from that 12 verses of chapter 65. At-Talaaq., And I would greatly appreciate to read what that Angelika gets in HER corpuscoranicum from those old manuscripts ..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #7338 - August 19, 2019, 07:57 PM

Yeez,

On Surah 65:

The surah doesnt seem to be attested in my list of oldest manuscripts. But my list might not be complete. I see that 65 is in Arab 328b. That manuscript has not been C14'ed but it looks old... If 328b comes in the list of pre 650 manuscripts my answer would be the opposite from what it is now.

It's a pity the scholars haven't made a manuscript listed by age. For sure there will be mistakes, but it would be a good guide to do research on later additions and interpolations.
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Reply #7339 - August 19, 2019, 08:17 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 19, 2019, 07:57 PM
Yeez,

On Surah 65:

The surah doesnt seem to be attested in my list of oldest manuscripts. But my list might not be complete. I see that 65 is in Arab 328b. That manuscript has not been C14'ed but it looks old... If 328b comes in the list of pre 650 manuscripts my answer would be the opposite from what it is now. ..

~~It's a pity the scholars~~ haven't made a manuscript listed by age. For sure there will be mistakes, but it would be a good guide to do research on later additions and interpolations.

well I read that crossed out statement as "I PITY THE SO-CALLED QURAN SCHOLARS/ISLAM SCHOLARS " dear mundi ., but thank you for that quick response ...

So .. Surah Talaq.. Talaq and existence of such verses in the early Quran manuscripts is Questionable.. So glad to hear that., For the past 1400 years more so in medieval times ., So many lives of women folks were destroyed by such stupid verses., I AM SURE ROGUES OF ISLAM ADDED PLENTY OF SUCH NONSENSE IN TO QURAN after the death first preacher of Islam that started preaching good stories good verses from whatever bible stories he knew..

any way what is that Angelika Neuwirth doing now a days?? ., So another question to you on another verse dear mundi ..

Quote
1. Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

2. So if he divorces her she shall not be lawful to him afterwards until she marries another husband; then if he divorces her there is no blame on them both if they return to each other (by marriage), if they think that they can keep within the limits of Allah, and these are the limits of Allah which He makes clear for a people who know.

help me out on those two verses and what those ooold manuscripts and/or what Angelika says/said abut them

the first one is from Surah 4. An-Nisaa verse 34., and the 2nd one is from Surah-2 verse 230. I greatly appreciate your input on these oold Quran manuscripts

with best regards
yeezevee

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Reply #7340 - August 19, 2019, 08:38 PM

No luck with 4:34! Definitely included in the oldest manuscripts.

4:34 in Qaf 47 and Dan 1-29.1

More luck with 2:230. Not in my "oldest" list!

I think we need to face it. The Quranic writer(s) might have been enlightened in a few esoterical Quranic passages, but on sociological matters, he/they were clearly not. In fact, the Quran seems to have been a retrogradation concerning women's status compared to 7th c Christianity. Very sad also that so little room is left to reinterpret the literal word of God. Tragic rather.
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Reply #7341 - August 20, 2019, 08:29 PM

The whole debate about the “dark origins” of Islam with its two opposing camps and their sometimes polemical tone —represented by the so-called Saarbrücken school and the Inârah Institute and the Corpus Coranicum group in Berlin around Angelika Neuwirth —cannot be dealt with in further detail here.

Hahaha! a very prudent guy.
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Reply #7342 - August 20, 2019, 11:05 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 19, 2019, 08:38 PM
The Quranic writer(s) might have been ...

Describe us the Quranic writers.
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Reply #7343 - August 21, 2019, 04:27 AM

Quote
Describe us the Quranic writers.

You first!
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Reply #7344 - August 21, 2019, 10:01 AM

As I'm working on it, you will read it. As it it not your case, I think you can say it in this forum. (Unless you prepare something to be published, of course...)
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Reply #7345 - August 21, 2019, 10:16 AM

Quote
Quote from: Altara on August 20, 2019, 11:05 PM
Describe us the Quranic writers.

Quote from: mundi on August 21, 2019, 04:27 AM
You first!

what is happening here? Q & A session??

Well either you believe in this
Quote
.............. that the Quran was orally revealed by Allah to the final Prophet, Muhammad (PBUH), through the archangel ibril over a period of some 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE, when Prophet of Islam was 40 year old guy the alleged day of first revelation[/u] , and ended on 8 June 632 CE, the alleged day of his death.[/i]...............

OR YOU INQUIRE ABOUT ITS ORIGINS ..

And to do that., you can start with either with that King Fahd Complex that prints the present Holy dolly Quran in Medina which you can get it ONLINE or buy it or go to those historical manuscripts ..those 7 Oldest Qurans in the World that we know ..

**************************************************************************************************

Here are those seven Qurans that we know

1. Birmingham Quran Manuscript

alleged Year of Writing : c.568 AD – 645 AD
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Hijazi
Current Location: University of Birmingham, Birmingham, England

2. Tübingen Fragment

alleged Year of Writing : c. 649 AD – 675 AD
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Hijazi
Current Location: University of Tübingen, Tübingen, Germany

3. Sana’a Manuscript

alleged Year of Writing : c. 671 AD
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Hijazi
Current Location: Great Mosque of Sana’a, Yemen

4. Codex Parisino-Petropolitanus

alleged Year of Writing : late 7th to early 8th century
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Hijazi
Current Location: 70 folios at Bibliothèque nationale de France, Paris; 26 folios at the National Library of Russia in Saint-Petersburg, Russia; 1 folio in the Vatican Library; and 1 folio in Khalili Collection in London

5. Topkapi Manuscript
Year Written: c. early to mid 8th century
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Kufic
Current Location: Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul, Turkey

5. Topkapi Manuscript

alleged Year of Writing : early to mid 8th century
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Kufici
Current Location: Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul, Turkey

6. Samarkand Kufic Quran (Uthman Quran)

alleged Year of Writing : c.765 AD – 855 AD
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Kufici
Current Location: Hast Imam Library, Tashkent, Uzbekistan

7. Blue Quran (Uthman Quran)

alleged Year of Writing : c. late 9th century to early 10th century
Language: Arabic
Script Type: Kufici
Current Location: Most of it is located in the National Institute of Art and Archaeology Bardo National Museum in Tunis, Tunisia; 67 folios in the Musée de la Civilisation et des Arts Islamiques in Raqqada, Tunisia; 1 folio at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art in California, USA; and the other folios are scattered worldwide at various museums

**************************************************************************************************

So it is up to you guys .. The readers .. WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN ORALITY OF QURAN or you painfully inquire about who wrote those 7 Qurans and where & when ..

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Reply #7346 - August 21, 2019, 10:17 AM

Quote from: Altara on August 21, 2019, 10:01 AM
As I'm working on it, you will read it. In your case, I think you can say it in this forum. (Unless you prepare something to be published, of course...)

Oh my goodness there is world waiting for that to happen dear Altara... .. but mundi does have a point here

Quote from: mundi on August 19, 2019, 08:38 PM
................... I think we need to face it. The Quranic writer(s) might have been enlightened in a few esoterical Quranic passages, but on sociological matters , he/they were clearly not. ......................

in those three highlighted words...

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Reply #7347 - August 21, 2019, 01:39 PM

So dear mundi help me out in dealing with that
Quote from: mundi on August 19, 2019, 09:14 AM
.....................https://corpuscoranicum.de/.................

you seem to have gone through that site bit more carefully than i did.. ., So here are some 25 chapters of Quran and the number verses in them

Quote
1. Al-Fatihah ...................................................................... 7
2. Al-Baqarah .....................................................................286
3. Aali Imran .....................................................................200
4. An-Nisa’ ..........................................................................176
5. Al-Ma’idah .....................................................................120
6. Al-An’am .........................................................................165
7. Al-A’raf ............................................................................206
8. Al-Anfal ............................................................................75
9. At-Taubah .......................................................................129
10. Yunus .............................................................................109
11. Hud .................................................................................123
12. Yusuf ...............................................................................111
13. Ar-Ra’d ............................................................................43
14. Ibrahim ............................................................................52
15. Al-Hijr ...............................................................................99
16. An-Nahl.............................................................................128
17. Al-Isra’ ...............................................................................111
18. Al-Kahf .............................................................................110
19. Maryam..............................................................................98
20. Ta-Ha ................................................................................135
21. Al-Anbiya’..........................................................................112
22. Al-Haj ..................................................................................78
23. Al-Mu’minun.......................................................................118
24. An-Nur ...................................................................................64
25. Al-Furqan..............................................................................77

So I wonder how many of those above verses you see in that corpuscoranicum ?? more importantly what we don't see in those early manuscripts ??

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #7348 - August 21, 2019, 02:05 PM

Quote
Oh my goodness there is world waiting for that to happen dear Altara...

You won't be disappointed. I wait to the Mundi thought about it...
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Reply #7349 - August 21, 2019, 06:57 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 21, 2019, 02:05 PM
You won't be disappointed. I wait to the Mundi thought about it...

well I am one of those guys who question everything dear Altara ., But I am of the opinion your contribution to the origins of Quran will immensely improve ..much more than what we know now., Off course one publication will not answer every question.. but may be you should think.. Publication + book as you need to counter many many earlier narrative versions on origins of PRESENT BOOK Quran with some 114 chapters and some 6300 verses in it .

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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