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Qur'anic studies today
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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7230 - July 30, 2019, 10:52 AM

    Quote
    i don;t get that.,  what is a  permanent well?


    A permanent well is fed by a source.
    Quote
    OR DO YOU DISPUTE THE EXISTENCE OF THAT WATER HOLE SINCE THE TIME OF ABBASID CALIPHATE?


    There is no source. Zam Zam well is fed by randomly rain Wink


    Quote
    but we must realize there were kingdoms in Yemen /southern Arabia since ages


    The quranic script and the language is not the South one. Wink

    Quote
    i am saying that a possibility exists that   zam zam water well  is serving  travelers since ages  .... much before Islam...


    No travellers were passing through this place because there was no roads since nobody knew that this place existed before Islam. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7231 - July 30, 2019, 01:24 PM

    Yeez,

    Agree that Mecca must have had some elements to make life possible, including a permanent water source. Your argument of sustaining a community for at least 1300 years now, the first 1200 of those with about the same resources than available in the 7th c, is convincing to me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7232 - July 30, 2019, 02:42 PM

    Yeez,

    Agree that Mecca must have had some elements to make life possible, including a permanent water source. Your argument of sustaining a community for at least 1300 years now, the first 1200 of those with about the same resources than available in the 7th c, is convincing to me.

      mundi  i am simple guy just by birth happened to be related to many Muslim folks  yet i just use common sense .. NO QURAN SENSE AND NO QUANTUM SENSE..   Cheesy   so those simple minded folks like you  agree with my point of view   Cheesy

    anyway I must convince Altara on that   but he always talks about Quran.. Quranic sense  ., that is where the problem is..

    So an unrelated question to you .. I am interested in reading this book''

     

    Amazon jungle says  ...........1 Used from $106.87 .,    4 New from $53.44 ......  that is too expensive for me.. I wonder any of you guys read that book

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7233 - July 30, 2019, 03:03 PM

    A permanent well is fed by a source.
    There is no source. Zam Zam well is fed by randomly rain Wink 


    please see this picture and read the link on underground water resources and  freshwater from underground aquifers



    Arabian peninsula filled with Underground aquifers ..... .  in fact Saudi Arabia squandered its groundwater resources .. thanks to AMRIKA AND ITS HUNGER FOR OIL...AND ITS  OIL MOGHULS 

    Quote
    The quranic script and the language is not the South one. Wink 


    Well Altara .. here you have to come out of Islam and come out of Quran ., we are talking different subjects ..lol..

    Quote
    No travellers were passing through this place because there was no roads since nobody knew that this place existed before Islam


    that is not true... Mecca is just a horse galloping distance from the red sea coast line  .. 40 miles from red sea coast ., a two hour horse ride  ..lol..... .,


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KAFMtrq6Xo

    People must have traveled on that red sea coast line much  before the birth of Islam .. before the birth of Christianity and before the birth of Judaism .,  People traveled through the coast lines  for10s of 1000s of years  for different reasons  and that is much before the birth of religion, faiths, cults whatever...... 


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7234 - July 30, 2019, 05:08 PM

    Morris on Gibson again: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1155906428265271303
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7235 - July 30, 2019, 07:42 PM

    Gibson and Morris:

    Morris discredits  the early China mosque probably rightly so. From memory, I remember Gibson citing extensive contacts of pre-islamic Nabateans with China. I wish Morris would have explored that a bit more and given his opinion on that.

    Does anyone know if there is truth in that (early Nabatean-China contacts in some form)?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7236 - July 30, 2019, 09:23 PM

    Yes there is. Chinese texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7237 - July 30, 2019, 09:26 PM


    Gibson:
    “The Nabataeans and Edomites were both descendants of Abraham, and so they had a monotheistic background and were reluctant to put human characteristics onto gods”

    It is with things like that that Gibson discredits himself (yawn...) he is an amateur.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7238 - July 30, 2019, 09:36 PM

    Gibson:
    Quote
    “The Nabataeans and Edomites were both descendants of Abraham, and so they had a monotheistic background and were reluctant to put human characteristics onto gods”

     

    Na...Gibson misspelled there.. it should be Adam... Not Abraham  Cheesy

    Quote
    It is with things like that that Gibson discredits himself (yawn...) he is an amateur.

    he is writing books for movies and documentaries  and trying to sell books.,   .. best folks to buy/read his books are Christians and stories for children... 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7239 - July 30, 2019, 09:42 PM

    Quote
    Gibson and Morris:

    Morris discredits
      the early China mosque probably rightly so. From memory, I remember Gibson citing extensive contacts of pre-islamic Nabateans with China. I wish Morris would have explored that a bit more and given his opinion on that.

    Does anyone know if there is truth in that (early Nabatean-China contacts in some form)?



    Yes there is. Chinese texts.



    Hmm  i didn't know that... the wiki list of early Mosques  ..No china in it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7240 - July 31, 2019, 06:14 AM

    Yeez,

    The China mosque is usually comprised in the list of the 10 oldest mosques. Looking at this list it is surprising how spread out these "10 earliest" are. I don't know if there is an element of truth in these early datings, but if there is, that is a very important issue. That would be an indication of pre-islamic organised activity from the "Arabs".

    https://histoireislamique.wordpress.com/2014/06/15/listedes-premieres-mosquees-au-monde/

    Morris' laughing away of the China mosque is too easy imo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7241 - July 31, 2019, 09:44 AM

    Yeez,

    ..................That would be an indication of pre-islamic organised activity from the "Arabs".

    https://histoireislamique.wordpress.com/2014/06/15/listedes-premieres-mosquees-au-monde/

    Morris' laughing away of the China mosque is too easy imo.


    whose blog is that?? there must be a better reference  along with material dating of  these  early  mosque...   i can not trust such links

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7242 - July 31, 2019, 09:50 AM

    Yeez,

    It is just a list you can find very easily on the internet. There are different lists circulating with different mosques. I dont know if a scholar has written any article on the sense or nonsense of these early datings from China to Inida and Eritrea/ Ethiopia. Is it all BS? Possible.

    That is why this China link Gibson talks of is very interesting. Altara supports it. Any more info somewhere?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7243 - July 31, 2019, 12:09 PM

    Yeez,

    It is just a list you can find very easily on the internet. There are different lists circulating with different mosques. I dont know if a scholar has written any article on the sense or nonsense of these early datings from China to Inida and Eritrea/ Ethiopia. Is it all BS? Possible.

    That is why this China link Gibson talks of is very interesting. Altara supports it. Any more info somewhere?

    I would NOT call them as Mosques., They are just prayer houses of migrated folks., if they were really built  around the years 620 to 680... they can not called as Mosques..   

    Dan Gibson, Early Islamic Qiblas: A Survey of mosques built . pdf  by DA King - ‎2018

    The Petra fallacy   by   David A. King.,  Professor of the History of Science.,  Johann Wolfgang Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main., www.davidaking.academia.edu

     well  this book of Marshall Broomhall   " Islam in China: A Neglected Problem"   which was first published some time in 1910 may tell something about that mosque..


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7244 - July 31, 2019, 12:13 PM

    Quote
    if they were really built  around the years 620 to 680... they can not called as Mosques


    Doesn t matter what they are called. I agree that these early dates seem very unlikely. But has research been done to verify ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7245 - July 31, 2019, 12:55 PM

    Thanks Yeez for the reference!


    https://archive.org/details/islaminchinaane00broogoog/page/n42

    p9 is interesting. The Chinese records claim that Islam entered China under the Sui dynasty 585-601....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7246 - July 31, 2019, 01:25 PM

    Thanks Yeez for the reference!


    https://archive.org/details/islaminchinaane00broogoog/page/n42

    p9 is interesting. The Chinese records claim that Islam entered China under the Sui dynasty 585-601....

    well  these ooooooold books one has to be careful., I  would not consider  Claims in history as facts of history.,  specially when it comes to faiths and religions.,,  we are in 21st century with all the tools to explore Archaeology of theses faiths.,  but lack of direction on part of academics and strong    political forces which oppose exploration of history of faiths  becomes difficult so we hear/read only claims and stories  .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNUr1DR_6rM

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7247 - July 31, 2019, 07:55 PM

    Yeez,

    video 6 in the series:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTFB6iDlOiU

    Reading the twitter criticism of Morris on Gibson, it is interesting to hear Gibson criticising King. Just as Morris sounds convincing, so does Gibson in his criticism. Proves how relative things are.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7248 - August 01, 2019, 09:38 AM

    Yeez,

    video 6 in the series:
    ......................... Just as Morris sounds convincing, so does Gibson in his criticism. Proves how relative things are...............

    mundi  i am not a good listener  of religious/social/political video debates I only listen to lectures that details basic science subjects ., but I do read the publications on those subjects that are peer reviewed  ..   The problem with Gibson's work is his own words... his own faith/religion on faiths which includes Christianity and Islam ..   

    for e,g Altara post
    Gibson:
    Quote
    ]“The Nabataeans and Edomites were both descendants of Abraham, and so they had a monotheistic background and were reluctant to put human characteristics onto gods”


    It is with things like that that Gibson discredits himself (yawn...) he is an amateur.

    statements like  The Nabataeans and Edomites were both  descendants of Abraham ,  are problematic for a investigators of religious history..    i  would consider that is nonsense...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7249 - August 01, 2019, 10:11 AM

    Yeez,

    Sure, I agree completely with the criticism of the pseudo history based on Quran and Bible.

    But we have King put on a pedestal by the scholars. And I do think Gibson in his respons points to valid weaknesses  in King's discourse.  The scholars line up to beatify King and line up to ridiculise Gibson.

    The story telling of Gibson shouldn't be countered by the story telling of King.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7250 - August 01, 2019, 11:08 AM


    It is with things like that that Gibson discredits himself (yawn...) he is an amateur.
    statements like  The Nabataeans and Edomites were both  descendants of Abraham ,  are problematic for a investigators of religious history..    i  would consider that is nonsense...


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7251 - August 01, 2019, 12:04 PM

    Yeez,

    Sure, I agree completely with the criticism of the pseudo history based on Quran and Bible.

    Quote
    But we have King put on a pedestal by the scholars. And I do think Gibson in his respons points to valid weaknesses  in King's discourse.  The scholars line up to beatify King and line up to ridiculise Gibson.

    The story telling of Gibson shouldn't be countered by the story telling of King.


    mundi .,  there are two points i would like you to note.

    1).  I am NOT even going in to what David king.. said/wrote on Gibson's Books and work... I am only using Gibson's words to counter him.,

    2).  As a response to you in this post., I gave  David A. King's QUALIFICATIONS  along with publication critic pdf files of Gibson's work
    I would NOT call them as Mosques., They are just prayer houses of migrated folks., if they were really built  around the years 620 to 680... they can not called as Mosques..   

    Dan Gibson, Early Islamic Qiblas: A Survey of mosques built . pdf  by DA King - ‎2018

    The Petra fallacy   by  David A. King.,  Professor of the History of Science.,  Johann Wolfgang Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main., www.davidaking.academia.edu
    ........................

    David King was/is Professor.,  And  I don't think he wrote historical books and publications in support of Christianity by  Criticizing Islam  to make movies and to  make money by aligning himself to a particular faith ., Please realize I AM NOT SAYING WHAT GIBSON  DOING IS WRONG.,   .. He must have full freedom to say and write what he thinks is true history of Islam..,

    and please read  David King's CV  ...  http://davidaking.academia.edu/  ..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7252 - August 01, 2019, 05:35 PM

      mundi  ........................

    So an unrelated question to you .. I am interested in reading this book''

     

    Amazon jungle says  ...........1 Used from $106.87 .,    4 New from $53.44 ......  that is too expensive for me.. I wonder any of you guys read that book

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    that is what i said to mundi about that book., ............  but mundi doesn't care about that ..  So let me watch the Author speaking... I really did not know about him until couple of days back..  so let me watch the author..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95oflv7wVSU


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7253 - August 01, 2019, 06:56 PM

    Yeez,

    You know what I think of Gibson's reliance on the tradition (Biblical or Quranic): not reliable

    But I did read King's criticism on Gibson's qibla directions. While I think there is plenty to criticise (with what I've seen, I dont think Petra is the focus of early Islam, but I doubt it is Mecca), the way King does it is not at all objective. I don't doubt King's resumé is fantastic, doesnt change that his Gibson rebuttal is substandard (imo).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7254 - August 02, 2019, 08:09 AM

    Jacqueline Chabbi (retired now) is half waking up. Just half. Subs can be displayed and translated.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2usxelJ0U
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7255 - August 02, 2019, 08:53 AM

    Altara

    on Chabbi:

    1/ Great she starts with reproaching scholars of using the islamic mythology as historic facts! So not only Gibson is guilty of this  Cheesy

    2/ She is probably wrong about the date of the written Quran, she thinks it is late...

    3/ She talks of the impossibility fro a Meccan to get to Ethiopia, bc too far and too expensive. Does she consider that Arabs seem to have colonies as far away as China in 6th C?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7256 - August 02, 2019, 09:13 AM

    Quote
    Altara


    Yes.
    Quote
    1/ Great she starts with reproaching scholars of using the islamic mythology as historic facts! So not only Gibson is guilty of this


    Sure Wink
    Quote
    2/ She is probably wrong about the date of the written Quran, she thinks it is late...

    Half waking up.

    Quote
    3/ She talks of the impossibility fro a Meccan to get to Ethiopia, bc too far and too expensive. Does she consider that Arabs seem to have colonies as far away as China in 6th C?


    She says that there is no Ethiopia in the Quran. She's right.
    But she does not see the Big Picture.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7257 - August 02, 2019, 10:23 AM

    .....................
    But she does not see the Big Picture.

    Big Picture.... Cheesy      Picture on a big screen....lol., I must agree here., French explorers of Islam are more objective than English explorers.,   so what she didn't see big picture?    So what is big picture dear Altara ??  Not only she  but NO ONE HAS SEEN BIG PICTURE ON ISLAM...,  in fact  that goes to "Muhammad" .. The founder and Prophet of Islam itself /himself ...

    ......So no one has seen big picture of Islam and No one has seen big picture of Muhammad ....     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7258 - August 02, 2019, 12:36 PM

    Quote
    So what is big picture dear Altara ??


    Hahaha! you will see Wink In this video, there are many things that she does not see.She does not know history 300 BC/600 AD.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7259 - August 02, 2019, 01:48 PM

    Yeez,

    You know what I think of Gibson's reliance on the tradition (Biblical or Quranic): not reliable

    But I did read King's criticism on Gibson's qibla directions. While I think there is plenty to criticise (with what I've seen, I dont think Petra is the focus of early Islam, but I doubt it is Mecca), the way King does it is not at all objective. I don't doubt King's resumé is fantastic, doesnt change that his Gibson rebuttal is substandard (imo).

    That i absolutely agree with you dear mundi.,   Irrespective of his resume... as I operate on a basic rule  "NO ONE IS UNQUESTIONABLE"....   dr. King's rebuttal in those pdf files is appalling and he is irresponsible to use such words as these in a publication.. it is indeed substandard because of silly  few words in his long publication.,  As you mentioned he   does have a point w.r.t  early Mosques and that  Qibla .. the Islam prayer direction.....

    but he  should have not  uttered such words as these..
    Quote
    ................Gibson appears on the scene at the same time as the English historian Tom Holland, the self-styled “leading writer of the Ancient World”, who has had the audacity to claim on the basis of one very dubious late medieval non-Arabic text, that Muslims have been praying at the wrong times for over a millennium. Both Gibson and Holland write in total ignorance of orientalist research on the institutions of the qibla and prayer times over the past century. The Christian lunatic fringe has already adopted this very useful arsenal of ‘weaponry’ from Gibson and Holland in its fight against Islam................

    .....Gibson is not to blame for his basic premise that Islam did not begin in Mecca. It goes back over 40 years ago essentially to three Arabists (Wansbrough and his students Crone & Cook) at the University of London (SOAS), who expressed the daft ..“revisionist” idea —though they were serious— that the origins of Islam were not in Mecca, but somewhere else in N.W. Arabia. The latter two of these, in their unfortunate 1977 book Hagarism, “written by infidels for infidels”......

    without such words his publication on Dan Gibson, Early Islamic Qiblas: A Survey of mosques built . pdf by DA King - ‎2018  would have been much better., in fact they are unnecessary..

    But even Gibson and HIS ARDENT SUPPORTERS  like you  Cheesy    must agree  with what dr. king said here
    Quote
    ..........I counter Gibson’s agnotological tour de force with the simple argument that the earliest Muslims could never have aligned mosques accurately toward the modern direction of Petra, or, for that matter, toward the modern direction of Mecca either. It is even easier to demolish Gibson’s necessary back-up thesis, which is that the first generations of Muslims had all of the necessary technical equipment —trigonometry, geometry, geographical coordinates, astronomical instrumentation— to derive the direction of Petra accurately for any locality from al-Andalus4 to China. Since this equipment in fact became available to the Muslims in al-ʿIrāq only in the late 8th and early 9th century, Gibson’s attempt to fabricate the evidence for an earlier epoch falls flat...

        that is a fact..

     I must also add that dr. King himself is NOT an historian of Islam but his contribution on Scientific achievements in Mathematics.. Astronomy of so called Islamic world of that time  is worth reading and worth mentioning .. I wonder whether he realized these contribution of so-called Arabs to Science is NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM    but it is all to do  with human curiosity to know the unknowns ..  and i like dr. king's word .....Gibson’s agnotological tour de force ...  ...agnotological tour de force......lol..

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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