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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7200 - July 26, 2019, 04:05 PM

     BnF Arabe 329d does not follow any one traditional reading, and it is not thereby alone among Q manuscripts says Reynolds.

    MVP : yes many readings because the rasm was in MANY different GROUPS. It corresponds perfectly to what I propose : no Zem zem/ Muhammad, "oral" tradition, etc. (Haha, hahaha, etc.) Miss the (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7201 - July 27, 2019, 06:29 AM

    Altara,

    Those readings all stem from 2 nd C AH and later. So I doubt they have something to do with your theory. Or how do you see it
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7202 - July 27, 2019, 08:11 AM

    MVP (following the statements of Déroche- Quran of the Umayyad- ) just wrote a paper : no "oral" transmission of the rasm giving (strong) indications that all the ancient ms one have have been copied from exemplar that  stem from an (unique) archetype.
    This contradicts the narrative which insists on "orality" to each step of the constitution of the text. Why it says this? Simply because the text (the Word of God) says it (more or less clearly and it is easily deductible)  about itself. Muslims believed what the text say about itself, it is God who is speaking to them, in Arabic! It breaks the "orality" chain concept.
    Therefore I consider that it is a text from the beginning.
    That is why there are numerous readings : there was no "prophet" heard  by any one reciting the Quran no "Companions" therefore no Kaba/Zem zem, all they had was a a rasm. Therefore necessarily numerous readings of it as each group who own it  has tried to decipher it : result is what one see and logical.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7203 - July 27, 2019, 10:12 AM

    Sure, of course first was the text, then the oralS. Common sense is proved.

    But the readings don't differ very much from each other. How many key words are significantly different to change the meaning? Relatively few ( although, once scholars start counting, I wouldnt be surprised that there are 1000+ in that category).

    The relative unanimity of the pronunciation is surprising I think. THat means that from the beginning of the decipherment, a strong state/central authority was managing the diversity.

    12 000 of the 80 000 words of the Quran are hapaxes. 18 000 different (unique) words are in the Quran. Compared to the NT that is about x 100 more hapaxes. For a lot of these words there is no way of finding out what was really meant. I think looking in the attributed meanings of these hapaxes would uncover the real mother load of variations in the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7204 - July 27, 2019, 10:47 AM

    Quote
    But the readings don't differ very much from each other.

     

    It is logic  that the readings don't differ very much from each other, etc.
     But this is not my point. My point is that this contradicts the narrative which is not therefore "historical".
    Quote
    THat means that from the beginning of the decipherment, a strong state/central authority was managing the diversity.


    Not necessarily. Just need literati. For me it confirms that the Quranic texts are more ancients than the ancient MS one have which are in codex, which was not the case before.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7205 - July 27, 2019, 01:03 PM

    Quote
    Not necessarily. Just need literati. For me it confirms that the Quranic texts are more ancients than the ancient MS one have which are in codex, which was not the case before.


    I don't understand this confirmation. I too think the texts were older than the oldest manuscripts we have. It would be really a coincidence to have the mother copy of the text. But I dont understand why you see any proof of anything about age in the diversity of readings (which are only recorded 8-9 C.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7206 - July 27, 2019, 02:35 PM

    Because time is needed to decipher the texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7207 - July 27, 2019, 03:45 PM

    Quote
    MVP (following the statements of Déroche- Quran of the Umayyad- ) just wrote a paper : no "oral" transmission of the rasm giving (strong) indications that all the ancient ms one have have been copied from exemplar that  stem from an (unique) archetype.

    ..........constitution of the   text.
    ................... because the text.
    .......... Muslims believed what the text.
    ............that it is a text.  


    ............ first was the text. , then the oralS................
     


    ...........................Quranic texts are more ancients than the ancient MS one have which are in codex, which was not the case before.................

    .............I too think the  text. , were older
    ...........r copy of the  text. ,t. .....................

      .


    well  Exemplar/s  ....Templar/s   or Exemplar Templar  .. whatever you call.... THEY CAN NOT BE ISLAMIC/Muslim  Exemplar Templar  ..

    anyways,  I am completely lost on that word "TEXT/s" .. just curious  what text are you guys talking about??
     


    Well  ...the word is "Quran"...... Means "Recitation"  ...  means  .."ORAL" ...  means  ... it all from mouth ..  not from brain...     and do not use brain .. simple logic...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7208 - July 27, 2019, 05:56 PM

    Yeez,

    A song is written down, a play is written down, a recitation is written down. Simple logic, no? If you want something recited accurately, you write it down, also in 7th C.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7209 - July 27, 2019, 05:57 PM

    Quote
    what text are you guys talking about??

    (I) speak of the Quranic texts in the form they had before the codex one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7210 - July 27, 2019, 06:38 PM

    Yeez,

    A song is written down, a play is written down, a recitation is written down. Simple logic, no? If you want something recited accurately, you write it down, also in 7th C.

    well that is true only to those  songs.. sonnets.. plays which are completed and playing/singing to audience or crowd...  but the Question is .. did one guy sing/write/play all those songs that we see today in those  114 chapters of present Quran..??

    And it is not necessary that only one guy sang  all those  OT/NT stories that we see in Quran.,  Many Christian preachers in Arabian peninsula must be singing and telling those bible stories to their congregation  in ARABIC before Quran became a book

    So with that simple commonsense I say Quran is a collated book of songs/sonnets and stories from different preachers  .. Off course  those  Exemplar/s  ....Templar/s   or Exemplar Templar  whatever Altara mentioned must have had a major role making it as  the book we see now..

    Same goes to those early Quranic manuscript.../Quran codex of Sana or from other places .,  they must have been compiled  from different sources by different people ..  I don't think all of them came from same author from one book..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7211 - July 27, 2019, 11:17 PM

    Quote
    Same goes to those early Quranic manuscript.../Quran codex of Sana or from other places .,  they must have been compiled  from different sources by different people ..  I don't think all of them came from same author from one book..


    MVP in his (last) article shows that the texts (i.e the rasm) of ancient ms are copied from another written text (called "exemplar") and not by someone reciting. He adds "from a unique archetype".

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7212 - July 28, 2019, 10:07 AM

    MVP in his (last) article shows that the texts (i.e the rasm) of ancient ms are copied from another written text (called "exemplar") and not by someone reciting. He adds "from a unique archetype".


    that MVP article...   is it published?  or you read pre-publication of that  manuscript?? 

    A Qur'anic Code for Representing the Holy Qur'an (Rasm Al-'Uthmani) ... 2013 Conference publication  at Taibah University International Conference on Advances in Information Technology for the Holy Quran and Its Sciences....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7213 - July 28, 2019, 10:15 AM

    Archetype:

    Collection is possible of different material with an editor going over the whole to unify the text (eg add rhyme)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7214 - July 28, 2019, 11:31 AM

    Morris on Gibson continued: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1155088639715659777
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7215 - July 28, 2019, 01:21 PM

    that MVP article...   is it published?  or you read pre-publication of that  manuscript?? 

    A Qur'anic Code for Representing the Holy Qur'an (Rasm Al-'Uthmani) ... 2013 Conference publication  at Taibah University International Conference on Advances in Information Technology for the Holy Quran and Its Sciences....


    https://www.academia.edu/39727853/Inferring_the_Phonetics_of_Quranic_Arabic_from_the_Quranic_Consonantal_Text
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7216 - July 28, 2019, 01:49 PM



    Gibson worries that the numbers of “Meccan” soldiers in our sources are too large for Mecca itself to sustain. I actually think he’s right about this, but where he takes this as evidence against Mecca as the historical location for these events, I draw very different conclusions:

    1) Such numbers are generally exaggerated.
    2) Mecca was a net importer of food.
    3) Not all soldiers with Meccan/Qurashi allegiance were necessarily resident in Mecca itself.


    1/ To wage war in Palestine and Iraq in the same time as states the narrative?
    2/ Thanks to give an example of this pattern in Antiquity.
    3/So there's no need of "Mecca" as such.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7217 - July 28, 2019, 02:10 PM

    Gibson does not accept that cult images from “multiple religions” should have been kept together at the Ka‘bah.

    The narrative has copied the Hatra place (Iraq) in this respect.

    If you read Gibson and think he sounds reasonable, you are being duped. His arguments are very, very poor. Perhaps you don’t notice how poor they are, because you don’t have the training that specialists have: so I’m telling you.

    Unfortunately for Gibson, Morris is right here. I add that Morris lacks of training in certain fields as well. Moreover, that is why I seen none Quranic text study from him.
    The only difference is that Gibson is not graduated. Morris is.

    At last (!) Shaddel the "translator" :
    Hardly surprising, he even managed to misunderstand my raqim paper, while, I think, the premises and conclusions there were quite clear.
    His book on the qibla is even worse, he doesn't know basic statistics.


    Yawn...



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7218 - July 28, 2019, 02:13 PM


    thank you...... let me scan through it....

    well Atara  casual reading of that publication of MVP didn't tell me the very strong conclusions you have drawn...

    MVP in his (last)      article shows that the texts (i.e the rasm) of ancient ms are copied from another written text (called "exemplar")   and not by someone reciting. He adds "from a unique archetype". 

    that is such an authoritative  statement  i wonder i am not reading it  properly and i am missing something..

     
    Archetype:

    Collection is possible of different material with an editor going over the whole to unify the text (eg add rhyme)

    well  there is  no doubt about that.,  but i am saying more than adding or changing a word so a verse becomes a rhyming poem/statement...

    i think folks added new stuff in to it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7219 - July 28, 2019, 07:47 PM

    Gibson:

    I'm sure a lot of Morris' criticism is correct, but he's holding Gibson to a very high standard. Everything Gibson narrates what can't be proven is ridiculised. If the same would be done with other scholars work, these page long articles would become very short!

    I think Morris applies here the same modus operandi than Gibson in his conclusion about the Mecca case:

    Quote
    1) Such numbers are generally exaggerated.
    2) Mecca was a net importer of food.
    3) Not all soldiers with Meccan/Qurashi allegiance were necessarily resident in Mecca itself.


    Except number 1 , 2 and 3 needs to be proved and is just as much speculation by Morris than Gibson's suggestions.

    True that Gibson is a complete traditionalist. That is why I always say his database is the most important part of his work.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7220 - July 28, 2019, 10:20 PM

    Quote
    Except number 1 , 2 and 3 needs to be proved and is just as much speculation by Morris than Gibson's suggestions.


    2) Mecca was a net importer of food.

    Of course it is barren and Morris knows it . He is obliged to find a solution. But not respond bullsh*. Morris need to eat; the issue is there. He knows if he commences to ask questions, it will turn bad for him. That is why I do not blame him, but it poses a real ethical issue.

    The issue is that (I did not check...) but it appears very improbable that this situation could exist in Antiquity, except maybe for very small villages.  I never read any allusion to a such situation. Mecca is a village then? It is not what recounts the narrative. How a village can wage war toward Iraq and Palestine in the same time?  When they have no food, people would leave. If he is a (real) historian, he knows that very well. That is what did the Greeks.

     
    Quote
    Gibson is a complete traditionalist. That is why I always say his database is the most important part of his work.


    Yes. However what he has observed has a simple explication : there's no Mecca before islam. End of story, Gibson's qiblas just validate the fact.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7221 - July 29, 2019, 06:40 AM

    Quote
    Yes. However what he has observed has a simple explication : there's no Mecca before islam. End of story, Gibson's qiblas just validate the fact.


    Gibson's Qibla validating the fact that there is no Mecca is not a small feat! Plenty of authors have written well researched books with zero impact on the historical narrative.

    But Altara, the qiblas are not random either. Some do seem to point to Petra, others just South, others Sinai. But indeed, none seem to point to Mecca. Probably there were multiple foci. But having the principle of a focus (like Judaism had Jerusalem) is an interesting fact which should be examined.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7222 - July 29, 2019, 09:28 AM

    Quote
    But Altara, the qiblas are not random either. Some do seem to point to Petra, others just South, others Sinai.


    They are random. But in a frame.They could not point North, (when building north from Jerusalem) nor East, nor West (building north from Jerusalem or not, but West when building to the East of Jerusalem on the same line as it) . Why? Simply because North is not biblical (when building north from Jerusalem) as Jerusalem is the key place. It is random inside this frame.
    To complicate matters even more, one knows that "Islam" ( Mecca/Zem zem, Kaba) did not exist before 700. Therefore there is a slow progression toward this place through time (after 700) it is what one sees.
    Therefore, for me, what Gibson has found, confirms what history says :   Mecca/Zem zem, Kaba did not exist before 700, thing I had already understood.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7223 - July 29, 2019, 09:45 AM

    Quote
    https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1155208886917509120

    Gibson does not accept that cult images from “multiple religions” should have been kept together at the Ka‘bah. He speculates that they were gathered after an earthquake (in Petra): dug out of the rubble and stored in a central public place.


    is that true.. that  Gibson in his book  speculates that they were gathered after an earthquake (in Petra)?? 

    ..............................Therefore, for me, what Gibson has found, confirms what history says :   Mecca/Zem zem,Kaba did not exist before 700, thing I had already understood.

    I agree  that there was no Muhammad  Mecca and Muhammad Medina   that is described in Islamic narratives but tthere may have been     Zem zem  well  and a little town   for travelers to take rest   on the way    say..  from Yemen to Syria.... 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7224 - July 29, 2019, 01:10 PM

    Not even. This place has no practical reason to exist. It is not the way of travellers, caravans, whatever.
    All of this Morris knows it very well (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7225 - July 29, 2019, 03:35 PM

    Not even. This place has no practical reason to exist. It is not the way of travellers, caravans, whatever.

    All of this Morris knows it very well (yawn...)

    Morris  tweets as well as  what he thinks on Mecca is irrelevant  but   zeesus  .. there  you are brutal not even giving an inch ... .,,     Altara why in ancient time That place has no practical reason to exist??   .. .....  water is a very  good reason to stop by for desert  travelers ....

    suppose  some one  drops this map for you as route for   North Yemen Kingdoms of that time  to travel to  say Jerusalem.,,  or Petra.. or Syria



    So.,  as a business route for travelers  from Yemen to Syria  ....   why would you  oppose    that? .. I  fully agree   with you all that what i say is nothing to do with Islam or origins of Islam ..  but..  but existence  of a rout  to travel?....  you have to come up with lot more to convince fellows like me on saying.,     "This place has no practical reason to exist."

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7226 - July 29, 2019, 04:49 PM

     Zem zem  well  is not  a permanent well.
    Your map is a fake map : nobody knows Mecca before 700.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7227 - July 29, 2019, 06:42 PM

    Qiblas:

    Maybe the direction started off South which pointed to the South as alternative for Christians and Jews, picked up steam and started pointing to different holy places that were connected to Moses (mount haroun, Mount Sinai...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7228 - July 29, 2019, 07:48 PM

    Possible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7229 - July 30, 2019, 08:50 AM

    Zem zem  well  is not  a permanent well.

    i don;t get that.,  what is a  permanent well?  well  there water is coming from a hole.,  and it is well known since the time of that  Abbasid Caliphate  714 AD...  And it is serving visitors since that time at least...  that is ~1300  years......   i would consider that as permanent.,  I  do not see any reason not to extend that time down to say  100 AD., 

    Quote
    Your map is a fake map : nobody knows Mecca before 700.

    I  agree  that Mecca....  Islamic Mecca,,,,, Muhammad's Town Mecca is fictional story.,...but that is nothing to do with a water hole serving travelers, nomads  and animals and what ever  since ancient times.,  OR DO YOU DISPUTE THE EXISTENCE OF THAT WATER HOLE SINCE THE TIME OF ABBASID CALIPHATE?

    As far as that map is concerned it is possible it is fake.    but we must realize there were kingdoms in Yemen /southern Arabia since ages ., Architectural structures are still there  as proof of these kingdoms ;;  So  there is no reason for people not to travel from Yemen   to  Israel  or Damascus   through a coastal route of red sea say  from this picture



    So  just using common sense., i am saying that a possibility exists that   zam zam water well  is serving  travelers since ages  .... much before Islam...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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