Qur'anic studies today

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- Altara
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Reply #7110 - July 15, 2019, 02:59 PM

Quote
If i understand that word "Quranic rasm" correctly .. is it not just an Arabic text without those those dots and dashes ?

"Quranic rasm" is an Arabic text without those dots and dashes .

Quote
unless you remove all bible rasam verses...that you see in Quran...

There's no Bible verses in the "Quranic rasm" There is a rewriting of Biblical themes (AT and NT); sometimes genuine (as a rewriting) sometimes not, meaning recounts a same episode but without the same words; it is not (therefore) a textual borrowing.
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Reply #7111 - July 15, 2019, 03:09 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 15, 2019, 02:59 PM
"Quranic rasm" is an Arabic text without those dots and dashes .

There's no Bible verses in the "Quranic rasm" There is a rewriting of Biblical themes (AT and NT); sometimes genuine (as a rewriting) sometimes not, meaning recounts a same episode but without the same words; it is not (therefore) a textual borrowing.

let me ask this Q...

Were there any bible stories floating in & around ... northern Arabia .. all the way to Syria ....in written Arabic language(in the form of some Arabic script) before or during those sana manuscripts were written??

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Reply #7112 - July 15, 2019, 03:17 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 15, 2019, 02:52 PM
1. The Arabic Versions of the Bible, Reflections on Their History and Significance

2. Review of the Arabic Text of MT. SINAI ARABIC CODEX 151

3. The identity and witness of Arab pre-Islamic Arab Christianity: The Arabic language and the Bible

This is not primarily as a result of the fact that the Arab Christian historical legacy has been overcome by Islam. Rather, unlike other early Christian communities, the Bible was never translated into the vernacular of the Arabs.

The identity and witness of Arab pre-Islamic Arab Christianity: The Arabic language and the Bible
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Reply #7113 - July 15, 2019, 03:19 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 15, 2019, 03:09 PM
let me ask this Q...

Were there any bible stories floating in & around ... northern Arabia .. all the way to Syria ....in written Arabic language(in the form of some Arabic script) before or during those sana manuscripts were written??

Improbable. That was the chance of the Quran.
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Reply #7114 - July 15, 2019, 03:27 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 15, 2019, 03:19 PM
Improbable. That was the chance of the Quran.

Did any one do detailed publication on that 44th Surah..."Maraym". Quran rasam with what is there in bible if both are read in Arabic for example Luke The Birth of John the Baptist....?? and see the difference between the two...

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Reply #7115 - July 15, 2019, 09:28 PM

44th Surah is "The Smoke". Maryam is 19. Dye has made some stuff about 19. In French.

Quote
Quran rasm with what is there in bible if both are read in Arabic for example Luke The Birth of John the Baptist....?? and see the difference between the two...

If both are read in Arabic or not it changes nothing to what I said previously in Reply #7110 . Especially since that the Bible is translated in Arabic after the Quran emergence.
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Reply #7116 - July 16, 2019, 06:44 AM
Reinink (1990) on Pseudo-Methodius and Edessene Apocalypse and more:

https://t.co/GpxobNNNdv

Interesting to read Reininks work in comparison with Martinez' (1985) study on these apocalypses:

http://www.arzobispodegranada.es/index.php?mod=articulos&lan=es&sec=5&cat=11&id=516

First remarks:
- Reinink sees a composition date of Edessene A. around 693 AD, Martiniez 1246 AD
- Reinink sees an "undoubtable"allusion to the muslim civil war, while Martinez overlooks it, and I don't see it when I read the translation
- Reinink sees these apocalypses written in reaction to the building of the Dome of the Rock. If that was so. why didn't these texts make an "undoubtable"allusion to this building?
Lesson of the day: Always check the sources before fully believing a scholar?
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Reply #7117 - July 16, 2019, 09:17 AM

There is not the all dissertation in one file?
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Reply #7118 - July 16, 2019, 11:07 AM

Altara,

The complete file is there and very handily organised I must say. Important to keep in mind that there is an abbreviation file...

Pseudo Metodius and Edessene A are both there and analysed. Very readable work of Martinez.
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Reply #7119 - July 16, 2019, 11:17 AM

Can you give the link ?
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Reply #7120 - July 16, 2019, 11:17 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 15, 2019, 09:28 PM
44th Surah is "The Smoke". Maryam is 19. Dye has made some stuff about 19. In French.

If both are read in Arabic or not it changes nothing to what I said previously in Reply #7110 . Especially since that the Bible is translated in Arabic after the Quran emergence.

well Altara this statement .......... "Bible is translated in Arabic after the Quran emergence" .... that is a loaded statement which deserves attention.. well Bible means TONS OF BOOKS ... not just story (surah Maryam)from Luke–Acts which were taken rewritten from that Gospel of Mark ..... a source for the narrative of Christ's earthly life, ...... well that is a lot of different problem..

So I agree with you that Bible ..whole bible books are translated in Arabic after the Quran ... but stories ..or few pages of bible ....that you see in bible which were compiled in to Quran must have been there in Arabic rasam.. literature whatever in written form before they became part of Quran..

the other possibility is .. original bible stories that we see in "Luke–Acts" or in Gospel of Mark were first written in Greek . and Greeks were all over middle east at that time., So any Arab Christian _WHICH I THINK IS THE FIRST Quran WRITER .. the so-called verses in Meccan surajhs)) writer who had access and knowledge to Bible stories put that in Quran...,

So in short I say there was either another book / or a bible story booklets in Arabic .... whether it is called Quran.. or whatever other name ., and that must have been there before this 114 chapter book became a rubber stamp of the faith Islam.. So my questions on the assumptions of Academics that Quran was the first book that was ever written in Arabic will continue ....

with best
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7121 - July 16, 2019, 11:19 AM

Altara,

I already gave the link, here it is again:

http://www.arzobispodegranada.es/index.php?mod=articulos&lan=es&sec=5&cat=11&id=516
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Reply #7122 - July 16, 2019, 11:30 AM

Muhammad. PDF file by Maxime Rodinson

That book is from Maxime Rodinson.. was a great guy every one kicked him out of the every political party he joined... Communists.. nationalists.. rightists..leftists .. everyone kicked him out ...

Quote
Maxime Rodinson (1915–2004), the great French Orientalist, Marxist sociologist, author (most famously) of Muhammad (1961) and Islam and Capitalism (1966). Born in Paris to radical Jewish working-class parents, Ashkenazi Jews, who were among the earliest members of the French Communist Party in 1920. They were both murdered in Auschwitz in 1943. Rodinson himself was a member of the party from 1937 to 1958 when he was expelled, having repudiated its evasive stance on Zionism and “exasperated by the restrictions imposed on our thought and research by the intellectual and other cadres of the party”. (In France in the fifties, he says, “it was impossible to publish an article or book, or to make a film, in which the Arabs appeared as at least having some grounds for complaint about Zionist Jews”. The Communist Party refused to rock this boat for fear of losing votes.)

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7123 - July 16, 2019, 12:11 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 16, 2019, 11:19 AM
Altara,

I already gave the link, here it is again:

http://www.arzobispodegranada.es/index.php?mod=articulos&lan=es&sec=5&cat=11&id=516

The link of the entire thesis? Surely not. I see multiple links there.
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Reply #7124 - July 16, 2019, 12:22 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 16, 2019, 11:17 AM

So I agree with you that Bible ..whole bible books are translated in Arabic after the Quran ... but stories ..or few pages of bible ....that you see in bible which were compiled in to Quran must have been there in Arabic rasam.. literature whatever in written form before they became part of Quran..

Nope there is no : "must have been there in Arabic rasam.. literature whatever in written form before they became part of Quran"

Quote
the other possibility is .. original bible stories that we see in "Luke–Acts" or in Gospel of Mark were first written in Greek. and Greeks were all over middle east at that time., So any Arab Christian _WHICH I THINK IS THE FIRST Quran WRITER .. the so-called verses in Meccan surajhs)) writer who had access and knowledge to Bible stories put that in Quran...,

Possible, but not necessarily.
Quote
So in short I say there was either another book / or a bible story booklets in Arabic ....

Nope I do not think so.
Quote
whether it is called Quran.. or whatever other name ., and that must have been there before this 114 chapter book became a rubber stamp of the faith Islam..

Idem.

Quote
So my questions on the assumptions of Academics that Quran was the first book that was ever written in Arabic will continue ....

with best
yeezevee

It should not. You have the responses.
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Reply #7125 - July 16, 2019, 01:53 PM

Altara,

Yes, the entire thesis is there. Split up in different links for easy readability. Martinez discussing 3 manuscripts, you have the subtitles with the consequent chapters beneath. Have a look, it is worth it.
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Reply #7126 - July 16, 2019, 03:27 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 16, 2019, 12:22 PM

It should not. You have the responses.

Altara says that as a response to..
Quote from: yeezevee on July 16, 2019, 11:17 AM
................ So my questions on the assumptions of Academics that Quran was the first book that was ever written in Arabic will continue .... ........

well Altara, I will take your response on its face value but search and questions will continue..

So in essence what Altara saying is "There was no written page in Arabic language or in any one of those Pre-Islamic Arabic scripts that were close to Arabic language which were present in Pre-Islamic Arabian peninsula (( that is before say April 22, 571 AD .. The birth day of Prophet of Islam )) ON THE STORIES OF BIBLE (OT & NT)"

well that is what he says .. dear Altara ..... did I understand your words "It should not" accurately ...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7127 - July 16, 2019, 03:36 PM

well anyway., hmseektruth says at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=31631.msg883836#msg883836
Quote
Watch 'The Koran: Journey to the Book's Origin' on Amazon Prime and do an Umrah package trip, you can get deals for less than £1k. It'll broaden your horizon!

let me try to watch it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I68rpJe2zws

Oops it needs russian language??

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCARN6VkE0kH71lUSNwUcWKw

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7128 - July 17, 2019, 07:19 AM
Quote from: mundi on July 16, 2019, 06:44 AM
Reinink (1990) on Pseudo-Methodius and Edessene Apocalypse and more:

https://t.co/GpxobNNNdv

Interesting to read Reininks work in comparison with Martinez' (1985) study on these apocalypses:

http://www.arzobispodegranada.es/index.php?mod=articulos&lan=es&sec=5&cat=11&id=516

First remarks:
- Reinink sees a composition date of Edessene A. around 693 AD, Martiniez 1246 AD
- Reinink sees an "undoubtable"allusion to the muslim civil war, while Martinez overlooks it, and I don't see it when I read the translation
- Reinink sees these apocalypses written in reaction to the building of the Dome of the Rock. If that was so. why didn't these texts make an "undoubtable"allusion to this building?
Lesson of the day: Always check the sources before fully believing a scholar?
Waiting for responses here...
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Reply #7129 - July 17, 2019, 11:41 AM

Quote
Quote from: mundi on July 17, 2019, 07:19 AM

Waiting for responses here...

First remarks:
Reinink sees a composition date of Edessene A. around 693 AD, Martiniez 1246 AD
Reinink sees an "undoubtable"allusion to the muslim civil war, while Martinez overlooks it, and I don't see it when I read the translation
Reinink sees these apocalypses written in reaction to the building of the Dome of the Rock..........

Lesson of the day: Always check the sources before fully believing a scholar?

That is very important lesson every one must keep in mind in every field of investigation more so on the origins and history of faiths/religions.. but i did not get this point
Quote
If that was so. why didn't these texts make an "undoubtable"allusion to this building?

question is what texts are you talking about? that is not clear to me., incidentally that is a very good question..

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7130 - July 17, 2019, 11:52 AM

hahaha, Thanks Yeez,

I guess I can't expect people just to dig into these texts and start reading the lot. Thanks for the effort.
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Reply #7131 - July 17, 2019, 12:08 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 17, 2019, 11:52 AM
hahaha, Thanks Yeez,

I guess I can't expect people just to dig into these texts and start reading the lot. Thanks for the effort.

well your "thanks" is of no use dear mundi., because you didn't answer my question... What texts ??lol..

how about 17.1 ... ? lol..

well let me scan through another book of that terrific guy ....Maxime Rodinson....

Islam And Capitalism

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7132 - July 17, 2019, 09:59 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 17, 2019, 07:19 AM

Waiting for responses here...

Dear Mundi,

My issue here is that those (interesting) texts do not bring any hints of the Quranic authors, but Christian reactions to the conquest.
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Reply #7133 - July 18, 2019, 06:42 AM

Altara,

The Edessene Apocalypse (EA) mentions Mecca, the pseudo Methodius (PM) mentions Yatrib. If dating indeed 694, that would be first mention of Mecca, half a century before the next one , the Spanish Chronicle, 740.
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Reply #7134 - July 18, 2019, 08:44 AM

End of 7th c. "Mecca" "exists", (but not before). Yatrib is in the Quranic texts and soon will be called "Medina" due to the elaboration (from those texts) of the califal entourage who try to understand the story around the figure to whom God is speaking in the text.
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Reply #7135 - July 18, 2019, 09:16 AM

Entre mémoire et pouvoir: L'espace syrien sous les derniers ..., Volumes 72-809 By Antoine Borrut

I wonder any of you guys have read that work of Antoine Borrut ?

https://history.umd.edu/users/aborrut

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7136 - July 18, 2019, 09:39 AM

Altara,

Quote
End of 7th c. "Mecca" "exists"

How do you know? EA would give a clue here. But if Martinez is right (and I lean towards his dating for what it's worth), the text dates from 13th C, so we are stuck with the Mecca vacuum until 740...
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Reply #7137 - July 18, 2019, 11:02 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 18, 2019, 09:16 AM
Entre mémoire et pouvoir: L'espace syrien sous les derniers ..., Volumes 72-809 By Antoine Borrut

I wonder any of you guys have read that work of Antoine Borrut ?

https://history.umd.edu/users/aborrut

I read it.
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Reply #7138 - July 18, 2019, 11:14 AM

Quote from: mundi on July 18, 2019, 09:39 AM
Altara,

Yes.
Quote
How do you know?

Read (carefully) what Tabari recounts about Zubayr in his Tarikh during the war between Zubayr and Abd al Malik.
What exactly is Zubayr doing?

Quote
EA would give a clue here. But if Martinez is right (and I lean towards his dating for what it's worth), the text dates from 13th C, so we are stuck with the Mecca vacuum until 740...

Why not. It shows only that the "Mecca" depicted by later Muslim tradition (Ibn Ishaq, etc) never existed before Islam... That this story is a fake (but not a plot...) Therefore that it is a later construction.
That what I always thought. And it is what allows to put aside this story to search the history of the origin of the Quranic texts.
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Reply #7139 - July 18, 2019, 11:31 AM

Altara,

Quote
Read (carefully) what Tabari recounts about Zubayr in his Tarikh during the war between Zubayr and Abd al Malik.

Why dont you summarize this.
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

Altara

Reply #7110 - July 15, 2019, 02:59 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7111 - July 15, 2019, 03:09 PM

Altara

Reply #7112 - July 15, 2019, 03:17 PM

Altara

Reply #7113 - July 15, 2019, 03:19 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7114 - July 15, 2019, 03:27 PM

Altara

Reply #7115 - July 15, 2019, 09:28 PM

mundi

Reply #7116 - July 16, 2019, 06:44 AM

Altara

Reply #7117 - July 16, 2019, 09:17 AM

mundi

Reply #7118 - July 16, 2019, 11:07 AM

Altara

Reply #7119 - July 16, 2019, 11:17 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7120 - July 16, 2019, 11:17 AM

mundi

Reply #7121 - July 16, 2019, 11:19 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7122 - July 16, 2019, 11:30 AM

Altara

Reply #7123 - July 16, 2019, 12:11 PM

Altara

Reply #7124 - July 16, 2019, 12:22 PM

mundi

Reply #7125 - July 16, 2019, 01:53 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7126 - July 16, 2019, 03:27 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7127 - July 16, 2019, 03:36 PM

mundi

Reply #7128 - July 17, 2019, 07:19 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7129 - July 17, 2019, 11:41 AM

mundi

Reply #7130 - July 17, 2019, 11:52 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7131 - July 17, 2019, 12:08 PM

Altara

Reply #7132 - July 17, 2019, 09:59 PM

mundi

Reply #7133 - July 18, 2019, 06:42 AM

Altara

Reply #7134 - July 18, 2019, 08:44 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7135 - July 18, 2019, 09:16 AM

mundi

Reply #7136 - July 18, 2019, 09:39 AM

Altara

Reply #7137 - July 18, 2019, 11:02 AM

Altara

Reply #7138 - July 18, 2019, 11:14 AM

mundi

Reply #7139 - July 18, 2019, 11:31 AM

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