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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7050 - June 23, 2019, 07:26 AM

    Do you agree with Gabriel S. Reynolds here:

    "Fascinating article showing how Q manuscripts render a specific phrase, "Grace of God/your Lord" Ar. niʿmat allāh/rabbi-ka, (writing the "t" in 1 of 2 ways). It illustrates that the Qur'an was standardized early & passed on through written, not oral, transmission. Great insights!"
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1142407887651819521

    In the same thread, Juan Cole challenges the views of Guillaume Dye and Tomaso Tesei:

    "so much for the Qur'an being from time of Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan or later".

    Tesei responds in this way:

    "Basically it has the same substantial value if the sentence “bla bla bla” "

    What is your response to this thread? Does MVP`s research change your views in any way?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7051 - June 23, 2019, 09:28 AM

    Do you agree with Gabriel S. Reynolds here: ...https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR

    Quote
    Gabriel S Reynolds @GabrielSaidR
     
    Fascinating article showing how Q manuscripts render a specific phrase, "Grace of God/your Lord" Ar. niʿmat allāh/rabbi-ka, (writing the "t" in 1 of 2 ways). It illustrates that the Qur'an was standardized early & passed on through written, not oral, transmission. Great insights!

    ...............................


    It is indeed Fascinating  & strange to assume writing a letter in this case "t" ......... (( "writing the "t" in 1 of 2 ways")).....    in a some passage   ..........(( "Grace of God/your Lord" Ar. niʿmat allāh/rabbi-ka", )).......of a book of The Umayyad Dynasty times could prove that whole book was passed on by written technology  or by Oral technology  or computer technology or programmed brain washed   twitter  technology ...   lol..

    Anyways .. it is important to many of these Academics to look  in to the  over all picture on the origins of Quran ........ the present book (WHOLE BOOK not just a verse or a word  in it).....through   the times of "The Umayyad Dynasty"...

    And as we know Umayyad Caliphate ruled between 661–750 with Damascus  being their Capital.. . First of all .. who were these  three guys ..661–680.........Muawiya I  • 680–683...........Yazid I .....• 683-684.........Muawiya II.. where did they come from?? and they ruled large chunk of land



    one of the biggest assumption in Islam from  scholar of Islam from Muslim backgrounds  and as well as  from academic circles was and is  this 
    Quote
    "That  Umayyads were Muslims to begin with  and they  were related to Pagan remnants of present  Mecca..Madina .. Saudi desert..".

    That assumption itself is questionable.... 

    These guys who are researching Quran origins completely neglect ....Cultures/religions/religious sects ....languages  and the literature religious or otherwise  ...that were present during that time in that green colored land of that picture   .And...and now they are running in circles with few Arabic words of Quran or those  ancient  inscriptions/ artifacts on stones... that too on TWITTER OR FACE BOOK   .....  that indeed is funny .......  it  is strange and funny specially from folks  who are  having doctorate degrees and working in Academic institutions  ........................

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7052 - June 23, 2019, 09:33 AM

    Quote
    Agree that transmission was primarily written, but @therealsidky showed in his brilliant talk that there does seem to be some contamination in the copying of Qur’ans resulting from interaction with oral tradition. These oral traditions may derive from the rasm, or could be older.


    Why not, but later Qurans. It is easily understandable why, as learning by heart has developed through time to mimic the "Prophet" and to obey what the Quran says of itself (easily deducted in the text), namely that it is an oral proclamation.

    It does not concern the earliest ones which, as MVP has demonstrated it, spread like all texts: by copying them. They are those which are important in his demonstration.
    All the construction of the Muslim faith and his narrative is commencing to collapse. I remind here what one knows today:
    -There's no Mecca before Islam
    -The story of a man speaking to God, further north would have spread between 610/632 : there is nothing.
    -This story is late, contemporary sources never attest it.
    -The reason of the Arab taking over of Palestine/Syria/Persia have nothing to see with what recounts the narrative which ties it with a "Prophet"  who would commissioned it from a " big place of commerce" in the Western Peninsula.
    -The assertion of the narrative that the Quranic text was spread orally, because the Quran says that it is an oral text, is a faith one, as Muslims were/are circumvented by this text, they believe in what it says about itself. Science proves the contrary.
    I'm rather dubious when one tells me what to think about what it says...




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7053 - June 23, 2019, 10:25 AM

    ........................-The reason of the Arab taking over of Palestine/Syria/Persia have nothing to see with what recounts the narrative which ties it with a "Prophet"  who would commissioned it from a " big place of commerce" in the Western Peninsula. .......................

    Hello  Altara   on that .... Question is Were they really Arabs?   and how do we define a person is Arab or not during those time in that green land of the picture  i posted??


    and  another question



    http://www.gbv.de/dms/hebis-mainz/toc/046928960.pdf

    did  you come across or read something from that book  ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7054 - June 23, 2019, 02:10 PM

    Yes they were (I really think that one have discuss of this many times here... )
    I read more articles on the same themes and maybe some of those ones. Beeston /Jones/Jomier are interesting. Most of them accept the traditional account as historical.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7055 - June 24, 2019, 04:20 PM

    Yes they were (I really think that one have discuss of this many times here... )

    well we may have discussed and you may have written/answered  some questions  here and there but i never read anything to my satisfaction and i have plenty of questions on the origins of Umayyad Caliphate .. who they were and where they come from,.....

    Quote
    I read more articles on the same themes and maybe some of those ones. Beeston /Jones/Jomier are interesting.     Most of them accept the traditional account as historical.  


    So by saying that.,   are you saying On that  Umayyad Caliphate   .. most of Academics accept Islamic traditional historical account as facts of True early Islamic history??

    for e.g. the stories goes  like this ...

    Quote
    Story-1

    .............Muawiyah I ( معاوية ابن أبي سفيان‎ Muʿāwiyah ibn ʾAbī Sufyān; 602–680) was the first Caliph of the Umayyad Dynasty. After the conquest of Mecca by the Muslims, Muawiyah's family converted to Islam. Muawiyah became a scribe for Muhammad, and during the first and second caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar, fought with the Muslims against the Byzantines in Syria.

    Quote
    Story-2

    ......................When Uthman ibn Affan, a cousin of Muawiyah, became the third caliph, he appointed Muawiyah Governor of Syria. However when Ali was appointed the fourth and final Rashidun Caliph, he expelled Muawiyah from the Governorship. Muawiyah refused to obey Ali, and had some level of support from the Syrians in his rebelliousness, amongst whom he was a popular leader. Ali called for military action against Muawiyah, but the reaction of the political classes in Medina was not encouraged, and thus Ali deferred. Eventually Ali marched on Damascus and fought Muawiyah's supporters at the inconclusive Battle of Siffin (657 CE). Ali's son Hasan ibn Ali signed a truce and retired to private life in Medina. Muawiyah thus established the Umayyad Caliphate, which was to be a hereditary dynasty, and governed from Damascus in Syria instead of Medina in Arabia.


    Quote
    Storuy_3

      Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan (died 680) son of Abu Sufyan.,  who was one of the leaders of the Meccan opposition to Mohammed.    Muawiya did not adopt Islam until the conquest of Mecca in 630. Muawiya at this time was made secretary to the Prophet, but it was as a warrior in the army sent by the caliph Abu Bakr to conquer Syria that Muawiya first distinguished himself in the Moslem community.           

    As a result of his military exploits, Muawiya was awarded the governorship of Damascus and, under the caliph Omar, became governor over all Syria, in which capacity he served for 20 years. He built the province into a base of support on which he was able to draw during his contest with Ali for the caliphate.   Muawiya's career began in 655 with the murder of the caliph Othman by rebels from Egypt and Iraq who resented the favoritism shown by Othman toward his Umayyad kinsmen. When Othman was assassinated, the duty of avenging his death devolved upon Muawiya as the strongest member of the clan. The issue which pitted Muawiya against Ali ibn Abu Talib, the new caliph, was the punishment of the regicides


    Quote
    Story-4

    .........Although Ali had not himself participated in the murder, he neglected to take any action against the assassins and, in fact, adopted certain anti-Umayyad measures that the rebels had advocated, such as removing Othman's governmental appointees. This Muawiya regarded as proof of Ali's complicity in the murder; accordingly, he refused to pay homage to Ali as caliph.

    Ali marched against Syria and was met by Muawiya at the famous battle of Siffin. Muawiya was able to avoid defeat by adopting the clever ruse of placing pages of the Koran on his soldiers' lances, which signified that his quarrel with Ali should be settled not through fighting but by consulting the book of God. Both sides subsequently chose arbitrators who agreed that since Othman had committed no crime his murder was not justified. Muawiya's stand being thereby vindicated, his Syrian supporters declared him the rightful caliph (658)............



     Story-5........Muawiyah I is a reviled figure in Shia Islam for several reasons.   

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E744LRu_ZOk

    So.. Altara... To jump start Islam and Islamic empire.,   would you & OTHER ACADEMICS WHO ARE EXPLORING ISLAMIC HISTORY  accept those 5 stories as Real history of early Islam starting from the day   Muʿāwiyah ibn ʾAbī Sufyān  became Muslim?


    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7056 - June 24, 2019, 11:23 PM

    Quote
    So by saying that.,   are you saying On that  Umayyad Caliphate   .. most of Academics accept Islamic traditional historical account as facts of True early Islamic history??


    Yes, they take them as granted. This precise topic is so sure in their mind that it is never discussed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7057 - June 24, 2019, 11:51 PM

    Quote
    well we may have discussed and you may have written/answered  some questions  here and there but i never read anything to my satisfaction and i have plenty of questions on the origins of Umayyad Caliphate .. who they were and where they come from,.....

    1/Arabs
    2/ where there were Arabs people. Now it suffices to reflect. One have several time said here where they were (yawn...) West :Palestine-Syria ; East: From Beth Arabayé to the Gulf.
    Western Peninsula is void of large concentration of people corresponding to what describe the narratives (armies capable to do what the narrative says they do) until Najran where people are ... Christians and they surely would not  have built a house of prayer in 637 on the Temple Mount... Idem with Palestine-Syria Arabs; as they where Christians. Further south the Yemeni speak and write differently of what one can see in the earliest Quran manuscripts; therefore it is not them.
    I have an explication; clear, logical, taking into account the (sourced) historical context that I won't uncover here.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7058 - June 25, 2019, 05:01 AM

    1/Arabs
    2/ where there were Arabs people. Now it suffices to reflect. One have several time said here where they were (yawn...) West :Palestine-Syria ; East: From Beth Arabayé to the Gulf.

     Cheesy  .... yawning is ok.,  as long as you don't go in to that permanent sleep   along with your ideas on origins of Quran before you publish.......      Cheesy  .,     

    well actually what you say makes   sense   .  so on the way on that Arabs  or folks living  in an around  "Palestine-Syria ; East: From Beth Arabayé to the Gulf"   ...  let me add the picture of this  map


    Quote
    Western Peninsula is void of large concentration of people corresponding to what describe the narratives (armies capable to do what the narrative says they do) until Najran where people are ... Christians and they surely would not  have built a house of prayer in 637 on the Temple Mount... Idem with Palestine-Syria Arabs; as they where Christians. Further south the Yemeni speak and write differently of what one can see in the earliest Quran manuscripts; therefore it is not them.
    I have an explication; clear, logical, taking into account the (sourced) historical context that I won't uncover here.

      indeed what you write makes lot of sense to those who are rational....but NOT FOR FAITH HEADS

    Well ...  Church of the East… ......... the Nestorian Church......,   

    let me read this it has good geography maps  of that time...

    Quote


    And i  wish you good luck on your pub/book...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7059 - June 25, 2019, 02:54 PM

    The original title, assuming there was one, is lost.
    Conventional titles: Chronicle of 741, Chronica Byzantia-Arabica (‘Byzantine-Arabic Chronicle’), Continuatio Byzantia-Arabica (being a continuation of John of Biclar’s Chronicle). The most accurate title is Chronica Hispana-Orientalia ad annum 724. DATE After 724, the last date referred to in the text, and possibly after the reign of al-Walīd II (r. 743-44) ORIGINAL LANGUAGE Latin (CHO), Greek or possibly Syriac (CO)

    DESCRIPTION
    The text opens with the death of the King of the Visigoths, Recared
    (601), whose reign is described in the final section of John of Biclar’s
    Chronicle. The anonymous compiler also inserts details of Iberian
    history, for which he draws exclusively on Isidore of Seville’s Historia
    Gothorum. A precise account of the battle of Tolosa in 721, taken
    from an unknown source, is also included at the end. But the ‘Spanish
    affairs’, as Hoyland calls them, only represent about a tenth of the contents
    of the work, and seem to have been interpolated rather artificially
    into the framework of another chronicle devoted to affairs of the
    east. The final combination of this Chronica Orientalia (CO) and the
    details of affairs in Iberia forms the Latin Chronica Hispana-Orientalia
    (CHO).
    No events after 724 are referred to, apart from the mention of the
    caliphate of the Umayyad al-Walīd II (r. 743-44). This could have been
    inserted later, and thus the CO must have been redacted soon after
    724, and the final CHO compiled after 743-44.
    The CO is focused on the eastern Mediterranean (Constantinople,
    Syria and Egypt) and shows great knowledge of the history of Byzantium,
    including its emperors and its relations with the Arabs. This
    is the reason for Dubler’s assertion that it was based on Byzantine
    sources, though this has not been proved, and it is surprising that the
    CO does not give evidence of a pro-Byzantine bias. The description
    of the wars between ‘Romans’ and ‘Saracens’ remains fairly neutral,
    except for its disapproval of Maslama ibn 'Abd al-Malik’s slaughter of
    the inhabitants of Pergamum during the reign of Sulaymān ibn 'Abd
    al-Malik (715-17).

    In spite of his Umayyad-centered viewpoint, the author of the CO
    is not a Muslim. Even though he shows great respect for Muhammad, he says that his status as prophet was invented by his followers. The birth of Islam is also presented as a ‘rebellion’ against the Byzantines. The CO never defends Islamic faith, and the author seems to think that Mecca is in Mesopotamia – ‘in the desert
    between Ur, the city of the Chaldeans, and Carras, the city of Mesopotamia’ (Carrhae or Harrān in the upper Jazīra).
    It can be assumed, with Collins, that the author of the CO was a Christian, and this chronicle seems to be a rather enthusiastic portrayal of the powerful Umayyad empire through the eyes of a non-Muslim subject


    https://www.academia.edu/6485616/_The_Chronicle_of_741_dans_D._Thomas_et_B._Roggema_%C3%A9d._Christian-Muslim_Relations._A_Bibliographical_History._Volume_1_600-900_E.J._Brill_The_History_of_Christian-Muslim_Relations_11_2009_pp._284-289

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7060 - June 25, 2019, 08:09 PM

    Quote
    seems to think that Mecca is in Mesopotamia – ‘in the desert
    between Ur, the city of the Chaldeans, and Carras, the city of Mesopotamia’ (Carrhae or Harrān in the upper Jazīra).


    Isn't that a biblical location in connection with Abraham?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7061 - June 25, 2019, 08:31 PM

    Mecca in Spain;


    Graves and early mosques are oriented all at around 157 degrees. That is way off from Mecca. Gibson calls this parallel with direction Petra to Mecca.

    Why did the conquerors use this Qibla? I don't think the chronicle gives any clues to solve this mystery...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7062 - June 26, 2019, 09:24 AM

    Gibson has a "king 0x"series on u tube to refute David king


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFOZgW2-2bs
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7063 - June 26, 2019, 10:52 AM

    Quote
    Why did the conquerors use this Qibla? I don't think the chronicle gives any clues to solve this mystery...


    Accessory question since the "conqueror" have no clues at all that they belong to what will describe the narrative.
    Direction of prayer is mandatory when it deals with the Biblical God : 1/Samaritans and Jews
    2/ Christians and all heterodox groups

    The Quran cannot avoid to address this issue, because the author(s) knows that it signs the affiliation of people.
    Then they alludes to it ( Q 2:142-148) with a unintelligible hodgepodge. it is then normal that those who have Quranic texts had no clues about it as attest the qiblas of these times.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7064 - June 26, 2019, 11:25 AM

    Gibson has a "king 0x"series on u tube to refute David king
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFOZgW2-2bs


    I consider that if Gibson is right one should find allusion to the narrative of a man talking to God somewhere; such a story  could not not spread, as Petra is in an heavily scribal area.
    There is nothing.
    Gibson could not respond to this argument.
    BUT, it is interesting to note that to describe Mecca, the narrative take the Petra topography. It is logic; they thought that Mecca WAS topographically a Petra-like city in a far past.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7065 - June 26, 2019, 11:55 AM

    Altara,

    I get your point on Petra. But I think we can listen to Gibson and learn without accepting Petra to be the Qibla.

    Agree that description of the holy city might match Petra since it must have been an impressive city/ ruin in late antiquity.  Plenty of good modern movies have their setting in Amsterdam or Rome for effect...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7066 - June 26, 2019, 01:59 PM

    Isn't that a biblical location in connection with Abraham?


    Then why the author did not make allusion to that?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7067 - June 26, 2019, 02:32 PM

    Quote
    Then why the author did not make allusion to that?


    At the time, the biblical locations were taken as factual geography. No need to specify further.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7068 - June 26, 2019, 02:44 PM

    Yes. However Abraham is a great figure; all his steps are well known, that is why if there was a connection, he probably would have allude to it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7069 - June 26, 2019, 02:51 PM

    no need to make an allusion, Abraham's steps were well known.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7070 - June 26, 2019, 03:08 PM

    Quote
    Yes. However Abraham is a great figure; all his steps are well known, that is why if there was a connection, he probably would have allude to it.

    no need to make an allusion, Abraham's steps were well known.



    Hu!  what is going on here? Abraham's steps were well known?   which Abraham are you talking about ?

    what steps  of Abraham are well known and to whom? So  Abraham started his first step from petra?? 

    However  i must agree here Gibson's books and stories are very good movie material...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7071 - June 26, 2019, 03:26 PM

    Jeez,

    The Spanish Chronicle Altara was discussing places Mecca in Mesopotamia. I suggest that is just the biblical understanding of where Abraham's homeland was:

    http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/ur.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7072 - June 26, 2019, 03:50 PM

    Jeez,

    .............Abraham's homeland ................

    http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/ur.html

     

    Quote
    Abraham: Abraham,[a] originally Abram, is the common patriarch of the Abrahamic religions.  In Judaism, he is the founding father of the covenant of the pieces, the special relationship between the Jewish people and God; in Christianity, he is the prototype of all believers, Jewish or Gentile; and in Islam he is seen as a link in the chain of prophets that begins with Adam and culminates in Muhammad.

    Family   Abraham's family tree
    Spouse   Sarah
    Hagar (concubine)
    Keturah
    Children   Ishmael
    Isaac
    Zimran
    Jokshan
    Medan
    Midian
    Ishbak
    Shuah
    Relatives   Terah (father)
    Sarah (half-sister and wife)
    Haran (brother)
    Nahor (brother)
    Lot (nephew)
    Lot's wife (niece)
    Birth name   Abram
    Birth place   Ur Kaśdim
    Death place   Hebron
    Resting Place   Cave of Machpelah


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5WNbtj3gZs

    Let us compare that movie with this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG-Qv3liSs4

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7073 - June 26, 2019, 08:50 PM

    Here is the amateur again. I have, as usual, difficulties with understanding all this.
    According to the tradition, the first Believers prayed towards Jerusalem. But why did they do that if Mecca already was an established place of worship and a center for their religion? When, according to the tradition, did they change the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to Mecca?
    As far as I know, Mecca is not mentioned in Muslim sources before around 740 and is hardly mentioned in the Quran. When is the first archeologic evidence for the presence of Islam in Mecca? The mint from 844?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7074 - June 26, 2019, 09:49 PM

    Quote
    According to the tradition,


    The tradition is inexact. Stop wasting your time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7075 - June 27, 2019, 05:34 AM

    Björn,

    Of course these mosques directed to Jerusalem dont make sense. And apparently these mosques never existed.

    Unclear from when on Mecca was firmly established. Gibson detects a Pakistani mosque pointing to Mecca in 727...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7076 - June 27, 2019, 06:14 AM

    The tradition is inexact. Stop wasting your time.

    Thanks a lot for your piece of advice, Altara. I will stop wasting my time. Maybe I should watch some more TV instead? After all, it is the World Championship in football for females at the moment. Tonight it is England against Norway.
     Smiley Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7077 - June 27, 2019, 06:23 AM

    Björn,

    Of course these mosques directed to Jerusalem dont make sense. And apparently these mosques never existed.

    Unclear from when on Mecca was firmly established. Gibson detects a Pakistani mosque pointing to Mecca in 727...

    In spite of what Altara says, I will continue to waste my time. Isn't your conclusion that no mosques ever pointed at Jerusalem? Isn't your or Gibson`s conclusion that in the beginning, most mosques pointed towards Petra or other directions but later all of them are directed to Mecca?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7078 - June 27, 2019, 06:27 AM

    Altara,

    Gibson's explanation for the absence of Mohammed records in Petra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jsrhJ8B2vM
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7079 - June 27, 2019, 06:31 AM

    Björn,

    I don't think the earliest mosques pointed to Mecca. From what I have measured (google earth and archeology reports), there seem to be different foci.  Some seem to point to Petra, others clearly don't. South is a very dominant direction maybe masking another intention.

    So there are all kinds of directions, but Mecca is not one of them. Neither is Jerusalem.
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