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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7020 - June 16, 2019, 12:54 AM

    Plus he uses argumentum ad hominem against Smith which evidences his weak position vis à vis the topic, hoping that his academic position will convince. If I were him, I'd be careful. It is not an academic attitude.

    Smith is right whatever MVP says. This one pretends not to have understood what Smith says. He simply says that for the same rasm, one have different readings. which are different words. Therefore, necessarily different Qurans.
    MVP seems not even realize that he is adopting the Muslim credence (God revealed each reading at the same time, etc) . That Smith be a Christian apologetic is one thing, what he says is another: is this true or not?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7021 - June 16, 2019, 12:58 AM

    What? How does he adopt the Muslim creed again? And Smith is stupid and a liar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7022 - June 16, 2019, 11:25 PM

    What? How does he adopt the Muslim creed again? And Smith is stupid and a liar.

    well Mahgraye if you use such words you must give some examples of HIS STUPIDITY & HIS LIES ., otherwise   you are just throwing words on to the board because you hate him for some personal reasons ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7023 - June 18, 2019, 03:07 AM

    so let me inquire Mahgraye post on that guy  Jay Smith
    1. What?

    2. How does he adopt the Muslim creed again?

    3.  And Smith is stupid and a liar.


    So i just typed no.3 in to goggle god..... it gives the following links

    well when i typed "jay smith   is stupid and a liar"  . the god gave me THIS PICTURE  .,  well  I have to add Islam to those words in search field to get /see what Mahgraye  says  in his post  and  here are the results

    Quote


    well there are plenty of such links So I wonder whether  Mahgraye  writes such posts because of such links in google....






    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7024 - June 19, 2019, 09:30 AM

    This is not about Jay Smith, but I hope it is OK that I write about something else. Gabriel S. Reynolds writes this on twitter:

    "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320

    Do you all agree to this claim that the Quran builds on oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity? Do most scholars agree on that?
    But the one(s) that wrote the Quran, who were they and where did they live? I have earlier in this forum shown to David Cook`s article where he points to travellers or traders living in Syria- Palestine or/and Hijaz. He writes that there are about 1000 documentable texts that could be the sources for the authors of the Quran. How could "travellers and traders" have so much knowledge about the Biblical traditions?
    As far as I know, there is only one quotation in the Quran and that is from one of David`s psalms. So those who wrote it had probably little access to written sources. So it mostly came from oral sources then??
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7025 - June 19, 2019, 02:27 PM

    This is not about Jay Smith, but I hope it is OK that I write about something else.

    Asbjoern1958 ......   Asbjoern1958 ..  it is  not only ok  but it is better....

    Quote
    Gabriel S. Reynolds writes this on twitter:

    "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320

    Do you all agree to this claim that the Quran builds on oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity? Do most scholars agree on that?

     Nope............  May be GSR never heard any thing orally or by twittery  about that    "Syriac Infancy Gospel" ... which is also known as the "Arabic Infancy Gospel"..............

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7026 - June 19, 2019, 05:33 PM

    Quote
    "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."


    Non canonical Christian parabiblical texts/New Testament apocrypha :Protoevangelium of James and Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7027 - June 19, 2019, 07:07 PM

    1. Non canonical Christian para-biblical texts/

    2. New Testament apocrypha :Protoevangelium of James and Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew.


    Hello Altara., I guess when you say  Non canonical Christian para-biblical texts  ..  does that mean that these  early Christian documents that are  NOT  found in the New Testament??

    https://listverse.com/2012/07/06/10-books-not-included-in-the-new-testament/

    Clearly they must have been written before New Testament., Question is when and where  they written and by whom?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7028 - June 19, 2019, 08:21 PM

    Fred Donner writes this about the Quran:

    "The markedly different style and content of diverse parts of the Quran may be evidence that the text as we now have it is a composite of originally separate texts hailing from different communities of Believers in Arabia."

    So he thinks the Quran is based on separate texts from different communities of Believers in Arabia and not that it is based on oral traditions.
    Robert Martin Kerr thinks the Quran is based on texts or prayer books from Christian monasteries in or close to Palestine.

    What should an amateur like me believe?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7029 - June 19, 2019, 08:44 PM

    Hello Altara., I guess when you say  Non canonical Christian para-biblical texts  ..  does that mean that these  early Christian documents that are  NOT  found in the New Testament??


    Yes.

    https://listverse.com/2012/07/06/10-books-not-included-in-the-new-testament/
    Quote
    Clearly they must have been written before New Testament.,


    Nope, later.

    Quote
    Question is when and where they written and by whom?


    Difficult to respond as there is no consensus. My opinion is: Alexandria/Palestine/Syria, heavily Hellenophone lands. 100% of these texts are written in Greek as their genuine language, 2nd -4th c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7030 - June 21, 2019, 12:26 AM

    Fred Donner writes this about the Quran:

    "The markedly different style and content of diverse parts of the Quran may be evidence that the text as we now have it is a composite of originally separate texts hailing from different communities of Believers in Arabia."

    So he thinks the Quran is based on separate texts from different communities of Believers in Arabia and not that it is based on oral traditions.


    Source?

    Quote
    Robert Martin Kerr thinks the Quran is based on texts or prayer books from Christian monasteries in or close to Palestine.


    Idem.
    Quote
    What should an amateur like me believe?


    Yourself. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7031 - June 21, 2019, 05:31 AM

    Quote
    Fred Donner writes this about the Quran:
    Quote
    ................"The markedly different style and content of diverse parts of the Quran may be evidence that the text as we now have it is a composite of originally separate texts hailing from different communities of Believers in Arabia."..................


    So he thinks the Quran is based on separate texts from different communities of Believers in Arabia and not that it is based on oral traditions.

    Robert Martin Kerr thinks the Quran is based on texts or prayer books from Christian monasteries in or close to Palestine.

    Source?



    well  source  for that Fred Donner statement is from his  book...on page 56....


    Muhammad and the Believers: At the Origins of Islam by Fred McGraw Donner 

    but that is an interesting statement in itself.,  and again question is  where do  we see that markedly different style and content and what diverse  diverse parts of the Quran  are we talking about??  which chapters??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7032 - June 21, 2019, 07:40 AM

    Oral or written sources:

    The non literal citations of the biblical material is insufficiently explained by non availability of  the written sources.

    It is clear that the biblical material in the Quran was not a copy paste exercise with use of an automatic deepl translator.  But there is so much detail in the Quran that the author(s) must have had the sources close at hand. Apparently these sources were not present in Arabic, but I think it is very unlikely that the author(s) were monolingual.

    Knowing the Syriac- Greek sources, having some of the standards in a library nearby, using this material as inspiration when writing the Quran could explain things.

    Thought exercise:
    1/read an English article, and
    2/write a summary in your own language.

    Would the distance be something like we see between Bible/NT-Talmud at one side versus the Quran? I think it is indeed comparable.  And the physical distance between the written source and the person writing it is about 1 m.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7033 - June 21, 2019, 10:18 AM

    And it's finally out:

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/grace-of-god-as-evidence-for-a-written-uthmanic-archetype-the-importance-of-shared-orthographic-idiosyncrasies/23C45AC7BC649A5228E0DA6F6BA15C06
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7034 - June 21, 2019, 10:39 AM

    Altara, the only source I have on Robert Martin Kerr is a radio interview some years ago. I would like to know more what Kerr is working on now. Does anyone know?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7035 - June 21, 2019, 01:48 PM

    So he thinks the Quran is based on separate texts from different communities of Believers in Arabia and not that it is based on oral traditions.

    Robert Martin Kerr thinks the Quran is based on texts or prayer books from Christian monasteries in or close to Palestine.
    well  source  for that Fred Donner statement is from his  book...on page 56....


    Muhammad and the Believers: At the Origins of Islam by Fred McGraw Donner 

    but that is an interesting statement in itself.,  and again question is  where do  we see that markedly different style and content and what diverse  diverse parts of the Quran  are we talking about??  which chapters??


    Thanks Yeez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7036 - June 21, 2019, 01:49 PM

    Altara, the only source I have on Robert Martin Kerr is a radio interview some years ago. I would like to know more what Kerr is working on now. Does anyone know?


    Ok thanks Asbjoern.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7037 - June 21, 2019, 01:51 PM



    The results also imply that these manuscripts, and by extension, Quran manuscripts in general, were copied from written exemplars since the earliest days.

    Of course, no oral tradition. But written text. Surely papyri.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7038 - June 21, 2019, 01:55 PM

    Kerr is very busy at the moment. He is, as many here already knows, working on his paper on the now infamous Zuhayr inscription. The paper will be published this year, I think, both in German and English. Assuming I understood correctly, he is also working on other projects related to the Arabic language and the Quran, possibly writing a rebuttal to Ahmad Al-Jallad and Marijn van Putten. Lastly, looking at his academia page, he seems to be working on other projects outside of the field of Islamic Studies. You also have the latest Inarah conference which he is responsible for (he recently uploaded on academia the abstracts of the papers being present at this year's conference).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7039 - June 21, 2019, 01:59 PM



    It is clear that the biblical material in the Quran was not a copy paste exercise with use of an automatic deepl translator.


    Of course.
     
    Quote
    But there is so much detail in the Quran that the author(s) must have had the sources close at hand.

     

    bis.

    Quote
    Apparently these sources were not present in Arabic, but I think it is very unlikely that the author(s) were monolingual.


    ter

    Quote
    Knowing the Syriac- Greek sources, having some of the standards in a library nearby, using this material as inspiration when writing the Quran could explain things.


    quater

    Quote
    Thought exercise:
    1/read an English article, and
    2/write a summary in your own language.

    Would the distance be something like we see between Bible/NT-Talmud at one side versus the Quran? I think it is indeed comparable.  And the physical distance between the written source and the person writing it is about 1 m.


    Possible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7040 - June 21, 2019, 02:59 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Of course, no oral tradition. But written text. Surely papyri.



    Why papyri?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7041 - June 21, 2019, 03:16 PM

    Kerr is very busy at the moment. He is, as many here already knows, working on his paper on the now infamous Zuhayr inscription. The paper will be published this year, I think, both in German and English. Assuming I understood correctly, he is also working on other projects related to the Arabic language and the Quran, possibly writing a rebuttal to Ahmad Al-Jallad and Marijn van Putten. Lastly, looking at his academia page, he seems to be working on other projects outside of the field of Islamic Studies. You also have the latest Inarah conference which he is responsible for (he recently uploaded on academia the abstracts of the papers being present at this year's conference).


    Thanks Mahgraye!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7042 - June 21, 2019, 04:29 PM

    Altara,

    Yes
    Quote
    Why papyri?


    Most common stuff. Cheaper than parchment.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7043 - June 21, 2019, 04:36 PM

    Magrayye,

    Quote
    Assuming I understood correctly, he is also working on other projects related to the Arabic language and the Quran, possibly writing a rebuttal to Ahmad Al-Jallad and Marijn van Putten.


    What does Kerr want to refute?

    Everybody,

    MVP confirms what most of us had already assumed to be true: all (except maybe Sanna Pal) manuscripts stem from 1 text. Open remains the question imo if the Quran was complete from the start (start= redaction of ur-rasm). Second question is what is the date of this ur-Quran. Third, what was there before the ur-Quran? (2 and 3 are linked)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7044 - June 21, 2019, 05:56 PM

    Thanks Yeez.

    well ..  i read most of his works..  and Now I consider him as   one of 1000 Magrayye's  Acedamoc Islamic scholars who think very little on Origins of Islam but publish ton of papers and books  on  Islam...

    That book  is completely useless  and outdated in front  that  song ..  your song..... "Muhammad_Mecca_Madina _zamzam" 

    anyways question to you on this...papyri publications of NT documents as well as Quran...
    Quote
    [.............no oral tradition. But written text. Surely papyri..........

    Altara,

    Why papyri?

    Most common stuff. Cheaper than parchment.


    "Cheaper than parchment"     Cheesy  that is a terrific answer with just common sense..which appears to be very uncommon with those ACADEMICS PROFESSORS who are working / exploring origins faiths in  their publications and  books..  So.. again the question to you on that papyri  publications of NT as well as Quran.. w.r.t  mundi post of

     
    Oral or written sources:

    ..................... Apparently these sources were not present in Arabic, but I think it is very unlikely that the author(s) were monolingual.

     So Those Proto-Quran writers   could be not just Arabic writers/speakers but multilingual writers who may have been writing Stories of faiths in Arabic as well as in other languages that are close by  around Arabian peninsula during that time that is some 3rd  century to 7th century....

    So what is your response on that ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7045 - June 21, 2019, 08:09 PM

    Quote
    That book  is completely useless and outdated in front  that  song ..  your song..... "Muhammad_Mecca_Madina _zamzam"  


    Well... Yet Donner has saw things, but he did not realize their importance; no alert in his brain that it was not normal considering what recounted the narratives (I wont tell here...)
    Quote
    anyway question to you on this...papyri publications of NT documents as well as Quran...


    NT papyri was the normal stuff to write NT stuff. Papyri is very fragile.
    Genuine Quranic texts, that is what I think, were written on papyri; for now, one have no trace of them. One have it only in later stuff which will become universal before paper: parchment.

    Quote
    So Those Proto-Quran writers could be not just Arabic writers/speakers but multilingual writers who may have been writing Stories of faiths in Arabic as well as in other languages that are close by  around Arabian peninsula during that time that is some 3rd  century to 7th century...
    So what is your response on that ??


    What is "Arabic" in the Quranic texts were open knowledge for all people which were interested to know this culture. Nothing was concealed. Very much different people were around the Peninsula.
    What Arabic stuff is new in  Quranic texts that what one cannot know by other non Arabic texts? Nothing. Quranic texts learn nothing new about "Arabs", it is all mainstream known stuff of Late Antiquity, stereotypes, tropes, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7046 - June 22, 2019, 01:06 PM

    Altara your response is loaded   So let me rephrase  the post  as pointers to think a bit

    1).  ..............NT papyri was the normal stuff to write NT stuff. Papyri is very fragile. ....

    2).   Genuine Quranic texts, that is what I think, were written on papyri; for now, one have no trace of them. One have it only in later stuff which will become universal before paper: parchment.

    3.) What is "Arabic" in  Quran.??  ..... the Quranic texts were open knowledge for all people which were interested to know this culture.   Nothing was concealed. Very much different people were around the Peninsula.

    4Q. What Arabic stuff is new in  Quranic texts that what one cannot know by other non Arabic texts??
    4Ans: Nothing.

    5. Quranic texts learn nothing new about "Arabs", it is all mainstream known stuff of Late Antiquity, stereotypes, tropes, etc.

     
    well let me think /read Quran a bit to understand those points.... Clearly you seem to completely neglect hadith when it comes to origins of Islam  And I fully agree with you  on that.   

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7047 - June 22, 2019, 01:20 PM

    Quote
    Clearly you seem to completely neglect hadith when it comes to origins of Islam


    Of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7048 - June 22, 2019, 01:26 PM

    Kerr with Odon Lafontaine (French) https://www.deepl.com/translator is your friend (yawn...)
    https://lincorrect.org/lislam-a-lepreuve-de-la-critique-historique/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7049 - June 22, 2019, 04:45 PM

    Kerr with Odon Lafontaine (French) https://www.deepl.com/translator is your friend (yawn...)
    https://lincorrect.org/lislam-a-lepreuve-de-la-critique-historique/

    Quote
    The historicity of Muhammad is at best debatable . The sources used for his traditional biography - in fact a hagiography - are all late and often whimsical. The "Muhammad of Faith" should rather be considered as a literary construction intended to legitimize the Koran , according to the prophetic model of the Bible. Like the biblical Moses, he can be seen as a spiritual figure but not as a historical figure.

    It is clear that the Quran has been written by several authors and has emerged over a long period of time , at least two centuries. It is the result of persistent theological debates in late Middle Eastern antiquity. It must have been initially a collection or lectionary of more or less biblical texts intended for Arabic speakers, which was gradually modified and Islamized at a later stage - to the point that many passages often have no meaning in Arabic! We are dealing with a composite text containing many interpolations, like the four mentions supposed to "Muhammad" which are clearly late additions.


    Quote
    Robert Kerr, a former Canadian Army officer, studied Semitic languages ​​and literatures in Vancouver, Tübingen and Leiden. After teaching at several universities in Canada, he is now Director of the Inârah Institute at Saarland University (Sarrebrück) - Institute for Research on the History of the Origins of Islam and the Koran ( www.inarah .de ).


    Damn   that Q&A  was published  on JANUARY 7, 2019.. Where as I am saying same thing/ something like that  and more..
    Quote
    .............."Quran is a book of its time from  multiple authors and these story writers  never read what others  wrote in it.   Where as Prophet of Islam is a collection of Hadith stories whose  Character and actions are based upon  military and political leaders of Islam from the  First 4 or 5 centuries of early  Islamic history " .. Incidentally all those stories appears to be written by those WHO CONVERTED IN TO ISLAM FROM OTHER FAITHS rather born in to Islam .. such as these guys ..


    for a Loooo00000ng time

    https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/world-history/medieval-times/social-institutions-in-the-islamic-world/a/medieval-muslim-societies

    Hmm let me casually ask a question to Google godless

    Quote
    Notable converts to Islam

    Quote
    Some Famous  converts to Islam from  Judaism

    Abdullah ibn Salam (Al-Husayn ibn Salam)6th-century companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. 

    Abdullah ibn Salam – 7th-century sahabi said to have been a rabbi of aristocratic stock.

    Ka'ab al-Ahbar – 7th-century Yemenite Jew. Considered to be the earliest authority on Isra'iliyyat and South Arabian lore.

    Harun ibn Musa – 8th-century scholar of Hadith and Qira'at, and the first compiler of the different styles of Qur'anic recitation.

    Al-Ru'asi – 8th-century scholar of Arabic grammar and the founder of the Kufan school of grammar.

    Yaqub ibn Killis – 10th-century Egyptian vizier under the Fatimids

    Hibat Allah Abu'l-Barakat al-Baghdaadi (Baruch Ben Malka) – influential 12th-century physicist, philosopher, and scientist who wrote a critique of Aristotelian philosophy and Aristotelian physics.

    Ibn Yahyā al-Maghribī al-Samaw'al – 12th-century mathematician and astronomer.
     
    Rashid-al-Din Hamadani – 13th-century Persian physician

    Ibn Sahl of Seville – 13th-century Andalusian poet.


    Some Famous  converts to Islam from  Christianity

    Salman the Persian or Salman al-Farsi (Arabic: سلمان الفارسي‎ Salmān al-Fārisī), born Rouzbeh (Persian: روزبه‎), was a companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and the first Persian who converted to Islam

    Robert of St. Albans – 1185... English templar knight who converted to Islam from Christianity in 1185 and led an army for Saladin against the Crusaders in Jerusalem

    Abu Tammam – 9th-century Arab poet born to Christian parents

    Tekuder – Mongol leader of the Ilkhan empire; formerly a Nestorian Christian ...ruler from 1304 to 1316 in Tabriz, Iran

    Mihnea Turcitul – Prince (Voivode) of Walachia; converted from Eastern Orthodox Christianity  1564–1601

    Handan Sultan – mother of Ottoman sultan Ahmed I  Handan Sultan (Ottoman Turkish: خندان سلطان‎; died 9 November 1605) was the consort of Sultan Mehmed III, and Valide Sultan to their son Sultan Ahmed I.

    Kösem Sultan – born Anastasia, the daughter of an Orthodox priest, and later enslaved by Ottomans and sent to Istanbul, where she became powerful and influential woman in the Ottoman Empire

    Sokollu Mehmed Pasha (1506–1578) – Ottoman statesman; born Orthodox, converted through devşirme.
     
    Mimar Sinan –(1488/1490 – July 17, 1588) Ottoman architect; converted to Islam and trained as an officer of the Janissary corps.

    Ahmad Faris Shidyaq –(1805 – 20 September 1887) Lebanese scholar, writer and journalist; Maronite convert to Islam

    Ilie II Rareş –  )1531–1562) prince of Moldavia

    Murat Reis or Jan Janszoon –  1620 Dutch Barbary pirate who was an admiral for the Republic of Salé; converted from Christianity; became a very active Muslim missionary who tried to convert Christian slaves

    Marmaduke Pickthall- English Islamic Scholar and translator of the Quran

    Omar Pasha (1806–1871) – Ottoman general, born Orthodox

    Ibrahim Muteferrika  –  (Turkish: İbrahim Müteferrika; 1674–1745 CE) was a Hungarian-born Ottoman diplomat, publisher, economist, historian, Islamic theologian, sociologist,[1] and the first Muslim to run a printing press with movable Arabic type

    Mleh, Prince of Armenia –   (before 1120 – Sis, May 15, 1175)[ Armenian convert to Islam from the Armenian Apostolic Church; 

    Köse Mihal – 13th century – c. 1340 Byzantine renegade; accompanied Osman al-Ghazi in his ascent to power and converted to Islam

    Fernão Lopes – 16th-century Portuguese soldier; tortured and disfigured by Christians for siding with Muslims

    Badr al-Din Lu'lu' – 1220....Armenian convert to Islam  and successor to the Zangid rulers of Mosul

    Leo of Tripoli – 921/2 ...Byzantine Greek renegade who freed 4000 Muslim prisoners while attacking the Byzantine city of Thessalonica

    Allahverdi Khan – 1660 general and statesman of Georgian origin who was Christian

    Ibn Jazla – 11th-century physician and Christian convert who later wrote to refute doctrines of Christianity .
    Mahmud Ghazan (1271– 11 May 1304) (Mongolian: Газан хаан, Arabic: محمود غازان‎, sometimes referred to as Casanus by Westerners  was the seventh ruler of the Mongol Empire' seventh ruler of the Ilkhanate division of the Mongol Empire

    Firouz – 1060 Armenian Christian convert to Islam

    All those guys were quite famous people of their time in their respective fields...  I am sure they all must had interesting personal stories more or less similar to Prophet of Islam story....

    well stories goes on and on .. let  me read this

    The Koran did not originate in Mecca or Medina’  By Robert Kerr..

    THE UMAYYAD DYNASTY’S CONVERSION TO ISLAM

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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