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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6990 - June 12, 2019, 03:53 PM
    Quote
    hmm i didn't know that book.,


    A must read.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6991 - June 12, 2019, 04:00 PM
    Quote from: Altara on June 12, 2019, 03:53 PM
    A must read.

    i will read that dr. Bernard Lewis book..  but Altara what is you opinion  on the works of Bernard Lewis  Vs Edward Said...

    I hope you will not be biased on judging them because Bernard Lewis is from West and Edward Said is from East...    Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6992 - June 12, 2019, 04:58 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAmLNc_4VtE


    that is Ooooold and worth watching..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6993 - June 12, 2019, 05:28 PM
    Why is Edward Said being posted...?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6994 - June 12, 2019, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: Altara on June 11, 2019, 10:40 PM
    He said himself he was not competent in his blog. You can check.


    I see. Sure. Did not dispute that. Only that he knows Syriac.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6995 - June 12, 2019, 05:34 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 12, 2019, 05:28 PM
    Why is Edward Said being posted...?

    Why??  Why??  hmm did i upset you dear Mahgraye ??

    then i will give you this   Cheesy


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb9Ny-41C_I
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6996 - June 12, 2019, 05:35 PM
    I simply don't see the relevance or Lewis or Said to anything discussed on this forum.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6997 - June 12, 2019, 07:11 PM
    Great opportunity to learn more about Said.  Not everybody on this forum knows everything...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6998 - June 12, 2019, 07:49 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 12, 2019, 04:00 PM
    i will read that dr. Bernard Lewis book..  but Altara what is you opinion  on the works of Bernard Lewis  Vs Edward Said...

    I hope you will not be biased on judging them because Bernard Lewis is from West and Edward Said is from East...    Cheesy


    I'm not really convinced by what Said develops; Orientalism, etc. Lewis is an historian it is not the same register.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6999 - June 12, 2019, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: Altara on June 12, 2019, 07:49 PM
    I'm not really convinced by what Said develops; Orientalism, etc. Lewis is an historian it is not the same register.

    I  must agree with you on that.... But Edward was  born in Egypt right in the middle of Nazi rise and 2nd world war .. so his view of history was shaped by that colonial rules and rulers and his idea of  "colonialism shaped Islam " from 17th to 19th century.  At the end results he did not like west not supporting independence of  his beloved nation Palestine  ..  but I think his views on Islam as faith is totally clouded by his hypocritical thinking  on Slavery and Colonial mindset of people who were colonized by the west..  And  and without doubt HE WAS A ONE OF THE CRITICAL THINKERS   20th century

    as far as Lewis is concerned please read these link  and rebut  it

    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-muslim-discovery-of-europe-by-bernard-lewis/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYLeg6Lwdcg

    that one and half hr tube is good one to watch.....lol..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7000 - June 12, 2019, 10:31 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 12, 2019, 05:35 PM
    I simply don't see the relevance or Lewis or Said to anything discussed on this forum.


    Well  you are  riot dear  Mahgraye  ....   you are  riot    these discussions HAVE NO RELEVANCE TO THIS FORUM AND ITS READERS...  but that is what you expect from a foolish guy like me..

    anyways please give me your opinion on this video   "A Dialogue between   Prof. Bernard Lewis (Prof. Emeritus, Princeton University)  and Prof. Robert Wistrich ...., February 16, 2010"

    Prof. Bernard Lewis - Radical Islam, Israel and the West

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KePJz28_GY


    So  do you think  Prof. Bernard Lewis is a historian or ...??


    Quote
    Bernard Lewis, FBA (31 May 1916 – 19 May 2018) was a British American historian specializing in oriental studies.[2] He was also known as a public intellectual and political commentator. Lewis was the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. Lewis' expertise was in the history of Islam and the interaction between Islam and the West.


    damn he was active all the way too  100 years...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7001 - June 13, 2019, 10:37 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 12, 2019, 10:17 PM
    as far as Lewis is concerned please read these link  and rebut  it

    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-muslim-discovery-of-europe-by-bernard-lewis/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYLeg6Lwdcg
    with best wishes
    yeezevee



    Interesting paper.Read the book.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7002 - June 13, 2019, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: Altara on June 13, 2019, 10:37 AM
    Interesting paper.  Read the book.

    i will  i will., thank  you for letting me know about that book.,  I was casually looking  at dr. Lewis stellar contribution to the history and i realized that he published a paper in 1957 with same heading.. in "Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London"

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/610392?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

     
     well i need to get that his 1957 publication....  and read his book and read lot more of his works dear Altara
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7003 - June 13, 2019, 01:32 PM
    Gabriel S. Reynolds has just tweeted an interview with Joseph van Ess.
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1139131890701651970?s=19
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7004 - June 13, 2019, 02:56 PM
    Just commenced, interesting things (yawn...)

    https://www.academia.edu/39004498/Re-Interpretatio_Christiana_CHRISTIANIZED_QUR%CA%BE%C4%80NIC_HERMENEUTICS_AND_THE_CAMEL_METHOD
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7005 - June 13, 2019, 11:34 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 13, 2019, 01:32 PM
    Gabriel S. Reynolds has just tweeted an interview with Joseph van Ess.
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1139131890701651970?s=19


    Interesting interview from Josef Van Ess

    http://www.goethe.de/ges/phi/prj/ffs/the/a96/en8626506.htm

    Quote
    As far as Kufa is concerned, we have reports from those crazy Gnostics from the early Islamic period. It was obviously primarily Shiite ideas that flourished there and engendered the strangest fantasies. At some point these must have been expressed and must have attracted followers, otherwise they would never have been set down in writing. 


    Lol.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7006 - June 14, 2019, 03:39 AM
    https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/francois-deroche/_audiovideos.htm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7007 - June 14, 2019, 12:58 PM
    MVP and other stuff...
    MVP as usual re affirms the Nabatean origin of the Quranic script I could have wait the eternity to get an explication of how it happens; the angel Gabriel?
    https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/francois-deroche/symposium-2019-06-07-09h45.htm
    Interesting stuff about the transmission (in French)
    Transmission by "meaning", lecture by Hassan Chahdi
    As he is a great believer, Chahdi is in the paradigm of the narrative, but what he said can be applied to a written transmission. As I already said, the use of poorly folios as exemplar can just as well explain the use of synonyms as I explained about the Saana palimpsest.
    And Déroche Clauses and flexibility (in French).


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7008 - June 15, 2019, 02:38 PM
    Yeah - Virtually all scholars affirm the Nabatean origins of the Arabic, and by extension, Quranic script.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7009 - June 15, 2019, 02:50 PM
    Marijn van Putten is definitely no fan of Jay Smith, "Christian apologist".

    "That's a totally absurd claim that is peddled by Christian apologists.

    The quranic consonantal text reached full closure around 650. The "30 versions" are the traditional reading traditions, the first 7 of get described around the year 1000 and 3 more some centuries later"
    .......
    "I'm not attacking them. I'm literally stating the facts here. 1. It's a claim made by christian apologists 2. It is absurd.
    The evidence: we have Quran manuscripts from the 7th century that are word-for-word identical to the text we have today."
    .....
    "
    As for the reading transitions: they were canonized by Ibn Mujāhid and Ibn al-Jazarī. But we find traces of these readings before both of their lifetimes already in manuscripts. The "30 versions" of print Qurans are just different readings brought in print."

    Do you agree with MVP here? Should we just forget about the "30 Qurans"? Did the consonantal skeleton reach full closure around 650?
    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1139418703194255360
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7010 - June 15, 2019, 02:53 PM
    Yes - we should. MVP said everything there is to say. I have been trying (albeit poorly) to convey this all along. I even remember Smith being humiliated by a Muslim apologist some time ago. Literally, every claim he made was false or misleading. The guy does not even know what the first or the seventh century is or what the difference between a manuscript and a codex. Yeah, he is that dumb. Again, I am perplexed that this is news to anyone on this forum. What next? There are various readings?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7011 - June 15, 2019, 03:21 PM
    Tommaso Tesei makes here a twitter thread  "on the composition and canonization of the Qurʾānic material"
    ...
    "5/21 Even if the actual period to which the fragmentary manuscripts should be ascribed is unclear, there seems to be an increasing scholarly consensus that the corpus reached a stable or quasi-stable form around the middle of the 7th century – a position that I myself advocate."
    ....
    Though Tesei thinks the corpus reached a stable or quasi- stable form in the mid 7th century, he thinks that many things could have happened between the death of Muhammad and about 650 and influenced the way it was written or composed.

    https://twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1137705615965507585
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7012 - June 15, 2019, 03:22 PM
    Yes - this is the scholarly consensus after years of research. I even posted a brief paragraph of mine on this consensus, citing, among others, Tesei.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7013 - June 15, 2019, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 15, 2019, 02:50 PM
    Marijn van Putten is definitely no fan of Jay Smith, "Christian apologist".

    "That's a totally absurd claim that is peddled by Christian apologists.

    The quranic consonantal text reached full closure around 650. The "30 versions" are the traditional reading traditions, the first 7 of get described around the year 1000 and 3 more some centuries later"
    .......
    "I'm not attacking them. I'm literally stating the facts here. 1. It's a claim made by christian apologists 2. It is absurd.
    The evidence: we have Quran manuscripts from the 7th century that are word-for-word identical to the text we have today."
    .....
    "
    As for the reading transitions: they were canonized by Ibn Mujāhid and Ibn al-Jazarī. But we find traces of these readings before both of their lifetimes already in manuscripts. The "30 versions" of print Qurans are just different readings brought in print."

    Do you agree with MVP here? Should we just forget about the "30 Qurans"? Did the consonantal skeleton reach full closure around 650?
    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1139418703194255360


    MVP play on words and he knows it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7014 - June 15, 2019, 06:08 PM
    How?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7015 - June 15, 2019, 07:40 PM
    Quote
    MVP play on words and he knows it.


    Agree, just dont understand why all of a sudden.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7016 - June 15, 2019, 07:41 PM
    Whom are you quoting, mundi?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7017 - June 15, 2019, 07:55 PM
    altara
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7018 - June 15, 2019, 07:56 PM
    Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7019 - June 16, 2019, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: Altara on June 15, 2019, 05:54 PM
    MVP play on words and he knows it.

    there is nothing new in that.,    Quran plays with words and that also goes to many so-called religious scriptures of all faiths., and many songs sonnets and stories old times and modern times play  with words   dear Altara .,

    https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/47177/AEN_3.4final.pdf?sequence=3

    and i am just curious here...  on this
    Quote
    Marijn van Putten @PhDniX
     
    I'm not attacking them. I'm literally stating the facts here. 1. It's a claim made by christian apologists 2. It is absurd.
    The evidence:   we have Quran manuscripts from the 7th century that are word-for-word identical to the text we have today.


    is that unquestionable fact??  all words .. every word?  all 114 chapters.. every chapter in the same sequence??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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