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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6900 - June 07, 2019, 02:36 PM
    Thanks yeez,

    I don't see a pre-1924 arabic Quran.... You know I am a sceptic, I don't take much for granted ...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6901 - June 07, 2019, 02:37 PM
    What is a pre-1924 Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6902 - June 07, 2019, 02:56 PM
    Quote from: mundi on June 07, 2019, 02:36 PM

    I don't see a pre-1924 arabic Quran....  You know I am a sceptic, I don't take much for granted ...

      well   that is very basic  and it is vital to any field of inquiry


    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 07, 2019, 02:37 PM
    What is a pre-1924 Quran?


    Well    pre-1924 arabic Quran...  and what is  pre-1924 Quran?.,  those are important Questions...   

    is    pre-1924 Quran  ....  WAS  IT ORAL??  Cheesy  ..lol..

    HI MUNDI   would you like to read this link??

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140429213509/http://www.monthlycrescent.com/understanding-the-quran/english-translations-of-the-quran/
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6903 - June 07, 2019, 03:59 PM
    Quote from: mundi on June 07, 2019, 02:10 PM

    What I wonder is, how come eg Shia just accepted the 1924 Quran? Do their pre-1924 Qurans differ substantially? Has anyone looked into it?


    Shii did not have the choice, as they have never displayed the one they claim Ali had (very big, etc...).Why? Because it was a fake news which could be surely holding in the 7th c. but  not after.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6904 - June 07, 2019, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: Altara on June 07, 2019, 03:59 PM
    Shii did not have the choice, as they have never displayed the one they claim Ali had (very big, etc...)...................


    Shia hater with shia  Islam phobia
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6905 - June 07, 2019, 04:24 PM
    Yeah. Who doesn't hate shias and their claims haha
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6906 - June 07, 2019, 04:32 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 07, 2019, 04:24 PM
    Yeah. Who doesn't hate shias and their claims haha

    I  knew and know NOTHING about  their claims except visiting   dargahs  eating sweets  but my grand mother was Shia Muslim by birth., and was a most beautiful person inside out.. I was a happiest kid    until she died ..  and then life changes   180 degrees...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6907 - June 07, 2019, 04:32 PM
    My apologies.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6908 - June 07, 2019, 04:38 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 07, 2019, 04:18 PM
    Shia hater with shia  Islam phobia


    ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6909 - June 07, 2019, 04:39 PM
    good links to read  

    Sunni vs. Shia

    History of the compilation of Quran

    the 2nd one is from a turkey  
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6910 - June 07, 2019, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: Altara on June 07, 2019, 04:38 PM
    ?

    Hmm...  that question mark certainly tells me you are a hater dear Altara   Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6911 - June 07, 2019, 04:56 PM
    And where your Shia grand mother came from ?  Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6912 - June 07, 2019, 04:56 PM
    Iraq.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6913 - June 07, 2019, 05:00 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Altara on June 07, 2019, 04:56 PM
    And where your Shia grand mother came from ?  Smiley

    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 07, 2019, 04:56 PM
    Iraq.



    She  was born in present Pakistan.....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6914 - June 07, 2019, 05:15 PM
    Hmm  I  need to get and scan through some of these books

    Quote
    1.    The Al-coran of Mohamet (1649) by Alexandor Ross. This translation based on Andre Du Ryer’s French rendition contains many distortions and misinterpretations.

    2.    The Koran: commonly called the AlKoran of Mohammad (1734) by George Sale. Most widely circulated translation with more than 125 editions published so far.

    3.    The Koran (1861) by John Meadows Rodwell adopted rearrangement of the Quran in so called chronological order and tries his best to establish that the basic sources of the Quran are Jewish and Christian scriptures.

    4.    The Koran (1880) by Edward Henry Palmer.

    5.    The Koran translated (1937) by Richard Bell.

    6.    The Koran interpreted (1955) by Arthur John Arberry. It is a better translation compared to the previously published ones.

    7.    The Koran (1956) by Niseem J. Dawood. The first translation by an Iraq born Jew.

    8.    The Noble Quran (1979) by Aharon Ben Shemesh: this translation by another Jew was published by Massada Press (Tel Aviv).

    9.    The Quran: A new translation (2004) by Thomas cleary and published by Starlatch Press USA).

    10.    The Holy Quran (1905) by Muhammad Abdul Hakim Khan (a Physician by Profession) published from Patiala (India) is the first complete translation of the Quran by a Muslim.

    11.    The Quran translated into English (Allahabad (India) 1912) by Mirza Abul Fadl.

    12.    The Koran: prepared by various oriental learned scholars and edited by Mirza Hairat Dehlvi (1912).

    13.    The Holy Quran: translation by Muhammad Ali Lahori (Ahmadi) published from Lahore (Now Pakistan) in 1917.

    14.    Translation of the Holy Quran (1920) by Ghulam Sarwar.

    15.    The Meaning of the Glorious Quran (London 1930) by Muhammad Marmaduke William Pickthall. This is the first translation which was received with full acceptance by Muslims and non Muslims.

    16.    The Holy Quran: translation and commentary (1934) by Abdullah Yousuf Ali. This translation though by a person born in a Bohra family of Mumbai (India) has remained the most widely published and circulated translation since its first publication.

    17.    The Glorious Quran, text, translation and commentary by Moulana Abdul Majid Daryaabadi (1941). This translation is more true to the text of the Quran and the footnotes inspiring and convincing.

    18.    The message of the Quran presented in perspective (1974) by Hashim Amir Ali.

    19.    The Noble Quran (Chicago 1977) by Taquidin Al Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan.

    20. The Message of the Quran by Muhammad Asad (formerly Leopoled Weis) published in 1980 from Gijbraltor took the English translation of the Quran to new heights.

    21.    Holy Quran: translation by M.H. Shakir (New York 1982).

    22.    The Quran: translation by T.B. Iruing (Now Talim Ali) Published from Vermont in 1985.

    23.    The Quran: The Conclusive word of God by Q. Arafat (Leicester 1991)

    24.    The Quran (1990) English translation by Egypt born, husband wife team Ahmad and Dina Zidan now residents of England.

    25.    The Quran: interpretation in context (1996) Quran Literary Institute Illinois USA by one of greatest scholars of Arabic and English in the present times Ahmad Zaki Hammad of Egypt. The author has adopted a unique and modern scientific method of explaining the Quran. His works about Quran include:
    I.    The opening to the Quran: Commentary and Vocabulary reference of Al-Fatiha.
    II.    One God: The Everlasting Refuge- Commentary and Vocabulary reference of Surat Al-Ikhlas.
    III.    Father of the Flame: Commentary and Vocabulary reference of Surat al Masad (Al-Lahab).
    IV.    The Fairest of the Stories: An interlinear Commentary on Surat Yousuf.
    V.    Marry: the Chosen Women: An interlinear commentary on Surat Maryam.
    VI.    The Great Tiding: An interlinear Commentary on Surat Al-Naba.

    26.    The Quran: Arabic Text with corresponding English meaning by Um Muhammad- an American Women, who accepted Islam- Published by Saheeh International Jeddah KSA (1997). The translation is primarily based on Al-Hilali and Muhsin Khan’s Commentary.

    27.    Meaning of the Noble Quran- world famous English translation published by Islamic Book Service New Delhi is a good attempt to make understanding of the Quran easy to the (non Arabic knowing) English speaking people.

    28. Quran: the living truth by Bashir Ahmad Mohyidin (2003).

    29.    The Quran- phrase by phrase English translation by Ali Quli Qarai (London 2003).

    30. The meaning of the Noble Quran with explanatory notes by Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani (Karachi 2007).

    31.    The Gracious Quran: A Modern phrased interpretation in English by Ahmad Zaki Hammad (Quran Literary Institute, Illinois USA 2007).

    In addition to the above mentioned translations and commentaries many Arabic and Urdu commentaries of the Quran have been rendered into English. Noteworthy among those are, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, English translation published by Darussalam Publisher and Distributors (Riyad 2000); A.A. Moudoodi’s Tafheemul Quran translated by Zafar Ishaq Ansari (Islamic Foundation UK), Syed Qutub’s Fizilal Al Quran translated into English as ‘In the Sahde of the Quran’ by Adil Salahi and Ashur Shamis; Mufti Muhammad Shafi’s Maariful Quran translated by Prof. M. Askar and M. Wali Razi and Muhammad Al Gazali’s ‘A Thematic Commentary on the Quran’ Published by International Institute of Islamic though Herndon USA in 2000 AC.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6915 - June 07, 2019, 07:43 PM
    So two posts .. One from Altara and one from mundi ..... Both needs to explored in detail for answers ..  well let me put them here to keep reminding myself and reminding other readers

    Quote from: Altara on June 02, 2019, 08:52 AM
    1.   This question is interesting because when one reads the narrative it is exactly what it is stated : texts written on bones of camels, etc., and in the same time people who knew it by heart (inducing oral transmission which will serves to say that there is just some reading to the illiterate people) who dies (conveniently ...) and that necessitated that the text have to be written. It reflects I think the issue faced by them:
    1/ The Quran says that it is an oral proclamation.
    2/ However 8, and 9 th c. polygraphs have texts.


    1/The Quran necessarily says the truth about itself (hahaha!) 
    2/Therefore it was necessary to put together in the narrative what the Quran says about itself and what was the reality they constate, namely, texts.


    Quote
    Quote from: mundi on June 07, 2019, 02:17 PM
    Shia Quran:

    2A; Question is how much does it differ from the 1924 Cairo Quran.

    And follow up: does it differ in the same way as the pre 1924 Sunni Qurans. Or is there a specific pre 1924 tradition for both sects.


    Quote from: mundi on June 07, 2019, 02:14 PM

    2B:  you check with a pre-1924 Quran
     

     


    So let me add a bit on that 1924 Quran.. The Quran Canonization in 1924


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h3Uqp1N2pk

    This video clip is from a debate between a Christian evangelist and a Islam dawagandist titled as Which is the Word of God? The Bible or the Qur'an?"    it was between dr. Jay Smith and Dr. Shabir Ally in 2014,

    Shabir ...Dr. Shabir Ally  you are Nuts..... .,  Jay Smith looks better because of fools like you....


    So forget about Quran 8th century.. 9th century   but........In fact many well educated Muslims  and So called Muslim Scholars and Non-Muslim Scholars who are exploring origins of Quran through Academic universities KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT THAT 1924  Quran .. where it came from and and how it was published first in   Egypt ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6916 - June 07, 2019, 08:21 PM
    Thanks Yeez for moderating the discussion!

    What I mean by the pre 1924 Quran is an arabic Quran circulating eg in Teheran in 1900. How stable is that rasm, how stable is the reading? All this compared to 1924 Cairo (which is the Al-Dani edition 891) .

    If Jay Smith found 30 Qurans even today with Cairo 1924 at every publishers disposal, how many more would he have found if he was doing the work in 1900?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6917 - June 07, 2019, 09:36 PM
    A video for Maghraye  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUU9LAOQZPk&list=PL1V-Od82Y10rqQYoG8O4XjWJ6wnq3ZO6j

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6918 - June 07, 2019, 10:59 PM
     
    Quote from: Marc S on June 07, 2019, 09:36 PM
    A video for Maghraye  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUU9LAOQZPk&list=PL1V-Od82Y10rqQYoG8O4XjWJ6wnq3ZO6j




    and a video for  Marc S

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZusWj-G8fjg

    lol...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6919 - June 08, 2019, 12:54 AM
    Quote from: mundi on June 07, 2019, 08:21 PM
    .........................

    What I mean by the pre 1924 Quran is an arabic Quran circulating eg in Teheran in 1900. How stable is that rasm, how stable is the reading? All this compared to 1924 Cairo (which is the Al-Dani edition 891) .........


     yes  that is another important problem in solving the origins of the present book Quran .,   indeed it needs to be clarified.,,  but to start with let us clean up the origins of  that 1924 Quran from Egypt....  after all it is not even 100 year old  and there are plenty of books all over the world over 300 year old....

    well watch this

    https://omny.fm/shows/let-us-reason/19-2-2
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6920 - June 08, 2019, 06:22 PM
    Marc Durie summarizing his new book:

    https://interfaceinstitute.org/2019/06/08/the-qurans-turn-to-violence/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6921 - June 08, 2019, 07:20 PM
    Quote from: mundi on June 07, 2019, 08:21 PM
    ..............  1924 Cairo (which is the Al-Dani edition 891) ....................


    Hi mundi.,  hello mundi  .

     give me bit more info from  books.. links..blogs published papers.. whatever.....  from Islamic Quran experts as well as non-islamic  academic  Quran experts  on that 1924 Cairo Quran...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6922 - June 08, 2019, 07:44 PM
    Quote from: mundi on June 07, 2019, 08:21 PM
    Thanks Yeez for moderating the discussion!

    What I mean by the pre 1924 Quran is an arabic Quran circulating eg in Teheran in 1900. How stable is that rasm, how stable is the reading? All this compared to 1924 Cairo (which is the Al-Dani edition 891) .

    If Jay Smith found 30 Qurans even today with Cairo 1924 at every publishers disposal, how many more would he have found if he was doing the work in 1900?




    The same. There are no 30 Quran's.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6923 - June 08, 2019, 07:45 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on June 07, 2019, 09:36 PM
    A video for Maghraye  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUU9LAOQZPk&list=PL1V-Od82Y10rqQYoG8O4XjWJ6wnq3ZO6j




    Why for me of all people, haha. Classic Yahya Snow. And yes, he was probably owned, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6924 - June 08, 2019, 07:48 PM
    Quote
    Dr. Mark Durie is an academic, human rights activist, Anglican pastor, a Shillman-Ginsburg Writing Fellow at the Middle East Forum, and Adjunct Research Fellow of the Arthur Jeffery Centre for the Study of Islam at Melbourne School of Theology.



    Damn...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6925 - June 08, 2019, 07:49 PM
    Maggraye,

    Van Putten finds non-canonical readings deep in the Ottoman era. He doesnt find them later because he isn't looking later, not his research area.

    Why would the variants have stopped all of a sudden? We know (follow Van Putten +co on twitter ) that Cairo went back to Al-Dani, Al-Dani, together with Abū Dāwūd. But btw Al-Dani and Cairo 1924 there are 1000 years. Are we supposed to assume that miraculously all pre 1924 Qurans converged to the Al-Dani 1924 Cairo edition???

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6926 - June 08, 2019, 07:59 PM
    Since you follow Van Putten, read his thread on the reliability of Dānī’s book which is the basis of the 1923 Cairene printed edition. And the claim the 1923 edition did not consult manuscripts is not entirely accurate either, as Dānī did consult manuscripts (see Van Putten). Couple this with the high concordance of Dānī’s information with the manuscripts too. One can safely assume that the 1923 edition is reliable unless proven otherwise, by comparing it some early manuscripts, CPP, for instance. The diacritical markings of the former match quite nicely with the latter.

    Non-canonical readings presuppose the standard rasm, as you well know, unless we are talking about different kinds of readings.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6927 - June 08, 2019, 08:07 PM
    Qurans:

    I don't dispute that the Cairo 1924 has about the same rasm as the earliest manuscripts. And that is because: ( dixit Van Putten)

    Quote
    No, it (Quran 1924)'s based on 4th/5th century works describing the Quranic text in old manuscripts!


    Those works are the ones of Al-Dani and Dawoud. They must have had access to old manuscripts.

    But that exactly is my point. Cairo 1924 is probably a much better representative of the oldest rasm than a random Quran you would find anywhere in the world pre 1924.  And that is what Jay Smith is probably still finding. The remnants of the divergence of readings, even now that each editor has access to Cairo 1924.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6928 - June 08, 2019, 08:10 PM
    Here is a Twitter thread, where van Putten writes about al- Dani and the 1924 edition.
    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1067737350812377088

    "The Cairo Edition is based not on early manuscripts but medieval *descriptions* of the consonantal texts of early Manuscripts, most notably Al-Dānī's muqniʿ.

    If Al-Dānī get things right (which he does very often) the Cairo edition gets it right too. Sometimes Al-Dānī is wrong"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6929 - June 08, 2019, 08:10 PM
    Yeah. The 1923 edition is not infallible.
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