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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6780 - May 29, 2019, 04:36 PM
    Read and intervene is not the same thing. They would have nothing to say as such here.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6781 - May 29, 2019, 07:29 PM
    Intervene:


    Why not have a look at the Qasr Qatal necropolis! Oldest graves and qiblq in direction of Petra (190 dg), later Abbassid ones direction of Mecca.

    Does that fit in your narrative Altara?

    Scholars who are reading this (I wish   grin12), any explanation?

    The basalt grave stones are in the Madaba museum. I'm trying to find the translation of the texts. Imbert apparently made a report I Haven't found yet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6782 - May 29, 2019, 09:57 PM
    Quote
    Does that fit in your narrative Altara?


    The issue of the direction, for prayer or buried bodies, is far more ancient  than the Quran. From the conflict between Samaritans and Jews then after new direction for Christians.
    I (really...) do not think that this stuff have to do with Dan Gibson Petra. Really.  If mosque, bodies, etc., were pointing to Petra first, it is because earliest muhagirun (maybe) thought that it was the city of the "Prophet" ambiguously describe in the Quran.  Simply because they were not what one says of them, namely that they're coming from the peninsula. This idea is evidenced by the fact that the 9th c. narrative to describe Mecca, uses the Petra topography. It is the thing that Gibson bring in the field.  He did not dig about this stuff : normal, he is not an historian. Why they identifies Mecca to Petra without never talking about it? I think that they imagined that Mecca was like Petra at the Prophet time : great city of commerce, etc. They decided that it would be a good model to describe the "Mecca of the Prophet": Occam's razor tells me that it is a logical explication.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6783 - May 29, 2019, 10:49 PM
    Quote from: mundi on May 29, 2019, 01:44 PM


    Gibson associates it with the battle of Badr . Probably that is imagination.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELh-uIHjPbc&feature=youtu.be&a=). 


    Talking about Badr   https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/842791863224614912
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6784 - May 29, 2019, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: mundi on May 29, 2019, 01:44 PM
    Altara

    Graves:

    Gibson associates it with the battle of Badr . Probably that is imagination.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELh-uIHjPbc&feature=youtu.be&a=).  But the archeological report I found (http://www.chambres-hotes-morin-salome.fr/Qastal-chateau-omeyyade.html) show that the oldest tombs face Petra (190 dg).


    I am not sure how you can say from this link you gave that those graves do face Petra ; I read it (quickly) but didn't find anything validating your assumption.

    If I add what you say about those tombs (face Petra 190 degrees), the link you gave say those tombs are oriented 281.82°.

    Can you elaborate please ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6785 - May 30, 2019, 07:52 AM
    Necropolis:

    I gave gave a few links but have more of course. You have to consider different sources (including google earth) to get the complete picture.

    Here you find a sketch of the graves: http://publication.doa.gov.jo/Publications/ViewChapterPublic/2575

    Tombs oriented at 281 is in the long direction. The bodies FACE a point at 191 dg (minus 90). Just as the Qibla of that early mosque did. You find everywhere that the Qastal mosque is in the direction of Jerusalem. That is ridiculous, especially when considering the mosque orientation.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6786 - May 30, 2019, 08:01 AM
    Badr:

    The polemic around this goes over my head. I suppose Badr didnt happen where the traditional narrative says it did or where Gibson says it did.

    Gibson's huge added value is that he comes up  with this Qastal divergent mosque and necropolis and brings it to the attention. The" traditional scholars" hear the name Gibson and that is enough to ignore these archeological data. Sad...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6787 - May 30, 2019, 08:03 AM
    Altara,

    You call for the importance of different disciplines to work together. I think archeology is also an important factor. It is hard evidence  and that is scarce in the field.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6788 - May 30, 2019, 08:52 AM
    Quote from: mundi on May 30, 2019, 07:52 AM
    Necropolis:

    I gave gave a few links but have more of course. You have to consider different sources (including google earth) to get the complete picture.



    Ok thanks I will have a look.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6789 - May 30, 2019, 09:01 AM
    Quote from: mundi on May 30, 2019, 08:01 AM
    Badr:

    The polemic around this goes over my head. I suppose Badr didnt happen where the traditional narrative says it did or where Gibson says it did.

    Gibson's huge added value is that he comes up  with this Qastal divergent mosque and necropolis and brings it to the attention. The" traditional scholars" hear the name Gibson and that is enough to ignore these archeological data. Sad...


    The issue with Gibson is that he takes all the muslim narrative at face value except for the Mecca location ; nothing does prove that there was a battle of Badr ; the list of martyrs look more like an attempt to "glorify" specific families as having been involved in the begining of Islam and having died for it ; also, regarding his comments on the graves at Qastal, nothing does indicate graves older than the Umayyad era from my knowledge (but I might be wrong and I don't know the exact details that led Gibson to state what he did about 13 graves).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6790 - May 30, 2019, 09:05 AM
    Quote from: mundi on May 30, 2019, 08:03 AM
    Altara,

    You call for the importance of different disciplines to work together. I think archeology is also an important factor. It is hard evidence  and that is scarce in the field.



    Numismatics is also a very important tool that almost everyone has discarded or know nothing about, though I see more and more people mentionning it and, surprisingly, among people who are not historians by trade.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6791 - May 30, 2019, 09:23 AM
    Badr and Gibson:

    I agree here. Gibson's story is very entertaining but I don't see why his traditional sources would contain more than a kernel of truth.

    Imbert's "La nécropole de Qatal": http://publication.doa.gov.jo/Publications/ViewChapterPublic/2575
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6792 - May 30, 2019, 12:24 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on May 29, 2019, 11:01 PM
    I am not sure how you can say from this link you gave that those graves do face Petra ; I read it (quickly) but didn't find anything validating your assumption.

    If I add what you say about those tombs (face Petra 190 degrees), the link you gave say those tombs are oriented 281.82°.

    Can you elaborate please ?


    Sorry guys... but if you start to count degrees about graves facing Petra ... One knows that it was a  Late Antique Christian city  where if someone would have talking  to God that would have left necessarily traces one way or another. All graduated history students knows that.
    Gibson is incapable to respond to this simple and logical objection.
    That is why his thesis cannot be taken seriously because this simple point should have stopped him to elaborate  what he has elaborated about his Petra thesis without giving an explication to this issue. As there is none explication . There is none because considering the cultural environment it is not possible that there is no traces (archaeological, epigraphical, scribal). And if there is no traces, it is because Petra was never the place of what the 9th c. narrative recounts.
    Gibson is (unfortunately...) a  stubborn guy and is not able to examine this simple fact because this story is the reason why he exists in the field and in the Internet . He is like a child with tools that he does not mastering because he was not trained to master them.
    Stop counting degrees guys, you're wasting your time... (but of course, if it pleases you, keep on...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6793 - May 30, 2019, 12:42 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on May 30, 2019, 09:05 AM

    Numismatics is also a very important tool that almost everyone has discarded or know nothing about,


    If you say this because everyone do not say like you that it is Muhammad b. Hannafiya in the 685 Bishapur coin...

    Quote
    though I see more and more people mentioning it and, surprisingly, among people who are not historians by trade.

    Numismatics shows especially that the 9th c. narrative about the Arabs who take over East and West are not at all "Muslims" as it describes them...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6794 - May 30, 2019, 12:59 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    but if you start to count degrees about graves facing Petra


    Ok, the word Petra triggered you. I should have avoided it. Fact is that these graves are 90 dg away from Jerusalem, perpendicular 30 dg away from Mecca, just as the ancient Qibla.

    The focus doesnt need to be Petra, but the direction is (probably) coincidental towards Petra.
    It's a fact that the direction is NOT Mecca or Jerusalem.

    Qastal is again located where it is impossible to miss Mecca in this way. Instead of pointing S-E, the qibla points S-W.

    I think you are right . If Petra was the focus, we would have known. But on the other hand, you seem to be a believer. You are trying to fit the narrative to a location as if it did happen.

    Why can't the scenario be: No Mo, no zamam, no Kaba. The whole story is the product of the imagination of 8-9 C storytellers. But in 7th C, for some reason, the Umayyads felt the need to focus their Qibla at 190 dg in Qastal.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6795 - May 30, 2019, 02:19 PM
    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes.


    Quote
    Ok, the word Petra triggered you. I should have avoided it. Fact is that these graves are 90 dg away from Jerusalem, perpendicular 30 dg away from Mecca, just as the ancient Qibla.


    They faces what exactly?

    Quote
    It's a fact that the direction is NOT Mecca or Jerusalem.


    It is the interesting point. Then they faces what? North?
    Quote
    I think you are right . If Petra was the focus, we would have known.


    Of course I'm right. Gibson is an amateur, nothing else. He does not know of what he talking about (there's time when things have to be said I think...)

    Quote
    But on the other hand, you seem to be a believer.

     

    Hahaha!

    Quote
    You are trying to fit the narrative to a location as if it did happen.


    I test the Gibson' thesis. It is Gibson who is a believer Wink not me (haha!)

    Quote
    But in 7th C, for some reason, the Umayyads felt the need to focus their Qibla at 190 dg in Qastal.


    Why?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6796 - May 30, 2019, 03:17 PM
    Altara,


    I was not defending Gibson's thesis. Not at all. I was using his material to bring in the archeological evidence that can contribute to the correct narrative.

    You seem to have developed your own narrative. My question is have you figured out a way to fit  the archeology and in this case the non-Mecca non-Jerusalem direction of burial and qibla?

    From other early Qibla's I thought different biblical setting might be in play:
    • for Aila Mount Sinai
      for Jerash Mount Nebo

    But I am already stuck with Qastal. Neither will do.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6797 - May 30, 2019, 04:31 PM
    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes.

    Quote
    You seem to have developed your own narrative. My question is have you figured out a way to fit  the archaeology and in this case the non-Mecca non-Jerusalem direction of burial and qibla?


    Of course. I consider that this fit perfectly well what I thought. I'm not (at all) surprised.

    Quote
    From other early Qibla's I thought different biblical setting might be in play:

        for Aila Mount Sinai
        for Jerash Mount Nebo


    Possible. But (for me...) it wouldn't do anything for the identification of  the Quranic texts author(s).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6798 - May 30, 2019, 05:56 PM
    Quote
    it wouldn't do anything for the identification of  the Quranic texts author(s).


    Agree. There doesnt need to be a link btw where the text was written  (early 600's) and the developing ideology (post 650).

    These different Qiblas are just proof of Mecca/Zamzam/Kabba being later constructions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6799 - May 30, 2019, 08:38 PM
    Quote
    695/700.


    ??
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6800 - May 30, 2019, 11:09 PM
     Mecca/Zamzam/Kabba being later constructions. (yawn...) Zem zem surely... Kaba 685/90
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6801 - May 31, 2019, 12:18 AM
    Quote from: Altara on May 30, 2019, 12:24 PM
    Sorry guys... but if you start to count degrees about graves facing Petra ... One knows that it was a  Late Antique Christian city  where if someone would have talking  to God that would have left necessarily traces one way or another. All graduated history students knows that.
    Gibson is incapable to respond to this simple and logical objection.

    Stop counting degrees guys, you're wasting your time... (but of course, if it pleases you, keep on...)



    You are right and wrong. Wrong because we don't know much about the history of Petra for example.
    However, what does interest me here, and I don't believe the Petra theory, is more the fact that non muslim sources do mention arab shrine(s) in the Sinai desert  ; having tombs not oriented towards sunrise nor towards Jerusalem but in a specific direction could reinforce the existence of those shrines especially if this tie up with mosks qibla orientations.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6802 - May 31, 2019, 12:34 AM
    Quote from: Altara on May 30, 2019, 12:42 PM
    If you say this because everyone do not say like you that it is Muhammad b. Hannafiya in the 685 Bishapur coin...


    My theory is a little more complicated than that but well it is not the issue here.

    What I am saying is just what I noticed ; 2 examples :

    -  Why Walker's catalog is still the reference when one want to study early islam numismatic , this work date from the 1940's ?
    - why has no one elaborated on the fact numismatic show that Abd el Malik was partisan of the caliph Az Zubayr ? Only one person mention it and he is not an historian by trade.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6803 - May 31, 2019, 12:45 AM
    Quote
    why has no one elaborated on the fact numismatic show that Abd el Malik was partisan of the caliph Az Zubayr ?


    Elaborate...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6804 - May 31, 2019, 01:30 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on May 31, 2019, 12:18 AM
    You are right and wrong. Wrong because we don't know much about the history of Petra for example.


    One knows enough to put aside Gibson theory.

    Quote
    However, what does interest me here, and I don't believe the Petra theory, is more the fact that non muslim sources do mention arab shrine(s) in the Sinai desert  ; having tombs not oriented towards sunrise nor towards Jerusalem but in a specific direction could reinforce the existence of those shrines especially if this tie up with mosks qibla orientations

    .

    Not oriented towards sunrise nor towards Jerusalem. Yes, they were not Jews (necessarily)  nor following Christians rules.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6805 - May 31, 2019, 02:12 AM
    https://www.academia.edu/39317050/When_did_Ibn_Is%E1%B8%A5%C4%81q_compose_his_magh%C4%81z%C4%AB_forthcoming_?email_work_card=thumbnail-desktop
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6806 - May 31, 2019, 04:35 AM
    Marc,

    Can you expand on the numismatics please. I read Popp and got an idea about the controversy but I need help understanding!

    Altara,

    The Qastal Qibla (190 dg) is built about the same time of dome of Rock/ Chain. Do you remember our discussion of orientation of 170 dg?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6807 - May 31, 2019, 09:04 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on May 31, 2019, 02:12 AM
    When did Ibn Isḥāq compose his maghāzī?    by  Michael Lecker

    hmm   that is a good one..


    Michael Lecker  wrote wonderful stories on early Islam...  in fact  some of them could be made in to movies  for children on "the beginning of Islam.. "

     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6808 - May 31, 2019, 09:19 AM
    And much of what is written here can be turned into science fiction stories for children.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6809 - May 31, 2019, 10:50 AM
    Quote from: Altara on May 31, 2019, 12:45 AM
    Elaborate...


    This is just one example to show that there is a large pool of data untapped by scholars from different fields. It is interesting to see that your friend Medhi Shaddel partnered with Michael Bates and, though he is what you would call a believer, I am interested to see some of his future works not so much fpr what he has to say but for the data they will be reviewing.
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