Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Iran uprising - is the en...
by zeca
Today at 12:13 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 11:38 PM

New PM incoming
by zeca
Yesterday at 09:14 PM

Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 08:15 PM

Excellence and uniqueness
by akay
November 20, 2019, 09:45 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
November 19, 2019, 03:44 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
November 19, 2019, 03:25 PM

Kashmir endgame
November 19, 2019, 01:00 PM

Anti-imperialism and the ...
by zeca
November 17, 2019, 02:40 PM

'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
by zeca
November 16, 2019, 11:39 PM

Painted pious ladies
November 16, 2019, 09:03 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 16, 2019, 06:22 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 389140 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 223 224 225226 227 ... 279 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6720 - May 20, 2019, 09:49 PM

    well  mundi wants to know about Jones... Alan Jones  ...   and no one is answering him...
    Quote
    .......... How would respond to Alan Jones,............ that  wa-idh signifies past continuous, i.e. “And [remember] when Abraham raised the foundations of the bayt.”?

    .........Jones reads with the Mecca/Kaba/ Zem zem frame ....................

    Jones can say what he wants...................
    Jones et al. are unable to answer that question.........
    I am.

    As one knows that nothing validate (at that time) the frame Mecca/Muhammad/Kaba.
    I consider that the response is : the 637 Arabs arriving in Jerusalem got Quranic texts with them, and  felt compelled to build on a place where the only bayt known in Orient to be rebuild is at Jerusalem and nowhere else. They felt compelled to build because of this verse staging and legitimate them as son of Ishmael, therefore sons of Abraham via Hagar to re build on the only known place of Abraham, that is Jerusalem where the Temple had been destroyed.
     
    These  637 Arabs do not come from the peninsula ; this one is totally barren and void (except Yemen, and the East Coast under Iraq.), with some few oases unable to gather, feed, manage armies.
    Quote
    Yet  it is what we are told by the narrative which is necessarily forced to say it because the Prophet had to be very far from Biblical stuff to avoid to be accused of having been informed. The far place is coherent.


    Hey guys, any reference for Jones? Seem to have missed that.


    Hi  mundi  ..  how are you doing?

      Prof Alan Jones is a Emeritus Professor of Classical Arabic at Oxford University,  He is famous for his book
    well  click the picture and download PDF file of that book.. And and read it if you want to go to sleep ., 

    Anyways  .. Altara must know that Prof. Jones was a Linguistic expert  and He was  NOT HISTORIAN OF ISLAM...., So his work tells very little about early history of Islam..  But highlighting words from Altara post are thought provoking  ..

    and Hello Altara  on these words ".....These  637 Arabs do not come from the peninsula..." ........I wonder whether you could elaborate a bit  ..  I guess you are talking about Siege of Jerusalem in the year 636–637  by So-called Arabs.. So-called Rashidun Caliphate. ...

    so what is your opinion on that?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6721 - May 20, 2019, 11:02 PM

    Iraq is your assumption, unless I misunderstood what you said many times.

    However, one clue that highlight this assumption is the fact that many events of early Islam do happen in Iraq with people living there ;

    One knows more about what happended in the West as war was short; after Yarmuk, all is settled.

    Quote
    of course, islamic tradition explain it away by saying these are people who moved from Mecca/Medina to Iraq ; one is not forced to believe that but to simply think that those people were from that region.


    Especially that one have no source to validate Mecca/Medina.

    Quote
    Then, this is the starting point that lead to other items backing up this assumption. But is it the only assumption about their origins ? I think it is more complicated than that.


    Then you have to elaborate it. Grounded.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6722 - May 21, 2019, 09:20 AM

    Yeez,

    Thank you for taking care of me and answering my questions  thnkyu

    Here an interesting podcast with Ahmad al -Jallad: https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/05/19/browncast-episode-37-arabian-linguistics-pre-islamic-arabia/

    The nabatean link of Arabic and Quranic geography is overwhelming. But Jallad still refers to the hijaz as place of origing of the Quranic arabic. It hinges on ONE feature, the demonstrative pronoun hadha of the Quran is not found in the Nabatean Arabic but apparently it is found in Hijazi dialects. That seem to be the final argument (or straw?)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6723 - May 21, 2019, 02:49 PM

    I do not know what is "Hijazi " dialects. "Hijaz" is a semantical construction of the narrative relative to Mecca/Kaba; it does not exists before Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6724 - May 21, 2019, 06:07 PM

    *******************************************************************************************


    Dilmun and its neighbors in the 10th century BCE




    Nabataean trade routes in Pre-Islamic Arabia


    Expansion of the caliphate, 622–750 CE.
       Prophet Muhammad, 622–632
       Rashidun Caliphate, 632–661
      brownish yellow  Umayyad Caliphate, 661–750

    All  those maps are from wiki link 

    **************************************************************************************

    Languages of Pre-Islamic Arabia     by Afat  Qiamat

    Reflections on the linguistic map of  pre-Islamic Arabia by M. C. A. MACDONALD
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6725 - May 21, 2019, 07:12 PM

    Nabataean trade routes in Pre-Islamic Arabia are wrong. "Mecca" and  "Hijaz" are never mentionned.(yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6726 - May 21, 2019, 07:38 PM

    Quote
    I do not know what is "Hijazi " dialects.


    I dont know if Al-Jallad knows or supposes he knows. Has he found evidence that PRE-7th C the right demonstrative pronoun was used? Or does he see it in later material which might have been influenced by Quranic material.
  • Re: Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6727 - May 21, 2019, 08:56 PM

    Hey guys, any reference for Jones? Seem to have missed that.


    It was through a friend of mine. He did not discuss Gallez but Quranic grammar.
  • Re: Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6728 - May 21, 2019, 08:59 PM

    Except that Gallez is totally lost here because that poem relate to the afternath of the capture of Jérusalem in 614 by persan forces backed up by jewish troops. The Messiah Nehemiah ben Hushiel was killed when Christians revolted and while he was planning the rebuilding of the temple.


    Bonnet-Eymard and Gallez are well-aware of these dates. They literally specify the year 614. It is part of their thesis. I do not know how this shows their confusion. Apologies if I misunderstood or misrepresented you.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6729 - May 21, 2019, 09:00 PM

    https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1130924652006641664?s=20
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6730 - May 21, 2019, 09:00 PM

    On Iraq, read Wansbrough and Hawting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6731 - May 21, 2019, 11:41 PM

    Bonnet-Eymard and Gallez are well-aware of these dates. They literally specify the year 614. It is part of their thesis. I do not know how this shows their confusion. Apologies if I misunderstood or misrepresented you.


    On pages 467/468 of Le Messie et son Prophète Volume 2, Gallez mention the poem from Elazar Qilir and doesn't mention any date for this text but uses this text in a paragraph that does speak of events after the capture of Jerusalem by arab troops. The reader is then led to think that the War Messie is Muhammad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6732 - May 22, 2019, 01:10 AM


    northwest Ḥigāz?  Where is that?

     bly dkyr sly br ʾwsw bṭb w slm mn qdm mry ʿlmʾ
    ‘Yea, may Solay son of Awso be remembered well and be secure before the Lord of the World’. The term mry ʿlmʾ 'Lord of the World' must have been a theonym used to refer to the monotheistic God.


    Biblical atmosphere why not. "Jewish"? What is specific Jewish? Nothing I'm afraid...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6733 - May 22, 2019, 01:20 AM

    Except that Gallez is totally lost here


    His ideology drive him. He will write anything to fit it with sources which have nothing to see to what he wants demonstrates. It's too bad...

    Quote
    because that poem relate to the afternath of the capture of Jérusalem in 614 by persan forces backed up by jewish troops. The Messiah Nehemiah ben Hushiel was killed when Christians revolted and while he was planning the rebuilding of the temple.


    The "Messiah Nehemiah" was a Messiah for himself and never was recognized as such by anyone (to my knowledge...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6734 - May 22, 2019, 08:45 AM

    At least he was as such for the person who wrote the poem about him.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6735 - May 22, 2019, 10:36 AM

    Bar Kokhba was also a Messiah... anybody can be one when it deals to free Israel.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6736 - May 22, 2019, 03:04 PM

    Bar Kokhba was also a Messiah... anybody can be one when it deals to free Israel.

     Cheesy Cheesy   that is a good one Altara... that sounds very similar to your other song...  let me put together to make a Quran sonnet .Quran surah..

    Mecca Medina  Zam Zam..
    Muhammad  Mecca  Zam Zam..
    Medina Muhammad    Zam Zam..
    Messiah Nehemia Messiah
      Messiah Bar Messiah
     Messiah  Kokhba  Messiah
    anyone can be Messiah
    anyone can be Muhammad
    Muhammad  Mecca  Zam Zam..
    Medina Muhammad    Zam Zam.

    for now that sounds good

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6737 - May 22, 2019, 04:18 PM

     Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6738 - May 22, 2019, 04:19 PM

    Bar Kokhba was also a Messiah... anybody can be one when it deals to free Israel. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6739 - May 22, 2019, 04:26 PM

    On pages 467/468 of Le Messie et son Prophète Volume 2, Gallez mention the poem from Elazar Qilir and doesn't mention any date for this text but uses this text in a paragraph that does speak of events after the capture of Jerusalem by arab troops. The reader is then led to think that the War Messie is Muhammad.


    Umar is viewed more or less ambiguously as the Messiah, was called the Redeemer...Ali is also the Messiah, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6740 - May 24, 2019, 11:24 AM

    Umar is viewed more or less ambiguously as the Messiah, was called the Redeemer...Ali is also the Messiah, etc.

    'Dear Altara .,  just clarify this to me

    So you consider  Umar ibn Al-Khattab  .... The Umer, Son of Al-Khattab"..........born in  584 CE – dead on 3 November 644 CE), .. the second   Rashidun Calipha  who became Caliph on 23 August 634. who succeeded   that Abdallah bin Abi Quhafah ( 573 CE – 23 August 634 CE), Aka  Abu Bakr  Caliph from 632–634    WAS REAL PERSON IN EARLY ISLAM?  Real Caliph of early Islam?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6741 - May 24, 2019, 06:41 PM

    For me as an amateur in this topic, listening to Tom Holland talking with Secular Jihadists, was interesting, though I have heard much of his views before.
       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2k7QhaR7Zs&t=82s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6742 - May 24, 2019, 09:17 PM

    'Dear Altara .,  just clarify this to me

    So you consider  Umar ibn Al-Khattab  .... The Umer, Son of Al-Khattab"..........born in  584 CE – dead on 3 November 644 CE), .. the second   Rashidun Calipha  who became Caliph on 23 August 634. who succeeded   that Abdallah bin Abi Quhafah ( 573 CE – 23 August 634 CE), Aka  Abu Bakr  Caliph from 632–634    WAS REAL PERSON IN EARLY ISLAM?  Real Caliph of early Islam?


    Umar is viewed more or less ambiguously as the Messiah, was called the Redeemer (Al Faruk)...Ali is also the Messiah, etc. by  (some) sunni narratives or shii about Ali.
    I'm nor sunni or shii.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6743 - May 25, 2019, 12:40 AM

    For me as an amateur in this topic, listening to Tom Holland talking with Secular Jihadists, was interesting, though I have heard much of his views before.
       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2k7QhaR7Zs&t=82s

     
    One cannot study Early Islam in two or three years. But Holland succeed to make understand  to a mainstream public that there is a big problem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6744 - May 25, 2019, 06:20 AM

    Thanks for your reply, Altara. One thing that I like with Tom Holland, is that he speaks so openly. Many of the academics I follow seem to look to the left, look to the right, look to the left again, then they might say something that can be interpreted in different ways. The way some academics speak about Islam, you can wonder if they are apologists or whatever. Its a kind of strange field. As Robert Hoyland wrote: among the academics, there many left-leaning liberals that don't want to insult Muslims. I am glad that Tom Holland dared to make that documentary and crossed the barrier, though he got many death threats.
    Here in my country, I have challenged the academics several times, but almost nothing happens. Some historians said that in Denmark and Norway it has not been so rapid changes since the bronze- or iron age. In spite of that, most religion sociologists decide not to take part in the public discussion. They leave that to the amateurs, fundamentalists and Islam haters. That is kind of sad.
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6745 - May 25, 2019, 06:33 AM

    Umar is viewed more or less ambiguously as the Messiah, was called the Redeemer (Al Faruk)...Ali is also the Messiah, etc. by  (some) sunni narratives or shii about Ali.
    I'm not sure  sunni or shii.

    well one can give any number of name tags by their followers but my question was slightly different  ..  What I am looking for is "Authenticity of Rashidun Caliphate  from NON-ISLAMIC SOURCES"

    In other words I an looking for historians of middle east that explored Islam between the year 632  to 661 .. roughly 30 year history
    Quote
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.msg639778#msg639778

    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.   Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.


    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6746 - May 25, 2019, 12:04 PM

    Thanks for your reply, Altara. One thing that I like with Tom Holland, is that he speaks so openly.


    He is not involved in any University. This explains what you say :
    Many of the academics I follow seem to look to the left, look to the right, look to the left again, then they might say something that can be interpreted in different ways. The way some academics speak about Islam, you can wonder if they are apologists or whatever. Its a kind of strange field.

    Quote
    As Robert Hoyland wrote: among the academics, there many left-leaning liberals that don't want to insult Muslims.

     
    It is not so simple as he says. More I was involved  in the field more I have noted (like you) that there is something strange in the behaviour of many scholars. His explication is right especially for the young scholars, but is not sufficient.
    Many academic scholars tend to hide what they really think and understood about the origin of Islam but it has nothing to do with Hoyland's explication . I tend to think that they hide because they fear (for their career) to be marginalized, etc.
    When I read this statement of Reynolds (2016) (that I consider a great scholar) for example :Finally, I might add that I am interested in philology more than history. I am not particularly interested in proposing any new or revisionist context for the Qurʾān’s origins. Instead I am interested in understanding and appreciating the Qurʾānic text and its message.

    I'm surprised... I think one cannot know and understand a discourse, whatever it is, without knowing its context of production. Appreciating yes, understanding, surely not.It's all the more curious for him because he had poses good questions about the Quran regarding what says the narrative about it which poses problem.


    Quote
    I am glad that Tom Holland dared to make that documentary and crossed the barrier, though he got many death threats.


    Yes. But you have remarked that almost none academics cites Holland. He does not exist.

    Quote
    Here in my country, I have challenged the academics several times, but almost nothing happens.Some historians said that in Denmark and Norway it has not been so rapid changes since the bronze- or iron age. In spite of that, most religion sociologists decide not to take part in the public discussion. They leave that to the amateurs, fundamentalists and Islam haters. That is kind of sad.


    When you know that a great scholar (I won't say who...)  has been put aside from a high position in Paris you understand many things...

     
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6747 - May 25, 2019, 12:08 PM

    well one can give any number of name tags by their followers but my question was slightly different  ..  What I am looking for is "Authenticity of Rashidun Caliphate  from NON-ISLAMIC SOURCES"

    In other words I an looking for historians of middle east that explored Islam between the year 632  to 661 .. roughly 30 year history
    with best
    yeezevee

     NON-ISLAMIC SOURCES never spoke of a Rashidun Caliphate, it is an invention of 9th c. narrative as internal discourse.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6748 - May 25, 2019, 03:08 PM

    NON-ISLAMIC SOURCES never spoke of a Rashidun Caliphate, it is an invention of 9th c. narrative as internal discourse. 


    I understand and in fact i say   All  Early Islamic History (with the exception of Some parts of Quran)  comes from 9th century  narratives .....   but what bothers me is .,   why these present Academics who  wrote publication on history of Islam  does not even bother to look   the history of Islam from the year 632( the year prophet of Islam died  because of eating poisoned lamb leg from an old Jewish lady)  to the year 799....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr4TONP99jU

    well i linked  that video some 100 times on different boards  ..   if you brainwash kids from that age to the age of 20 or so.. they will turn in to this..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrqqRsb-oec

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6749 - May 26, 2019, 01:29 AM

    yawn... screw the secular jihadists. as to tom holland, well, i guess he is okay.
  • Previous page 1 ... 223 224 225226 227 ... 279 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »