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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6690 - May 16, 2019, 02:55 PM



    that is indeed a good book to read.  So  where are other chapters of that  dr.  Michael   Macdonald   book  dear mundi??

    Literacy and Identity in Pre-Islamic Arabia (Variorum Collected Studies)
    by M.C.A. Macdonald  | Jan 28, 2009  ..
    $149.00   to  $215.00

    So  did you read that book mundi? and which one would you like buy  for me to read??  .. 149$ one ??  215$??  

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6691 - May 16, 2019, 03:16 PM

    Elaborate...

    dear Altara .. I am completely off from any publication on the history., history of faiths or historical facts of history..   I make my bread and butter working in  field of pure applied sciences at the interface of Biology/chemistry/Physics and medicine ..

    So my details are quite irrelevant., In fact  I started reading about the publication from Academics  in the field of History of religions from this folder itself because of that  "zeca" in this forum  who started this folder and "The cat" at faith freedom international forum.. you can also  read all of my posts in that forum.,  I stopped writing there because some people didn't like  me  writing posts  about  nonsense nuisance  in other faiths such as hindusim, christianity and judaism ..

     so there you go..and let me watch this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PktUzdnBqWI

    and on the way  read another chapter of  Mcdonald's book  that mundi linked . Reflections on the linguistic map of pre-Islamic Arabia

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6692 - May 16, 2019, 05:46 PM

    Yeez,

    Glad you like the book, I only read the chapter I linked, didnt buy the book of course... Sad for these wonderful authors that dont get their just reward.

    The article you linked is from 2000. I think lots has changed in the field since then. Let me know if it is worth it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6693 - May 16, 2019, 09:31 PM

    Yeez,

    Glad you like the book, I only read the chapter I linked, didnt buy the book of course... Sad for these wonderful authors that dont get their just reward.



    well  that is not only true in history but often true in other fields including sciences dear mundi ., but that is OK., it is life .. you just contribute and enjoy the field grow..

    well watch Michael Macdonald

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLCuF1ULXuM

    https://oxford.academia.edu/MichaelMacdonald

    Identity, script, and the uses of writing in pre-Islamic Arabia

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2-pVJN9G7s

    Conférence de Michael MacDonald (University of Oxford)  Identity, script, and the uses of writing in pre-Islamic Arabia.,   Dans le cadre des Oriental Lecture Series 2016 .,  Le 23 février 2016



    and I don't know how to read this Ann Thorac Med. 2011 Oct-Dec; 6(4): 187–192 .

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6694 - May 17, 2019, 03:57 PM

    On Ann Thorac's ridiculous article:

    Quote
    Yawning
    Yawning is an unacceptable behavior for Muslims, especially in public places. If yawning occurs, the yawner is instructed to cover his mouth with his hand. The Prophet said, “Yawning is from Satan. If you are about to yawn, you should try to stop it as much as possible. If you yawn, Satan will laugh” [SB 3115].


    Haha! This is for Altara! Satan is there.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6695 - May 17, 2019, 04:15 PM

    Quote
    En effet s’il avait été question, grammaticalement parlant, d’utiliser les lunaisons pour le pèlerinage, l’expression aurait pu être, par exemple : hiyya mawâqit lilnâs li-ma‘rifati ayyâm al-hajj. Ici la phrase doit au contraire être envisagée comme coupée, la mention du pèlerinage introduisant une autre unité sémantique : Wa-l-hajj (au sujet du pèlerinage) confortée par sa reprise en parallèle de wa-l-barr (la manière correcte de l’accomplir ne consiste pas à entrer dans les temples par derrière (…).

    Il apparaît alors de façon claire que la précision qui suit à propos de l’entrée dans les temples, lieux d’accomplissement des pèlerinages, est placée là pour donner l’indication attendue relativement au calcul des temps de ces mêmes pèlerinages, la position des portes en apportant la clé. Il suffit dans ce cas de se reporter à l’orientation des temples ou « maisons sacrées », correspondant au terme bayt (pl. buyût) dans le Coran, comme l’illustre l’expression « bayt al-haram » pour désigner le maqâm d’Abraham (14, 37) à la Mekke, matérialisé par la Ka‘ba. Or, comme chacun le sait, la porte d’entrée de ce monument se situe sur sa face est, du côté du soleil levant. Le deuxième exemple de maison divine n’est autre, dans le Coran, que le temple construit par David et Salomon à Jérusalem.

    Selon la Bible elle-même, il n’y a aucune ambiguïté possible à ce sujet, sachant qu'en hébreu “droite” signifie toujours sud et “gauche” nord et que les Chroniques mentionnent: “quant à la Mer de bronze, il l'avait placée à distance du côté droit (sud-est), donc du côté de Jakin”. En conséquence, sa porte était donc à l’Est, alors que son arrière donnait sur l’Ouest, la direction où apparaît la lune. On peut ajouter à cela la vision d’Ezékiel du temple de Salomon : (Ez. 7, 1) « Et voici que de l’eau sortait de dessous le seuil du temple vers l’Orient, car le temple était tourné vers l’Orient ».

    Ajoutons que même les temples romains anciens, ainsi que les temples égyptiens étaient tous, de même, orientés vers l’Est, afin que le soleil puisse toujours toucher en premier lieu l’autel ou la statue du Dieu.

    Cette situation justifie le pluriel de généralité (buyût) utilisé par le Coran : l’entrée des maisons (divines) (c'est-à-dire les temples, tous les lieux de culte) se fait par la porte de devant, c’est-à-dire celle qui fait face au soleil levant. Le verset (2, 189) acquiert alors toute sa dimension, la lecture relative à l’interdiction d’entrer par derrière dans « les maisons » en général - y compris les habitations privées-, qui a été le plus souvent adoptée, ne pouvant être retenue, outre le fait qu’elle ne revêt aucune signification religieuse particulière, en raison de la règle de non synonymie, maintes fois vérifiée à présent, qui exclut que bayt (la maison sacrée) puisse être considéré comme synonyme de dâr (la maison individuelle).

    Le Coran manifeste donc explicitement ici son choix de calendrier religieux commun à tous les monothéistes : il s’agit du calendrier correspondant à la direction de la porte d’entrée de tous les Temples, un calendrier lié au soleil en fonction duquel doivent être réglés les pèlerinages, visites que l’on accomplit à ces maisons divines, et qui doivent de ce fait respecter le temps de Dieu et non pas le temps calculé par les hommes. Si l’on rapproche ce passage de ceux de la sourate 9, il apparaît qu’un seul calendrier correspond à cette description : le calendrier dit « solaire parfait » du Livre des Jubilés, qui est précisément le seuil herméneutique auquel le Coran renvoie son lecteur à plusieurs reprises. Il consiste en un comput de trois-cent-soixante-quatre jours, selon lequel les dates de toutes les fêtes sont fixes.

    En regroupant les versets qui ont trait au calendrier sacré dans le Coran, on trouve en effet les indications suivantes : il s’agit d’un calendrier en relation avec le soleil (en référence à l’orientation des portes d’entrée des temples), qui comporte douze mois, et conçu de telle manière que les mois sacrés reviennent toujours à la même date et le même jour. C’est donc bien l’adoption de ce calendrier spécifique qu’il prône pour l’établissement des dates de pèlerinage au verset (2, 189).

    La finesse et la précision de l’expression coranique sont ici remarquables, en particulier pour ce qui concerne l’image des portes, qui revêt ici un double sens. Le premier est celui de la porte des temples, comme on vient de le voir. Le second renvoie au Livre I d’Hénoch selon lequel les luminaires sont représentés comme se levant à des « portes », les portes du ciel (voir le mot en grec) (LXXII, 2) : « Voici la première loi des luminaires, (celle qui concerne) le luminaire soleil. Son lever est aux portes du ciel du côté de l’Orient et son coucher aux portes occidentales du ciel » Toujours selon le Livre d’Hénoch, l’«avant » du ciel est l’Est, conformément à la double acception du terme araméen sous-jacent, l’arrière est l’Ouest, de même la droite est le sud et la gauche le nord » tout comme dans le cas du temple de Jérusalem. C’est ainsi que les portes d’entrée principales de l’ensemble des temples correspondent et se superposent, de par leur orientation, à la porte d’entrée du soleil dans le ciel.

    Le sens profond de la métaphore coranique de l’entrée des temples vise, de plus, à souligner qu’il ne s’agit pas là d’un véritable calendrier solaire, c’est pourquoi nous n’avons nulle part employé cette expression précise, mais d’un calendrier « apparenté au modèle solaire ». Le soleil n’est en effet pas la mesure réelle de ce calendrier idéal, qui ne peut dépendre d’aucun être participant à l’univers de l’immanence. Il est seulement, comme le souligne le Coran, sa porte d’entrée, son seuil introductif, le comptage du temps de Dieu étant au-delà de toute atteinte du créé. Participant directement du monde divin des nombres parfaits, il ne peut donc être le résultat d’aucun calcul humain, ni dépendre de la révolution d’aucun astre. Cette situation correspond au fait que, lorsque le pèlerin entre dans la maison de Dieu, il quitte le monde créaturel et le temps qui le régit pour pénétrer directement dans le temps divin et change ainsi, dès ce bas monde, à proprement parler, de dimension.

    Voici comment se présente ce calendrier sacré:


    Great insights by Gobillot. Had no idea that the paper would address this issue, which is a topic of great interst for me. This seems to vindicate Bonnet-Eymard and Gallez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6696 - May 17, 2019, 04:53 PM

    Mahgraye,

    I am impressed! Al though you don't read French you went through the whole article and found the interesting parts. Congrats, I will start rereading Gobillot.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6697 - May 17, 2019, 05:20 PM

    Thanks, dear Mundi. I, however, did not read the entire article, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6698 - May 17, 2019, 05:29 PM

    Can someone here please copy-and-paste the following pages from Gallez's book: Le messie et son prophète. Aux origines de l’Islam (2 vols; Versailles: Éditions de Paris, 2005), 1:467–76. He argues that the House if the Jerusalem Temple
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6699 - May 17, 2019, 05:52 PM

    On Ann Thorac's ridiculous article:

    Haha! This is for Altara! Satan is there.




    Yawn ...  Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6700 - May 17, 2019, 06:00 PM

    He argues that the House if the Jerusalem Temple


    ?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6701 - May 17, 2019, 07:03 PM

    Quote
    He argues that the House if the Jerusalem Temple


    He identifies the House as the Jerusalem Temple; outlining his reasons for that identification.*
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6702 - May 18, 2019, 12:41 AM

    Yes. The sources are the same as those one have discussed earlier with Marc.
    In order his references are for the House as the Jerusalem Temple;
    1) Hoyland : Seeing... p.528-29
    2) Sebeos
    3) a Jewish poem from Elazar Qilir who invoke a war Messiah who would have start rebuild the Temple and would have been murdered.
    4) John Moschus (Hoyland p.63)
    5) Salman b.Yeruhim. (Hoyland p.127)
    6) Adoman  (Hoyland p.221)
    Then he make the exegese of  Q 2,127. indicating that yarfa'u is in a future tense meaning "will re raise" ; min (coming from) something he considers to be al bayt ruins al qawa'id etc.
    For him, it is clear that Q 2,127 which invokes the re raise of the "House"  with the help of the sons of Abraham and Ismael speaks about the project to rebuild the Temple on the Jerusalem esplanade (p.475).
    The  Gallez' judeo nazareans would have start the building before the arrival of Umar. He considers then that the judeo nazarean project has one way or another worked, but was stopped by the desire of "independence" of the Arabs.
    Suffice to replace his "judeo nazarean " by the Jews of Sebeos it is more or less the same story. Gallez adding that the "judeo nazarean" were in fact the Quranic "nasara".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6703 - May 19, 2019, 12:08 AM

    https://www.deepl.com/translator is your friend. (yawn...)

    The ethics of Ikhwān al-Ṣafā' in his relation to the Koran

    Geneviève Gobillot, Université de Lyon.

    https://www.academia.edu/39172966/L%C3%A9thique_des_Ikhw%C3%A2n_al-Saf%C3%A2
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6704 - May 19, 2019, 05:38 AM

    https://www.deepl.com/translator is your friend. (yawn...)

    The ethics of Ikhwān al-Ṣafā' in his relation to the Koran

    Geneviève Gobillot, Université de Lyon.

    https://www.academia.edu/39172966/L%C3%A9thique_des_Ikhw%C3%A2n_al-Saf%C3%A2

     whom are you yawning at now dear Altara?

     Are you yawning at  deepl.com translator ?
    or  Are you yawning at  Université de Lyon
    or  or..........   are you   yawning at  prof.  Geneviève Gobillot   for coupling behavior of foolish criminal moronic  Muslims like "Ikhwan"  or behavior of Muslim brotherhood or behavior of SAUDS OF SAND LAND    with Quran verses? 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6705 - May 19, 2019, 02:31 PM

    Quote
    indicating that yarfa'u is in a future tense meaning "will re raise" ; min (coming from) something he considers to be al bayt ruins al qawa'id etc.


    do you agree with Gallez that the verb is in the future tense and not referring back to an event that has already happened?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6706 - May 19, 2019, 03:29 PM

    I agree with him that it could be understood  as a possibility to be done "again" by a reader of 630-40 in a place where the only bayt known in Orient to be rebuild is at Jerusalem and nowhere else. Therefore, in the future of what is described at first glance as being past in the verse, as Abraham and Ishmael, as such, are not living any more.
    Therefore that the 637 Arabs arriving in Jerusalem felt compelled to build because of this verse staging and legitimate them as son of Ishmael, therefore sons of Abraham via Hagar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6707 - May 19, 2019, 03:33 PM

    Thanks - I believe I understood. How would respond to Alan Jones, that  wa-idh signifies past continuous, i.e. “And [remember] when Abraham raised the foundations of the bayt.”?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6708 - May 19, 2019, 08:29 PM

    I am doubtful. Jones reads with the Mecca/Kaba/ Zem zem frame . He is necessarily drove by this and therefore get the traditional meaning.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6709 - May 19, 2019, 08:30 PM

    Jones gives other examples in support of his assertion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6710 - May 20, 2019, 12:20 AM

    Jones can say what he wants.He thinks historical the narrative. Then he thinks that the building of a bayt in Jerusalem has nothing to do with Q, 127 which is the belief that it deals with Kaba very known by the 637 Arabs. But then why they build something whereas they have the Kaba?
    Jones et al. are unable to answer that question.
    I am.
    As one knows that nothing validate (at that time) the frame Mecca/Muhammad/Kaba.
    I consider that the response is : the 637 Arabs arriving in Jerusalem got Quranic texts with them, and  felt compelled to build on a place where the only bayt known in Orient to be rebuild is at Jerusalem and nowhere else. They felt compelled to build because of this verse staging and legitimate them as son of Ishmael, therefore sons of Abraham via Hagar to re build on the only known place of Abraham, that is Jerusalem where the Temple had been destroyed.
     
    These  637 Arabs do not come from the peninsula ; this one is totally barren and void (except Yemen, and the East Coast under Iraq.), with some few oases unable to gather, feed, manage armies. Yet  it is what we are told by the narrative which is necessarily forced to say it because the Prophet had to be very far from Biblical stuff to avoid to be accused of having been informed. The far place is coherent.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6711 - May 20, 2019, 09:39 AM

    Quote
    Jones


    Hey guys, any reference for Jones? Seem to have missed that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6712 - May 20, 2019, 09:41 AM

    Quote
    These  637 Arabs do not come from the peninsula


    Altara,

    where do they come from?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6713 - May 20, 2019, 09:58 AM

    Reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6714 - May 20, 2019, 11:11 AM


    3) a Jewish poem from Elazar Qilir who invoke a war Messiah who would have start rebuild the Temple and would have been murdered.



    Except that Gallez is totally lost here because that poem relate to the afternath of the capture of Jérusalem in 614 by persan forces backed up by jewish troops. The Messiah Nehemiah ben Hushiel was killed when Christians revolted and while he was planning the rebuilding of the temple.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6715 - May 20, 2019, 11:12 AM

    Altara,

    where do they come from?


    He will tell you Irak.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6716 - May 20, 2019, 11:25 AM

    Quote
    He will tell you Irak.


    Thank you Mark.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6717 - May 20, 2019, 12:52 PM

    He will tell you Irak.


    Why not. But why Iraq. I need a coherent, grounded, and logical explication.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6718 - May 20, 2019, 04:20 PM

    Iraq is your assumption, unless I misunderstood what you said many times.

    However, one clue that highlight this assumption is the fact that many events of early Islam do happen in Iraq with people living there ; of course, islamic tradition explain it away by saying these are people who moved from Mecca/Medina to Iraq ; one is not forced to believe that but to simply think that those people were from that region. Then, this is the starting point that lead to other items backing up this assumption. But is it the only assumption about their origins ? I think it is more complicated than that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6719 - May 20, 2019, 04:47 PM

    Do the authors of the Quran need to originate from the same area as the conquerors? I would think not...
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