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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6480 - April 24, 2019, 11:15 AM

    Quote
    Altara .. Hi Altara.. what happened ??  I read your response to me .. and I was reading my good friend Akay  and by the time I was trying to respond to you your response to me has been deleted.. Why?  there was NOTHING WRONG  in what you said along with few yawns 

     Cheesy
    Quote
    It is true it is NOT there in "RABBINICAL JUDAISM " or In Islam or in that Zoroastrianism


    Of course.

    Quote
    were there any Jewish sects that were practicing  some sort of Monasticism or Monastic way of life with in Jewish faith of that time .say between 1st century AD to 5th century??


    Nope.  One does not know Jewish sects with this feature. Because after 70, there is not  (known) Jewish sect that one might call them "sect"  apart Rabbanism. Qumran  is not "monastic" place ( in fact, nobody knows what is Qumran...). Is the movement of Jesus (born before 70) a Jewish sect? Yes it is. But what one calls Monasticism or Monastic way of life is a Christian (maybe influenced by contemporary Gnosticism) feature.
    Yet, Gnosticism is a Jewish before Jesus (I think...) invention which has developed traits that can be found in the monastic life developed by Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6481 - April 24, 2019, 03:46 PM

    Quote
    Yes, Karaism is an interesting thing. Somehow, it could be very tempting to see it in relation with the Quran. But it seems appears after the 7th c. I think Dye thought about it.


    I think the example of Karaism can be useful to show what kind of sects (secretive or not) could be formed in Late Antiquity. Out of what exactly originated Karaism, we can only guess. Just as we can only guess what the origins of proto-Islam were. But we do have an ealy text (Quran) and generals behaving in a novel way showing some people had the idea of merging Christian with Jewish material.

    Yeez, I think your question of Jewish monasticism is relevant. Apparently there was quite some reticence towards monasticism although there are records of desert preachers (eg St John the Baptist) that fit quite well in the tradition later on developed in Christianity.

    So we have both contrasting elements in the Quran: 1/ praising the monks  2/ Jewish style marriage promotion above all.

    A sign to indeed look at a sect that was formed by intellectuals coming from both traditions?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6482 - April 24, 2019, 11:51 PM

    Quote
    Out of what exactly originated , we can only guess


    Internal sectarian struggle : Karaism vs Rabbanism

    Quote
    there are records of desert preachers (eg St John the Baptist) that fit quite well in the tradition later on developed in Christianity.


    No need of John. Jesus is sufficient.
    Quote
    A sign to indeed look at a sect that was formed by intellectuals coming from both traditions?


    https://www.academia.edu/38143375/Jewish_Christianity_the_Qur_%C4%81n_and_Early_Islam_Some_Methodological_Caveats  (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6483 - April 25, 2019, 02:30 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Internal sectarian struggle : Karaism vs Rabbanism


    Why Karaism? It is only attested 8 C. Could be another struggle that might not be documenten (or documenten by Quran...)

    Dye hasnt uploaded his paper yet. Do you have it? Does he seriously think there is a connection btw Karaism and Islam?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6484 - April 25, 2019, 03:34 PM

    Sinai on emergence of Rasm:

    https://www.academia.edu/7372306/_When_did_the_consonantal_skeleton_of_the_Quran_reach_closure_Bulletin_of_the_School_of_Oriental_and_African_Studies_77_2014_273_292_509_521


    Interesting I found especially the part on the paradox of the Quran (rasm) being transmitted ultra-precisely and its invisibility in daily life of the new muslim community (eg legal prescriptions).

    Quote

    Crone herself seems to dismiss the notion that the Quran could have been both present (in the sense of being transmitted in writing and selectively used for recitation) andabsent (in the sense that sections of the text were not commonly known) at the same time:how could the early Muslims “have had a scripture containing legislation without regarding it as a source of law?”, she asks.
    94


    Sinai gives some possible explanations but all from Mohammed's revelations as a starting point. None are convincing bc of that imo. Here I come again with my secret society document. No need to confront the plebs with the Quran. Litterati/illuminati only!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6485 - April 25, 2019, 04:38 PM

    Altara,


    Yes.
    Quote
    Why Karaism? It is only attested 8 C. Could be another struggle that might not be documenten (or documenten by Quran...)


    Karaism emerged from internal struggle with Rabbanism. He did not emerge one day whereas before the was "nothing". It has emerged "publicly" in the 8thc. I think the movement was necessarily  there before.
    The struggle was inside the Rabbanite movement where Judaism was slowly unified since 135. Karaites as Rabbanites were ethnic Jews.

    Quote
    Dye hasnt uploaded his paper yet. Do you have it? Does he seriously think there is a connection btw Karaism and Islam?


    1/ You can request it to him on the page I gave you if you have an account.
    2/I do not know. But the anti Rabbanite stance in the Quran might suggest (I say might ...) that he might think about it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6486 - April 25, 2019, 04:47 PM

    Sinai on emergence of Rasm:

    https://www.academia.edu/7372306/_When_did_the_consonantal_skeleton_of_the_Quran_reach_closure_Bulletin_of_the_School_of_Oriental_and_African_Studies_77_2014_273_292_509_521


    Interesting I found especially the part on the paradox of the Quran (rasm) being transmitted ultra-precisely and its invisibility in daily life of the new muslim community (eg legal prescriptions).


    Yes ... (yawn...)

    Quote
    Sinai gives some possible explanations but all from Mohammed's revelations as a starting point. None are convincing bc of that imo. Here I come again with my secret society document. No need to confront the plebs with the Quran. Litterati/illuminati only!


    The explications of Sinai, as he is a great believer of the narrative, are never convincing.This may explain that.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6487 - April 25, 2019, 05:14 PM

    Altara,

    How many flies have you trapped with all this yawning?   Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6488 - April 25, 2019, 06:05 PM

     Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6489 - April 26, 2019, 06:51 AM

    Sinai article:

    I do think his arguments are convincing to set the closure of the rasm at pre 650. Maybe with the exception of some later additions. It seems to be corroborated by C14 dating.

    It would be interesting if scholars like Dye, Shoemaker, Kerr would start to work with that and come up with some plausible scenarios to explain the historical facts instead of clinging to the late closure scenario.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6490 - April 26, 2019, 10:19 AM

    Quote
    I do think his arguments are convincing to set the closure of the rasm at pre 650. Maybe with the exception of some later additions. It seems to be corroborated by C14 dating.


    1/The issue with this is that the narratives indicates that Hajjaj b. Yusuf liege of Abd al Malik has intervened (one way or another) in the corpus.
    2/ C14 dating is very problematic; it is not a tool adapted to this precise topic.

    Quote
    It would be interesting if scholars like Dye, Shoemaker, Kerr would start to work with that and come up with some plausible scenarios to explain the historical facts instead of clinging to the late closure scenario.


    Without new Ms' discoveries this issue does not  seem to be able to be settled  as C14 cannot respond to it. The narratives note Hajjaj intervention, one does not know more, unfortunately.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6491 - April 26, 2019, 02:01 PM

    C14:

    Marx of Coranica says a lot of C14 were done and compared with dated manuscripts. It is reliable he says. Problem is then that some manuscripts are dated BEFORE 650. Apparently that is a red flag for the traditionalist scholars.

    You read German Altara? Check Marx interview p149:

    https://azpdf.tips/kodex-8-2018-book-studies-and-islamic-studies-in-conversation-pdf-free.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6492 - April 26, 2019, 03:16 PM

    Quote
    Marx of Coranica says a lot of C14 were done and compared with dated manuscripts. It is reliable he says


    Not enough reliable IMHO, as one need small intervals. C14 is a good tool for prehistoric stuff, not for historic one, whatever say Marx.

    Quote
    Problem is then that some manuscripts are dated BEFORE 650.


    It is not a reliable tool. Yet I considers that Quranic texts are written between 550 and 600. With some additions between 650-700.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6493 - April 26, 2019, 03:23 PM

    Quote
    C14 is a good tool for prehistoric stuff, not for historic one, whatever say Marx.


    You are wrong. C14 is not a good tool for too old stuff (bc then hardly any C14 left, all degraded to C12). The Quranic timeframe is perfect for the job.

    I agree that at this stage (wish Marx would publish some more, seems to be very reticent), we can't be sure yet, but indications are that we've got plenty of pre 650 manuscripts. Dismissing this evidence, along with the points Sinai is making is really not productive imo.

    Did you read Marx? How is your German?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6494 - April 26, 2019, 09:01 PM

    I always read and heard that prehistorians were very happy with the discovery of C14. I never read or heard that for historic problematic stuff ( Turin/Quran historians were happy about the C14 results they had as they were facing contradictory results.
    Marx:
    "Heidelberg and Leiden as well as three Syrian manuscripts (parchment)
    of the Berlin State Library have shown that the C14 method provides reliable results, there are measurements such as those of the body parchment DAM 01.27-1 (Sanaa, Yemen) with strange results."

    "(1) Ma VI 165 (Tübingen), palaeographically more likely to be dated to the 8th century, belongs to the 7th century after C14 dating and orthography. The additions to the first layer of text recognizable with the naked eye by a similar-looking ink"

    " for which the Parisian manuscript Arabe 331 (56 fol.) is regarded palaeographically as Kufic type style B 1a, dated after C14 into the 7th century, although the orthography shows only a few archaic spellings.
    Here the C14 measurement provides a dating that shows an unusually high age for a Kufic type style; the early dating, however, fits quite well with a ḥijāzī-like,"

    Early 7th c. C14 dating Kufic script, but still  "hijazi"!!! Hahaha! Marx is exceptional.

    Again, I repeat: I think that the Quranic texts are far more ancient than traditionally believed.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6495 - April 26, 2019, 09:04 PM

    https://www.academia.edu/38933898/_Le_devenir_des_propri%C3%A9t%C3%A9s_chr%C3%A9tiennes_dans_le_Bas-Iraq_contributions_%C3%A0_l_histoire_du_christianisme_syro-oriental_aux_premiers_si%C3%A8cles_de_l_Islam_Centre_culturel_de_luniversit%C3%A9_de_Salahaddin_Erbil_4-5_mai_2019 (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6496 - April 26, 2019, 09:37 PM

    C14- Marx,

    Looking into the file a bit deeper will show that the manuscripts Marx is talking about are the ones mentioned in the list analysed by ETH, Zurich:

    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/radio.html

    The dates seem to correspond with what Coranica mentions in other articles and occasions. The one of interest here is not the Sanaa 1, but the Folio 4313 (from Berlin) date within range of 606-652. Marx doesnt mention these dates in his interview and I wonder why. Bc he does mention Sanaa 1 for which he is not responsible.

    If we take out the dating done by Lyon who all seem controversial (also the Nurse Quran who objectively is C14'ed too early), we have several other manuscripts that are pre 650. The date 650 is 95 % probability. So an earlier date is much more probable than the 650 date. Especially wiith 3 manuscripts being so early, the probability is quite low that each time the real date would be towards the end of the time range. Best guess would be towards the middle: 630.

    So lets make a list;

    SANAA 1: 606-649
    BIRMINGHAM: 568-645
    FOLIO 4313:  606-652

    I left out all the early ones dated by Lyon since they obviously made mistakes. I assume that Lyon's later datings will have been better as they have learned from there mistakes.

    Why do we need to always go back to the Islamic Awareness site? Why doesnt any scholar publish the results in a scientific way so we can really study it, instead of guessing?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6497 - April 27, 2019, 07:20 AM

    This is what Eleonore Cellard think of the Sanaa manuscripts:

    "Well, materially speaking the Sanaa palimpsest was a book/codex, an expensive one, adhering to all the aesthetic rules of the great public Qur'ans we know today from the late 1st/beginning 2nd century H. I'm preparing an article in which I develop my arguments.

    https://twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1085076011681828864
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6498 - April 27, 2019, 07:25 AM

    What kind of mistakes did they do in Lyon?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6499 - April 27, 2019, 08:20 AM

    Why doesn't any scholar publish the results in a scientific way so we can really study it, instead of guessing?
    SANAA 1: 606-649
    BIRMINGHAM: 568-645
    FOLIO 4313:  606-652


     The narrative.
    1/ 606-30 is impossible according to it. All scholars are obliged to compose with the doxa which imposes Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem which want that the text have been written late 632 and codified in 650.
    2/ Due to the general  (revisionist about the text in itself but not to the "core" of the Mecca framework) scholarship (Dye-like...) trend, to see additions in the text  (or the text as constituted by writing layers)  after between 632-650, or even later.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6500 - April 27, 2019, 11:52 AM

    Quote
    The narrative.
    1/ 606-30 is impossible according to it.


    Indeed, that seems to be a red flag for both the traditionalists (for some reason they really need an oral transmission before Uthman) and the revisionists (clinging to late composition, I dont know why).

    Sinai mentions a pre- 650 composition but doesnt develop the idea and its consequences, as if the potato is just too hot.

    Quote
    What kind of mistakes did they do in Lyon?


    Their dates are simply too early. Have a look at the Islamic awareness site. I think they give a good resumé. And at the end of the table there is the "nurses Quran"which also has a written date on it which is much later than the C14. Other labs dating the same manuscripts (for Sanaa1 it has been done) give early 7th C dates, not 6th C.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6501 - April 27, 2019, 02:59 PM

    Quote
    Indeed, that seems to be a red flag for both the traditionalists (for some reason they really need an oral transmission before Uthman) and the revisionists (clinging to late composition, I dont know why).


    1/ Red flag for both because one way or another, they need that it be, one way or another, inside the framework Mecca/Kaba. (near or far, it is always there, even with the sole presence of "Prophet Muhammad"...) It must be there; even Dye cannot put him aside, meaning going outside it to explain "what happened ".
    They need it as well because the Quran says that it is an oral proclamation. They cling to what it says (except Dye : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8aIOYq5UwY
    2/ Late composition 1/ for the aforementioned reason, 2/ because of the formalism of the text which would attest writing layers. It is Wansbrough who has start the idea.

    Quote
    Sinai mentions a pre- 650 composition but doesn't develop the idea and its consequences, as if the potato is just too hot.


    Sinai tells many things in his papers (I do not have his last (?) book...) changes many times of opinions, therefore is rarely clear, and especially never draw the consequences of what he says (more or less revisionist) proclaiming that he considers the framework Mecca/Kaba/Zem zem historical.
    There's many things strange in the field...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6502 - April 27, 2019, 03:04 PM

    Altara,

    I understand their reticence. Probably that is why I am pushing so hard on this issue. I think the facts are not getting a fair chance here because of prejudice for different reasons. But there is nothing I can do to get more answers. The scholars are just not publishing their reports on C14. They wont start doing it because I ask.

    This revelation thing and oral Quran is just ridiculous. Everyone knows by common sense that it can't have happened that way. I can imagine a prophet saying he heard God, but from that faze and getting a perfectly memorized text without it being written down is just not plausible.

    Much more plausible is that the text got edited at some time and memorized after that. C14 shows the editing was very early, and indeed, maybe faze 1 (the prophet coming down the mountain) can be dismissed with?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6503 - April 27, 2019, 03:26 PM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes.
    Quote
    I understand their reticence. Probably that is why I am pushing so hard on this issue. I think the facts are not getting a fair chance here because of prejudice for different reasons. But there is nothing I can do to get more answers. The scholars are just not publishing their reports on C14. They wont start doing it because I ask.


    Sure, they won't. But did they really have it? I do not know. I repeat that I think (like Reynolds...) that the Quranic text is far more ancient than thought. It was of course reworked between 650-700. But not so much.

    Quote
    This revelation thing and oral Quran is just ridiculous. Everyone knows by common sense that it can't have happened that way. I can imagine a prophet saying he heard God, but from that faze and getting a perfectly memorized text without it being written down is just not plausible.


    Going against the "oral proclamation" is going against the narrative. It is the only point that Dye dare to contest. But it is not enough, as "Prophet Muhammad" and the rest (or not) are still there.

    Reread my previous post about Sinai. Things are strange... in the field.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6504 - April 27, 2019, 03:32 PM

    Sinai:

    He has been awarded an important grant:

    https://www.orinst.ox.ac.uk/article/professor-nicolai-sinai-awarded-european-research-council-grant

    It will be interesting to read results of his work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6505 - April 27, 2019, 04:26 PM

    I just read what Sinai has written in the Rutledge Handbook of Early Islam, 2018, about the very early datings. He doesn't question any of them (Kiel, Lyon), but says that we must wait and see.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6506 - April 27, 2019, 04:33 PM

    Thanks Björn for being our source for Rutledge!

    Waiting will not get us anywhere. I have impression that last C14's on Islamic Awareness or anywhere else in the open date from 2015. So there is plenty of time to publish or hopefully have a plan of action for more. Maybe it will be part of Sinai's work under the new grant?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6507 - April 28, 2019, 05:41 PM

    Laïla Nehmé (2018) - The Darb al-Bakrah. A Caravan Route in North-West Arabia Discovered by Ali I. al-Ghabban. Catalogue of the inscriptions.

    With contributions by Françoise Briquel-Chatonnet, Alain Desreumaux, Ali I. al-Ghabban, Michael Macdonald, Laïla Nehmé, and François Villeneuve

    Quote
    This volume presents the inscriptions recorded in 2004 along the so-called Darb al-Bakrah, an ancient north south caravan track connecting Hegra with Petra. The inscriptions were found at a number of sites along the track. They are carved in a variety of scripts and languages, among which are Imperial Aramaic, Nabataean, Nabataeo-Arabic, Palmyrene, Ancient South Arabian, Ancient North Arabian (Taymanitic, Dadanitic, Hismaic, Safaitic, Thamudic B, C, and D, etc.), and Greek. The Arabic inscriptions and the rock drawings will be published in separate volumes. The inscriptions are edited by six scholars specialised in the history and epigraphy of ancient Arabia.


    https://www.academia.edu/38960651/The_Darb_al-Bakrah._A_Caravan_Route_in_North-West_Arabia_Discovered_by_Ali_I._al-Ghabban._Catalogue_of_the_inscriptions
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6508 - April 28, 2019, 05:50 PM

    https://thedebateinitiative.com/2012/10/20/tom-hollands-obsession-with-islams-origins-a-critical-response/

    Pieces such as this sometimes make me re-think the validity and soundness of much of revisionist scholarship, especially concerning the existence and/or relevance the city of Makkah, the Quranic milieu (geography, most notably), early Islam, etc., etc. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6509 - April 28, 2019, 07:22 PM

    https://thedebateinitiative.com/2012/10/20/tom-hollands-obsession-with-islams-origins-a-critical-response/

    Pieces such as this sometimes make me re-think the validity and soundness of much of revisionist scholarship, especially concerning the existence and/or relevance the city of Makkah, the Quranic milieu (geography, most notably), early Islam, etc., etc. 

    Oshhh....   that is 8 year old ..   there is a serious problem with those brainless brain washed NUT CASES who move from one faith to other faith through so-called atheism and settles down in to Islam .

    don't get me wrong.. if you speak to them other than faith related issues they are very intelligent and thoughtful  but  these guys as children never grew up in a Muslim family surroundings.. they are at best confused robots turned in to Islamic faith heads.. I wonder how he moved in to Islam from Christianity?  and what was his original name...I guess he did it in Bahrain..

    Quote


    I don't think Academics should give so  much importance to these fools and what they say on web .. BUT THOSE WHO CRITICIZE ORIGINS OF ISLAM  IN PUBLIC HAVE TO BE CAREFUL & watch their backs  from the followers of these fools  as they are open to the horrific attacks that happened in the past for folks like

    dr. Avijit Roy [/u]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkVnAOZGKms

    That fool is a Zakir Naik of west
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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