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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6450 - April 12, 2019, 09:11 PM

    Altara,

    We can say it's about probability. Indeed, there is a very small chance that it is pure coincidence that eg no Arabic script was found in the Petra Papyri or the pre-islamic Nessuna ones. Hardly any arabic was found in pre-islamic inscriptions.

    If it was widespread in Iraq, it would have been found without searching too much.

    The indication is there that pre-conquest, this script was not very popular. So much that for quite some time it was thought that the Quran was the very first work in Arabic script and the script was invented to write the Quran.

    Thought exercise:

    Starting from the evidence of scarcity of pre-conquest Arabic and explosion of it post-conquest, what could be an explanation?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6451 - April 13, 2019, 09:38 AM

    Quote
    If it was widespread in Iraq, it would have been found without searching too much.


    Not necessarily as pre Islamic inscription are Christians. They've been erased as they bear crosses. Crosses mean idolatry. What one found is what had escaped.

     
    Quote
    this script was not very popular

    Possibly.
    If it was crafted in monasteries, it was used more or less for religious purposes which slowly disseminated: 512/568 inscriptions, Negev inscriptions.He only imposed himself as a secular script from the Quranic texts which was written with it. Meaning that Quranic texts was written before 640 (PERF 558).

    Quote
    So much that for quite some time it was thought that the Quran was the very first work in Arabic script and the script was invented to write the Quran.


    As it was crafted in monasteries that does not surprise me. One always found it before Islam with religious purposes; 512/568

    Quote
    Starting from the evidence of scarcity of pre-conquest Arabic and explosion of it post-conquest, what could be an explanation?


    See above Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6452 - April 13, 2019, 12:06 PM

    Altara,

    The Greek and Syriac with crosses was not removed but the Arabic was? Far fetched.

    Point here is also that you need special structures to keep a low intensity script going. Parents will not spontaneously teach their children, or children will not pick it up bc seeing it everywhere.

    It is almost as if a secret society kept  the script alive (after a first experiment to popularise it failed?), and with the push of the conquest, this script was promoted to reinforce the new power structures.

    Plausible theory?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6453 - April 13, 2019, 02:21 PM

    Quote
    The Greek and Syriac with crosses was not removed but the Arabic was? Far fetched.


    Reflect.

    Quote
    Point here is also that you need special structures to keep a low intensity script going.


    Monasteries.

    Quote
    It is almost as if a secret societyMonasteries kept  the script alive (after a first experiment to popularise it failed?), and with the push of the conquest, this script was promoted to reinforce the new power structures.

    Promoted it as it was already a religious one (512/568)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6454 - April 13, 2019, 02:27 PM

    Monasteries:

    I see the logic in it, from the Quranic text it seems the most logical explanation. But from the archeology of Negev, the papyri of Nessana/Petra, nothing shows any signs of Arabic pre-Islam in these monasteries.

    Do you have any reason to point to Iraq? I mean something concrete, not a string of assumptions.

    Why do you keep mentioning these dates: 512/568?

    Monasteries/secret society: one doesn't exclude the other. Histroy shows that monasteries often were breeding grounds of new ideas.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6455 - April 13, 2019, 03:07 PM

    Reflect.
    ...........................

    Hello Altara .,  What is your opinion on these Caliphs of Early Islam...??

    Quote
    The Rashidun Caliphate. ...

    Abu Bakr.:   Born in the year 573., Was a Caliph and in Power  from 8 June 632  to 22 August 634.,       [ Father of Aisha,   and Father in-law of Prophet of Islam   "Muhammad" who allegedly married 9/13 year old Aisha


    Umar ibn al-Khattab:   Born in the year  584., Was a Caliph and in Power  from  23 August 634   to 3 November 644 and was Assassinated by a Persian,  He was Father in-law of Prophet of Islam and Father of Hafsa bint Umar,

    Uthman ibn Affan:  Born in the year  579., Was a Caliph and in Power  from     11 November 644    to 20 June 656 and Assassinated at the end of a siege upon his house) . He was Son in-law of Prophet of Islam and Husband of Muhammad's daughters, Ruqayya and later Umm Kulthum

    Ali ibn Abi Talib   Born on 15 September 601.,   Was a Caliph and in Power  from     20 June 656     to 29 January 661  and Assassinated during Fajr prayer in Kufa.  He was Muhammad's first cousin., And was Husband of Prophet of Islam's daughter Fatimah Also was Husband of Umamah bint Zainab,  Prophet of Islam's  granddaughter  All modern descendants of Muhammad are supposed to have Prophet of Islam genealogy  through through Ali & Fatima


    SO QUESTIONS TO YOU DEAR Altara.,   

    1). Do you believe in that above narration of early  Islamic Power houses?? 

    2). And    DO YO HAVE ANY LINKS OF PEER REVIEWED PUBLISHED PAPERS  FROM WESTERN ACADEMICS WHO WERE/ARE FACULTY MEMBERS IN UNIVERSITIES ON THOSE CALIPHS


    Well let me list other guys also here .. so I can ask fuhrer questions ... please see this list below which overlaps   to the names above




    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6456 - April 13, 2019, 05:59 PM

    Monasteries:

    But from the archaeology of Negev, the papyri of Nessana/Petra, nothing shows any signs of Arabic pre-Islam in these monasteries.

    Because they does not need it. As they have Greek (yawn...)


    Quote
    Do you have any reason to point to Iraq? I mean something concrete, not a string of assumptions.


    Greek  was in the west.

    Quote
    Why do you keep mentioning these dates: 512/568?


    Get to islamic awareness.

    Quote
    Monasteries/secret society: one doesn't exclude the other. History shows that monasteries often were breeding grounds of new ideas.


    Yes, but secret society is an anachronism.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6457 - April 13, 2019, 06:06 PM

    Hello Altara .,  What is your opinion on these Caliphs of Early Islam...??


    Warlords dressed as "Companions of the Prophet" 2 c. later.



    Quote
    SO QUESTIONS TO YOU DEAR Altara.,    1). Do you believe in that above narration of early  Islamic Power houses??  


    See above.

    Quote
    2). And    DO YO HAVE ANY LINKS OF PEER REVIEWED PUBLISHED PAPERS  FROM WESTERN ACADEMICS WHO WERE/ARE FACULTY MEMBERS IN UNIVERSITIES ON THOSE CALIPHS


    Nope as they repeat 9th c. narratives.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6458 - April 13, 2019, 06:10 PM

    Quote
    secret society is an anachronism


    I got this idea from the article about secret Jewish Societies related to the Dead Sea scroll. Why anachronism?

    Zebed and Harrran inscription are multilingual. So having Greek didnt stop them having Arabic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6459 - April 13, 2019, 06:24 PM

    Quote
    the article about secret Jewish Societies


    ?


    Quote
    Zebed and Harrran inscription are multilingual. So having Greek didnt stop them having Arabic.


    I never said that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6460 - April 13, 2019, 06:30 PM


    Get to islamic awareness.



     Cheesy Cheesy  i was worried that you are going to say that to me  Cheesy Cheesy but your answer  
    Warlords dressed as "Companions of the Prophet" 2 c. later.

    I fully agree with you on those warlords and their story tellers in the name of Porphet of Islam "Muhammad" but is it not  time for academics  to inquire and clear these warlords and their real stories.?  I mean why??   even many of those who question Existence of Muhammad would not even touch the subject of early warlords in Islam ..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6461 - April 13, 2019, 07:27 PM

    Quote
    but is it not  time for academics  to inquire and clear these warlords and their real stories.?  I mean why??   even many of those who question Existence of Muhammad would not even touch the subject of early warlords in Islam ..

    Because they are constitutive of the narrative. As such, none scholar investigate anything.  They believe it. They are great believers. As such they do not question none of these attested  "Companion of the Prophet" Ali or Muawiya  who do not left any trace of their supposed life with the Prophet and their great life in Mecca/Medina/Kaba.
    Simply because all of this is fiction. That is the logical response.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6462 - April 13, 2019, 07:29 PM

    First Caliphs:

    I agree it is fiction. But maybe some names are correct? Someone must have led the conquerors?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6463 - April 13, 2019, 08:12 PM

    Quote
    But maybe some names are correct? Someone must have led the conquerors?


    The names  (correct or not) were dressed as  "Companions of the Prophet". From the sources one knows at least that Muawiya and Ali are corrects names.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6464 - April 14, 2019, 07:36 AM

    Zebed and Harran inscription:

    Both are connected to martyria, Is more known about what exactly was going on in these martyria? Did certain texts come out of there, were certain activities developed there?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6465 - April 14, 2019, 11:53 PM

    I don't know.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6466 - April 15, 2019, 09:10 PM

    Zebed and Harran inscription:

    Both are connected to martyria, Is more known about what exactly was going on in these martyria? Did certain texts come out of there, were certain activities developed there?

    Hi  mundi .. where did/do  you read about those inscriptions?   do you have any link on them apart from islamic awareness.org??

    http://www.scholarofthehouse.org/onrebi.html

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6467 - April 15, 2019, 09:16 PM

    Because they are constitutive of the narrative. As such, none scholar investigate anything.  They believe it. They are great believers. As such they do not question none of these attested  "Companion of the Prophet" Ali or Muawiya  who do not left any trace of their supposed life with the Prophet and their great life in Mecca/Medina/Kaba.
    Simply because all of this is fiction. That is the logical response.

     Cheesy    let me recap that

    "None of the scholars investigate anything.  They believe in narratives.
    They are great believers."

    .... Altara......

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6468 - April 15, 2019, 09:20 PM

    Yeez,

    Harran and Zebed inscriptions: they are mentioned in all articles about arabic epigraphy. Islamic awareness gives a handy overview. Why do you want more info? What is your idea around these inscriptions?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6469 - April 15, 2019, 09:26 PM

    Yeez,

    ...............Why do you want more info?... What is your idea around these inscriptions?

    well it is good to know what they published w.r.t inscriptions and how "SCHOLARS" interpret them.. but more important is your 2nd question which covertly or overtly comes in to the field of "Science of dating objects"  from ancient times.. and that is my interest ..

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6470 - April 15, 2019, 10:04 PM

    Cheesy    let me recap that

    "None of the scholars investigate anything.  They believe in narratives.
    They are great believers."

    .... Altara......


    Issue is sources are scarce and not so crystal clear so it is easier to cling to the muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6471 - April 16, 2019, 12:19 AM

    Yes, easy way out as they believe the narrative as historical whereas they have no validation of it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6472 - April 16, 2019, 12:33 PM

    .................... idea around these inscriptions?................


    On those words of mundi .. let me add some links..

    Archaeological Dating Methods   2014 by David W. Cloud..  and that  dr. prof. Mr. David wrote
    Quote
      We Refuse Dates That Contradict the Bible For the following important reasons we refuse to accept archaeological dates that contradict the Bible: First, the Bible has demonstrated its accuracy in the face of the most vicious assaults, whereas the skeptics have been proven wrong consistently.

    Consider that in the 19th century, skeptics claimed that writing didn’t exist in Moses’ day. Tey doubted the existence of Ur of the Chaldees, of the advanced ancient city-states and
    religious towers mentioned in Genesis 10-11, of complex legal codes in that era, of camels in Palestine in the days of Abraham, of King David and King Solomon, of the Hittites
    and the Philistines, of Sargon and Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, to name a few.
    Tey said that the book of Acts was flled with historical inaccuracies. In all of these cases and hundreds more, the skeptics were wrong and the Bible was right.

    well  I love it..    well let me add some links

     Dating Methods (Absolute and Relative) in Archaeology of Art

    Dating Techniques In Archaeology   By: Grahame Johnston

    Rock Art Dating Methods: Problems and Solutions Absolute Dating Problems from Saudi-archaeology.com

    THE MYSTERY STONE Does a rock in New Mexico show the Ten Commandments in ancient Hebrew? Harvard professor says yes. By Batya Ungar-Sargon
     

    and  that is the stone..  Hmm..  Bible must have written in New Mexico.. otherwise how is it found in US of A and the stone is dated for biblical times...??


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6473 - April 16, 2019, 03:50 PM

    Dating of inscriptions:

    That is a s problem, and in your list you obviously show some fakes.

    The Harran and Zebed inscriptions seem to be reliably dated, but always good indeed to keep in mind it could be wrong.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6474 - April 16, 2019, 06:01 PM

    Karaism:

    Apparently G. Dye is doing work on Karaism: https://www.academia.edu/38824446/New_Perspectives_on_the_History_of_Karaism_Nouvelles_perspectives_sur_lhistoire_du_kara%C3%AFsme._Colloque_international_-_Bruxelles_-_13-16_mai_2019

    I think it is an example of the diversity of ideologies of post-antiquity.
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Karaism

    Coming back to the Quran, why not a group of people under sponsoring of a mecenas coming up with a text in an almost secret script (Arabic). Only a small group of litterati (the ones reading Arabic, which was an almost secret society), knew the contents. Script was later divulged amongst more leaders, without probably the holy text (Quran) being read and known by them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6475 - April 16, 2019, 06:09 PM

    Dating of inscriptions:

    That is a s problem, and in your list you obviously show some fakes. ..

    well i deliberately choose to show a  fake inscription   but apart from fakes  there are many problems in inscriptions.,  such as interpretations   of  inscriptions  and  dating itself is a problem dear mundi ..   but question to you.,

    did you come across any publication that has highlighted Arabic inscriptions before Islam   say  between 3rd century to 6th century in the present Shia geographical area  such as Iran, Iraq(Near the border towns of present Iran   .. Basrah.. Amarah ..)  and present Yemen ??

    Anyways  let me add the book link of



    Kitab Al-Zaharah A PDF FILE  400 pages

    Kitāb al-Zahrah (The Book of the Flower). The first half that book was composed by Abū Bakr Muḥammad Ibn Abī Sulaiman Dāwūd al-Iṣfahānī (A.H. 297/A.D. 909). Edited from the Unique Manuscript at the Egyptian Library by A. R. Nykl in collaboration with Ibrahim Tuqan. 9¾ × 6¾, pp. viii + 406. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1932. 11s.

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6476 - April 16, 2019, 08:09 PM

    Yeez,

    Ok, explain yourself further. What point do you want to make?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6477 - April 17, 2019, 09:24 AM

    Quote
    Yeez,

    Ok, explain yourself further. What point do you want to make?


    dear mundi that is such a  great question...   great point ,,,,,,   I am pulling my hair to answer that  general ..... question/point  ...........  to my self (NOT TO YOU).,  it is indeed tough..

      What is the purpose?  what point am i making by writing posts and asking question when i have gillion things to do?   ....  Woff   ..  difficult one..
    .
     As  far as this point / questions for you concerned ., the logic behind is very simple..

    Quote
    1. well i deliberately choose to show a  fake inscription   but apart from fakes  there are many problems in inscriptions.,  such as interpretations   of  inscriptions  and  dating itself is a problem dear mundi ..   but question to you.,

    2, did you come across any publication that has highlighted Arabic inscriptions before Islam   say  between 3rd century to 6th century in the present Shia geographical area  such as Iran, Iraq(Near the border towns of present Iran   .. Basrah.. Amarah ..)  and present Yemen ??


    well  there are serious scientific, logical problems and and questions in dating an object .,  in fact it is much more difficult scientific problem to date  accurately  a graffiti  or  paintings,  or writing  on rocks than dating a rock itself... the error bars could be as high as 100 years or more....

    2nd question to you is because I am under the impression that you are in touch with published literature  on   such subjects as   proto-Islam .. Proto-Quran... ((years.. 550 to 630))  . concepts that may have originated in some Christian/Jewish/Arab pagan or Roman    multi cultural environment... So  the point is much of the  Quran(NOT WHOLE BOOK)  can be written anywhere including in areas such  as Iran or even Yemen

    So question to you was were there any prominent Christian /Jewish /Roman monasteries  or prominent centers in these countries  during early Islamic times ... and that is related to Quran..

    We must realize Quran is a simplest book.,   it is  a book of individual stories  based upon OT/NT and bit of pagan stories that were floating around middle east .. The book is like a   George Bernard Shaw play The Doctor's Dilemma  ..  It is mainly a book of dialogues ., So many of these stories   of Quran could have been written anywhere not necessarily in Syria or in Petra or in Jordan or in Israel/Palestine ..


    well  as usual let me add some publications/book links here

    Quote


    well many of those links should go in to resource center

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6478 - April 24, 2019, 09:09 AM



    Yes, Karaism is an interesting thing. Somehow, it could be very tempting to see it in relation with the Quran. But it seems appears after the 7th c. I think Dye thought about it.

    Quote
    Coming back to the Quran, why not a group of people under sponsoring of a mecenas coming up with a text in an almost secret script (Arabic). Only a small group of litterati (the ones reading Arabic, which was an almost secret society), knew the contents. Script was later divulged amongst more leaders, without probably the holy text (Quran) being read and known by them.


    Ground this with available sources.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6479 - April 24, 2019, 10:08 AM

    Altara .. Hi Altara.. what happened ??  I read your response to me .. and I was reading my good friend Akay  and by the time I was trying to respond to you your response to me has been deleted.. Why?  there was NOTHING WRONG  in what you said along with few yawns   Cheesy

    if I remember your deleted response correctly,  you questioned these points of my post to mundi  with couple of yawns  Cheesy

    ...........................

    Quote
    1.) ............So question to you was were there any prominent Christian /Jewish /Roman monasteries  or prominent centers in these countries  during early Islamic times ... and that is related to Quran..


    2).  ......  it is  a book of individual stories  based upon OT/NT and bit of pagan stories that were floating around middle east ..

    3).  .....So many of these stories   of Quran could have been written anywhere not necessarily in Syria or in Petra or in Jordan or in Israel/Palestine .....

     Altara correct me  here

    So you did not like me saying . "Jewish monasteries"  right?? correct me if I am wrong dear Altara..

    So question to you now .. Were there any Jewish Monasteries  from Jewish sects in the middle east during the time between  say.. some  100 AD to 500 AD??

    When I say  "monastery"  from Jewish Faith or from other faiths ........ what I mean is   this

    Quote
    Monasticism ..  a word that is originated from Greeks("mono"  means "alone")    or living life alone ... or "monkhood"  is a religious way of life in which one renounces worldly pursuits to devote oneself fully to spiritual work.  ..


    IN OTHER WORDS.. NO WIFE ..NO CHILDREN .. NO FRIENDS.. NO PETS ..NO INTERNET .. Cheesy way of living life ..  It is true it is NOT there in "RABBINICAL JUDAISM " or In Islam or in that Zoroastrianism   religious books and is not as prevalent as in  say Roman Catholicism,  in Eastern Orthodoxy Christian sects .. in  Hinduism.. In Buddhism...in  Jainism  ...etc etc faiths  ...

    but but .. again Altara .. let me repeat the question .. were there any Jewish sects that were practicing  some sort of Monasticism or Monastic way of life with in Jewish faith of that time .say between 1st century AD to 5th century??

    Anyways murders mayhem everywhere in the name of faith .. life is tough and it disappears .. but what one has to do   ONE HAS TO DO...   and my goal is to educate folks   and arguing with folks that follow the posts of my good friend Akay.. Akii   in this forum and in the world wide web..   

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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