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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6390 - March 31, 2019, 08:36 PM

    Quote
    by saying that /


    why is that necessary that they believe the history about the origin of the Quran as given in a determined place and time?



     Simple. If they did not believe to it (the history about the origin of the Quran as given in a determined place and time), they would not have an explication of the existence of the Quran. This belief is therefore mandatory.

    Islam at its core is the Quran. Nothing else.

    Quote
    Are you not tightly coupling  ALL MUSLIMS IN TO ONE MONOLITHIC BLOCK and those who differ what you are saying can not be  Muslims and  can not live as Muslim


    Of course, as they'd  logically realize that the book is a forgery; then, it has no value to be followed. It'd not come from God, nor a "prophet", nor nor nor...  and: nor. Then what remains of this text to be followed, apart their nostalgia of their childhood when they believed all what was said about it, which made them believed that it was the Increate Word of God given to the Prophet Muhammad in Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem/Kaba?  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6391 - March 31, 2019, 08:51 PM

    Altara - Do you have a paper in English detailing the arguments for your position that the Arabic script developed from the Syriac and not the Nabatean one? I am aware of Briquel-Chatonnet's paper but I can't translate it into English. And how do you deal with consensus now that the Syriac-hypothesis is false? This consensus is not based on assuming the truth of the tradition but one modern research so it can't simply be dismissed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6392 - March 31, 2019, 10:13 PM

    Quote
    Altara - Do you have a paper in English detailing the arguments for your position that the Arabic script developed from the Syriac and not the Nabatean one?And how do you deal with consensus now that the Syriac-hypothesis is false?


    1/Nope, only what I said here (at length) some months ago.
    2/ You can search my posts all is there.
    3/ I did not "simply" dismissed the "consensus", read these posts in this thread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6393 - March 31, 2019, 11:26 PM

    Hello. A few months ago someone linked a Facebook post(?) here by a revisionist scholar summarising the linguistic, historical, contextual etc case against the traditional framework. I would appreciate it if it can be linked again, as I’ve been unable to find it. Thanks
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6394 - March 31, 2019, 11:28 PM

    Perhaps this is what you are looking for:

    Quote
    Dear Lamsiah,

    It was, as always, very nice to hear your voice this morning. In the meantime, I have had a chance to look at everything again. You mentioned that there was criticism about the map in my article « The Language of the Koran ». As I mentioned, the map originates from a Durch Newspaper article by our friend Eildert Mulder (attached here), which was intended for a GENERAL Audience, this was later translated into French by Père Gallez, thence into English by Anouar Majid, into German by Markus Groß, and into Arabic by yourself. It seems to have taken on a life of its own. The map, was intended to give general geographical information for non-specialists. It was never intended to be used in a scientific context. It is unfortunate that my article upon which the interview and its translations are based, « Von der arabischen Lesekultur zur arabischen Schreibkultur » is not cited in academic works. One must make a distinction between non-specialist and specialised articles. In the long German article (attached here), I go into more detail.

    I used the term Arabia Petraea in a general, descriptive sense. Not as a designation of Roman provincial borders. These borders changed with administrative reforms. Indeed you will see that the ‹ classical › Roman Province named Arabia Petraea, encompasses roughly the modern State of Israel + the Sinai Peninsula, to its North lay Syria (<صور‎, I.e. the hinterland of Tyre; NOT from Assyria!!). Arabia Deserta and Arabia Felix were never Roman Provinces, just general descriptors. This is how Arabia Petraea was intended here.

    My argument is quite simple: a) to the South of Arabia Petraea we find but few Nabataean Inscriptions, excepting graffiti on the incense route and some oases. One must distinguish between formal epigrapy and informal epigraphy (such as graffiti) b) Ancient South Arabic and Ancient North Arabic inscriptions in pre-islamic times, use derivations of the Sabaic script (خط المسند); Ancient North Arabian is attested in Northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Southern Syria — If the Qur’an had been written in الحجاز, we would expect it to have been written in this script. For the inscriptions from this region see Khālid ibn Muḥammad ʿAbbās Askūbī ,ثموديييية من منطقة رم بين ثليثوات وقيعان الصنيع جنوبغرب تيماء Riyadh, 2007/1428 with numerous examples. c) The language (or Semitic dialect) which very closely resembles what became classical Arabic is Safaitic which seems concentrated in Southern Syria, Eastern Jordan and NW Saudi Arabia. Dialect geography makes clear that this was not the language of the Hedjaz.

    We now have two independent criteria: script and language (or dialect) distribution, both of which point to Syria and Jordan (the Roman provinces of Syria and Arabia Petraea) and not to Arabia Deserta or Felix.
    Another argument is that if the Qurʾān had emerged in the Hedjaz, the we would find traces of Christianity there. Outside of the Roman Empire there was no heresy (cf. the Nestorians in Asia). But in the Hedjaz, there are no traces of Christianity. Furthermore, the Christological debates, to which the Qur’an bears witness seem to be concentrated in groups which were concentrated in Syria (i.e. the human nature of Jesus, avoiding alcohol as a rejection of the Eucharist [Council of Gangra]; emphasis on Martyrdom (ܣܗܕܐ into Arabic as شهيد‎ etc.). But we would also need to explain all of the allusions to and from Jewish literature (such as the Talmud — if there were Jewish tribes in Arabia in the 7th century, which I very much doubt, then they would hardly have transported the Talmud on their camels —) which also points to Syria/Iraq (Babylonian Talmud). The decisive area is الجزيرة العربية in the old sense of the word.

    Here we can conclude that script, language and theology of the Qur’an, three independent strains of evidence, point to Syria/Iraq/Jordan as the place of origin of the Qur’an.

    This in turn explains why we find Syro-Aramaic influence (Fehllesungen) in the Qurʾān and why the theological vocabulary of the Qurʾān is largely borrowed from Eastern Aramaic (both Syriac and Jewish Babylonian Aramaic, the language of the Babylonian Talmud) are Eastern Aramaic dialects as Luxenberg (Syro-Aramaic Reading) and myself (Aramaisms in the Qurʾān and their significance, in Ibn Warraq ed., Christmas in the Qur’an) have shown (i.e. just as in Western European languages, such as French or German the Christian theological vocabulary is borrowed from Latin, the language of the missionaries whilst in Russian the borrowing is from Greek, the language of the missionaries to the Slavic peoples). This we also find in Ancient Ethiopic (Ge`ez) since Ethiopia was converted to Christianity by Syriac missionaries. Since there is no evidence of either Christianity (see above) or (Syriac) Christian missions to the Hedjaz, a Qurʾān originating in the Hedjaz is even more of an anomaly.
    Now we have four independent witnesses: script, language, theology and vocabulary. All point to the Syro-Mesopotamian region.

    As we discussed on the telephone, inscriptions must be viewed in the context in which they were written. So, for example, we find Palmyrene (a dialect of Aramaic) text on an inscription for a deceased Germanic lady in Britain: https://romaninscriptionsofbritain.org/inscriptions/1065

    Now nobody will ever claim that Palmyrene was a widely spoken language in Roman Britain! And Germanic Palmyrene speakers … But when we look closely at the text we see that a Palmyrene Aramaic speaker in the Roman Army married a Germanic woman who died whilst he was stationed in Britain. So the two Latin (!) inscriptions from the Yemen (http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epimap.php…) or Farasan Kabir (http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epimap.php…) do not indicate that Latin was widely spoken in the Red Sea or Southern Arabia (=Felix).

    This applies equally to inscriptions written in a (Ancient North) Arabic predecessor to the language of the Qurʾān. The biggest concentration of such in an official context (i.e. formal epigraphy, i.e. written by rulers such as the Namarah inscription (100 km SE of Damascus; https://www.islamic-awareness.org/…/inscriptio…/namarah.html) point to Syria, not the Hedjaz. Inscriptions, i.e. graffiti along the frankincense road through Arabia are manifold, and in various languages from various times. Such cannot be used to draw a map of the linguistic landscape of a given region at a given time.

    The concentration of inscriptions in a script relevant to the Qurʾān in a closely related earlier form of the language point to Syria, not to the Hedjaz.

    I add maps for your convenience. One could take the map you already have and recue the size of Arabia Petraea and add « Syria » to the North. I hope that this helps. If not, let me know.

    Godbless,

    Robert

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6395 - March 31, 2019, 11:30 PM

    Thank you, Mahgraye Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6396 - March 31, 2019, 11:31 PM

    My pleasure. You are indeed a lurker, haha. Please participate more in the discussions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6397 - April 01, 2019, 12:10 AM

    Nothing really new here but a nice summary though there are a lot of open questions.

    https://www.academia.edu/12666359/The_Early_Religious_Beliefs_of_the_Arabs_of_Palestine_Seminar_Paper_

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6398 - April 01, 2019, 12:20 AM

    Thanks, Marc S. Great paper. A lot of new insights.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6399 - April 01, 2019, 10:27 AM

    What Kerr says is important:
    three independent strains of evidence, point to Syria/Iraq/Jordan as the place of origin of the Qur’an.

    Of course (yawn...)

    Inscriptions, i.e. graffiti along the frankincense road through Arabia are manifold, and in various languages from various times. Such cannot be used to draw a map of the linguistic landscape of a given region at a given time.

    It is, yet, what desperately search to do a guy like Jallad  because he is a Muslim, believing in the history of Ibn Ishaq which explains the origin of the Quranic text in the peninsula. And nowhere else. Because if it is not from the peninsula all is collapsing around him. The believing in Ibn Ishaq is mandatory to be Muslim. There's no escape possible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6400 - April 01, 2019, 11:19 AM

    There is none. He is an ordinary scholar. Bright guy.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6401 - April 01, 2019, 11:21 AM

    It isn't. It's a descriptive word. Al-Jallad is a scholar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6402 - April 01, 2019, 11:33 AM

    Doesn't mean anything nor does it have anything to do with Al-Jallad. Still a scholar. That is evident. If you have proof to the contrary, provide it, or share with us why he is not a scholar, descriptively, at least.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6403 - April 01, 2019, 11:39 AM

    Scholar of Arabic. That also extends to the study of the Quran, especially its language.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6404 - April 01, 2019, 11:42 AM

    And...? And of course its is relevant to the study of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6405 - April 01, 2019, 11:49 AM

    And...? And of course its is relevant to the study of the Quran.

    that was a mistake on my part to write those responses dear  Mahgraye ..  indeed it is   relevant to the study of the THE BOOK  Quran

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6406 - April 01, 2019, 11:50 AM

    Indeed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6407 - April 01, 2019, 03:32 PM

    Smart student! I think archeological evidence is often underrated in the Islamic origin debates.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6408 - April 01, 2019, 03:37 PM

    Quote
    Smart student! I think archeological evidence is often underrated in the Islamic origin debates.


    Myers or Al-Jallad?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6409 - April 01, 2019, 03:41 PM

    Quote
    It is, yet, what desperately search to do a guy like Jallad  because he is a Muslim, believing in the history of Ibn Ishaq which explains the origin of the Quranic text in the peninsula.


    I wouldn't underestimate Jallad. Who says he is a believer in the tradition and if he is  a believer in the religious way, that it  would lead him astray in the scientific way? I think he has done wonderful work unto now, but he is careful. All I read from his work points to the North. He will connect the dots at some time. Maybe he has, but since I am not amongst his confidentes, I really dont know what he thinks. Do you Altara?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6410 - April 01, 2019, 03:42 PM

    I was commenting on Myers, he has a student id, so I imagine he is a young guy with a fresh view. (I dont think an established scholar would dare to use Gibson so extensively).

    I wouldnt dare call Jalad a student. He is of course a smart scholar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6411 - April 01, 2019, 10:29 PM

    I wouldn't underestimate Jallad.


    I do not underestimate him. I just say that one is always victim of an ideology, one way or another, when one does not remember to never have had  it. Or to be able to take distance from it. Jallad is not alone in this case. It is the main danger for all scholars (including myself of course...). It is the Gallez's case, Gibson's case, etc. Jallad said he was hoping to find inscription of "Muhammad" and that he was sure that he will find them in the peninsula. It was in an interview on the web, I did not keep the stuff.
    Quote
    Who says he is a believer in the tradition and if he is  a believer in the religious way, that it  would lead him astray in the scientific way?

     

    He says he's a Muslim. A Muslim cannot question Ibn Ishaq as this one gives to him the explication of the existence of the Quranic text from the peninsula. Like a Christian cannot question the resurrection of Jesus. The only difference, is that what Ibn Ishaq recounts is falsifiable and the resurrection of Jesus is not. And this falsifiable stuff from Ibn Ishaq et al. it turns out to be historically non validated.

    Quote
    I think he has done wonderful work unto now, but he is careful. All I read from his work points to the North. He will connect the dots at some time.


    He won't. Because, there are no dots. It is worst to believe Ibn Ishaq for a mind than to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. What Ibn Ishaq recounts is falsifiable therefore you can hope connect the dots. The resurrection of Jesus, there are not dots to connect.

    Quote
    I really dont know what he thinks. Do you Altara?


    Only what I read on the web, and that I did not keep.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6412 - April 02, 2019, 06:19 AM


    .....He says he's a Muslim...... A Muslim cannot question Ibn Ishaq as this one gives to him the explication of the existence of the Quranic text from the peninsula. Like a Christian cannot question the resurrection of Jesus. The only difference, is that what Ibn Ishaq recounts is falsifiable and the resurrection of Jesus is not. And this falsifiable stuff from Ibn Ishaq et al. it turns out to be historically non validated.

    .................

    sorry I disagree with you on that .,  in fact I would consider other way around., 

    A Muslim who can not question Ibn Ishaq stories is NOT a Muslim


      He .. Mr. He ........ being a scholar(((IF HE THINKS HE IS}))   it is time for him to move away from his father's   ideology  and move away from his own bias that was built in to him when he grew up in Kuwait...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6413 - April 03, 2019, 07:20 AM

    Nevo Crossroads to Islam Azaiez's Review (https://www.deepl.com/) yawn...

    Prometheus Books, New York publishing house known for the publication of critical studies
    on the genesis of Islam, in particular through Ibn's impulse Warrāq, proposes with Crossroads
    to Islam a non-conformist work based on the work of Israeli archaeologist Yehuda D. Nevo.
    Written by his assistant Judith Koren after the death premature, this book develops a thesis
    radical: the one that the birth of Islam as it was appears in Arab and Islamic sources is not
    than pure fiction. As part of a process of historical revisionism, the authors put back into
    causes the existence of Muḥammad and the historical reality of the Arab conquest. According to them, Islam as religion only appeared under the impetus of the late arrival of the first Arab leaders at the end of the the sixth century of the Christian era. The demonstration is organized in three parts. A first chapter is devoted to the situation of the Byzantine Empire within its borders from the 5th to the 6th century. The following section describes the seizure of power and the birth of an Arab State in Following the collapse and withdrawal of the Byzantines from their eastern regions. Finally, a final analysis is dedicated to the birth of the Islamic religion which follows the creation of an Arab state.
    Entitled "The Background", Chapter I endeavours to present the political and military strategies that to the decisions of the Byzantine authorities.
    These companies are demonstrating a willingness to change their relations with the indigenous people of the eastern part  of the Empire (currently Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Palestinian Territories and Western Syria). Their objective is thus to let these foreign populations to govern themselves. This decision results in two major difficulties: in its disengagement,
    how to control the wealth produced and the wealth produced that pass through these territories? And how do you do that? conduct a political and administrative withdrawal without create possible areas that could in the future threaten the Byzantine Empire? Faced with these problems three strategies were considered:
    1. Divide these regions into multiple small kingdoms
    who would be under the supervision of tribal chiefs
    mutually hostile to each other;
    2. Entrust these political entities to a tribal elite
    who became a client of the Byzantine Empire;

    3. Administratively abandon these regions
    without proclaiming it. It is this last option that was
    chosen by the Byzantine authorities.
    Between the fifteenth and twelfth centuries, faithful to this strategy
    of voluntary disengagement, Byzantium goes on the
    field :
    1. Replace your regular armies with
    Local Arabs who defend borders and become
    as well as federated (foederati). Thereafter, their
    jurisdiction expands with the levying of a tax
    annual; thus, from the beginning of the century, the populations are
    regularly taxed by Arabs;
    2. Continue its withdrawal from these regions with the
    dismantling of the ghassanid kingdom divided into
    fifteen tribes and with the Persian invasions that reveal
    the inability of the Byzantines to defend their provinces
    despite Heraclius' counter-offensive;
    3. Promote the autonomy of political elites
    and local clergy. Byzantium facilitates conflict
    and religious persecutions to disengage from
    these regions ;
    4. Moving Arab tribes from the periphery
    from the Byzantine Eastern kingdoms to the heart of the regions of Šām.
    Chapter II, entitled "The Takeover and the the
    Rise of the Arab State", is based on a reading
    criticism of internal and external (Islamic) sources
    and non-Islamic) in order to demonstrate that no
    proof of a planned Arab invasion is not
    proven. According to the authors, around 630, in the regions previously indicated at Šām, two coexist types of populations: one sedentary, Christian and Arabic, assimilated to Byzantine culture, and the other, nomadic and semi-nomadic, made up of federated soldiers in Byzantium and monitoring the files.  The latter will gradually levy taxes no longer for the Empire but for their own benefit. The period following, until the beginning of the eighth century, did not provides no evidence of Arab invasions. There is no great battle proven in Syriac literature and Greek. It is evidence, according to the authors, that there has been no Arab invasion, the event on oldest related being the war between ʿAlī and Muʿāwiya in 657. Another proof is the development of of a currency, first of all of the type Arab-Byzantine, then only Arabic. This evolution marks the consolidation of Arab power first registering in a limited area, from Baysān in Homs, then over a vast region including Muʿāwiya became the leader after the battle of Ṣiffīn, asserting himself then as the first Arab leader. At the end of the In the sixth century, the withdrawal of the Byzantine presence is total. This departure leaves a huge territory struggling with upheavals that result in:
    1. Internal struggles maintained by the vacuum left by the Byzantines. The cities of Syria and the North of Palestine issue their own currency. The elders Arab federated states continue to collect tributes, but this time in their own name. This levy is accompanied by war between tribal leaders;
    2. The consolidation of the power of Muʿāwiya which takes control of the regions around Damascus;
    3. This period ended with the triumph of Muʿāwiya on his opponents at the battle of Ṣiffīn in
    657 and the establishment of its leadership in the region, then Egypt and Iraq. This established pre-eminence of sovereignty Arabic on the Šām region does not imply a break with the Byzantine entity. If Muʿāwiya governs on a tribal-type organization where it would be in a way a feudal lord, there remains none no less than this geographical area trades with Byzantium and is subject to its cultural influence as as evidenced by the Byzantine architecture of the Dome of the Rock.
    These few considerations lead the authors to say that the new Arab State is in fact a client State
    who pays tribute to Byzantium despite the reforms of the currency of ʿAbd al Mālik abolishing
    the Byzantine influence.

    Chapter III, entitled "The Arab Religion",
    infers that Islam as a religion succeeds birth
    of an Arab state, but does not precede it. This
    belief stems from the unusual encounter of three
    influences that will come together:
    1. An indeterminate monotheism that rests on
    only on the belief in a higher God: Allāh. The first mention of a prophet named Muḥammad dates back to 730 under the reign of Hišām ; 2. An abrahamism from Christian sources
    (Sozomenus and Sebéos) inform us that this is of an ismaili monotheism. The disciples of this
    belief seem to prefer a life at the borders eastern (southwestern Negev, northern Gaza);
    3. A Judeo-Christianity that recognizes Jesus as a prophet and whose message would have been betrayed by Paul and his disciples. The knowledge of this current religious is known by the homilies of the pseudo-Clement in the 15th century. Similarities with Islam are many: prayer towards Jerusalem, negation of the crucifixion, high esteem of the language (original: Hebrew), belief in the corruption of the previous message (Pauline Christianity), emphasis in accordance with the law (circumcision and Sabbath), recognition of the prophets of the Tanakh. These three currents will meet in a political and administrative context framed by three protagonists: a Christian urban elite, a Christian urban elite Arab urban leaders who have embraced this form
    basic monotheism and an Arab population newly arrived pagan. At the end of the 17th century,
    the official religion with an Arab national prophet
    is proclaimed. The late appearance of the mention
    of "Muḥammad" is explained by the authors as follows
    the need to compensate for the absence of genealogy
    prestigious on the Arab side. ʿAbd al Mālik would thus have
    decided to create a national prophet. The authors
    justify their assertion by an analysis of the name
    of "Muḥammad". It would be ʿAbd al Mālik that would have
    passes this epithet designating an attribute of the
    a messenger with a name for the prophet of Islam.
    After 691 and through the Marwanid dynasty, politics
    is to integrate religious formulas who name the prophet of Islam. The State also decides to dissociate itself from the Christian religion.
    The Dome of the Rock is a privileged witness of this divorce.
    The work is strongly influenced - without reality critical distance - through a "hypercritical" school of thought "carried by some of the great names in Islamology contemporary such as John Wansbrough, Patricia Crone and Fred Donner. The latter have in common a reading that challenges historiography classic of the beginnings of Islam and proposes through
    literary analyses or external references to Islamic tradition (Syriac and Greek sources)
    to reconstruct the first centuries of the Muslim religion. Like them, Nevo and Koren argue that
    the cradle of Islam is to be located outside Arabia and question the very existence of Mohammed.
    The Koran and the religion that will be called Islam are the products of a long history that is born of the influence of exogenous elements: Jewish Christian sects in particular (see John Wansbrough's book, The Sectarian Environment). Although an important annex provides
    reproductions of epigraphic texts from the desert of the Negev, this type of document does not occupy the task of significant place in the authors' demonstration. Indeed, they only speak of epigraphy at pp. 69, 197-200, 273-274. In this case, the considerations of a numismatic nature are much more present.
    This reduced place of epigraphy is all the more important more embarrassing than it actually underlies the vision that Nevo of the birth of the Islamic religion. That's the one distinction between three types of epigraphic texts in the Neguev - pre-muḥammadiens texts where
    does not show the name of Muḥammad but only the divinity Allāh, texts muḥammadiens,
    Islamic texts - which allows him to build his whole speech on the history of the genesis of Islam.
    This religion is said to have been born of a confused belief of monotheistic nature around a divinity "Allāh" that would have evolved. Following a political decision and religious authorities, a figure of the Arab authorities prophetic - Muḥammad - would have been created in the image
    of the Old Testament prophets. Finally, at the following contacts with Jewish-Christian sects,
    institutional Islam has emerged. These three phases precisely match the classification
    of the registrations. We then perceive the weakness, even the inanity, of such an approach that does not avoid, between others, three methodological pitfalls:
    1. It extrapolates results that are derived from a limited geographical area (the Negev);
    2. It eliminates Arab and Islamic sources, considering them not very credible, but accepting other sources exogenous substances that could be the subject of the same discredit. Critical analysis is sorely lacking in scientific justification; 3. It neglects the epigraphic discoveries made
    in other geographical areas, in particular in the Arabian Peninsula. We will report to to the work of Saʿd b. ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz al-Rašīd, Kitabāt islāmiyya min Makka al-mukarrama, Riyadh 1995. The
    Islamic Awareness website reproduces some pages suggestive of this research  http://www.islamicawareness. org/History/Islam/Islam/Inscriptions/). Despite the somewhat outrageous nature of his main thesis, this revisionist approach to question, at new cost, some of the historical facts established too often on a reading servile from Arab and Islamic sources. It allows you to also to draw attention to the need to take into account external sources (Syriacs
    in particular) to try to write the history of the first centuries of Islam. But, we can't follow the
    authors in their reasoning for the reasons given higher up. In the future, we may wish to
    an exhaustive study of Koranic inscriptions (datable) engraved on the stone throughout the
    Near East. We might end up with a very suggestive mapping of the spread of Islam in the early centuries.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6414 - April 03, 2019, 07:44 AM

    On the Hijra calendar:


    I am reading this interesting Hansen article (German astronomer). He claims that  the date 9.4.631 (date of introduction of new Arab calendar according to tradition- 10 AH) corresponds with "new light" of moon above last showing of pleiades witch normally should be in spring equinox month (was intercalation method) but clearly WRONG (month for spring would start too late). That would be the event setting in motion the new lunar calendar (before arabs had the  luni-solar calendar) referred to in 9:36 (the nasi verses) and would also be the situation described in 54:1 (the split moon or month). https://www.academia.edu/34865188/%C3%84ren_und_Astronomie_im_7._Jhd._In_Astronomie_im_Ostseeraum_Astronomy_in_the_Baltic._Nuncius_Hamburgensis_Band_38_Hg._Gudrun_Wolfschmidt._Hamburg_tradition_2018_S._124-129._Digital_version_see_web-link_in_the_print_edition_and_link_here

    From the Gadara inscription (bathhouse Greek) and the Egyptian papyrus 22, Hansen calculates that indeed, from 9.4.631, the lunar calendar was used. Showing thus that from very early date the Arabs had their own system. He sees this as proof of (part) veracity of religious tradition. I personally think this deduction goes too far. I think his finding (link pleiades-moon- 9.4.631), shows indeed that a closed group of "illuminati" had been active on the Quranic front and had a very specific ideology worked out in the Quran and also outside. The "illuminati" were powerful enough to push through this new totally inadequate calendar for ideological crazy reasons.

    Altara, am I starting to sound more like you?  Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6415 - April 03, 2019, 09:12 AM

    Nevo Crossroads to Islam Azaiez's Review (https://www.deepl.com/) yawn...

    ..............a Christian urban elite, a Christian urban elite Arab urban leaders who have embraced this form  basic monotheism and an Arab population newly arrived pagan. At the end of the 17th century, the official religion with an Arab national prophet is proclaimed. The late appearance of the mention  of "Muḥammad" is explained by the authors as follows the need to compensate for the absence of genealogy prestigious on the Arab side. ʿAbd al Mālik would thus have decided to create a national prophet.  .........

    i guess that should be................ At the end of the 7th century..................

    http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2004/2004-02-33.html    Colin Wells on that book "Yehuda D. Nevo, Judith Koren, Crossroads to Islam: The Origins of the Arab Religion and the Arab State"

    Quote
    ....................Radical revisionism can be helpful even when it's unsound, if it induces scholars to reassess their comfortable assumptions about the evidence and arguments of a traditional interpretation. To the same degree as the subject matter itself, this sort of benefit extends to society and posterity beyond the academic world. As with Holocaust revisionism, for example, when the events at issue are of great importance, everyone gains from having the evidence, and arguments emerge strengthened and sharpened. (Or overturned, but then we're talking of woolly, not cogent, revisionism.) In reading Crossroads to Islam, however, I began to suspect that there must be a usefulness threshold somewhere. If so, then surely this book fails to cross it. Crossroads to Islam is so unsound -- so uninformed in its welter of detail, so specious in the contrivance of its arguments, and so tendentious in its barely hidden agenda -- that it's hard to imagine anyone taking it seriously enough to reassess anything, except possibly his or her decision to pick it up in the first place.

          But then I would likely have thought the same thing of any single work of Holocaust revisionism,         so perhaps Crossroads to Islam is worth at least our brief attention. There are some parallels, since like Holocaust deniers the authors don't merely question some aspects of the consensus view, they reject it wholesale. To wit, Crossroads to Islam argues that the rise of Islam as we currently understand it never happened: Muhammad did not exist as a historical person, there were no early Arab conquests, and Islam itself did not begin to take shape until Arab rulers essentially invented it starting in the 690s -- some seven decades after the traditional account has Muhammad unifying Arabia under Islam's banner...............[/quote[



    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6416 - April 03, 2019, 10:58 AM

    On the Hijra calendar:



    I haven't read this article but I will, thanks Mundi.

    The real question however is to see if, when you have dates using the "hijra" calendar and other calendars, the 2 do tie up with what we expect the hijra dating to be. In other words, does this calendar really start on july 19th, 622 ?

    That is a topic on my list but I didn't find the time.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6417 - April 03, 2019, 11:31 AM

    Calendar:

    What Hansen says is that the dates tie up with 9.4.631. From there on its a lunar calendar. What happens before is not clear.. The tradition itself says that before luni-solar was used or is at best not clear. But this 9.4.631 corresponds with an astronomical phenomenon that we are SURE occured. So no speculation on that. Was this phenomenon important to the arab "illuminati"? Hansen thinks it was since according to him it derives from Babylonian calendar and was also important to Jews before they changed.

    All that Hansen portrays around this astronomical given of 9.4.631 is not accurate imo. He sees links with the tradition where there are none. But having an objective start of the calendar, based on an astronomical phenomenon seems very interesting and important to me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6418 - April 03, 2019, 11:37 AM

    Quote
    It neglects the epigraphic discoveries made in other geographical areas, in particular in the Arabian Peninsula. We will report to the work of Saʿd b. ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz al-Rašīd, Kitabāt islāmiyya min Makka al-mukarrama, Riyadh 1995.


    Finally, someone refers to this work and ones similar to it. I mention this particular (I think) some time ago or another along the lines of it documenting the epigraphic findings in the region of Makkah. And yet, assuming these findings are indeed early, it is surprising that Makkah did not exist at the time of the conquests. No one has referred to this work and its findings. An epigraphist recommended me this work and others as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6419 - April 03, 2019, 11:38 AM

    My understanding is that the hijri calendar is early and consistent with what we know from the later sources.
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