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Qur'anic studies today
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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 268419 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5850 - March 07, 2019, 10:48 PM

    I am always impressed by the quality and creativeness of the pseudonyms used by various scholars in this field: Christoph Luxenberg, Florence Mraizika, Leila Qadr, and Mavro di Mezzomorto. Any suggestions for a good pseudonym for me when I publish my own amateur booklet, haha.  


    Abu al-Qasim  whistling2 whistling2 whistling2 whistling2
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5851 - March 07, 2019, 10:55 PM

    Changing thesis of Gallez:

    Who will you ask Mhaggraye?

    I have a vague idea of what Gallez' thesis is. And having a manuscript mentioning jesus the son without Mary doesnt conflict with that vague idea.

    But let's see what Mahgraye gets as an answer !
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5852 - March 07, 2019, 10:56 PM

    In the meantime, dear Mundi, please think of a good pseudonym. Marc S proposed Abu l-Qasim, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5853 - March 07, 2019, 10:57 PM

    Abu al-Qasim  whistling2 whistling2 whistling2 whistling2


    Haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5854 - March 07, 2019, 11:02 PM

    Pseudonym:

    Abu l-Qasim: that is flattering (looked him up on wiki). Maybe Marc knows you well!  Afro

    I would stick with the one you have now. Fits very well. There is a mystery around you, just like we dont know anything about who these Mahgrayens really were.  Your reactions to some subjects are often surprising. Never boring!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5855 - March 07, 2019, 11:14 PM

    I am always impressed by the quality and creativeness of the pseudonyms used by various scholars in this field: Christoph Luxenberg, Florence Mraizika, Leila Qadr, and Mavro di Mezzomorto. Any suggestions for a good pseudonym for me when I publish my own amateur booklet, haha.  

    well   what is the big deal.................. everyone including all of you ,   me, ..... "Muhammad" ... has pseudonyms in Islam . Apart   from wondering pseudonyms in Islam,  I always wondered origins of  Quran  and when it became present book . And I always wondered  how so-called  Islamic scriptures added lots of controls  on women folks,,, when the story Prophet Muhammad and   his Marriage to Khadija was prominently told to children  And on t of that     such wonderful  stories  are NOT mentioned in Quran...[/u]

    let me watch this .....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY0BPRczvNY


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5856 - March 07, 2019, 11:20 PM

    They do not consider the Quran to be the only source of revelation and history. The hadith, sira, tafsir, are equally authoritative. Besides, the Quran does not read like history to begin with So not finding any mention of Muhammad's marriage to Khadija is not surprising.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5857 - March 07, 2019, 11:29 PM

    Mohammed and Khadija:

    I see a parallel with Macron and Brigitte.

    I'm not saying that Khadija really existed but at the time when she was levitated into islamic history, such couples  also existed : older woman of the world educates young man to greatness

    Timeless combination
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5858 - March 07, 2019, 11:29 PM

    Quote
    Abu l-Qasim: that is flattering (looked him up on wiki).


    That was Muhammad's title. An honor, but I do not want to carry such a name of respect. Uforutenaly, his son, al-Qasim, died. His other son, Ibrahim, died as well. Some speculate that he married many women with the hope of having a son. Tragic.

    Quote
    Maybe Marc knows you well!  Afro


    Oh! I don't know, haha. Any idea?

    Quote
    I would stick with the one you have now. Fits very well. There is a mystery around you, just like we dont know anything about who these Mahgrayens really were.  Your reactions to some subjects are often surprising. Never boring!


    Haha. Thanks. Means a lot coming from you. Any example of a surprising take of mine?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5859 - March 07, 2019, 11:32 PM

    Mag,

    I thought it was this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Zahrawi

    Like I said before, I'm only at the beginning of the path of knowledge...

    Surprise: the apostate reaction of a few days ago. Or was that humor?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5860 - March 07, 2019, 11:34 PM

    Quote

     

    I see.

    Quote
    Like I said before, I'm only at the beginning of the path of knowledge...


    Same here, but you are still knowledgeable.

    Quote
    Surprise: the apostate reaction of a few days ago. Or was that humor?


    What do you mean?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5861 - March 08, 2019, 12:40 AM

    I posted it on page 194 here  Wink


    Another one!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q89i_68DrHg&list=PLwE8rbXkG_NN15IiN8hfGy74K2bc1PHwk


    The Gallez galaxy...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5862 - March 08, 2019, 03:21 AM

    Hmm good stuff .. good discussion here on Muhammad & Khadija....  let me put the together yeezevee says
    well   what is the big deal.................. everyone including all of you ,   me, ..... "Muhammad"  has pseudonyms in Islam . ... Apart   from wondering pseudonyms in Islam, ............... the story Prophet Muhammad and   his Marriage to Khadija was prominently told to children  is also wonderful... but alas     such wonderful  stories  are NOT mentioned in Quran...[/u].................


    Mahgraye MAKES QUESTIONABLE COMMENT ..   so let me delete a word from it
    They do not consider the Quran to be the only source of revelation and history. The hadith, sira, tafsir, are equally authoritative. Besides, the Quran does not read like history to begin with So not finding any mention of Muhammad's marriage to Khadija is not surprising.

     and mundi says 
    Mohammed and Khadija:

    I see a parallel with Macron and Brigitte.

    I'm not saying that Khadija really existed but at the time when she was levitated into islamic history, such couples  also existed : older woman of the world educates young man to greatness

    Timeless combination

     and Mahgraye  responds with
    That was Muhammad's title.    An honor, but I do not want to carry such a name of respect. Uforutenaly, his son, al-Qasim, died. His other son, Ibrahim, died as well. Some speculate that he married many women with the hope of having a son. Tragic...........

     ********************************************************************************
    well I deleted questionable words from  Mahgraye posts...

    well dear  Mahgraye  .,  Muhammad itself is a title   and I don'think "Abu l-Qasim"  is a title ....

    and i don't think "hadith, sira, tafsir" and other rituals stories that are added some 100s of years later are as important as Quran..   In fact I say they are full of junk... many Muslim folks and those SO-CALLED NON-MUSLIM ISLAM SCHOLARS do not even read Quran  properly  so why worry about "hadith, sira, tafsir" ??    .. and where did you get this Prophet of Islam had two sons?? al-Qasim and Ibrahim?? which hadith??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5863 - March 08, 2019, 01:32 PM

    Quote
    Mahgraye MAKES QUESTIONABLE COMMENT ..   so let me delete a word from it


    Quote
    and i don't think "hadith, sira, tafsir" and other rituals stories that are added some 100s of years later are as important as Quran..   In fact I say they are full of junk... many Muslim folks and those SO-CALLED NON-MUSLIM ISLAM SCHOLARS do not even read Quran  properly  so why worry about "hadith, sira, tafsir" ??    .. and where did you get this Prophet of Islam had two sons?? al-Qasim and Ibrahim?? which hadith??


    I meant that for the Muslim, the sira, hadith, tafsir are equally authoritative.

    Quote
    well I deleted questionable words from  Mahgraye posts...

    well dear  Mahgraye  .,  Muhammad itself is a title   and I don'think "Abu l-Qasim"  is a title ....


    My words were not questionable. Simply my own opinion. It was not a truth statement. As to Abu l-Qasim, it was Muhammad's kunya, as he is said to have had a son named al-Qasim. Muhammad being a proper name or not is neither here or there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5864 - March 08, 2019, 02:12 PM

    I meant that for the Muslim, the sira, hadith, tafsir are equally authoritative.

    My words were not questionable. Simply my own opinion. It was not a truth statement. As to Abu l-Qasim, it was Muhammad's kunya, as he is said to have had a son named al-Qasim. Muhammad being a proper name or not is neither here or there.

    Oh Ok .,  as long as they are NOT TRUTH"  and it is just personal opinion  that should be all right ., Well you read lot of scholars .. what is your opinion on this publication dear Mahgraye??    this is pubed in Journal of Education and Practice  Vol.8, No.2, 2017


    Mistranslations of the Prophets' Names in the Holy Quran: A  Critical Evaluation of Two Translations by   Izzeddin M. I. Issa  of  Dept. of English & Translation, Jadara University, PO box 733, Irbid, Jordan



    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5865 - March 08, 2019, 02:53 PM

    Altara - You seem to think that Sebeos is a later source than presumed. Can you provide some sources that discuss its dating? And do you think that Sebeos - if  you are right regarding its dating - is not a valuable source anymore for understanding early Islam?


    R. W. Thomson and J. Howard-Johnston, The Armenian History Attributed to Sebeos
    (Liverpool: Liverpool University Press, 1999), 1: 102 f., 2: 249. However, key points of Sebeos’ account, which remains problematic in other important respects too, lead one to doubt the accuracy of such assertions, especially the manner in which this anecdote strongly mirrors the narratives of the Romance of Julian the Apostate that portray the Jews as collaborators with the designs of Rome’s last pagan emperor to rebuild the Jewish temple, ordered by edict in 363 A.D. though never fully realized. See G. J. Reinink, “Ps.-Method us: A Concept of History in Response to the Rise of Islam,” in L. I. Conrad and A. Cameron, eds., The Byzantine and Early Islamic Near East I: Problems in the Literary Source Material, SLAEI 1 (Princeton: Darwin, 1992), 184 f. For an evaluation of the account attributed to Sebeos in general, see Robert Hoyland, “Sebeos, the Jews and the Rise of Islam,” in R. L. Nettler, ed., Medieval and Modern Perspectives on Muslim-Jewish Relations (Luxembourg: Harwood, 1995), 89–102
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5866 - March 08, 2019, 02:54 PM

    Thanks, Altara.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5867 - March 08, 2019, 03:07 PM

    Warning! dear Maghraye I (still) did not read nor the Thomson, nor the Hoyland. It (could) be interesting that you give your opinion about those texts.
    On the other hand I'm searching the Cameron  article: Averil Cameron, “Blaming the Jews: The Seventh-Century Invasions of Palestine in Context,” Travaux et Mémoires (Mélanges Gilbert Dagron) 14 (2002): 57–78. Still did not find it (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5868 - March 08, 2019, 05:25 PM

    Good overview of 7C sources on proto islam from Dye. Saves us from looking them up ourselves!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xErXLJwnVAQ
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5869 - March 08, 2019, 05:52 PM

    R. W. Thomson and J. Howard-Johnston, The Armenian History Attributed to Sebeos
    (Liverpool: Liverpool University Press, 1999), 1: 102 f., 2: 249

    https://erevangala500.com/upload//pdf/1323119797.pdf

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5870 - March 08, 2019, 09:19 PM

    R. W. Thomson and J. Howard-Johnston, The Armenian History Attributed to Sebeos
    (Liverpool: Liverpool University Press, 1999), 1: 102 f., 2: 249

    https://erevangala500.com/upload//pdf/1323119797.pdf




    thank you for that book of  The Armenian History  attributed to Sebeos    dear  Marc....  Did you read through it?  it doesn't look like an objective history  with some logical/rational proofs...to me...  it  sound like Harry potter story  ...  very little about Early  Islam...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5871 - March 08, 2019, 09:27 PM

    Quote
    Warning! dear Maghraye I (still) did not read nor the Thomson, nor the Hoyland. It (could) be interesting that you give your opinion about those texts.
    On the other hand I'm searching the Cameron article: Averil Cameron, “Blaming the Jews: The Seventh-Century Invasions of Palestine in Context,” Travaux et Mémoires (Mélanges Gilbert Dagron) 14 (2002): 57–78. Still did not find it (yawn...)


    I see. No worries, dear Altara. Maybe I will read those article, but I am not sure if I am competent enough to comment on them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5872 - March 08, 2019, 11:34 PM

    K TENESSY - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_ZvvYPosjQ

    K TENESSY - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5PpHyBx-G4&index=3&list=PLkKgfIkIMmUDZN6Sv8wZmzD10gbPugZ5E
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5873 - March 09, 2019, 09:54 AM

    I see. No worries, dear Altara. Maybe I will read those article, but I am not sure if I am competent enough to comment on them.

    no..no...  you are very competent and thorough in your understanding & inquiring  on the  origins of Quran dear Mahgraye So do not doubt your own abilities to comment on any of the  publications/blogs/books  etc... etc ...

    but but a better place for this post of yours


    with you tubes is  in that  akay folder under   HIS RECENT SILLY POST  and I am just curious to know by chance you are acquainted  or personally know   Sami Aldeeb

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5874 - March 09, 2019, 01:21 PM

    https://www.academia.edu/12627875/The_Architecture_of_Allegiance_in_Early_Islamic_Late_Antiquity_The_Accession_of_Mu_awiya_in_Jerusalem_ca._661_CE
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5875 - March 09, 2019, 01:27 PM

    Marc S throws a edited  book  on to the fokde
    let me rewrite his post with its contents

    Court Ceremonies and Rituals of Power in Byzantium and the Medieval Mediterranean Comparative Perspectives Edited by  Alexander Beihammer.,  Stavroula Constantinou  and Maria Parani .. 2013.


     
    Quote
    Comparative Approaches to the Ritual World of the Medieval Mediterranean   by Alexander Beihammer

     
    PART ONE  RITUALS AND THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE ROMAN WORLD. Imperial Birthday Rituals in Late Antiquity ... by .Maria Kantirea
     
     Phthonos  : A Pagan Relic in Byzantine Imperial  Acclamations? ....... by..Martin Hinterberger

    Ritualized Encounters: Late Roman Diplomacy and the Barbarians, Fifth–Sixth Century .....by Walter Pohl

      The Architecture of Allegiance in Early Islamic Late Antiquity: The Accession of Muāwiya in Jerusalem, ca. 661 CE ..... by Andrew Marsham


    PART TWO

    SUCCESSION PROCEDURES AND THEIR RITUAL ARTICULATIONS. Describing Rituals of Succession and the Legitimation of Kingship in the West, ca. 1000–ca. 1150 .....by  Björn Weiler

    Ritual and Reality: The Bayʿa Process in Eleventh- and Twelfth-Century Islamic Courts ....by  Eric J. Hanney


    well  highlighted one appears to be useful to me...  rest  are irrelevant

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5876 - March 09, 2019, 01:44 PM

    thank you for that book of   The Armenian History  attributed to Sebeos   dear  Marc....  Did you read through it?


    Yes I did.

    Quote
    it doesn't look like an objective history  with some logical/rational proofs...to me.


    History is never objective. Despite the controversy around his author real name, this text is used by scholars.

    Quote
    ..  it  sound like Harry potter story  ...  very little about Early  Islam...


    There is no miracle stories in Sebeos history unlike Harry Potter  and the author, being an Armenian, did focus a lot on Armenia ; therefore, it is of no surprise that early islam mentions are often confused or not much detailed. Another issue is that sometimes the same persons are called under different names so it doesn't help.

    Quote
    very little about Early  Islam...


    Sebeos underline the role of Jews in the emergence of the arabs kingdom so one should ask himself the following questions :

    - is there a kernel of truth here ? I think yes because Jews were involved in the Arab conquests

    - does the author exagerate Jews involvment ? I think yes  ; we know from other sources that the Arab conquests were driven by other motives so, if Jews really incited Arabs to revolt, this was something quite marginal,

    - does the author portray some anti-Jewish feelings ? Yes and no


    Something that also looks weird, from my point of view, is that sometimes it looks like there was some interpolations in the text ; is this due to my paranoia, to the fact the author corrected/inserted other piece of information that he received later of if other people added information after the original text was written, this is hard to say.  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5877 - March 09, 2019, 01:47 PM

    Marc S throws a edited  book  on to the fokde let me rewrite his post with its contents
    well  highlighted one appears to be useful to me...  rest  are irrelevant


    Thanks Yeezevee  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5878 - March 09, 2019, 02:38 PM

    I causally scanned through it I down loaded it  and i will be carefully reading through it dear Marc S...
    Yes I did.

    History is never objective. Despite the controversy around his author real name, this text is used by scholars.

    well if the historians WHO WROTE HISTORY are biased and not objective .. then it is for you and  so-called scholars  to carefully scrutinize it .,   use the brain and correct  that corrupted/biased history dear  Marc S.,  Some times it may not be possible because evidence is eroded by some say floods or earth quakes.. other wise it is possible..

    Quote
    There is no miracle stories in Sebeos history unlike Harry Potter  

    that tells me either you have not read it carefully or may  be  I have not read it as I read it casually..   or I am confused as I read tons of other stuff....Should I give you page number and harry potter type content from it??[/i]

    Quote
    and the author, being an Armenian, did focus a lot on Armenia ; therefore, it is of no surprise that early islam mentions are often confused or not much detailed. Another issue is that sometimes the same persons are called under different names so it doesn't help.

     Oh I agree with that and that is the reason to all who comes up with  Sebos writing as early history of Islam .,  I say to them .TAKE A HIKE ON TO A MOUNTAIN OR RIDE A CANADIAN FLYING  DUCK ......instead of inquiring in to history of early faiths...  .. that is a better thing to do with their time..

    Quote
    Sebeos underline the role of Jews in the emergence of the arabs kingdom so one should ask himself the following questions :

      yes I agree with that ..  Asking questions is concerned.,   that goes to Sebeos   and TO ALL OTHER HISTORIANS who penned /fooled by so-called early Islamic history stories
    Quote
    - is there a kernel of truth here ? I think yes because Jews were involved in the Arab conquests

    unless you give me the year of that conquest .. I would question such assumptions  without proper dates..  was it during Muhammad Alleged Prophet of Islam time??   during his life time??   OTHERWISE   I SAY NOooooo  JEWISH FOLKS  WERE NOT INVOLVED....

    Quote
    - does the author exagerate Jews involvment ? I think yes  ; we know from other sources that the Arab conquests were driven by other motives so, if Jews really incited Arabs to revolt, this was something quite marginal,

    AGain dates are necessary otherwise it is a hand waving statement...You say you think "yes".. I say I think "NO..."

    Quote
    - does the author portray some anti-Jewish feelings ? Yes and no

    Oh THAT IS IN-BUILT(the anti Jewish feelings) IN TO ALL THE EARLY CHRISTIAN HISTORIANS as well as to writers from some sects of Christian and Jewish  who converted to Islam

    Quote
    Something that also looks weird, from my point of view, is that sometimes it looks like there was some interpolations in the text ; is this due to my paranoia, to the fact the author corrected/inserted other piece of information that he received later of if other people added information after the original text was written, this is hard to say.  

    when you look at it carefully lot more will look weird dear Marc ..S..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5879 - March 09, 2019, 02:42 PM


    Sebeos underline the role of Jews in the emergence of the arabs kingdom so one should ask himself the following questions :

    - is there a kernel of truth here ? I think yes because Jews were involved in the Arab conquests


    Yes the Arab "conquest", the building of the House in the Mount (by Arabs) and what is dealing with politics after the "conquest" nothing else. In fact all that is validated by (true) 7th. c sources which recounts more or less the same thing : no Jews involved in the "conquest". BUT, one reminds that the event is a messianic one (view from Jews own messianic mythology) as they are liberated from the Romans.

    Quote
    - does the author exaggerate Jews involvement ? I think yes  ; we know from other sources that the Arab conquests were driven by other motives so, if Jews really incited Arabs to revolt, this was something quite marginal,


    The author (of the 8th c., not 640) has a thesis he wants to expose and he retro projects it in 640 :  Jews involvement in the Arabs indoctrination and Jews decision and participation in the "conquest". It is the Gallez thesis where Jews are replaced by his "Judaeo-Nazarenes".
    This  8th c., (not 640) author's thesis is coherent, rational and logic view the context of the 8th c., it would have been curious if it was not stated. John and the Amir is in the same vein : insisting in the religious role of the Jews besides the Arabs, to show the origin of the issue for Christianity : the Jews.  John and the Amir attests of the very knowledge of the Quranic (and post Quranic topoi)  of the muhajirun about the usages and beliefs of Christianity and shows them to be in the hands of Jews since the beginning (at least 640... since the account is supposed to have taken place at this time).



    Quote
    - does the author portray some anti-Jewish feelings ? Yes and no


    Pointing someone to be responsible of a disaster for oneself, view the long difficult relationships he has with the "someone". One let you decide.
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