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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5520 - February 24, 2019, 11:15 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on February 24, 2019, 01:27 AM
    A misunderstanding, or an alteration of the meaning of the text.


    What is the misunderstanding?
    What is an alteration of the text ?
    Alteration : Which one(s),why, when, who?


    Quote
    The Hebrew Bible is also reproaching a lot of things to Jews ; can one say that it has an anti jewish stance ?


    The difference is that the Hebrew Bible/Septuagint is written for Jewish public.

    Quote
    I still do not get it. Wink


    The hint is in the phrase. I'm sure you can find it.
    You have to find it yourself, it is related to the conquest.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5521 - February 24, 2019, 11:45 AM
    Quote from: mundi on February 24, 2019, 07:15 AM
    Nazareans:

    Jews called Christians nsr in the Babylonian Talmud. Why doesn't that count?


    The Talmud on a few occasions refers to Christians as nōṣrīm. However, a closer reading of the passages—especially the one in the treatise of fasting (the others are of no importance)—reveals that the so-called ‘Christians’ in question are anything but mainstream.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5522 - February 24, 2019, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 24, 2019, 01:34 AM
    Can you please remind us of these sources? Gallez does, however, concede that Christians were called Nazoreans in the very beginning.

    Fundamental article :
    Chr. et Fl. JULLIEN
    Aux frontières de l' iranité : "na1?rayë" et "krïstyonë" des inscriptions du mobad Kirdïr : Enquête littéraire et historique », Numen 49/3, 2002, pp. 282-335

    Fundamental last article  :
    Parole de l 'Orient 43 (2017) 113-136
    Simon BRELAUD - Françoise BRIQUEL CHATONNET
    QUELQUES RÉFLEXIONS SUR LA DÉSIGNATION DES CHRÉTIENS DANS L'INSCRIPTION DU MAGE KIRDÏR ET DANS L'EMPIRE SASSANIDE

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5523 - February 24, 2019, 12:51 PM
    Oh! I have written a rebuttal to these articles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5524 - February 24, 2019, 01:16 PM
    Quote from: Altara on February 24, 2019, 11:15 AM
    What is an alteration of the text ?


    Alteration of the meaning of the text


    Quote
    What is the misunderstanding?
    What is an alteration of the text ?
    Alteration : Which one(s),why, when, who?


    Look at this ; here it could be both. (sorry it is in French) ;

    https://www.lechampdumidrash.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87:a-propos-de-fibres&catid=81&Itemid=483


    Quote
    The difference is that the Hebrew Bible/Septuagint is written for Jewish public.


    Like I said, we don't have the context of those Quranic verses so it could have been texts that were written for Jews in the first place.

    And , sometimes, when you have, you realize it is not adressed to muslims. For example, mention of Allah  turning Jews into apes (2:265 ; 4:163-166) because of their inobservance of sabbath cannot be viewed as anti Jews but it is in islamic commentaries today.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5525 - February 24, 2019, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 24, 2019, 12:51 PM
    Oh! I have written a rebuttal to these articles.


    Would you share it ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5526 - February 24, 2019, 01:29 PM
    Quote
    Would you share it?


    Sure. But it is not completely finished and I have not worked on it for some time. Do you still want me to share it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5527 - February 24, 2019, 01:31 PM
    If you feel comfortable in doing that, yes ; otherwise, if you'd rather wait until it is complete, I'd understand.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5528 - February 24, 2019, 02:21 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 24, 2019, 12:51 PM
    Oh! I have written a rebuttal to these articles.


    For me you have written nothing dear Maghraye...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5529 - February 24, 2019, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on February 24, 2019, 01:16 PM
    Alteration of the meaning of the text
    Look at this ; here it could be both. (sorry it is in French) ;
    https://www.lechampdumidrash.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87:a-propos-de-fibres&catid=81&Itemid=483
    Like I said, we don't have the context of those Quranic verses so it could have been texts that were written for Jews in the first place.


    Your midrash friend does not explain this: 4. And his wife, the wood carrier, Wink

    Jews from where? Thanks to ground what you say with sources, otherwise it worths nothing...

    Quote
    And , sometimes, when you have, you realize it is not addressed to muslims. For example, mention of Allah  turning Jews into apes (2:265 ; 4:163-166) because of their non-observance of sabbath cannot be viewed as anti Jews but it is in islamic commentaries today.


    Why not.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5530 - February 24, 2019, 03:36 PM
    Quote
    Your midrash friend does not explain this: 4. And his wife, the wood carrier, Wink


    The meaning is obvious  Wink

    Quote
    Jews from where? Thanks to ground what you say with sources, otherwise it worths nothing...


    No sources is needed here because it is obvious. I am refering to the Hebrew Bible and Midrash where the Quranic texts were derived from. I will say it again ; by taking those texts but without the context , the Quran makes it difficult to get their original meanings except when we can link them to the original texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5531 - February 24, 2019, 04:08 PM
    1/ Then tell us.
    2/ That's what I thought, you're unable to ground what you say. It has, then, no real value apart your own imagination.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5532 - February 24, 2019, 05:03 PM
    Quote
    1/ Then tell us.


    You need to find it on your own though it is not important.

    Quote
    2/ That's what I thought, you're unable to ground what you say. It has, then, no real value apart your own imagination.

    Could you clarify what you call my imagination meaning

    a) You think Quran does provide a clear context then and each quranic verse can be explained with the Quran alone?
    b) You think Quranic texts have nothing to do with Biblical, Talmudic or Midrashic texts then ?

    Maybe you thought I said the Quran was written for Jews ; I didn't say that but that it includes texts written for Jews by Jews for a big chunk (the link to the Bible, Talmud, Midrash is a known fact). Therefore, to say the Quran is anti-jewish is just a reflexion of the Mecca/Zam Zam/Medina framework.

    By the way can you provide the sources that say that the leaders of the arab army had Quranic texts with them in the 630's  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5533 - February 24, 2019, 05:34 PM
    Quote from: Altara on February 24, 2019, 02:21 PM
    For me, you have written nothing dear Maghraye...


    Apologies. Perhaps the way I put it was pretentious and misleading, implying that I myself had written something. True, I have not written anything, at least nothing significant. All I can say is that the publications that you cited are not as decisive as one might think. Based on a new publication by François de Blois—which is the basis of the insignificant text I put together—there are reasons to doubt the soundness of the proposed reading in the publications you cited in light of prior probability, considering the religious landscape of the Sasanian empire in the third century AD. To summarize, it is not so much what I - Maghraye - wrote, but rather, what I attempted to highlight based on recent findings.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5534 - February 24, 2019, 05:49 PM
    hmm  what is happening here ?  Q&A  session?  .. or ...Q&Q session?
    Quote
    Quote from: Altara on February 24, 2019, 04:08 PM
    1/ Then tell us.
    2/ That's what I thought, you're unable to ground what you say. It has, then, no real value apart your own imagination.


    Mark answers :  Could you clarify what you call my imagination meaning

    a) You think Quran does provide a clear context then and each quranic verse can be explained with the Quran alone?

    b) You think Quranic texts have nothing to do with Biblical, Talmudic or Midrashic texts then ?

    i don'think  that is what Altara saying/..  none of his posts implicate that dear Mark

    anyway i am just curious on your opinions on these guys......Mr. Brown and Mr. Johnson   and what they write   in theses links...

    1. Verses of Violence: Comparing the Bible and the Quran  by  Michael Brown,

    2.    The Quran and the New Testament Bible: A Comparison of Textual Histories by  B A Johnson

    do  you guys think what they write is true history of Quran  origins..??

    Quote from: Marc S on February 24, 2019, 05:03 PM
    You need to find it on your own though it is not important.
    Could you clarify what you call my imagination meaning


    Maybe you thought I said the Quran was written for Jews ; I didn't say that but that it includes texts written for Jews by Jews for a big chunk (the link to the Bible, Talmud, Midrash is a known fact). Therefore, to say the Quran is anti-jewish is just a reflexion of the Mecca/Zam Zam/Medina framework.

    By the way can you provide the sources that say that the leaders of the arab army had Quranic texts with them in the 630's  Wink

    oh... i know  i  know i  know  i  know ..... who wrote Quran 

    guys like  these of that time wrote Quran...

    Quote
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bcLQzCq2So

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et4Adgx3Z0U

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5535 - February 24, 2019, 05:50 PM
    Christian apologists.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5536 - February 24, 2019, 06:05 PM
    Quote
    a) You think Quran does provide a clear context then and each quranic verse can be explained with the Quran alone?


    I think nothing. When it speaks about Abraham, what references (and not "context") it provides?  Bible, Talmud, Midrash. So what?

    Quote
    You think Quranic texts have nothing to do with Biblical, Talmudic or Midrashic texts then ?


    I just said the contrary; the Quranic texts refers to Biblical (including NT and NT apocrypha), Talmudic or Midrashic texts

    Quote
    that it includes texts written for Jews by Jews for a big chunk (the link to the Bible, Talmud, Midrash is a known fact).


    Same question: so what?
    What you draw from this? One still does not know or making sense of what you say...

    Quote
    Therefore, to say the Quran is anti-jewish is just a reflexion  of the Mecca/Zam Zam/Medina framework.


    Whatever it comes from (Jews or not), the more or less anti-jewish stance is factual in the text. There is no need of  the Mecca/Zam Zam/Medina framework to ascertain it.
    Quote
    By the way can you provide the sources that say that the leaders of the arab army had Quranic texts with them in the 630's


    637 attestations of an (only) Arab  building in the Temple Mount.  Wink. I repeat again (yawn...) that the Jews are the objective allies of the Arabs since they get rid of the Romans in Jerusalem by them. But they are not at the origins of the Arabs in war as it exists a totally secular origins (sourced)  to this.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5537 - February 24, 2019, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 24, 2019, 05:34 PM
    Apologies. Perhaps the way I put it was pretentious and misleading, implying that I myself had written something. True, I have not written anything, at least nothing significant. All I can say is that the publications that you cited are not as decisive as one might think. Based on a new publication by François de Blois—which is the basis of the insignificant text I put together—there are reasons to doubt the soundness of the proposed reading in the publications you cited in light of prior probability, considering the religious landscape of the Sasanian empire in the third century AD. To summarize, it is not so much what I - Maghraye - wrote, but rather, what I attempted to highlight based on recent findings.


    Can you provide the link to the recent de Blois text about the inscription of Kirdir?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5538 - February 24, 2019, 06:21 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 24, 2019, 05:34 PM
    Apologies. Perhaps the way I put it was pretentious and misleading, implying that I myself had written something. True, I have not written anything, at least nothing significant. All I can say is that the publications that you cited are not as decisive as one might think. Based on a new publication by François de Blois—which is the basis of the insignificant text I put together—there are reasons to doubt the soundness of the proposed reading in the publications you cited in light of prior probability, considering the religious landscape of the Sasanian empire in the third century AD. To summarize, it is not so much what I - Maghraye - wrote, but rather, what I attempted to highlight based on recent findings.


    So there is no rebuttal from you. I'm still waiting the de Blois one (that I never heard of...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5539 - February 24, 2019, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 24, 2019, 05:50 PM
    Christian apologists.

    Well  no..  Mahgraye  ..   They are Christian story tellers   ..........but i actually  wonder the  Role of People from Persia who knew bible stories .. specially Jews & Christians of that time living in Persia (630 to 700) who may have converted in to Islam  in putting some of these Quran texts/chapters  together...

    let  me read some stuff on  Islam..Persia..Romans...Jerusalem....

    Quote
    http://www.alsadiqin.org/history/The%20Persian%20conquest%20of%20Jerusalem%20in%20614CE%20compared%20with%20Islamic%20conquest%20of%20638CE.pdf
    https://www.academia.edu/28561291/The_concept_of_Iran_in_Zoroastrian_and_other_traditions
    https://www.milwaukee-montessori.org/Files/Montessori/Students/Persia-History/ArabConquestofPersiaWebsite.pdf
    http://www.ciando.com/img/books/extract/3700183194_lp.pdf


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5540 - February 24, 2019, 06:33 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 24, 2019, 05:49 PM

    anyway i am just curious on your opinions on these guys......Mr. Brown and Mr. Johnson   and what they write   in theses links...



    do  you guys think what they write is true history of Quran  origins..??
    oh... i know  i  know i  know  i  know ..... who wrote Quran 



    Looks more like inter-religious debates rather than historical discussions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5541 - February 24, 2019, 06:50 PM
    Quote
    So there is no rebuttal from you.


    No, there is a rebuttal, right here on my computer. I can paste it here, but as I told Marc S, it is not finished. I only became hesitant because you said that I had not written anything. And to be honest, I was not really sure as to what you meant.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5542 - February 24, 2019, 06:52 PM
    Quote from: Altara on February 24, 2019, 06:05 PM

    What you draw from this? One still does not know or making sense of what you say...


    This is what I draw.

    Therefore, to say the Quran is anti-jewish is just a reflexion  of the Mecca/Zam Zam/Medina framework.

    You should read "The Itinerary of Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela,"

    Quote
    637 attestations of an (only) Arab  building in the Temple Mount.  Wink.


    No this is not a source.

    A source state something , e.g. Anastasius of Sinai talk about Arabs as the new Jews.
    The understanding of what he means is an interpretation because he doesn't give a clear context, and this is what you did with your conclusion of the Arab building on the Temple Mount. You have zero source but you give an explanation. You might be right or you might be wrong, who knows.

    Quote
    I repeat again (yawn...) that the Jews are the objective allies of the Arabs since they get rid of the Romans in Jerusalem by them. But they are not at the origins of the Arabs in war as it exists a totally secular origins (sourced)  to this.


    I agree with that and never said the opposite but you didn't read me because of your assumption on the house of prayer on the Temple Mount  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5543 - February 24, 2019, 06:52 PM
    Jesus in the Quran (for the French speakers):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APxg0Q4EuXk
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5544 - February 24, 2019, 06:54 PM
    Mahgraye,

    Why not post your rebuttal here? Then maybe I can follow what this convo is all about. The bits and pieces btw Altara and Marc are confusing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5545 - February 24, 2019, 06:57 PM
    Quote from: Altara on February 24, 2019, 06:05 PM
    But they are not at the origins of the Arabs in war as it exists a totally secular origins (sourced)  to this.



    Would you agree that the origins of the Arab wars are :

    - in the West as described in Nevo/Koren book Crossroads to Islam ?
    - in the East as described in P. Pourshariati The fall of the Sassanian Empire ? I know you put a lot of emphasis on the battle of Dhi- Qar ; I personally think that its highlight in arab sources is a retro-projection to the past to bring coherence to an Arab identity that didn't exist at the time but who knows.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5546 - February 24, 2019, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 24, 2019, 06:26 PM
    Well  no..  Mahgraye  ..   They are Christian story tellers   ..........but i actually  wonder the  Role of People from Persia who knew bible stories .. specially Jews & Christians of that time living in Persia (630 to 700)   in putting thess Quran texts together...


    You should read this book and the introduction by Volker Popp ; an update was made in Early Islam : a reconstruction based on contemporary sources ; I don't agree with everything but this is a must read but not available on the internet as far as I know.

    http://benjamin.lisan.free.fr/jardin.secret/EcritsPolitiquesetPhilosophiques/SurIslam/livres/The-Hidden-Origins-of-Islam-New-Research-into-Its-Early-History_Karl-Heinz-Ohlig_Gerd-R-Puin.pdf

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5547 - February 24, 2019, 07:03 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 24, 2019, 06:52 PM
    Jesus in the Quran (for the French speakers):



    It seems we are all French speakers here apart from Yeezevee  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5548 - February 24, 2019, 07:08 PM
    Quote
    Why not post your rebuttal here? Then maybe I can follow what this convo is all about. The bits and pieces btw Altara and Marc are confusing.


    To be honest with you, Mundi, I am equally lost in this conversation. Altara and Marc S have their own thing going on. As to my difference of opinion with Altara, and I think Marc S disagrees with him, too, then it is in regards to the question if mainstream Christians were ever designated as Nazoreans. The crucial piece of evidence here is the three contemporary Middle-Persian inscriptions erected by the Zoroastrian high priest Kirdīr. On these inscriptions, Kirdīr mentions the following two religious denominations: nāsrāy and kristiyān. Some scholars, for instance, those cited by Altara, argue that this is evidence that Persians used to designate mainstream Christians as nāṣrāyā. The implication is that the Quranic naṣārā is then not a mystery anymore and does not refer to any Jewish-Christian group. Persians, after all, it is said, designated Christians by that name in the Sasanian realm and beyond. Others, however, disagree and prefer to read the Kirdīr inscriptions as evidence for the existence of Jewish-Christians denominations outside of the Patristic literature. This, in turn, serves as evidence that the naṣārā in the Quran are not mainstream Christians, but Jewish-Christians, as the former was not designated by that name, discounting the very earliest period of Christianity, of course.

    Hope this clarified the matter.  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5549 - February 24, 2019, 07:40 PM
    Thanks Magraye,

    How can the Kirdir inscription be of such importance here since it is 3-4 C? From that era we have more nsr references (Eusebius, Ephiphanus, Tertullianus).

    I still don't get that the Jewish Notzrim has so little weight in this debate.
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