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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5490 - February 21, 2019, 10:47 PM

    Because one non muslim source talks about arabs living in the Sinai desert and having synagogs.


    For West Christians of the time, prayer building which is not a church is necessarily a synagogue. What else it coulde be, a Buddhist or Zoroastrian Temple? 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5491 - February 21, 2019, 11:01 PM

    It could be a pagan temple.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5492 - February 21, 2019, 11:13 PM

    mundi asks question  and Marc S goes to   A. j. Deus
    Quote from: mundi  link=topic=27568.msg881836#msg881836 date=1550772642
    Marc,

    Why does it explain the house of prayer building?

    The nasara in the Quran

    A.J. Deus  work

    A.J. Deus b is really an out of the box thinker of history of faith dear Mark S....    those who are interested in early Islamic history must read his work...  I wonder whether you know him his works personally..

    anyway here is the link to his work..

    Quote
    A. j. Deus Publications

    1).MONUMENTS OF JIHAD - The Thought Process of Determining Qibla Orientations by Turks

    2).  SURA 2: MANY QIBLAS?

    3). Omar Nineveh, Decoding Early Islam
     
    4). MHMT/MHMD And A Seed Of The Koran

    5).  The Koran as Primary Evidence - Sidjin and Djin

    6). The Nasara in The Koran

    7). Muhammad and the Umayyad Conversion to Islam

    8 ) .  The Umayyad Dynasty's Conversion to Islam - From the Low Point Until ca. 692 AD

    9). Raw Analysis Turkish Mosque Orientations 'Monuments of Jihad'

    10). FLIPBOOK for Turkish Mosque Orientations 'Monuments of Jihad'

    11).  Orientation of Structures in Early Islam


    I AM CERTAIN mundi WILL LIKE A. j. Deus's  WORK

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5493 - February 21, 2019, 11:15 PM

    For West Christians of the time, prayer building which is not a church is necessarily a synagogue. What else it coulde be, a Buddhist or Zoroastrian Temple? 

     what is  West Christians??   Who were they and what was their geographical  location dear Altara ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5494 - February 22, 2019, 12:13 AM

    It could be a pagan temple.


    If they were pagans, I do not see why Anastasius does not say it, because 10 years later this designation will be done in Palestine by Christians to Arabs that one knows very well that they were "proto" Muslim and nothing else, therefore monotheists. It was a polemical topos. Here, he points at once a monotheist target in calling the building "synagogue". Because he probably knows that they are not pagans and as the building is not a church, it is, for him, the other monotheist faith in the field, and there is only one.
    Read what says Anastasius about the behavior of these Arabs towards the symbols of Christianity. People who do not care and mock them. Furthermore, I'm still searching in the sources attestations of paganism in this area (Egypt/ Palestine) at that time. There is nothing. The discoveries of Nevo in the Negev are interesting, but they have no date. As such, they cannot be used to affirm that pagan Arabs were heavily present at that time. In the 2,3,4, middle 5 th c. yes, later it's seems to me improbable due to the heavily presence of Christianity, from Egypt to Syria. Suffice to read the Nessana (Negev) papyri (People and Identities in Nessana by Rachel Stroumsa, 2008) to realize that in small cities of the desert  (Negev) all the Arabs were Christians . Even not Monophysite, but Chalcedonian, and that there is no organized pagan cults any more or unknown to them because residual. Meaning no building.
    I really think, Marc, that you should reconsider the system you have built ; each time what you say is refutable by the sources and the common scholarly knowledge, one way or another. Hypotheses must be grounded and the sources on which you ground them should be criticized.To have a scientific attitude is being able to change when one realizes that it does not fit. That it why it is necessary to have no idea, no belief, and to check if it fits with what recounts the sources and what you know of the (long) political and religion history from Palestine to Iraq.
    Maybe it does not appear here but I've changed my mind numerous time in the field. I've never thought that one day I will say that Muhammad  (as the producer of the Quran in Mecca/Kaba...)had never existed, etc. but it is my serious plunge in the field that made me envisaged the case, because there was too much blank points in the dossier which lead me (and the all scholarship) to go in circles, and  this possibility appeared to me, because one is in the field of religion which is a very special field considering what is at stake at that time. I then totally rethought it with this possibility.
    With this possibility, I have answers to almost all the questions raised : when... Answers, which fits with each other, therefore which, one time assembled, give a rational and plausible explication to the origin of the Quranic text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5495 - February 22, 2019, 12:20 AM

    what is  West Christians??   Who were they and what was their geographical  location dear Altara ??

    People West from Petra to north of actual Turkey, they did not know Buddhist and Persian temple, but churches and synagogues.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5496 - February 22, 2019, 12:56 AM

    Chabbi goes further (but of course not enough) Now retired, she starts to speak freely about Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem and the so called Ethiopian "Hijra"... for French speakers...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2usxelJ0U
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5497 - February 22, 2019, 06:44 AM

    Yeez,

    On Deus:

    Read his Qibla article ... probably not his strongest work?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5498 - February 22, 2019, 06:52 AM

    Altara,

    You write:

    Quote
    The discoveries of Nevo in the Negev are interesting, but they have no date. As such, they cannot be used to affirm that pagan Arabs were heavily present at that time.


    Can you be more specific on these discoveries?  We recently discussed Nevo when discussing the Dye/Kropp article  about the origin of the name Isa for Jesus. Dye referred to Nevo's Negev inscriptions containing Isa and others as being possibly pre-Islamic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5499 - February 22, 2019, 06:55 PM

    If they were pagans, I do not see why Anastasius does not say it,


    I just replied that because Anastasius had some sort of knowledge of their beliefs because you cannot call a pagan temple a synagog.

    Quote
    Here, he points at once a monotheist target in calling the building "synagogue". Because he probably knows that they are not pagans and as the building is not a church, it is, for him, the other monotheist faith in the field, and there is only one.


    I would say it does refer to knowledge that arabs, some of them, had converted to some sort of abrahamism, whether under the incitement of Jewish people or not.

    Quote
    I really think, Marc, that you should reconsider the system you have built ;


    I do that all the time and that is why I'd like to confront some of my ideas on forums. For the moment, I know that the "so-called" arab conquest started in the east and in the west by different people for motives that were not exactly the same. They didn't follow the same religion and the people who took over in the beginning are not the ones who later on were in power (the Sufyanids are not the Marwanids and their religion seem to have been different).

    Quote
    With this possibility, I have answers to almost all the questions raised :

    What are the questions you don't have answers to ?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5500 - February 22, 2019, 07:20 PM

    Yeez,

    On Deus:

    Read his Qibla article ... probably not his strongest work?

    I will....I willl   ..  so much to read .. sooo much to do...,     Hello mundi...  how are you doing?  did you start reading Quran?

    ..... Deus .....Amod J.  Deus.....  A. Jason  Deus..... AJDeus..

    Hi mundi by  chance,  do you know  who  AJDeus.  is?


    Quote
    ................From a western point of view, the paradoxical worst case would be Shi’ites and Sunnis finding peace in unity against their Jewish and Christian enemies – the real  Islam. Their goal? The reconquest of the Promised Land in the name of a New Jerusalem. The forces toward this End of Days are at work today in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Luckily for civilization, they cannot agree for long when they  will form a new alliance to achieve their goal once more. This researcher hopes that this paper is an eye-opener that inseminates a path to rational dialogue in peace. But the answers will not come with easy preconceptions.  Authority has created a mess – only time will fix it..........


    So  mundi  do you agree with  that??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5501 - February 22, 2019, 07:58 PM

    Quote
    ..... Deus ........Amod J.  Deus.............    A. Jason  Deus..... AJDeus..

    Hi mundi by  chance,  do you know  who  AJDeus.  is?



    Deus is an interesting guy. Everyone should read The Great Leap Fraud I& II. His reconstruction of islamic origins is sometimes disorganized but he provides a lot of sources that give a useful insight.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5502 - February 22, 2019, 08:34 PM

    Deus:

    I clearly dont know who he is. I only know his messy Qibla article.

    Yeez,

    No, I dont agree with him if the quote on civilization is his. I don't think these religions make the world turn round.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5503 - February 22, 2019, 08:54 PM

    glad to hear  Marc and mundi views on AJDeus.. ..
    Quote

    Deus is an interesting guy. Everyone should read The Great Leap Fraud I& II. His reconstruction of islamic origins is sometimes disorganized but he provides a lot of sources that give a useful insight.


    Quote
    mundi:  Yeez,

    No, I dont agree with him if the quote on civilization is his. I don't think these religions make the world turn round.


    well Mark .,  i  am one of those guys who can see useful insights as well question the same insights  ..  So what do you guys think about this?

    Quote
    .............The German Martin Luther was the founder of the Protestant Church. He wanted the Jews thrown out of Germany. This story unveils the origins of Martin Luther’s as well as Adolf Hitler’s anti-Semitism in frightening clarity: organized religion is nothing but organized crime. They are enemies of freedom. The oblivious disciples served as human shields for their leaders – Christians, Muslims, and ordinary Jews alike...............


    with best for both of you
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5504 - February 23, 2019, 02:30 AM

    I just replied that because Anastasius had some sort of knowledge of their beliefs because you cannot call a pagan temple a synagog.


    It is (very improbable) that it be a pagan temple. thats why he call it a synogogue as it is not a church.

    Quote
    I would say it does refer to knowledge that arabs, some of them, had converted to some sort of abrahamism, whether under the incitement of Jewish people or not.


    I do not think that one converts people to Biblical creeds ( like the Quran) in the 6 or 7 th c. Orient orally. One needs scripture to show. The Jews  would have converted  some Arabs to abrahamism and later the Arabs would have written the Quran and developed an anti Jewish stance ?
    Why?
    Quote
    I do that all the time and that is why I'd like to confront some of my ideas on forums. For the moment, I know that the "so-called" arab conquest started in the east

     
    Yes.
    Quote
    and in the west

    Revolt, not conquest. They stay where they are, in Palestine and take control.
    Quote
    They didn't follow the same religion and the people who took over in the beginning are not the ones who later on were in power (the Sufyanids are not the Marwanids and their religion seem to have been different). 


    You still not have remarked one thing between 630 and 640.

    Quote
    What are the questions you don't have answers to ?


    In fact from the historian point of view of the 21th c. without time machine to check the details, none.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5505 - February 23, 2019, 09:03 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    I do not think that one converts people to Biblical creeds ( like the Quran) in the 6 or 7 th c. Orient orally. One needs scripture to show.


    How would a conversion have worked in Late Antiquity?

    1/ How did the first Christians get converted?

    There must have been first some "illuminati"(apostles?) that converted. They must have had some rich mecenas to go round and preach, convincing downtrodden and others of the message. No need of scripture in the first stage.

    2/ Would that have worked for Islam too?

    I think we would need to differentiate in different stages.

    a/ pre-conquest: If Islam already existed in that stage


    Anyone any suggestions?

    b/ post-conquest

    That is easier to understand. The authorities stimulated the conversion by giving all kinds of advantages. Also the new religion must have been attractive by its divine  allowing of certain contested social habits like polygamy and consanguinity.

    Book or no book. I doubt that mattered for the "common convert". It must have mattered to certain intellectuals who indeed needed divine scriptures to be able to make the argument. Late antiquity was no time for oral transmission of the divine. Authenticity of the scriptures was central to religious debates.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5506 - February 23, 2019, 10:42 AM

    Quote
    1/ How did the first Christians get converted?
    There must have been first some "illuminati"(apostles?) that converted. They must have had some rich mecenas to go round and preach, convincing downtrodden and others of the message. No need of scripture in the first stage.


    They were Jews with the Septuagint if necessary  (yawn...).
    Quote
    2/ Would that have worked for Islam too?


    Not the same people and situation.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5507 - February 23, 2019, 11:33 AM

    Altara,

    On 1C conversion to Christianity:

    Quote
    They were Jews with the Septuagint if necessary  (yawn...).


    What Jews? what class, what occupation? who supported them? Did they carry the Septuagint with them? Why not the Hebrew bible? Doubt they would be carrying the scrolls or any book with them. (Thought that even some NT biblical quotes are not accurate..)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5508 - February 23, 2019, 03:45 PM

    It is (very improbable) that it be a pagan temple. thats why he call it a synogogue as it is not a church.


    He called it a synagog because he saw a direct link with judaism.

    Quote
    One needs scripture to show. The Jews  would have converted  some Arabs to abrahamism and later the Arabs would have written the Quran and developed an anti Jewish stance ?


    This is not what I said because the arabs converted by the Jews are not the arabs who put together the Quran.

    Quote
    Why?

    When does the anti-Jewish stance from Arabs show up in history according to you ?

    Quote
    Yes. Revolt, not conquest. They stay where they are, in Palestine and take control.


    That is why I called it "so-called conquest".

    Quote
    You still not have remarked one thing between 630 and 640.


    What is that ?

    Quote
    I do not think that one converts people to Biblical creeds ( like the Quran) in the 6 or 7 th c. Orient orally.


    That is an interesting topic to dig.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5509 - February 23, 2019, 03:59 PM


    1/ How did the first Christians get converted?


    I guess the conversion to christianity in the beginning did not happen in the same way whether you adressed Jews or pagans. The Jews would already have the scriptures the Christian apostles were refering to.

    Now, regarding pagans, it doesn't seem like there were some writings from the start and that preaching was done orally.

    Anyway, the arguments and methodoly to convert these 2 different populations could not have been the same.

    Quote
    2/ Would that have worked for Islam too?


    For me, the question is more about the putting together of the Quranic texts into a single book and trying to give it a seemingly coherence. Like I said previously on that forum, you have in the Quran many events that are told different times in the Quran but the events are not reported in the same way  ; this means that someone took different independent texts and put them together rather than someone having written texts with the intent of putting them in a book. With this thinking in mind, the pre-existence of quranic texts is a no event because you had the Torah, the Talmud, the Christian apocrypha texts already circulating, and that is a pool big enough to extract texts from.

    Quote
    b/ post-conquest


    An interesting thing is that, I think it is during what the arabs would call the first fitna, Sebeos is telling us about people in Egypt who convert to christianity. The question is what do they convert from ? It also address the issue of how people get converted in Late Antiquity (and later).

    Now when their prince Mu'awiya, who was in Asorestan and was second to their king, saw what had happened, he united his troops and he too went to the desert. He killed the king whom they enthroned, battling with and severely destroying the troops in the Tachik area. He then returned to Asorestan in triumph. Now the army which was in Egypt united with the Byzantine emperor, made peace and was incorporated. The multitude of the troops, some 15,000 people, believed in Christ and were baptized.  Sebeos' History Chapter 35

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5510 - February 23, 2019, 04:22 PM

    He called it a synagog because he saw a direct link with judaism.


    As it was not churches, the only possibility was synagogues, and nothing else.

    Quote
    This is not what I said because the arabs converted by the Jews are not the arabs who put together the Quran.


     I do not get it. Elaborate.


    Quote
    When does the anti-Jewish stance from Arabs show up in history according to you ?


    In the Quran the anti-Jewish stance is not (for me...) a later layer. In history I'd say after 750, not before.



    Quote
    What is that ?


    You have to find it yourself, it is related to the conquest.

    Quote
    That is an interesting topic to dig.


    Yes.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5511 - February 23, 2019, 05:06 PM

    Marc,

    On conversions:

    The first "Christians" must have been Jews. So these people had knowledge of holy texts, but might not have seen any themselves.

    But let's make this very concrete. How can such a religion like Christianity have started. Maybe there was this captivating personality (Jesus) that enthusiated some "illuminati"? One of them was rich, and sponsored some more people to spread the message? At no point was having the books at hand important to convert people. Talking about the books was enough. In any case, the New testament was not written yet. So it played NO role.

    The text of Sebeos you mentioned is typically for later stages of a religion. You make the king convert, or another powerful person, and the rest follows.

    How did protestantism catch on so fast in Europe. I remember visiting Bremen in N. Germany. At a certain moment the ruler said from this day on all churches are protestant. And so that happened. In later stages things can be very simple. But the early formative period is different.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5512 - February 23, 2019, 05:27 PM


     I do not get it. Elaborate.


    The Arabs converted by the Jews who mocked the Christ cannot be the same Arabs who put together the Quran where Christ is revered.

    Quote
    In the Quran the anti-Jewish stance is not (for me...) a later layer. In history I'd say after 750, not before.


    Well, have you considered those 2 things before getting to the opinion you have today ? :

    - the anti-Jewish stance might be laying more in the interpretation of the Quranic text rather than what the text actually wants to convey ; let's not forget we have no item to contextualize those texts except when we can link them straight to Biblical or Talmudic texts,

    - do you know a lot of Jews who believed Ezrah is the Son of God ? The link to the AJ Deus article about the Nasaras in the Quran gives a different perspective to consider

    Quote
    You have to find it yourself, it is related to the conquest.


    LOL. a hint ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5513 - February 23, 2019, 05:48 PM

    Marc,

    On conversions:

    The first "Christians" must have been Jews. So these people had knowledge of holy texts, but might not have seen any themselves.


    I agree but the scriptural tradition was there so Christians would have appealed to it for their conversion efforts.

    Quote
    But let's make this very concrete. How can such a religion like Christianity have started. Maybe there was this captivating personality (Jesus) that enthusiated some "illuminati"? One of them was rich, and sponsored some more people to spread the message? At no point was having the books at hand important to convert people. Talking about the books was enough. In any case, the New testament was not written yet. So it played NO role.


    Well, within the Jews, some of them were expecting that God would send a divine Messiah (whatever divine means) and this idea slowly spread among the Jews themselves (was the destruction of the Temple a catalyst to those messianic hopes ? ) and also among pagans whom the Jews were largely living with (where the Son of God motto would have easily appealed to them though the meaning would have been different from jewish interpretation).

    Quote
    At no point was having the books at hand important to convert people. Talking about the books was enough. In any case, the New testament was not written yet. So it played NO role.


    Your assumption is valid though the NT is about Jesus life rather than his teachings and his teachings are already in the Torah.

    Quote
    The text of Sebeos you mentioned is typically for later stages of a religion. You make the king convert, or another powerful person, and the rest follows.

    How did protestantism catch on so fast in Europe. I remember visiting Bremen in N. Germany. At a certain moment the ruler said from this day on all churches are protestant. And so that happened. In later stages things can be very simple. But the early formative period is different.



    I see Islam being spread in the same way Christianity was spread after Constantin conversion, so in other words someone picking up a minor sect for whatever reasons and deciding to spread it for political reasons.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5514 - February 23, 2019, 09:09 PM

    Marc,

    Quote
    I see Islam being spread in the same way Christianity was spread after Constantin conversion, so in other words someone picking up a minor sect for whatever reasons and deciding to spread it for political reasons.


    How and where did the minor sect emerge, that is the question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5515 - February 23, 2019, 10:19 PM

    The Arabs converted by the Jews who mocked the Christ cannot be the same Arabs who put together the Quran where Christ is revered.


    I still do not get it.

    Quote
    Well, have you considered those 2 things before getting to the opinion you have today ? :

    - the anti-Jewish stance might be laying more in the interpretation of the Quranic text rather than what the text actually wants to convey; let's not forget we have no item to contextualize those texts except when we can link them straight to Biblical or Talmudic texts

    Then the  general anti Jewish stance as it was understood in general by the Muslims  from the Quran would be a misunderstanding of the text?
     
    Quote
    - do you know a lot of Jews who believed Ezrah is the Son of God ? The link to the AJ Deus article about the Nasaras in the Quran gives a different perspective to consider

     1/AJ Deus :"He (Gallez) observed that Christians had never called themselves Nazarenes or were called by that name, whether in the West or in the East"

    Unfortunately it's inexact. I've enough said why with numerous sources and articles that Gallez ignored because this does not fit with his thesis.

    2/ Jews who believed Ezrah is the Son of God is of course a joke.  Is the only reproach made to the Jews in the Quran? I do not think so.

    Quote
    LOL. a hint ?


    Reread the phrase.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5516 - February 24, 2019, 01:27 AM

    I still do not get it.


    Reread the phrase. Wink

    Quote
    Then the  general anti Jewish stance as it was understood in general by the Muslims  from the Quran would be a misunderstanding of the text?


    A misunderstanding, or an alteration of the meaning of the text.

    Quote
    Jews who believed Ezrah is the Son of God is of course a joke.  Is the only reproach made to the Jews in the Quran? I do not think so.


    The Hebrew Bible is also reproaching a lot of things to Jews ; can one say that it has an anti jewish stance ?

    Quote
    Reread the phrase.


    I still do not get it. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5517 - February 24, 2019, 01:34 AM

    Quote
    He (Gallez) observed that Christians had never called themselves Nazarenes or were called by that name, whether in the West or in the East


    Can you please remind us of these sources? Gallez does, however, concede that Christians were called Nazoreans in the very beginning.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5518 - February 24, 2019, 01:37 AM

    Marc,

    How and where did the minor sect emerge, that is the question.


    Today I would say in the sassanian empire.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5519 - February 24, 2019, 07:15 AM

    Nazareans:

    Jews called Christians nsr in the Babylonian Talmud. Why doesnt that count?
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