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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5190 - February 08, 2019, 01:00 PM

    Shoemaker has found 11 sources that claim that Muhammad took part in the invasion of Palestine around 634A.D., about two years after his death, according to Muslim traditions.


    I read his book but yes some sources do talk about the arabs of Muhammad so one might think that he was still alive but this isn't stated like this except maybe in the Doctrina Jacobbi ; other sources don't say this on the contrary (like Sebeos).

    Quote
    Shoemaker thinks that Muhammad lead an eschatological movement and they thought doomsday would come when they entered Jerusalem.


    The issue with Stephen Shoemaker assumption, and he isn't the only one claiming this, is that they would need to explain different events that contradict their scenario. If Jerusalem was the prime objective, it seems strange that it isn't what comes out of the conquest narrative ; it seems that those arabs, who believed doosmday would come when they would enter Jerusalem, spent a lot of time waging war in areas that were not related to Jerusalem.

    Now this doesn't mean that, among the arab troops, you didn't have people believing this but they couldn't have been the driving force behind it.

    Quote
    But nothing happened. So that may be the reason for the lacking of contemporary Muslim sources: they simply had to rearrange their thinking and find a new holy place to pray towards. First Petra and then later Mecca (may assumption)?


    The primary reason why we lack early islamic sources is that Islam, as we know it today, simply didn't exist at that time. Beyond that, and unless someone can bring solid proofs, everything else is pure speculation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5191 - February 08, 2019, 01:33 PM

    I read his book but yes some sources do talk about the Arabs of Muhammad so one might think that he was still alive but this isn't stated like this except maybe in the Doctrina Jacobbi ; other sources don't say this on the contrary (like Sebeos).


    Yes.

    Quote
    The issue with Stephen Shoemaker assumption, and he isn't the only one claiming this,


    All the sceptics in the field claims more or less this indeed.


    Quote
    is that they would need to explain different events that contradict their scenario. If Jerusalem was the prime objective, it seems strange that it isn't what comes out of the conquest narrative ;

     

    Of course. For instance, they do not explain it. One can very well understand why.

    Quote
    it seems that those Arabs, who believed doomsday would come when they would enter Jerusalem, spent a lot of time waging war in areas that were not related to Jerusalem.


    Yes.

    Quote
    Now this doesn't mean that, among the arab troops, you didn't have people believing this but they couldn't have been the driving force behind it.


    Yes. Only few guys around the military leaders (in the West) were aware and got some Quranic texts. It is them who advised the chiefs that the house of prayer should be built on the Temple Mount in 637/38. There was no Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem zem at that time ; they build the house of prayer.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5192 - February 08, 2019, 01:40 PM

    Altara;

    [The early movement of Arabs  started as a group  to get rid of the  Persians for excellent reasons.]

    "Exellent reasons". Can you please elaborate?
     
    So you think that for instance Stephen Shoemaker is wrong in his descriptions of an eschatological movement?


     Asbjoern look at the video yeez has posted  and you get your responses.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6__C7Wu8qV4

    Quote
    So you think that for instance Stephen Shoemaker is wrong in his descriptions of an eschatological movement?


    There are factual events very well sourced that explains the Arab-Persians war, look at the Sivers video, he gives them. There is no need of the frame "Muhammad/Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem" to start it as thought by Muslim historiographers at the end of the 8th c. This frame is redundant to the secular reason of the starting of the war. The Arab war has been Islamized whereas it has nothing to do with this. One know this because there is not trace of Mecca/Medina/Kaba before Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5193 - February 08, 2019, 01:45 PM


    Yes. Only few guys around the military leaders (in the West) were aware and got some Quranic texts. It is them who advised the chiefs that the house of prayer should be built on the Temple Mount in 637/38. There was no Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem zem at that time ; they build the house of prayer.



    You don't need Quranic texts for this, you only need to be jewish. Islamic tradition for example is telling us that it is a Jew allegedly converted to Islam who guided Umar to the area of the Temple Mount ; Sebeos mention an alliance between Jews and Arabs ; we saw in 614, when Persians overtook Jerusalem,  that Jews did commit to the war efforts with them. All this need not to be neglected.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5194 - February 08, 2019, 02:04 PM

    Well there is so much of history of Islam in this folder from different angles from very intelligent rational scholars/folks., for a guy like me  it  is hard to keep it up with the posts of this folder .. anyways   mundi says  
    Yeez,

    From Gibson's database it is easy to look up archaeological reports for confirmation. Some are more convincing than others. The ones I mentioned are very convincing that they are early Islamic.

     well mundi ,   Gibson   is on to very very specific subject of early Islam  and I have serious problem with his database and list of early Mosques and their architecture .,  .. these words of yours
    Quote
    ......Look at all the early mosques (Ayla, Qastal...) for sure built in mid 7th C. They have distinct features including a mihrab. Clearly they are not churches and that in a Christian conquered environment. Conquerors don't seem to have taken over the Christian buildings but built their own............

      needs careful investigation.. and the link you  gave from Gibon's work on that subject  of  sacred city http://thesacredcity.ca/data/   with all these so called Mosques

    Quote
    Mosque of the Two Qiblas626 CE5 AHJerusalem & Petra
    Hama Great Mosque637 CE15 AHPetra
    Amr ibn -Al-As642 CE21 AHPetra
    Dome of the Chain690 CE71 AHPetra
    Qasr Humeima699 CE80 AHPetra
    Seven Sleepers Mosque600-699 CE CE600-699 CE AHPetra
    Jerash Umayyad Mosque600-699 CE CE600-699 CE AHPetra
    Aqaba Umayyad Mosque600-699 CE CE600-699 CE AHPetra
    Qasr Mushash 600-699 CE CE600-699 CE AHPetra
    Qasr El-Bai'j410 CE CE410 CE AHPetra
    Um Jimal Later Castellum300-399 CE CE300-399 CE AHPetra
    Zeila Qiblatain Mosque (Lft)600-699 CE CE600-699 CE AHPetra
    Kathisma church600-699 CE CE600-699 CE AHPetra
    San'a Grand Mosque705 CE86 AHPetra
    Khirbit al Minya706 CE87 AHPetra
    Hajjaj Mosque706 CE87 AHBetween
    Masjid al-Tarik Khana708 CE89 AHBetween
    Al-Aqsa Mosque709 CE90 AHPetra
    Damascus Umayyad Mosque709 CE91 AHBetween
    Qasr Al-Kharana 710 CE92 AHBetween
    Amman Umayyad Mosque710 CE82 AHBetween
    Um Walid712 CE93 AHPetra
    Khann al Zabib712 CE93 AHBetween
    Khirbat al Mafjar714 CE95 AHPetra
    Anjar714 CE95 AHPetra
    Aleppo Umayyad Mosque715 CE96 AHBetween
    Qasr Qastal720 CE101 AHPetra
    Mosque of Bosra721 CE102 AHBetween
    Qasr al Hayr al Gharbi726 CE107 AHBetween
    Banbhore727 CE109 AHMecca
    Qasr Hayr al Sharqi728 CE110 AHBetween
    Amman Umayyad Palace730 CE112 AHMecca
    Jami' al-Zaytuna732 CE115 AHParallel
    Ba'albeck Mosque740 CE122 AHBetween
    Qasr Bayir743 CE125 AHMecca
    Qasr Mushatta 743 CE126 AHPetra
    Qasr Tubah743 CE126 AHJerusalem
    Harran University & Mosque744 CE127 AHBetween
    Mosque of Mansur762 CE145 AHMecca
    Qasr Ukhaydir764 CE146 AHMecca
    Ribat Fortress770 CE153 AHParallel
    Tauste Graveyard772 CE155 AHParallel
    Yamama Great Mosque700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHBetween
    Um Jimal Umayyad Mosque700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHBetween
    Qasr Al-Fudayn 700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHBetween
    Qasr Ain as-Sil 700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHBetween
    Azraq Fort Mosque700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHBetween
    Qasr Aseikhin700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHMecca
    Sahi Ramdah Mosque700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHPetra
    Qiblatain Mosque700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHPetra
    Yogharta Mosque700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHParallel
    Bazaar Qaisariya700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHBetween
    Al-Sawaf Mosque Grounds700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHBetween
    Raqqa Mosque772 CE155 AHBetween
    Bibi Samarkand700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHJerusalem & Petra
    Abdul Qader Yagouri Mosque700-799 CE CE700-799 CE AHParallel
    Cordoba Mosque784 CE168 AHParallel
    Qasr Hallabat Mosque827 CE212 AHMecca
    Jami' Uqba Ibn Nafi'836 CE221 AHParallel
    Great Mosque of Samarra847 CE232 AHMecca
    Great Mosque of Susa850 CE236 AHParallel
    Abu Dulaf Mosque859 CE245 AHMecca
    Mosque of the Three Doors866 CE252 AHParallel
    Ibn Tulun Mosque876 CE263 AHMecca
    Ansaq Friday Mosque800-899 CE CE800-899 CE AHMecca
    Nine Domed Mosque800-899 CE CE800-899 CE AHMecca
    Salalah Al-Balid Mosque800-899 CE CE800-899 CE AHMecca
    Harat Great Mosque1200 CE596 AHJerusalem


    at the interface of 6th and 7th century  needs far more thorough investigations than what I see  from Gibson's work..  but I must agree here that  I have not read his works very carefully  

    and and I would greatly appreciate  original source of that picture you posted on these so-called mosques .  by the way I am so glad to read you in CEMB forum

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5195 - February 08, 2019, 02:17 PM

    Yeez, unfortunately I do not know French authors about this figure. Figure that I did not know!  What I've found is the French Wikipedia which is a copy of the English one.

      that is what Altara   says about  Al-Khansa... The Arabic poetess of 6/7th century interface


    I am very fascinated about woman folks on early Islam .. and  on faiths/religions  I prefer French historians over British historians    Cheesy Cheesy .. Because British historians  of 1650 to 1950   HAD ULTERIOR MOTIVES   in telling history of eastern faiths.


    anyways   let me put  this tube  on that wonderful poetess of Arabia  of that time

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSndzkd8Gks

    Poetess of Arabia from 3rd  to 7th century speaks volumes on Women freedom during that time..  Moreover Quran speaks about Poets  in some of its verses

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5196 - February 08, 2019, 03:48 PM


    You don't need Quranic texts for this, you only need to be jewish.


    Of course. But it is not a jewish army which enters Jerusalem in 637. On the other hand it is not the Temple which has been rebuilt. It is a prayer building. One have already disputing this point. Sources point that there is a conflict between Jews and Arabs about who has the right on the temple Mount. If it is true, it means that Arabs are not Jewish and that they follow other indication than the jewish one to build something. That they are not jewish is corroborated by the rest of the story : keeping cross on Arab coins, inscriptions with crosses : is that a Jewish custom, crosses and Jesus as prophet in the Dome of the Rock later? I do not think so.
    I do not think  as well that it was on Jewish instruction that they build something to be stolen by the same Jews of the house they built. And if they did not care, and did it because the Jews have asked them to do so, why expelled the Jews of the Mount then?  It is simply because they really wanted to build something and that it did not coming from the Jews. It is probable that the Jews thought to frame them when they saw this building being constructed. Hence the conflict. Unfortunately (for them) they were expelled. 



    Quote
    Islamic tradition for example is telling us that it is a Jew allegedly converted to Islam who guided Umar to the area of the Temple Mount ; Sebeos mention an alliance between Jews and Arabs ; we saw in 614, when Persians overtook Jerusalem,  that Jews did commit to the war efforts with them. All this need not to be neglected.


    Islamic tradition are full of  stories to explain events that it ties with the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Muhammad/Zem zem. In the  (real) sources there no mention of an "Umar" or anything else in 637 to built on the Mount. Rather, there is a demand of the Arabs where was the Mount and the Jews shown them. I (really) think that the Jews thought that they were rebuilding the Temple for THEM (Jews). And that they could frame the Arabs. One knows the end of the story.

    Quote
    Sebeos mention an alliance between Jews and Arabs ; we saw in 614, when Persians overtook Jerusalem,  that Jews did commit to the war efforts with them. All this need not to be neglected.


    An alliance where Arabs expelled the Jews from the Mount? I do not call that an "alliance". In 614 the situation is (totally) different; the Persians are in charge. Nor the Jews,  nor the Arabs-Persians or anyone else. They all obey to their Persian masters. It happens that they give the city to the Jews to humiliate the Romans (Monophysite, Chalcedonian, Nestorian). But it is not a jewish conquest, it is a Persian one. They REMOVE the city according to the sources from the Jews hand two years later. And what did the Jews? Nothing. They have obeyed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5197 - February 08, 2019, 04:26 PM

      that is what Altara   says about  Al-Khansa... The Arabic poetess of 6/7th century interface


    I am very fascinated about woman folks on early Islam .. and  on faiths/religions  I prefer French historians over British historians    Cheesy Cheesy .. Because British historians  of 1650 to 1950   HAD ULTERIOR MOTIVES   in telling history of eastern faiths.

    English is a simple French but  very bad pronounced. Learn it.


    Quote
    anyways   let me put  this tube  on that wonderful poetess of Arabia  of that time

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSndzkd8Gks

    Poetess of Arabia from 3rd  to 7th century speaks volumes on Women freedom during that time..  Moreover Quran speaks about Poets  in some of its verses

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Thanks!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5198 - February 08, 2019, 04:37 PM


    You don't need Quranic texts for this, you only need to be jewish. Islamic tradition for example is telling us that it is a Jew allegedly converted to Islam who guided Umar to the area of the Temple Mount ;
    Sebeos mention an alliance between Jews and Arabs ; we saw in 614, when Persians overtook Jerusalem,  that Jews did commit to the war efforts with them. All this need not to be neglected.

    Hi  Marc US  ... happy old year.,  well  you  are right,   one should NOT neglect what has been written in history.,  but I am afraid very few have read   that Armenian History
    attributed to Sebeos
      in  its  original form.,  Often most folks write hand waving statements in the name of Sebeos
    Quote
    Sebeos (Armenian: Սեբեոս) was a 7th-century Armenian bishop and historian.

    Little is known about the author, though a signature on the resolution of the Ecclesiastical Council of Dvin in 645 reads 'Bishop Sebeos of Bagratunis.' His writings are valuable as one of the few intact surviving sources that chronicle sixth century Armenia and its surrounding territories.[1] The history of Sebeos contains detailed descriptions from the period of Sassanid supremacy in Armenia up to the Islamic conquest in 661. His history was published for the first time in 1851 in Istanbu


    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5199 - February 08, 2019, 04:46 PM

    Hi Yeez,

    Thanks for the friendly words! Nice to hear.

    On Gibson:

    I didnt post pics (I dont know how to, maybe you can help?)

    I don't solely rely on Gibson's info. I try to dig deeper and look up the archeology reports corresponding with the finds. And like I told you, some listed mosque's are more convincing than others...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5200 - February 08, 2019, 05:09 PM

    mundi  says
    Quote
    Hi Yeez,

    I didnt post pics (I dont know how to, maybe you can help?)

    I don't solely rely on Gibson's info. I try to dig deeper and look up the archeology reports corresponding with the finds.

    Oh I see

    .. well I was under the impression that you went through Gibson's work at his site because you posted a link from his work
    Hi Yeez,
    .....................
    Have a look at this link. Look up Ayla, Qastal, Jerash and others: http://thesacredcity.ca/data/

     if you click that link   you will see a dynamic picture  of the geography of those alleged Mosques of 6/7th century   and that come from Gibson's website at Dan Gibson's Research Data

    as far as putting picture on the post is concerned it is very simple  .. for eg.  take any Jpeg picture from any web site   such as this one from Gibson

    http://thesacredcity.ca/BetweenQiblas2.jpg

    and high-lite the link and click "insert image button"  that you see the box frame you type a post in to the forum...so the above link becomes  a picture



    hope I didn't confuse you .. other wise please read this link https://www.proboards.com/user-guide/posting/inserting-images

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5201 - February 08, 2019, 05:15 PM

    Altara,

    On my monastery theory:

    For all these problems you mentioned I can imagine an answer. But that would be story telling. We simply can't know the details of how the Quran was composed. So many western scholars write full papers and books on details of  what Mohammed was thinking and doing when reciting or whatever. I really admire them, true talent filling all these pages with baked air.

    I can't get this monastery thing out of my mind because it is the only intellectual environment I can imagine that could produce something like the Quran. Does someone have another suggestion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5202 - February 08, 2019, 05:34 PM

    Yeez,

    On Gibson:

    I do follow his work but I remain critical and look things up additionally. The Jerash mosque is an interesting case.
    Here is Gibsons info: http://thesacredcity.ca/jerash.html

    Looking up the archeology report under https://miri.ku.dk/projekts/djijp/
    you find this pic: (thanks for the tip!!)

    So after measuring on google earth and reading the report, the Jerash mosque points to Petra not with 5 degrees difference but 1!!!

    It is interesting because the mosque was built after the Roman roads, and not pointing East but West (190 degrees). In Jerash people must have known the Hijaz was to the south east, but they chose to direct the mosque to the South west. Weird!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5203 - February 08, 2019, 06:15 PM

    Altara,

    On my monastery theory:

    For all these problems you mentioned I can imagine an answer. But that would be story telling. We simply can't know the details of how the Quran was composed. So many western scholars write full papers and books on details of  what Mohammed was thinking and doing when reciting or whatever. I really admire them, true talent filling all these pages with baked air.

    I can't get this monastery thing out of my mind because it is the only intellectual environment I can imagine that could produce something like the Quran. Does someone have another suggestion?


    Guillaume Dye speaks very much about a monks milieu as well, especially about the "layers"/interpolations that he sees (and others like Segovia)  which were added to the corpus after the conquest. Western (?) monks milieu which would have decided to join the winners. This theory seems consecrate  the Wansbrough one, apart that for him these "layers" constitutive of the entire Quranic text were added in a much longer period of time. One knows today that the material seems rather stable, therefore the Wansbrough theory must have been adapted to fit the closing of the rasm towards 650.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5204 - February 08, 2019, 06:23 PM

    Altara,

    Monastery theory:

    Some parts of the Quran seem to have been specifically written to create a new theology others less (eg the later /supposedly earlier ones like 105- the elephant).

    I can imagine that at the moment the Caliphs commissioned the definitive version of the holy book , "the monks of the monastery/scribal workshop"collected all they could use, including older, non typical muslim material and added it to the rest to get more volume. I think any student having to fill an amount of pages can relate to that?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5205 - February 08, 2019, 08:49 PM

    Quote
    Monastery theory:
    Some parts of the Quran seem to have been specifically written to create a new theology


    How knowing that the new theology it is not a simple "late" "layer" in the multiple "layers" that constitutes the Quranic text if Wansbrough et al. are right ? In another word that this  proposition of a new theology  is not at the beginning of the creation of the text?

    Quote
    I can imagine that at the moment the Caliphs commissioned the definitive version of the holy book , "the monks of the monastery/scribal workshop"collected all they could use, including older, non typical muslim material and added it to the rest to get more volume.


    It is more or less the Dye theory.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5206 - February 08, 2019, 09:09 PM

    Altara,

    I seem to be in good company! Dye is thinking in the same lines as I am   Smiley. Wansbrough pops up too...

    Haha, I follow the common sense method.

    Trying to discern if the new theology was an extra layer or was meant as such from the beginning is an interesting question. That comes down to Bjoern's question? Was the theology developed first and did the conquest result from that, or did the conquistadors need an ideology to fire up the troops for a conquest that was already planned or going on?

    What do you think?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5207 - February 08, 2019, 10:38 PM

    Was the Quran created in a monastery?

    Well, David Cook thinks that the Quran in the beginning was oral.
    He writes that a millennial of documentable texts could be it's sources. He don't think it originated from literary texts. So he thinks we should trace the Quran's origins among traders and travelers in the Hijaz and in Syria- Palestine.
     So we should not try to find its origins among literary texts in monasteries, but among traders and travelers. But the authors of the Quran obviously must have known a lot since there could be found thousand documentable texts used as it's sources.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5208 - February 08, 2019, 11:20 PM

    Altara,


    Trying to discern if the new theology was an extra layer or was meant as such from the beginning is an interesting question. That comes down to Bjoern's question? Was the theology developed first and did the conquest result from that, or did the conquistadors need an ideology to fire up the troops for a conquest that was already planned or going on?

    What do you think?



    A guy like Cuypers has developed  a theory which does not envisage the text as a layered one. He considers the text as a whole and deciphers it with the tool of Semitic rhetoric.

    The conquest (for me) has nothing to see with the Quran, or Mecca/Medina/ Kaba. But historical events as shown by the von Sivers video. The Quranic texts and the conquerors are not originated from the Mecca/Medina/ Kaba frame. But they have  with them in coming to the West, some Quranic texts  (not necessarily all) whose they are not the authors and that they do not clearly understand  but in which they believe the few they can understand of them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5209 - February 08, 2019, 11:31 PM

    Dye thinks that a Christian monk wrote (parts) of Q 19
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5210 - February 09, 2019, 01:52 AM

    Yes. Because it looks like to soghita. I'm not convinced that a formal literary resemblance in another language (Arabic)  can designate surely the author in Arabic as a Christian monk. A Christian monk does not think that Jesus is a prophet. Or he is not Christian.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5211 - February 09, 2019, 04:31 AM

    Perhaps he only was a scribe? Meaning, the content of the transcribed material does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the scribe.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5212 - February 09, 2019, 08:04 AM

    Monk or not:

    Let us have a look at the first 5 Surahs- the long theological ones, and assume it is principally written by a single author. What can we say about the author?

    - good knowledge of Bible
    - good knowledge of christianity
    - good knowledge of Talmud/ Mishnah
    - Arabic speaker

    Who can add more qualities? We can then try to mach him in a 6-7 C milieu of late antiquity.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5213 - February 09, 2019, 10:27 AM

    Dye thinks that a Christian monk wrote (parts) of Q 19

    Q19  .. Surah44 .. Surah Maryam ....... 

    Hello Mahgraye . why only Dye?

    Anyone and every one who reads that ....Surah44 ..Surah Maryam  will come to the same conclusion ., and that conclusion is .. Those plagiarizers  who put Quran together as present book indeed copy/pasted stories  from Christian monks of that time THAT WERE THERE IN & AROUND  ARABIA ...

    I have written many posts innumerable times on that Surah 19  in different forums and here in CEMB itself  .. please read theses links

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847206#msg847206
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847232#msg847232
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847350#msg847350
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847402#msg847402
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847418#msg847418
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847451#msg847451
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847540#msg847540


    All those long posts are about Q19.. aka ..Surah44 aka Surah Maryam...

    Fools Read Quran with Heart & Brain .....but it is better to read it as   Child   as Children Story book ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5214 - February 09, 2019, 11:32 AM

    Perhaps he only was a scribe? Meaning, the content of the transcribed material does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the scribe.


    Sure. Since a certain time he does not speak any more of Q 19.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5215 - February 09, 2019, 11:45 AM

    Monk or not:

    Let us have a look at the first 5 Surahs- the long theological ones, and assume it is principally written by a single author. What can we say about the author?

    - good knowledge of Bible
    - good knowledge of christianity
    - good knowledge of Talmud/ Mishnah
    - Arabic speaker

    I think that you've made a good portrait. Is this guy can be tied to a Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem frame? (Haha, ad infinitum...) Sean Anthony and May Shaddel (now a student...) et al. think it can. What you think?

    Quote
    Who can add more qualities? We can then try to match him in a 6-7 C milieu of late antiquity.


    Ok. Match him already in the milieus you have described.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5216 - February 09, 2019, 01:24 PM

    Monk or not:

    Let us have a look at the first 5 Surahs- the long theological ones, and assume it is principally written by a single author. What can we say about the author?

    - good knowledge of Bible
    - good knowledge of christianity
    - good knowledge of Talmud/ Mishnah
    - Arabic speaker
    .....etc...etc..

    Who can add more qualities? We can then try to mach him in a 6-7 C milieu of late antiquity.


    Hi  mundi  just curious.,  did you ever read  FIRST 5 Surahs of Quran?  let me remind you what they are with links

    Quote


    well  that is the first step  before we talk  about rest of your points  you mentioned such as....

    Quote
    - good knowledge of Bible
    - good knowledge of christianity
    - good knowledge of Talmud/ Mishnah
    - Arabic speaker...............etc...etc..



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Z6_yOzZ40

    from there to here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sKXD3irNac

    Ha!  What a way to go..........  and life goes on.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5217 - February 09, 2019, 01:52 PM

    Yeez,

    With the first 5, I mean the first 5. Not the ones that are in the assumed chronological order!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5218 - February 09, 2019, 02:00 PM

    mundi  says
    Quote
    Yeez,

    With the first 5, I mean the first 5. Not the ones that are in the assumed chronological order!

    ..

    oh! you were talking about ASSUMED BOOKISH ORDER.. Cheesy

    well  then with  the exception  of that surah -1 .,   the contents of rest of those four surahs   are  filled with jumbo gibberish and much less to do with Christianity and Christian stories  dear  mundi

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5219 - February 09, 2019, 02:06 PM

    To all,

    I think we need to enlarge the list of qualities our author(s) had. I will add another one:

    - Influenced by Geez speakers
      
    I repeat the other ones:

    - good knowledge of Bible
    - good knowledge of christianity
    - good knowledge of Talmud/ Mishnah
    - Arabic speaker

    I hope you all will add some more.
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