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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5160 - February 07, 2019, 06:36 PM
    Altara,

    Concerning 5th C-Arabs-Ismaelites

    As I said before, I mainly concentrated on the chapter starting from p148. Extensive contacts existed already in 5 th C with Arabs within the limes but also those outside ("those without Greek books").

    This Ishmael thing seems something the Arabs had internalised and were proud of, not just a label from outside. In an Arab environment "dotted with monasteries", with a clerical hierarchy losing control (see emergence of all these heresies-video of Von Sivers), something like the Quran being written in a dissidenting monastery is a scenario I can imagine. They could have built on their own tradition (Ismael stories) that they  put to book (Quran) for the very first time. These monks in the monasteries clearly had a lot of time to think!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5161 - February 07, 2019, 06:41 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on February 07, 2019, 06:26 PM
    Hi Altara.

    You write:
    " So the Quranic texts are coming from this story."

    What did you mean by that?


    Ah my bad it's the other way around : so this story is coming from the Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5162 - February 07, 2019, 06:50 PM
    Quote
    so this story is coming from the Quranic texts.


    There is just not enough info in Quran to get to the stories of Sira and hadith. They must have been supplemented with other material.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5163 - February 07, 2019, 06:56 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 07, 2019, 06:36 PM
    Altara,

    Concerning 5th C-Arabs-Ismaelites
    This Ishmael thing seems something the Arabs had internalised and were proud of,


    Yes, that is why the Quran use it.

    Quote
    not just a label from outside. In an Arab environment "dotted with monasteries", with a clerical hierarchy losing control (see emergence of all these heresies-video of Von Sivers), something like the Quran being written in a dissenting monastery is a scenario I can imagine These monks in the monasteries clearly had a lot of time to think!

    .

    A monastery which says that Jesus is not the Son of God and not God? Why not.

    Quote
    They could have built on their own tradition (Ismael stories) that they  put to book (Quran) for the very first time.


    They build nothing, all is elaborated from Biblical and parabiblical texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5164 - February 07, 2019, 07:19 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    A monastery which says that Jesus is not the Son of God and not God? Why not


    A jew who got stranded in a monastery and subverted their theology?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5165 - February 07, 2019, 07:25 PM
    Hi Mundi.
    You wrote:
    "That Mohammed also had Christian and Jewish "followers" seems stretching it. The conquerors probably had them in their army but not sure that we can assume that the religious component was important to all."

    The debate about the first conquerors or "Believers" as Fred Donner want to call them, is very interesting. Donner seems to think that Christians and Jews were part of the ummah in the beginning and that changes were happening during the reign of Abd Al- Malik. Robert Hoyland thinks that Donner is sugarcoating the first Believers. They probably had Christians and Jews among their soldiers, but in what was their status and to what degree was it a religious movement?
    Some researcher think that the oldest Qurans that we have are from the time of Abd Al- Malik. Did they change it then, to fit with the policy at the moment?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5166 - February 07, 2019, 07:30 PM
    Mundi:

    "There is just not enough info in Quran to get to the stories of Sira and hadith. They must have been supplemented with other material."

    Fred Donner thinks that the Quran is mainly an ahistoric book. There are little concrete information there for the historians to work with (or for later Muslim scholars).
    So are the sira and hadith mainly buildt on myths or half truths?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5167 - February 07, 2019, 07:41 PM
    Bjoern,

    1/ Donner

    I think Donner has a lot of imagination. Facts are few for first decades...

    Maybe some Jews and Christians were attracted by the idea of conquest and advantages it brought. But making it an oecumenical movement seems like an anachronism.

    2/ Sira- Hadith

    Kernel of truth at best?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5168 - February 07, 2019, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 07, 2019, 07:19 PM
    Altara,

    A jew who got stranded in a monastery and subverted their theology?


    Not necessarily  jew or stranded. Outside Christianity (Chalcedonian, Monophysite, Nestorian) certainly.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5169 - February 07, 2019, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 07, 2019, 06:50 PM
    There is just not enough info in Quran to get to the stories of Sira and hadith.


    Speak for yourself as being unable to draw from the Quranic texts a story. And later others elaborating more on this story . And and so on. People have different abilities. I hope you had realized it, right?





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5170 - February 07, 2019, 08:49 PM
    Altara,

    1/
    Quote
    Not necessarily  jew or stranded. Outside Christianity (Chalcedonian, Monophysite, Nestorian) certainly.


    We need a jewish component to explain the non divinity of Christ and the biblical and Talmudic/Mishnah parts of the Quran.

    2/
    Quote
    Speak for you. People have different abilities. I hope you had realized it, right?


    Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5171 - February 07, 2019, 08:55 PM
    Quote
    There is just not enough info in Quran to get to the stories of Sira and hadith.


    Speak for yourself as being unable to draw from the Quranic texts a story. And later others elaborating more on this story . And and so on. People have different abilities.  There is enough info.

    Quote
    We need a jewish component to explain the non divinity of Christ and the biblical and Talmudic/Mishnah parts of the Quran.


    Why not. How do you explain the anti jewish stance in the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5172 - February 07, 2019, 09:12 PM
    Altara,

    1/Storytelling and the Quran:

    Of course the Quran can be used as a starting point for all kind of stories. Like the children game. One word is given and every child needs to add a sentence. At the end we get a complete story.

    But every child will get inspiration from the environment he lives in, from his education, from the stories he already knows. That's all I meant.

    2/ Anti Jewish stance:

    - later additions?
    or
    - converts often become very hostile to their former religion. So that would fit nicely with an author who changed allegiance for all kinds of reasons.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5173 - February 07, 2019, 09:57 PM
    Quote
    Of course the Quran can be used as a starting point for all kind of stories.


    I think this is the case for the biography and the rest. It s clear (for me) as there is no trace of Mecca before Islam, and the fact that in a "further north sanctuary" (Crone) the story of a man speaking to God would have spread, that all this story is fiction.

    Quote
    2/ Anti Jewish stance:

    - later additions?
    or
    - converts often become very hostile to their former religion. So that would fit nicely with an author who changed allegiance for all kinds of reasons.


    1/ My problem is that "later additions" is very very often used to explain what one cannot explain because it does not fit with with what one is convinced of. Gallez is a specialist of this kind of thing. He is not alone in this case, unfortunately. The thesis of the Quran as a layering text (Wansbrough et al.) where layers were added and constitute the Quranic texts as one have it since the earliest manuscripts we have, is a good mean to give a response to a text which appears to be not understandable. As it is not understandable the   "later additions"/interpolations/ layering text thesis whatever one call it respond in fact to the issue of the not understandable text. It is not understandable, because it is a layered text. That's the impression I have.  There are interpolations, of course. But that it be the constitution of the text as we have it in the  earliest manuscripts embarrassed me.

    Quote
    - converts often become very hostile to their former religion. So that would fit nicely with an author who changed allegiance for all kinds of reasons.


    Jews hostile to their religion? I'm dubious about that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5174 - February 07, 2019, 10:15 PM
    Altara,

    Layered test:

    There must be some editing.to the Quran. Dye is convinced of significant interpolations and I think he has a case.

    But I do think that window of opportunity to bring changes to the manuscript was closed very early on. If it was not, the text would have been more coherent and understandable (corrections/clarifications would have been applied)

    The extreme skeletal  text (without the diacritics even) was maybe as such on purpose? It prevented "people"outside of the group of  "illuminati" of using it for their own purposes? And that is why we find so little traces of the Quranic text in 7C? It was kept in a very special place far away from prying eyes on the top shelf of the book case?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5175 - February 07, 2019, 10:54 PM
    Quote
    There must be some editing.to the Quran. Dye is convinced of significant interpolations and I think he has a case.


    The discovery of Wansbrough of the layered text thesis  is possibly a response  to the fact that he could not make sense of it.  Gallez, Dye, Segovia and others are in the same path, following Wansbrough. It is an elegant  (and possible) theory about the Quran. The question I ask is that it appeared  because Wansbrough could not make sense of it? It resolves many issues of the text.

    Quote
    The extreme skeletal  text (without the diacritics even) was maybe as such on purpose? It prevented "people"outside of the group of  "illuminati" of using it for their own purposes? And that is why we find so little traces of the Quranic text in 7C? It was kept in a very special place far away from prying eyes on the top shelf of the book case?


    1/ It is possible yes. 2/ Yes also possible .3/Interesting explication.4/ And emerged publicly in due course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5176 - February 08, 2019, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: mundi on February 07, 2019, 06:50 PM
    There is just not enough info in Quran to get to the stories of Sira and hadith. They must have been supplemented with other material.


    Yep, from the same source that the Quran is coming from, sorry I meant sourceS.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5177 - February 08, 2019, 12:37 AM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on February 07, 2019, 04:53 PM
    Hi!
    Happy new year to all of you and thanks for all the interesting references.



    Happy New Year to you Asbjoern




    Quote
    I have been so lucky to borrow from my library,  Routledge Handbook on Early Islam, 2018. I recommend it very much. It has helped me a lot in understanding early Islam. There are articles here by Fred Donner, Nicolai Sinai, Herbert Berg, Stephen Shoemaker, David Cook, Markus Gross, Pavel Pavlovich and others.
    The article by Pavlovich on  the sira is on the internet and it is interesting. He writes this in his conclusion:


    The Markus Gross article is here     https://religiondocbox.com/Islam/73559772-Early-islam-an-alternative-scenario-of-its-emergence-markus-gross.html



    Quote
    ".... A stringent methodology of studying the literary sources such as isnad-cum-matn analysis
    has brought us to the end of the l st century AH; attempts to cross this "magic threshold" have
    so far produced ambiguous results.


    So what should be the logical conclusion of such a statement ?

    Quote
    Study of numi_smatic and epigraphic evidence suggests,
    quite objectively, that the figure of Mu]:iammad was infused with a new-found religious and
    political significance in the 680s,



    So what should be the logical conclusion of such a statement ?


    Quote
    ..... At the present stage of our knowledge, we may assert that the Arabian prophet was a historical figure,


    Possible though some scholars have argued about later interpolation but they are not convincing.

    Quote
    that he unleashed sweeping conquests,


    Historical data don't say that if you read the sources carefully.

    Quote
    and that he led an eschatological community


    That is the Gallez theory but reading the course of how events unfolded prove it wrong.

    Quote
    of a hybrid nature, comprising his followers alongside Jews and possibly Christians.


    Would these scholars say that persians in the 610's when they took over Syria, Egypt, etc were leading an eschatological community  of a hybrid nature ? Of course they wouldn't so it is surprising that they get to such a conclusion for the arab conquests.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5178 - February 08, 2019, 01:55 AM
    Quote
    so it is surprising that they get to such a conclusion for the arab conquests.


    Not so surprising. Logical in the paradigm  in which they are.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5179 - February 08, 2019, 05:09 AM
    When was the final redaction of the Quran? Nicolai Sinai writes that according to Robinson 2005, de Premare 2002 and Shoemaker 2012, it could be in the end of the 7th century, under Abd al-Malik.
    If it is so late, could it then be that they changed or added material, to fit with their views?
    The Roman and Persian empires were weakened and there occurred a power vacuum. Non Trinitarian Christians together with Jews and other Christians living in the fringe of the Roman empire used this possibility and took control. So in the beginning it maybe was mainly a political rebellion against the Romans.

    So under Abd al-Malik they sharpened their non Trinitarian views, rewrote the Quran to fit their views or political position?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5180 - February 08, 2019, 05:26 AM
    Marc S, thanks for interesting comments.
    I think that Pavlovitch's views are close to those of Stephen Shoemaker.
    Shoemaker has found 11 sources that claim that Muhammad took part in the invasion of Palestine around 634A.D., about two years after his death, according to Muslim traditions.
    Shoemaker thinks that Muhammad lead an eschatological movement and they thought doomsday would come when they entered Jerusalem. But nothing happened. So that may be the reason for the lacking of contemporary Muslim sources: they simply had to rearrange their thinking and find a new holy place to pray towards. First Petra and then later Mecca (may assumption)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5181 - February 08, 2019, 05:34 AM
    Quote
    When was the final redaction of the Quran? Nicolai Sinai writes that according to Robinson 2005, de Premare 2002 and Shoemaker 2012, it could be in the end of the 7th century, under Abd al-Malik.

     

    Most Islamologists now agree that this occurred by at least the late first/seventh century.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5182 - February 08, 2019, 06:18 AM
    Ok , Mahgraye.
     Sinai believes it happened under Uthman.

    Yes, I saw the dialog between you and Eleonore Cellard. I was surprised that she thinks codex PP could be the oldest and that it was made so late:

    "Thus, Déroche assumes that the copy of codex PP has been done between 50/ca 670 and 80/ca 700."


    https://twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1090219985891414016

    Sinai also writes much about all the early carbon dating of these manuscripts. It seems to be kind of mixing information.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5183 - February 08, 2019, 07:19 AM
    Layered text-fixation of text

    I think the lack of coherence of the text and the contradictions are a sign of the early canonisation of the text . It is not a sign that  layers and layers were added over time. That probably happened but only during a very short time.

    Muslims were running a world class empire from mid 7th C. State and religion seemed to go together from the start ( contrary to Christianity). If the text remained fluid for largest part of 7th C, modifications would have been applied to :

    1/ be directly usable in the state affairs. We see that parts like the inheritance rules were not applied until a lot later (see Crone's paper). If the Quran was a working document at the time, it would have been adapted.

    2/ to make more sense. We see in the bible that scribes sometimes applied "corrections"because they thought there was a mistake. That hasn't happened to the rasm not because there weren't any mistakes, the scribes were clearly forbidden to touch and modify it.

    So according to me, the textual problems of the Quran can only be explained by its early canonisation, not by its late fixation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5184 - February 08, 2019, 08:11 AM
    Mundi, do you think the early movement of "Believers" started as a religious group or as a miltant group to get rid of the Romans/ Persians?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5185 - February 08, 2019, 08:23 AM
    Bjoern,

    Quote
    do you think the early movement of "Believers" started as a religious group or as a miltant group to get rid of the Romans/ Persians?


    I think that is a very good question! Which was first? the chicken or the egg?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5186 - February 08, 2019, 10:25 AM
    Altara,

    On your remark that Quranic text could not have been written in a Christian monastery:

    Look at all the other sects and denominations still alive in ME. I am thinking of eg Druze and Alawites, but there are for sure others too. I don't know their history very well but should we assume that before the advent of Islam there were Jewish and Christian sects only, all faithful to at least their core beliefs (eg divinity of Jesus)? That this hyper diversity is something that only sprung up after Islam? Or was also in the 6C diversity of belief in ME such that could make the quranic christology something that could have been developed in a monastery?

    Honest question. Exploring the matter...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5187 - February 08, 2019, 10:57 AM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on February 08, 2019, 08:11 AM
    Mundi, do you think the early movement of "Believers" started as a religious group or as a miltant group to get rid of the Romans/ Persians?



    The early movement of Arabs  started as a group  to get rid of the  Persians for excellent reasons. See the von Sivers video in the previous page. No Mecca, no Kaba, no Zem Zem, no eschatological ideas, and especially, no "Prophet".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5188 - February 08, 2019, 12:24 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 08, 2019, 10:25 AM
    Altara,

    On your remark that Quranic text could not have been written in a Christian monastery:


    I do not exactly arrive directly at this conclusion. I just posing questions about what you say (been written in a Christian monastery) and the Quranic text who says the contrary of monastery habitants who are supposed to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God. Peoples devoted to pray  Jesus, the virgin Mary, the saints, etc., all the day and night. You responded "A jew who got stranded in a monastery and subverted their theology?. "  because  "We need a jewish component to explain the non divinity of Christ and the biblical and Talmudic/Mishnah parts of the Quran."
     How has he coming into the monastery? A jew who has seen an  Arabic Christian (Chalcedonian, Monophysite, Nestorian) monastery (Palestine/Syria/Iraq)  near a road and says to himself " I go there, I will frame the leaders of the monastery and I will write texts in Arabic to "subvert their theology"?  A " jew who got stranded ". Why not? How can you be stranded in a monastery and not run away? Or he was hungry and remains there?  And as time goes by he got the idea of Quranic texts?

    I do not dispute here the "need a jewish component to explain the non divinity of Christ and the biblical and Talmudic/Mishnah parts of the Quran" I just pose question about  the "how" of your description, I try to make sense of how practically this happened. And you see that I found many issues that you did not (still) enlighten.

    Then, I asked you : "How do you explain the anti jewish stance in the Quran?"  You said :" - converts often become very hostile to their former religion. So that would fit nicely with an author who changed allegiance for all kinds of reasons."  A jew convert to what (?)  This jew enters in a monastery to write texts with  "jewish component to explain the non divinity of Christ and the biblical and Talmudic/Mishnah parts of the Quran" a jew who remains jew then, right? He is not "converted" in anything, right? But, in the same time the text has anti jewish stance. So? Later additions/layers  (Wansbrough et al.) is the ad hoc explication because it is very difficult to make sense of this mess. It is what I pointed previously, the "layers thesis"  is the ad hoc thesis as constitutive of the Quranic texts which explain all that one not understands.



    Quote
    Look at all the other sects and denominations still alive in ME. I am thinking of eg Druze and Alawites, but there are for sure others too. I don't know their history very well but should we assume that before the advent of Islam there were Jewish and Christian sects only, all faithful to at least their core beliefs (eg divinity of Jesus)? That this hyper diversity is something that only sprung up after Islam? Or was also in the 6C diversity of belief in ME such that could make the quranic christology something that could have been developed in a monastery?

    Honest question. Exploring the matter...


    Mundi, I know well that it is honest question as you say.

    Quote
    Or was also in the 6C diversity of belief in ME such that could make the quranic christology something that could have been developed in a monastery?


    Why not. But not necessarily.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5189 - February 08, 2019, 12:30 PM
    Altara;

    [The early movement of Arabs  started as a group  to get rid of the  Persians for excellent reasons.]

    "Exellent reasons". Can you please elaborate?
     
    So you think that for instance Stephen Shoemaker is wrong in his descriptions of an eschatological movement?
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