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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1273119 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5010 - October 23, 2018, 03:24 PM

    Hgr calendar:

    I think Kerr's account is quite believable. But remains the question why adapt a lunar calendar in a world that had already progressed to a solar one. As you say Yeez, who was the intellectual behind this regression?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5011 - October 23, 2018, 05:02 PM

    Hgr calendar:

    I think Kerr's account is quite believable.........

    Robert Martin  Kerr  did a great job not just on that., not only that most of his work in & around Islam is  very thoughtful , thorough and  novel .  He always seems to think out of the box..and out of the crowd.

    well dear mundi  put  that article in the forum..   let the folks read it...... let me do that

    Quote
    Islam, Arabs and the Hijra by   Robert Martin  Kerr
     
    The traditional account of Muhammad’s life tells us that in June of 622, upon getting wind of an assassination plot against him at Mecca, he escaped with some of his loyal followers and eventually made his way to Yathrib/Medina.The traditionally accepted reference for this event is in Surah 9: 100, which in the translation of Pickthall reads:“
    Quote
    And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirūn and the Anṣār, and those who followed them in goodness—Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever.

    That is the supreme triumph.”In Islam, this event is viewed as so significant a turning-point that the Islamic calendar commences with the “year of the exile”  or al-hijra , not referred to in the Koran
     
    Umayyad Caliphate, a Byzantine shadow empire in which the Arabs and not the Romans were to rule the region. They marked the birth of an Arab dynasty—not an Islamic one—that would rule much of the former Roman and Sassanid Empires.This is what was meant by “the year of the Arabs.”

     The  hijra from Mecca to Medina described in Islamic sources has no historical underpinnings.

     
    well good stuff.. good one .. read it all by clicking the link

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5012 - October 23, 2018, 05:15 PM

    Thanks Yeez for reintroducing,

    I didn't post it again because we discussed it again previously. But I am sure we will gain new depths going over the stuff again. Maybe other people will give their opinion too.

    Zeca, are you still there? Do you have an expert opinion on Kerr's theory concerning AH?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5013 - October 23, 2018, 06:56 PM

    Thanks Yeez for reintroducing,

    no  no... Thank you mundi ..thank you guys in this folder.,   you guys are the ones who forced me to read the publications on the history & origins of Islam  otherwise I was only focusing on Islamic society., Politics and Islam ...  Quran and hadith.   And after reading Quran innumerable times  I am fairly certain  that there was no person as Muhammad,  Prophet of Islam either in Quran or in Hadith...  

    Hadith is  silly stuff  from Multiple Muhammads.,  no one knows who said what  and Quran has no Muhammad in it as the word "Muhammad" itself is not aproper name and  is an adjective that could be added to any name  who may be the  leader in the town...

    Anyways These folks who publish papers in decent journals must join and question the folks the one I see here

     http://www.assaif.org/index.php/content/download/71714/347948/version/1/file/Program+Agenda+(F).pdf

    https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/Documents/college-social-sciences/government-society/research/rad/working-papers/wp-20.pdf

    I mean these Islamic centers in educational institutes all over doing all sorts of silly stuff forgetting THE BASIS OF ISLAM  AND THE REASON FOR IT.. Islam is the simplest of all faiths Islam is just one line faith

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5014 - January 15, 2019, 04:44 PM

    I thought that this forum would never come back  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5015 - January 15, 2019, 04:45 PM

    Welcome back, dear Altara. It has been a long time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5016 - January 15, 2019, 05:17 PM

    Hello dear Mahgraye, thank you!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5017 - January 17, 2019, 09:58 PM

    Hi guys, Happy New year.

    I missed this place.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5018 - January 17, 2019, 10:05 PM

    Quote
    Hello dear Mahgraye, thank you!


    Thanks. I only realized this place was back when suddenly getting a notice via email that you, Altara, had made a comment, haha. Thank God that nothing was deleted on this group.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5019 - January 17, 2019, 10:07 PM

    Quote
    Hi guys, Happy New year.

    I missed this place.


    Thanks. Happy New year to you, too. Despite the frustration and disagreements, I too missed this place.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5020 - January 18, 2019, 07:19 PM

    Hi guys, Happy New year.

    I missed this place.


    I was the first to post I think, I just clicked like I did everyday since the shutdown (haha!) And I did not believed my eyes!  Happy New year Marc, and to all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5021 - January 21, 2019, 02:40 PM

    Was the Quran Preserved?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO8TynsAL0Q
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5022 - January 21, 2019, 02:51 PM

    Sameer and Gondal, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5023 - January 21, 2019, 02:58 PM

    A (very) important declaration of Guillaume Dye (in French but translatable with YT) who specifies in a long interview what is the state of its thoughts about the Quranic corpus in the end of 2018.

    The videos are not indexed in YT.

    https://campuslumieresdislam.fr/fr/blog/lislam-en-debats/comprendre-le-fait-religieux/le-coran-83
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5024 - January 21, 2019, 03:02 PM

    Yes. Saw it as soon as it got out. Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5025 - January 23, 2019, 06:08 PM

    Happy New Year Ladies and Gentlemen!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5026 - January 23, 2019, 06:08 PM

    At last, our dear Mundi is also back. Happy New Year to you too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5027 - January 23, 2019, 08:08 PM

    Hahaha ! Happy new year mundi !
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5028 - January 23, 2019, 08:29 PM

    Mundi, listen to the Guillaume Dye interview, it is very interesting.
    I would like to point out that it is not because I post his interview that I'm agree with him. I strongly disagree on some points. But my method is not to not listen (or read) what people says which is always interesting even if I disagree.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5029 - January 23, 2019, 08:30 PM

    It is impossible to edit message for me :  edited, there is no more "post" icon available with the "full edit" option.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5030 - January 24, 2019, 12:14 AM

    Interesting

    https://www.academia.edu/36256398/_A_Religion_Assembled_from_many_Religions_A_Syncretizing_Characterization_of_Islam_attributed_to_Cyril_of_Alexandria_Henoch_39_2017_287-305
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5031 - January 24, 2019, 06:43 AM

    Ian D. Morris (2018) - Mecca and Macoraba

    https://islamichistorycommons.org/mem/wp-content/uploads/sites/55/2018/11/UW-26-Morris.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5032 - January 24, 2019, 06:45 AM

    Julien Decharneux - La navigation dans le Coran: entre Psaumes et topoï tardo-antiques

    https://www.academia.edu/35902794/La_navigation_dans_le_Coran_entre_Psaumes_et_topo%C3%AF_tardo-antiques
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5033 - January 24, 2019, 07:41 AM

    Thanks for warm welcome M!

    Altara, I already listened to Dye a few weeks back. I think Dye really makes good rational points. It's not fresh in my memory anymore but is there anything specific that caught your attention? I can do a re-listen if you want to discuss in depth.

    Of course I dont expect you or anybody to agree with everything in a posted material. I think that goes without saying. In fact, that is the point I was always trying to make (unsuccessfully I am afraid...) when focussing on D. Gibson's work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5034 - January 24, 2019, 08:33 AM

    [
    Julien Decharneux - La navigation dans le Coran: entre Psaumes et topoï tardo-antiques

    https://www.academia.edu/35902794/La_navigation_dans_le_Coran_entre_Psaumes_et_topo%C3%AF_tardo-antiques



    Quite interesting article! I retain from his conclusion top page 24, 1st paragraph (can't copy  Huh?) that  he sees a closeness with the psalms which were very popular in the late antique monasteries where these psalms were read by heart and recited.

    So again, when I try to imagine where the Quran was written, what better fit than a monastery estranged from the official doctrine?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5035 - January 24, 2019, 08:40 AM

    Official doctrine of mainstream Christianity?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5036 - January 24, 2019, 08:44 AM

    Robert M. Kerr - Quranic Mileu: Correspondence with Mohammad Lamsiah

    Dear Lamsiah,

    It was, as always, very nice to hear your voice this morning. In the meantime, I have had a chance to look at everything again. You mentioned that there was criticism about the map in my article « The Language of the Koran ». As I mentioned, the map originates from a Durch Newspaper article by our friend Eildert Mulder (attached here), which was intended for a GENERAL Audience, this was later translated into French by Père Gallez, thence into English by Anouar Majid, into German by Markus Groß, and into Arabic by yourself. It seems to have taken on a life of its own. The map, was intended to give general geographical information for non-specialists. It was never intended to be used in a scientific context. It is unfortunate that my article upon which the interview and its translations are based, « Von der arabischen Lesekultur zur arabischen Schreibkultur » is not cited in academic works. One must make a distinction between non-specialist and specialised articles. In the long German article (attached here), I go into more detail.

    I used the term Arabia Petraea in a general, descriptive sense. Not as a designation of Roman provincial borders. These borders changed with administrative reforms. Indeed you will see that the ‹ classical › Roman Province named Arabia Petraea, encompasses roughly the modern State of Israel + the Sinai Peninsula, to its North lay Syria (<صور‎, I.e. the hinterland of Tyre; NOT from Assyria!!). Arabia Deserta and Arabia Felix were never Roman Provinces, just general descriptors. This is how Arabia Petraea was intended here.

    My argument is quite simple: a) to the South of Arabia Petraea we find but few Nabataean Inscriptions, excepting graffiti on the incense route and some oases. One must distinguish between formal epigrapy and informal epigraphy (such as graffiti) b) Ancient South Arabic and Ancient North Arabic inscriptions in pre-islamic times, use derivations of the Sabaic script (خط المسند); Ancient North Arabian is attested in Northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Southern Syria — If the Qur’an had been written in الحجاز, we would expect it to have been written in this script. For the inscriptions from this region see Khālid ibn Muḥammad ʿAbbās Askūbī ,ثموديييية من منطقة رم بين ثليثوات وقيعان الصنيع جنوبغرب تيماء Riyadh, 2007/1428 with numerous examples. c) The language (or Semitic dialect) which very closely resembles what became classical Arabic is Safaitic which seems concentrated in Southern Syria, Eastern Jordan and NW Saudi Arabia. Dialect geography makes clear that this was not the language of the Hedjaz.

    We now have two independent criteria: script and language (or dialect) distribution, both of which point to Syria and Jordan (the Roman provinces of Syria and Arabia Petraea) and not to Arabia Deserta or Felix.

    Another argument is that if the Qurʾān had emerged in the Hedjaz, the we would find traces of Christianity there. Outside of the Roman Empire there was no heresy (cf. the Nestorians in Asia). But in the Hedjaz, there are no traces of Christianity. Furthermore, the Christological debates, to which the Qur’an bears witness seem to be concentrated in groups which were concentrated in Syria (i.e. the human nature of Jesus, avoiding alcohol as a rejection of the Eucharist [Council of Gangra]; emphasis on Martyrdom (ܣܗܕܐ into Arabic as شهيد‎ etc.). But we would also need to explain all of the allusions to and from Jewish literature (such as the Talmud — if there were Jewish tribes in Arabia in the 7th century, which I very much doubt, then they would hardly have transported the Talmud on their camels —) which also points to Syria/Iraq (Babylonian Talmud). The decisive area is الجزيرة العربية in the old sense of the word.

    Here we can conclude that script, language and theology of the Qur’an, three independent strains of evidence, point to Syria/Iraq/Jordan as the place of origin of the Qur’an.

    This in turn explains why we find Syro-Aramaic influence (Fehllesungen) in the Qurʾān and why the theological vocabulary of the Qurʾān is largely borrowed from Eastern Aramaic (both Syriac and Jewish Babylonian Aramaic, the language of the Babylonian Talmud) are Eastern Aramaic dialects as Luxenberg (Syro-Aramaic Reading) and myself (Aramaisms in the Qurʾān and their significance, in Ibn Warraq ed., Christmas in the Qur’an) have shown (i.e. just as in Western European languages, such as French or German the Christian theological vocabulary is borrowed from Latin, the language of the missionaries whilst in Russian the borrowing is from Greek, the language of the missionaries to the Slavic peoples). This we also find in Ancient Ethiopic (Ge`ez) since Ethiopia was converted to Christianity by Syriac missionaries. Since there is no evidence of either Christianity (see above) or (Syriac) Christian missions to the Hedjaz, a Qurʾān originating in the Hedjaz is even more of an anomaly.
    Now we have four independent witnesses: script, language, theology and vocabulary. All point to the Syro-Mesopotamian region.

    As we discussed on the telephone, inscriptions must be viewed in the context in which they were written. So, for example, we find Palmyrene (a dialect of Aramaic) text on an inscription for a deceased Germanic lady in Britain: https://romaninscriptionsofbritain.org/inscriptions/1065

    Now nobody will ever claim that Palmyrene was a widely spoken language in Roman Britain! And Germanic Palmyrene speakers … But when we look closely at the text we see that a Palmyrene Aramaic speaker in the Roman Army married a Germanic woman who died whilst he was stationed in Britain. So the two Latin (!) inscriptions from the Yemen (http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epimap.php…) or Farasan Kabir (http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epimap.php…) do not indicate that Latin was widely spoken in the Red Sea or Southern Arabia (=Felix).

    This applies equally to inscriptions written in a (Ancient North) Arabic predecessor to the language of the Qurʾān. The biggest concentration of such in an official context (i.e. formal epigraphy, i.e. written by rulers such as the Namarah inscription (100 km SE of Damascus; https://www.islamic-awareness.org/…/inscriptio…/namarah.html) point to Syria, not the Hedjaz. Inscriptions, i.e. graffiti along the frankincense road through Arabia are manifold, and in various languages from various times. Such cannot be used to draw a map of the linguistic landscape of a given region at a given time.

    The concentration of inscriptions in a script relevant to the Qurʾān in a closely related earlier form of the language point to Syria, not to the Hedjaz.

    I add maps for your convenience. One could take the map you already have and recue the size of Arabia Petraea and add « Syria » to the North. I hope that this helps. If not, let me know.

    Godbless,

    Robert

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5037 - January 24, 2019, 09:10 AM

    About Kerr's reply:

    Quite convincing I think.

    Maybe he can add an archeological criterium too. No early Qibla points to the Hijaz/ Mecca...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5038 - January 24, 2019, 09:19 AM

    Yeah. Maybe. Kerr's point about the rejection of alcohol as being a reaction to the Council of Gangra, corresponding to certain Christian groups in Syria, perhaps heretical ones, seems to coincide with your point about the monasteries estranged from official doctrine of mainstream Christianity, assuming I understood you correctly?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5039 - January 24, 2019, 09:51 AM



    Quite interesting article! I retain from his conclusion top page 24, 1st paragraph (can't copy  Huh?) that  he sees a closeness with the psalms which were very popular in the late antique monasteries where these psalms were read by heart and recited.

    So again, when I try to imagine where the Quran was written, what better fit than a monastery estranged from the official doctrine?



    Quran written for Arabs monks? Or Arabs monks writing the Quran?
    1/Where?
    Where is the more concentration of monasteries with Arab monks?
    West Syria-Palestine,  Mesopotamia (Edessa) or Middle (Al Anbar) and South Iraq?


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