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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1272065 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4860 - October 15, 2018, 07:38 PM


    Marc,

    concerning Kabaa and Jewish religion:

    How can I reconcile Hawting's position on Jewish origin of the sanctuary  (http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/islam-quotes-juynboll-hawting.htm) and the explanation you gave Yeez?

    If I understood Hawting well, he sees a redefinition of certain terms associated with Mecca and the Kabba  because the meaning of certain terms was simply lost.

    Thus we don't have a continuation of a certain tradition but rather a redefinement and the invention of a new setting, to fit a certain terminology (Quran and other).

    Can you make sense of it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4861 - October 15, 2018, 09:00 PM

    I am not sure to say something different than what he said. I haven't read his whole paper because I found the style boring but this sentence "It appears that certain Muslim sanctuary ideas and certain names which Islam applies to its sanctuary at Mecca originated in a Jewish milieu, in the context of Jewish sanctuary ideas, and that they were then taken up by Islam and applied to the Meccan sanctuary.".

    Obviously I would disagree and replace "Meccan sanctuary" by "pagan milieu" but we say the same thing basically.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4862 - October 15, 2018, 09:22 PM

    Marc, you say:
    Quote
    Obviously I would disagree and replace "Meccan sanctuary" by "pagan milieu" but we say the same thing basically.


    That is imo the big difference. Imo according to Hawting the pagan part comes into the equation only partially. The Kabaa concept is the result  of a Jewish inspired text that was redefined in a new "islamic" way. No real continuity from the pagan to the islamic new setting. He writes:

    Quote
    It seems that the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca is the result of a sort of compromise between a pre-existing pagan sanctuary and sanctuary ideas which had developed first in a Jewish milieu.


    I think it is an interesting point of view.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4863 - October 15, 2018, 09:24 PM

    Quote
    Obviously I would disagree and replace "Meccan sanctuary" by "pagan milieu" but we say the same thing basically.


    "the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca continues to be seen as basically a continuation of the sanctuary of pagan times in the same place, and the islamization of that sanctuary continues to be associated with the prophetic career of Muhammad. [...] It seems that the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca is the result of a sort of compromise between a pre-existing pagan sanctuary and sanctuary ideas which had developed first in a Jewish milieu.  [...]   With the Maqam Ibrahim, as with most other aspects of the sanctuary and its rituals, the main concern of modern scholarship has been to explain its significance for the religion of the Jahiliyya, to detach it from the Muslim traditions which associate it with Abraham and to explain it as a relic of paganism. Wellhausen suggested that it was a pagan sacrificial stone, a suggestion which Gaudefroy-Demombynes supported by reference to the indentation or hollow which it contains ; Lammens preferred to see it as a bethel.   [...]   Lammens argued that it was originally an independent pagan sanctuary which Islam subordinated to the Ka'ba, others have given it some place in the performance of sacrifices in or near the Ka'ba.  [...]   Lammens argued that it was originally an independent pagan sanctuary which Islam subordinated to the Ka'ba, others have given it some place in the performance of sacrifices in or near the Ka'ba.   [...]  There is no reason why the Muslims should seek to hide the pagan past of the sanctuary, and indeed it is a prominent feature of the Muslim sanctuary traditions. The pagan deities and ceremonies are explained as aberrations which had been introduced in the period after Abraham had founded the sanctuary.  Generally, the features of the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca and the ceremonies which are performed there are explained as a continuation of those which had existed in pagan times but which had originated in the time of Abraham. [...] Nevertheless, the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca continues to be seen as basically a continuation of the sanctuary of pagan times in the same place, and the islamization of that sanctuary continues to be associated with the prophetic career of Muhammad.  "

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4864 - October 15, 2018, 09:33 PM

    There are certain names and terms which, with reference to the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca, have fixed and precise meanings but which sometimes occur in the traditions in the Qur'an and in the poetry in a way which conflicts with their usual meanings, or at least suggests that they are being used with a different sense

    Hawting
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4865 - October 15, 2018, 10:27 PM

    On your last quote Altara,

    I understand that what is mentioned in the Quran (eg maqam Ibrahim) needs to get a place in the newly designed sanctuary. But other terms mentioned in the later tradition, why not immediately get a clear, logical sanctuary vocabulary?

    Seen that the vocabulary seems fixed and there were forced attempts to give it a place, does this show that these extra-Quranic traditions can also be traced to proto-Islam?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4866 - October 15, 2018, 10:37 PM

    Here I would you refer all of you to Bruno Bonnet-Eymard discussion of Mecca and everything related to the cite (maqam Ibrahim, etc.).
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4867 - October 15, 2018, 10:44 PM

    Maggraye,

    What does Bonnet say? Can you summarize?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4868 - October 15, 2018, 10:50 PM

    Here is the video (watch from 6:25).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV1dKJmCL58
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4869 - October 15, 2018, 11:02 PM

    Dear Yeezevee, I am not sure about the message you are trying to convey but :

    Quote
    1- the Ka'ba/black stone rituals are coming from Jewish religion

            a) Yes the Ka'ba, its kiswah reminds of the 2nd Jewish temple and the veil hanged to it ; the circumbulation around the Ka'ba is a remlinder of the circumbulation in the Hakafot ritual
            b) No the Jewish religion didn't see women rubbing themselves against a stone in order to get more fertile


    2- the Ka'ba/ black stone rituals are coming from pagan rituals

           a) Yes the black stone with its vagina look showing a newborn head popping out is a reminder of the cult to Aphrodite
           b) No, See 1



    well I am not really conveying those messages  that are in  1 a, b and 2 a,b  dear Marc S..

    but this I  DID NOT KNOW

    Quote
    1- the Ka'ba/black stone rituals are coming from Jewish religion

            a) Yes the Ka'ba, its kiswah reminds of the 2nd Jewish temple and the veil hanged to it ; the circumbulation around the Ka'ba is a remlinder of the circumbulation in the Hakafot ritual
            b) No the Jewish religion didn't see women rubbing themselves against a stone in order to get more fertile


    2- the Ka'ba/ black stone rituals are coming from pagan rituals

           a) Yes the black stone with its vagina look showing a newborn head popping out is a reminder of the cult to Aphrodite

    that highlighted stuff is fascinating .,  

    So let me get this straight.,

     Jewish  women DO NOT rub themselves against a stone in order to get more fertile

    But did you see Muslim women rub themselves against a stone in order to get more fertile?

    Quote


    Hmm are they Muslim men or  Muslim women flocking to touch that black stone in the videos to get d=fertile??
      



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4870 - October 15, 2018, 11:07 PM

    Here is the video (watch from 6:25).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV1dKJmCL58


    hmm   let me counter that with this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5AFecCclgQ

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4871 - October 15, 2018, 11:11 PM

    Dr. Haytham Talat, haha. Funny clip, especially the thumbnail.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4872 - October 16, 2018, 12:01 AM

    Dr. Robert M. Kerr's latest statement on the Quranic milieu:

    Quote
    My argument is quite simple: a)to the South of Arabia Petraea we find but few Nabataean Inscriptions, excepting graffiti on the incense route and some oases. One must distinguish between formal epigrapy and informal epigraphy (such as graffiti) b) Ancient South Arabic and Ancient North Arabic inscriptions in pre-islamic times, use derivationsof the Sabaic script (خط المسند); Ancient North Arabian is attested in Northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Southern Syria — If the Qur’an had been written in الحجاز, we would expect it to have been written in this script. For the inscriptions from this region see Khālid ibn Muḥammad ʻAbbās Askūbī ,ثموديييية من منطقة رم بين ثليثوات وقيعان الصنيع جنوبغرب تيماء Riyadh, 2007/1428 with numerous examples. c) The language (or Semitic dialect) which very closely resembles what became classical Arabic is Safaitic which seems concentrated in Southern Syria, Eastern Jordan and NW Saudi Arabia. Dialect geography makes clear that this was not the language of the Hedjaz.

    We now have two independent citreria: script and language (or dialect) distribution, both of which point to Syria and Jordan (the Roman provinces of Syria and Arabia Petraea) and not to Arabia deserta or felix.

    Another argument, is that if the Qur’an had emerged in the Hedjaz, the we would find traces of Christianity there. Outside of the Roman Empire there was no heresy (cf. the Nestorians in Asia). But in the Hedjaz there are no traces of Christianity. Furthermore, the Christological debates, to which the Qur’an bears witness seem to be concentrated in groups which were concentrated in Syria (i.e. the human nature of Jesus, avoiding alcohol as a rejection of the Eucharist [Council of Gangara]; emphasis on Martyrdom (ܣܗܕܐ into Arabic as شهيد‎ etc.). But we would also need to explain all of the allusions to and from Jewish literature (such as the Talmud — if there were Jewish tribes in Arabia in the 7th century, which I very much doubt, then they would hardly have transported the Talmud on their camels —) which also points to Syria/Iraq (Babylonian Talmud). The decisive area is الجزيرة العربية in the old sense of the word.

    Here we can conclude that script, language and theology of the Qur’an, three independent strains of evidence, point to Syria/Iraq/Jordan as the place of origin of the Qur’an.

    This in turn explains why we find Syro-Aramaic influence (Fehllesungen) in the Qur’an and why the theological vocabulary of the Qur’an is largely borrowed from Eastern Aramaic (both Syriac and Jewish Babylonian Aramaic, the language of the Babylonian Talmud) are Eastern Aramaic dialects as Luxenberg (Syro-Aramaic Reading) and myself (Aramaisms in the Qur’an and their significance, in Ibn Waraq ed., Christmas in the Qur’an) have shown (i.e. just as in Western European languages, such as French or German the Christian theological vocabulary is borrowed from Latin, the language of the missionaries whilst in Russian the borrowing is from Greek, the language of the missionaries to the Slavic peoples). This we also find in Ancient Ethiopic (Ge`ez) since Ethiopia was converted to Christianity by Syriac missionaries. Since there is no evidence of either Christianity (see above) or (Syriac) Christian missions to the Hedjaz, a Qur’an originating in the Hedjaz is even more of an anomaly.

    Now we have four independent witnesses: script, language, theology and vocabulary. All point to the Syroo-Mesopotamian region.

    As we discussed on the telephone, inscriptions must be viewed in the context in which they were written. So, for example, we find Palmyrene (a dialect of Aramaic) text on an inscription for a deceased Germanic lady in Britain: https://romaninscriptionsofbritain.org/inscriptions/1065
    Now nobody will ever claim that Palmyrene was a widely spoken language in Roman Britain! And Germanic Palmyrene speakers … But when we look closely at the text we see that a Palmyrene Aramaic speaker in the Roman Army married a Germanic woman who died whilst he was stationed in Britain. So the two Latin (!) inscriptions from the Yemen (http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epimap.php…) or Farasan Kabir (http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epimap.php…) do not indicate that Latin was widely spoken in the Red Sea or Southern Arabia (=Felix).

    This applies equally to inscriptions written in a (Ancient North) Arabic predecessor to the language of the Qur’an. The biggest concentration of such in an official context (i.e. formal epigraphy, i.e. written by rulers such as the Namarah inscription (100 km SE of Damascus; https://www.islamic-awareness.org/…/inscriptio…/namarah.html) point to Syria, not the Hedjaz. Inscriptions, i.e. graffiti along the frankincense road through Arabia are manifold, and in various languages from various times. Such cannot be used to draw a map of the linguistic landscape of a given region at a given time.

    The concentration of inscriptions in a script relevant to the Qur’an in a closely related earlier form of the language point to Syria, not to the Hedjaz.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4873 - October 16, 2018, 08:07 AM

    Do you have the reference?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4874 - October 16, 2018, 08:35 AM

    On your last quote Altara,

    I understand that what is mentioned in the Quran (eg maqam Ibrahim) needs to get a place in the newly designed sanctuary. But other terms mentioned in the later tradition, why not immediately get a clear, logical sanctuary vocabulary?


    Because they did not have a clear understanding of the Quranic words hence some words derived (al-Ḥijr, al-Masjid al-Haram,etc) from it that the (9th c.) guys try to apply to "Mecca" and his history (Abraham, etc) according to what say the Quran. The Hawting article just describe the mess, the contradictions, etc.

    Quote
    Seen that the vocabulary seems fixed and there were forced attempts to give it a place,


    Fixed in the Quran, nowhere else. They try to make sense of it to explain the history of "Mecca"(Abraham, etc) . Because they believe it's true, like they believe that the conquest is the result of the action of a "prophet" in Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem responsible of the production of the Quran whereas there is no relation because other (natural) events happened to explain them.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4875 - October 16, 2018, 08:43 AM

    In his comment Mahgraye quote Kerr who claim that the Quran must have originated in Syria. But probably the oldest Quran we know is found in Sana'a in Yemen and written in a Hijazi style. How come?

    As far as I know, there are about 65 geographical places mentioned in the Quran and they are mostly northwest of Hijaz. So this points to that the Quran didn't originate in Hijaz, but further north.
    What shall I believe?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4876 - October 16, 2018, 09:06 AM

    The second oldest manuscript is located in France but was written in Syria. Where a manuscript is found has no bearing on where it originated. I can give other similar examples and additional ones from Biblical studies as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4877 - October 16, 2018, 09:06 AM

    Altara - Here is the source: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=716616958707064&id=100010762980879
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4878 - October 16, 2018, 09:13 AM

    In his comment Mahgraye quote Kerr who claim that the Quran must have originated in Syria. But probably the oldest Quran we know is found in Sana'a in Yemen and written in a Hijazi style. How come?

    As far as I know, there are about 65 geographical places mentioned in the Quran and they are mostly northwest of Hijaz. So this points to that the Quran didn't originate in Hijaz, but further north.
    What shall I believe?

    if you just read through A wiki  link  Early Quranic manuscripts will  clarify your doubts dear Asbjoern1958

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4879 - October 16, 2018, 09:22 AM

    Quote
    In his comment Mahgraye quote Kerr who claim that the Quran must have originated in Syria. But probably the oldest Quran we know is found in Sana'a in Yemen and written in a Hijazi style. How come?


    "Hijazi style" is an expression invented in the 19th c. by Michele Amari  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Amari
    This guy has applied this expression "Hijazi style" to script of manuscripts which do not , I insist, do not come from "Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem Kaba" as nothing has been found there, thus confusing and brainswashing all the scholarship, and whose the result is to make them thinking, as they always heard "Hijazi" that the Muslim narrative is true.

    There is no "Hijazi style" that does not exist related to the "Hijaz".

    Quote
    What shall I believe?


    Me, and :

    François Déroche
    Qurʾans of the Umayyads
    A First Overview. p.75. :
    Quote
    In his description of the fragment Paris, BnF, Arabe 330, f. 11 to 19, Michele Amari stated that it was written in a “script of the Hidjâz, verging towards the Kufic script” and suggested a date in the third century ah/ninth century AD.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4880 - October 16, 2018, 09:53 AM



    Do you have a date on this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4881 - October 16, 2018, 09:54 AM

    One or two days. Very recent.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4882 - October 16, 2018, 10:25 AM

    Quote
    One or two days. Very recent.


    Lamsiah should ask him why he does not publish in English any more...  apart in Facebook Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4883 - October 16, 2018, 10:26 AM

    Estelle Whelan called the hijazid script a "scholarly artifact".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4884 - October 16, 2018, 10:26 AM

    Quote
    Lamsiah should ask him why he does not publish in English any more...


    Since when did he? Everything he writes is public and clear. He pulls no punches at all. And as you can see, the correspondence Lamsiah posted is in English for the public. His upcoming publication will also be available in English. Besides, the question is meaningless.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4885 - October 16, 2018, 10:31 AM

    Quote
    Since when did he?


    Since he was fired from his Canadian University and went to Germany University . Look at his academia page where he publishes : non English stuff, always German.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4886 - October 16, 2018, 10:34 AM

    Is he not German himself? And a member of Inarah? All their publications are in German by default. Besides, all their volumes are currently being translated into English? Again, it does not mean anything.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4887 - October 16, 2018, 11:35 AM

    Quote
    Is he not German himself?


    I do not think so, Canadian.

    Quote
    And a member of Inarah?All their publications are in German by default.


    Inarah has nothing to see with a German University, it's a group of people originated in Germany, that's all. Gallez and de Prémare are not German and wrote in the Inarah publication.
    Quote
    Again, it does not mean anything.

    I just note here that he does not publish any more in English since he is in a German University in Germany. It's a fact. You cannot say no, it's not true. It is. Look at his academia page where he publishes stuff since he is in Germany : non English stuff, always German.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4888 - October 16, 2018, 11:40 AM

    I know he mostly publishes in German. I do not dispute that. I just don't like when people read into that fact.

    As for Gallez, yes, he is technically a member of Inarah but he rejects (and even wrote a refutation) of their main thesis. This does not change the fact that Inarah publications are in German. Some have been translated into English, and the others are currently being translated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4889 - October 16, 2018, 11:58 AM

    Quote
    I know he mostly publishes in German. I do not dispute that. I just don't like when people read into that fact.

    Lamsiah should ask him why he does not publish in English any more...
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