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Qur'anic studies today
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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4740 - October 11, 2018, 01:49 PM

    Yeez,

    Reading the whole Quran is way too boring, I didnt manage yet. Altara would say that others dont find it boring, that I shouldnt project..

    Maybe, but I look around at people surrounding me and try to learn about humane nature, cant really imagine that these highly virile first conquesters of 1400 yrs ago would have had much more patience than me...

    Altara,

    In my quest for the audience of the Quran, I try to understand (and maybe refute) one of the starting points of the modern scholars. They project proto-muslims as listening to Mohammed reciting the Quran on a hill, the crowd around him, and understanding what he is talking about. This is their starting point to get more info on where the Quran emerged, and what that society looked like. It is a common view from most scholars, and I cant get my head around it how one can believe that.

    I think between us, there is a lot of misunderstanding on terminology. Of course your evasive answers don't help in the discussions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4741 - October 11, 2018, 01:59 PM

    Yeez,

    Reading the whole Quran is way too boring, I didnt manage yet. Altara would say that others dont find it boring, that I shouldnt project..

      So you are reading only few  selective verses that you think are war mongering and hate filled ...   Well then you can not say   "Surah 2 is that.. Surah 5 is this   and surah X is bad...etc.."

    Quote
    Maybe, but I look around at people surrounding me and try to learn about humane nature, cant really imagine that these highly virile first conquesters of 1400 yrs ago would have had much more patience than me...

    you are right They DID NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE etall    and they did not read Quran ., In fact most of the Quran is very little to do with wars and conquests .. it is true there are some stupid verses in it.,    if you consider those stupid  verses  ARE WORDS SOME allah/god then they will become dangerous..

    Even today.,  Forget Non-Muslims  who may hate Muslims and Islam for some odd reasons but  I bet 99% of well educated Muslim folks did not/do not read Quran ., If few of them  read it they use their heart NOT BRAIN ...

    And that is one good reason  why Islam followers and Muslim folks are in a BIG MESS in 21st century ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4742 - October 11, 2018, 02:02 PM

    Yeez,

    I didnt say Sura 2 to 5 is bad. I say it doesn't correspond with orthodox christian theology, not at all. That's why if the production environment is monastic, it must have been in a dissident community.

    PS: the heart doesnt think, the brain does.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4743 - October 11, 2018, 02:06 PM

    Yeez,

    I didnt say Sura 2 to 5 is bad. I say it doesn't correspond with orthodox christian theology, not at all. That's why if the production environment is monastic, it must have been in a dissident community.

    well whole Sura 2 to 5 or some selective verses in them??
    Quote
    PS: the heart doesnt think, the brain does.

     Cheesy   well that is for you  but if you ask any faith head FROM ANY FAITHS they will sing you a song about heart...


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4744 - October 11, 2018, 02:17 PM

    Hello Altara   I didn't get that statement .. I wonder whether you wrote that or copy/pasted from some other's post

     You do not need to understand the entire text as a whole, to understand passages of it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4745 - October 11, 2018, 02:30 PM

    You do not need to understand the entire text as a whole, to understand passages of it.

    Oh I agree with that..

    In fact reading whole biiig fat  surah is not necessary to understand a given passage in it that is the reason i often make passages from Quran., and you  can see  that in this folder .

    But It is also important to learn to make correct passages in a surah  to make sense out of those verses ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4746 - October 11, 2018, 03:51 PM


    We never know what was added, removed. Dye has some good ideas about the end of sura(s). (cf. Réflexions méthodologiques...)
    About "islamized". For me,  there is  no  a later "islamization" of the Quran which would have been a (kind) of "Christian" text before as some scholars think.


    The Quran has a strong jewish layer so saying it was a Christian text seems problematic ; we can ask ourselves if there were 2 different Qurans (a jewish one and a Christian one) that were fused together when islam needed to be promulgated.

    Quote
    Islamization

    The Sana'a palimpsets suggest an alteration to the quaranic text in order to make it more in line with islamic tradition.


    Quote
    The Persian tafsir writers are late : 750 (officially...) for the Muqatil one.
     Sense of the texts was distorted : because understand the entire text is not just understand some passages. In its entirety it is an non really understandable text : therefore the sunna is needed.


    The sunna is needed for the islamization of the Quran , not to understand what the text meant at the start.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4747 - October 11, 2018, 04:11 PM

    ......The sunna is needed for the islamization of the Quran , not to understand what the text meant at the start. ..................

    Nope.... Sunnah is  need to Islamize public or convert cultures of countries ...  Sunnah is very little to do with Quran..  It is possible some nonsense from sunnah is added in to that Quran teachings  by some  preachers/Muhammads

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4748 - October 11, 2018, 04:21 PM



    Altara,

    In my quest for the audience of the Quran, I try to understand (and maybe refute) one of the starting points of the modern scholars.


    Is the topic here is still that? I mean, what say the modern scholars? It is yours, not mine anymore .  I've read them all, there is nothing really interesting apart Dye, Reynolds, Cuypers, even Sinai.  We know all, that what they say (especially about the "starting points") is biased as they cannot say what they want about the official version : Mecca/Medina/Kaba.
    So here, in this forum (for me...)  it is not the place to refute them. I do not need that. There's nothing to refute. Apart here and there this or that. An that's all.


    Quote
    I think between us, there is a lot of misunderstanding on terminology. Of course your evasive answers don't help in the discussions.


    I'm sorry but I do not see the relation between terminology and evasive answers. I cannot see  how one proceeds from the other.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4749 - October 11, 2018, 04:38 PM

    The Quran has a strong jewish layer so saying it was a Christian text seems problematic


    This is the point of some scholars ; Luling, Luxenberg, etc.  

    Quote
    ; we can ask ourselves if there were 2 different Qurans (a jewish one and a Christian one) that were fused together when islam needed to be promulgated.


    I've not read this kind of fusion ; only the one above.

    Quote
    The Sana'a palimpsets suggest an alteration to the Quranic text in order to make it more in line with islamic tradition.


    I do not think so ; the words replaced in Sanaa are the synonyms of the words found in the "Utman" text. The meaning is preserved, there is no alteration apart changing a word by another word which say the same thing. The rest is an other order of the sura and it change nothing to the Utmanic text as the Quran to be read does not need an "order'.


    Quote
    The sunna is needed for the islamization of the Quran

     ,

    Nope, to understand it.

     
    Quote
    not to understand what the text meant at the start.


    To give a context to the Quranic text . Giving a context is a way to understand it.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4750 - October 11, 2018, 06:26 PM

    ...................
    I do not think so ; the words replaced in Sanaa are the synonyms of the words found in the "Utman" text. The meaning is preserved, there is no alteration apart changing a word by another word which say the same thing. The rest is an other order of the sura and it change nothing to the Utmanic text as the Quran to be read does not need an "order'..................

     Hello Altara  that is a very important point for novice Quran explorers like me ., I wonder whether you yourself looked in to those manuscripts or did you read them in some books and publications.,,


    I would greatly appreciate any links on them preferably in English   but French... German is Ok 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4751 - October 11, 2018, 06:40 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfhfa8T2VR0
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4752 - October 11, 2018, 07:27 PM

    Quote
    That is the reason I am trying to get some one atleast  to look carefully in to those existing early manuscripts of Quran around the globe..


    They have, and they still continue to do so. Not sure why you are not aware of textual critics.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4753 - October 11, 2018, 07:28 PM

    Quote
    I would greatly appreciate any links on them preferably in English   but French... German is Ok


    A list of variants can be found in Behnam Sadeghi & Uwe Bergmann, “The Codex of a Companion of the Prophet and the Qurʾān of the Prophet,” Arabica 57 (2010), pp. 417–33; Mohammad Lamsiah, Makhṭūṭāt al-Qurʾān: madkhal li-dirāsat al-makhṭūṭāt al-qadīma, Canada, 2017, p. 210, 214 and 218 (Arabic).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4754 - October 11, 2018, 07:35 PM

    God, this filthy Jay Smith is such as lying, ignorant, stupid, disingenuous, illiterate, cringeworthy, Christian apologist. The same goes for his mentally retarded lapdog, Al Fadi. This guy is such a joke that his P.hD. was rejected for being so bad, haha. Yet, he still goes around saying he studied under great scholars.

    What is so funny is that they are so damn inconsistent. Do you guys really think they apply the same standards to their own scripture? Nope. As apologists, they don't. Both are nothing but Bible-thumping Christians who don't even read the sources they cite.

    Instead of just presenting their own view by citing scholarly sources accurately (they don't), they sit and promulgate conspiracy theories and impugn the character of the scholars they cite, speculating about their intentions, and so on.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4755 - October 11, 2018, 08:00 PM

    Nope.... Sunnah is  need to Islamize public or convert cultures of countries ...  Sunnah is very little to do with Quran..  It is possible some nonsense from sunnah is added in to that Quran teachings  by some  preachers/Muhammads


    You didn't read me because we are saying the same thing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4756 - October 11, 2018, 08:12 PM

    This is the point of some scholars ; Luling, Luxenberg, etc.  

    I've not read this kind of fusion ; only the one above.


    One non muslim source recount the dialogue between Amr ibn al As and the patriarch John where it is said that a copy of the Gospels is made and handed to that emir ; the event seems a-historical but who knows.

    Quote
    I do not think so ; the words replaced in Sanaa are the synonyms of the words found in the "Utman" text. The meaning is preserved, there is no alteration apart changing a word by another word which say the same thing. The rest is an other order of the sura and it change nothing to the Utmanic text as the Quran to be read does not need an "order'.


    It is part of the islamization.  ,

    Quote
    Nope, to understand it.


    Wrong

    Quote

    To give a context to the Quranic text . Giving a context is a way to understand it.


    Wrong again. Yes the intent is to give a context so that a link is born between Muhammad and the Quran and to explain the revelation. BUT, there was NO revelation, so no link between Muhammad and the Quran and therefore it is not trying to give a context but to islamize the Quran, the Quran that has nothing to do with today's islam.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4757 - October 11, 2018, 08:27 PM

    Quote
    It is part of the islamization.  ,

    See the video above ; there is no islamization in relation to the Utmanic one : same Allah, same prophet, etc.Changing a word  (or expression) by another word  (or expression) which say grosso modo  the same thing is not islamization .


    Quote
    Wrong again. Yes the intent is to give a context so that a link is born between Muhammad and the Quran and to explain the revelation.


    And the "revelation" (true or not) consists in one text which have to be enlightened and explained. Giving a context (true or not), a scholar does not care of that, it is not its problem,   is a way to understand it ; that is  what do the sunna and the narratives.

     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4758 - October 11, 2018, 08:37 PM

    He who at the time of the discovery was entrusted with their analysis, Dr. Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, emeritus Lecturer at the University of Saarland (Germany), has conceded that the variants are indeed minor and “do not touch the Qurʾān itself”, but are instead orthographic, dealing with mere “differences in the way words are spelled”.

    This is an unfinished text of mine but Altara concluded the matter and said it the best.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4759 - October 11, 2018, 09:11 PM

    I only say what I think.  I ascertain that Marc's  statement of Utmanic text would be an islamization of the Sanaa one is clearly what we do not see when we compare the two texts. The only issue is to understand how happened thoses differences. I already said my idea about it (search in my 997 posts)  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4760 - October 11, 2018, 09:38 PM

    Quote
    I only say what I think.  I ascertain that Marc's statement of Utmanic text would be an Islamization of the Sanaa one is clear what we do not see when we compare the two texts. The only issue is to understand how happened those differences.


    100 % agree. I really like how Altara casually says "Hey, just look through the 900 pages of content" without providing concrete references, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4761 - October 11, 2018, 11:45 PM

    Haha!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4762 - October 12, 2018, 06:39 AM

    There is a new book about Muhammad that just has been published. What do you think about Juan Cole´s new project and about his comments on Reddit?
    From Kha Andani´s Facebook page:
    "“This book puts forward a reinterpretation of early Islam as a movement strongly inflected with values of peacemaking that was reacting against the slaughter of the decades-long war and attendant religious strife. From the Crusades to colonialism, conflicts between Christians and Muslims led to a concentration among writers of European heritage on war and Islam, leaving the dimension of peace and cooperation neglected.2 Both peace and war are present in the Qur’an, just as they are in the Bible, and both will be analyzed below, but the focus here is on peace.

    This book studies the Qur’an in its historical context rather than trying to explain what Muslims believe about their scripture.3 The Qur’an insists on liberty of conscience and forbearance toward enemies, and it prohibits unprovoked, aggressive warfare. It promises salvation to all righteous monotheists and not just to followers of the prophet Muhammad. That many outsiders and a not inconsiderable number of adherents have associated it with none of these values, and indeed have often interpreted it as upholding the converse, demonstrates how badly it has been understood. The misapprehensions came about for many reasons, including the imperial ideologies of the later Christian Byzantine and Muslim Abbasid empires, difficulties in interpreting the text, and a failure to read it against contemporary Roman and Iranian texts, a procedure that allows us to compare and contrast its values and concerns with those of others living in that era.4

    The Iranian invasion of Roman territory from 603 forward threatened the independence of western Arabia, where Muhammad was based. The Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem in 614 struck contemporaries as apocalyptic and provoked a mystical response from the Prophet. A close reading of the Qur’an shows that a profound distress at the carnage of the age led Muhammad to spend the first half of his prophetic career (610–622) imagining an alternative sort of society, one firmly grounded in practices of peace. The Qur’an repeatedly instructs Believers to “repel evil with good,” pardon their persecutors, and wish peace on those who harassed them. These verses have as their greater context the outbreak of struggles among Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, and a remnant of pagans, who were partisans in the clash of empires raging around them. Muhammad in these years resembles much more the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount than is usually admitted.

    Scholars have increasingly also tied the second half of Muhammad’s career, 622–632, to the maneuverings of Rome and Iran, even suggesting that his move to Medina from his hometown of Mecca may have been connected to Roman diplomacy.5 I argue that Muslims in the time of the Prophet were explicitly allied with the Christian emperor Herakleios (r. 610–641) and indeed that Muhammad saw his defensive battles against truculent pagans in places such as Badr and Uhud in West Arabia as protecting Roman churches in Transjordan and Syria, to the north. It is likely these militant Arabian pagans had allied with the Iranian king of kings.

    In short, Islam is, no less than Christianity, a Western religion that initially grew up in the Roman Empire. Moreover, Muhammad saw himself as an ally of the West. The Prophet in those years of pagan attacks did not abandon his option for peace but moved toward a doctrine of just war similar to that of Cicero and late-antique Christian thinkers. He repeatedly sued for peace with a bellicose Mecca, but when that failed he organized Medina for self-defense in the face of a determined pagan foe. The Qur’an insists that aggressive warfare is wrong and that if the enemy seeks an armistice, Muslims are bound to accept the entreaty. This disallowing of aggressive war and search for a resolution even in the midst of violent conflict justifies the title “prophet of peace,” even if Muhammad was occasionally forced into a defensive campaign. The Qur’an contains a doctrine of just war but not of holy war and does not use the word jihad with that latter connotation. It views war as an unfortunate necessity when innocents, and the freedom of conscience, are threatened. It strictly forbids vigilantism and equates premeditated killing of noncombatants with genocide, paraphrasing in this regard Jewish commentaries on the Bible in the Jerusalem Talmud.6

    The Qur’an, read judiciously alongside later histories, suggests that during Muhammad’s lifetime, Islam spread peacefully in the major cities of Western Arabia. The soft power of the Qur’an’s spiritual message has typically been underestimated in most treatments of this period. The image of Muhammad and very early Islam that emerges from a careful reading of the Qur’an on peace-related themes contradicts not only widely held Western views but even much of the later Muslim historiographical tradition. This finding should come as no surprise. Life in medieval feudal societies did not encourage pacific theologies, and Muslims in later empires lost touch with the realities of the early seventh century. What if we read Jesus’s life and thought only through the lens of Pope Urban II, who launched the sanguinary Crusades in the Holy Land with the cry, “God wills it!”?7

    Even today, many scholars of early Islam seem unduly deferential to later medieval interpreters. Others radically reject all information in those sources, treating Muslim histories differently from Byzantine or Carolingian chronicles, once again condemning non-Europeans to being a people without a history. The Qur’an tells us about that history if we will listen to it, and it tells us what is plausible in the later biographies of the Prophet."https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/juan-cole/muhammad/9781568587837/?fbclid=IwAR2meUSxUOYg5NeK1OtUPuPW1rAkUuHE3o8gJClX1tCBlnNa43HpV9M2rDE
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4763 - October 12, 2018, 06:41 AM

    Comments on Reddit:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9mq0eo/i_am_juan_cole_author_of_muhammad_prophet_of/?fbclid=IwAR2x5k0g9IyTRpAmVIf9hbBXqRKAMNPivbfCVftx
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4764 - October 12, 2018, 07:46 AM

    Bjorn,

    Cole is a converted "bahai" and you don't become that without that ideology  (or whatever ideology he adheres to now) seeping through in the work.

    He knows a lot more about the life and times of Mohammed than historians like Dye know.

    But his point on the seemingly relatively peaceful overtake of parts of Byzantine empire is interesting and corresponds with archeology.   Was that due to an ideology, a lack of ideology, the passivity of the conquered, I dont know.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4765 - October 12, 2018, 08:00 AM

    Mundi, thanks for information.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4766 - October 12, 2018, 08:54 AM


    This book studies the Qur’an in its historical context rather than trying to explain what Muslims believe about their scripture.3 The Qur’an insists on liberty of conscience and forbearance toward enemies, and it prohibits unprovoked, aggressive warfare. It promises salvation to all righteous monotheists and not just to followers of the prophet Muhammad.


    Stop here as there is no  "prophet Muhammad". The teachings of the Quran might be whatever we want, they are not responsible as such of the first conquests (630-700) and it is in the second part that it justifies them since in the Quran the figure of a "prophet" is depicted to have fight one way or another, whatever his reasons to impose Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4767 - October 12, 2018, 09:43 AM

    There is a new book about Muhammad that just has been published. .......... Juan Cole´s new project a..........
     


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRv6B0zlzP0

    https://www.juancole.com/2018/08/muhammad-islamic-interview.html

    https://www.juancole.com/religion/islam


    that guy is NOT a Historian...  not even an amateur historian  .. HE IS A FICTIONAL STORY TELLER and a faith head

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4768 - October 12, 2018, 09:58 AM

    There is a new book about Muhammad that just has been published. What do you think about Juan Cole´s new project and about his comments on Reddit?



    Sounds like an attempt to promote islam as the religion of peace and to de-islamize the Quran and Muhammad in order to make that religion more attractive to western people.

    But the issue is that Quran was islamized so, if someone wants to get rid of the islamic interpretation, it also needs to re-evaluate Muhammad connection to it, and the answer will be "no connection, no Muhammad ever existed " so no revelation.  ,

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4769 - October 12, 2018, 10:50 AM

    Quote
    religion of peace

    :

    By fixing the Quranic 7th C text  as the perfect word of God for all ages, Islam being the religion of peace becomes ridiculous.

    But there is something in what Yeez said and what Cole is promoting. There are peaceful parts in the Quran and probably to 7th C standards, it was "not that bad". Could "the dissident monks" or whoever wrote it, really have had a benign vision? Is seeing the Quran as a war vademecum too harsh? Could the motive to have written it have been "to make the world a better place"?

    Or what could have been the motive?
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