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Qur'anic studies today
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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4710 - October 10, 2018, 03:15 PM

    Not sure because you say about in support of Islam's origins. If it is about Islam's origins, then maybe. Scholars have used hadith's critically to infer about Islam's origins (e.g. Shoemaker). Other mostly analyze traditions, date, etc. Early Islam and Quranic Studies are now separate fields from Hadith Studies. But yes, scholars use hadith's as secondary evidence, dating them, analysing them, and so on.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4711 - October 10, 2018, 03:45 PM

    well....  you are not helping dear Altara ...,

     

    I'm not here to help dear yeezevee!!! I'm here to make asking questions!!!

    Quote
    let me ask you different simple question....I wonder whether you know any publication preferably in English that highlights Verses of Quran which also present in Hadith?  .


    Nope. Why? Because (for me...) it is not interesting...


    Quote
    may be  Mahgraye has the answer to that question...


    May be indeed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4712 - October 10, 2018, 04:20 PM

    Important events.   Wink


    Do they really matter ?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4713 - October 10, 2018, 07:47 PM

    Yes. Did the Quranic texts appear by chance?
    You think?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4714 - October 10, 2018, 08:38 PM

    Do you think it was political? A conscious decision?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4715 - October 10, 2018, 09:30 PM

    What you think? Do you think that texts like these appear by chance?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4716 - October 10, 2018, 09:33 PM

    Not by chance, no. But political forces being behind their composition for a specific purpose is another thing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4717 - October 10, 2018, 11:13 PM

    What other reasons are possible ... apart what the Muslim narratives say, namely that God spoke to a "prophet" which is a matter of faith, not science? There is not so much...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4718 - October 11, 2018, 01:00 AM

    What other reasons are possible ... apart what the Muslim narratives say, namely that God spoke to a "prophet" which is a matter of faith, not science? There is not so much...


    I don't know why but for some reason I like that from Altara.

    Still Altara doesn't want to help me...  that is all right

    Well Muslim preachers &  rulers of past and even present  WHO WERE ACTUALLY CONVERTS     must have learned that from somewhere else and then they added some of their own spices   to what was there already to make it really a good recipe for......

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4719 - October 11, 2018, 05:42 AM

    Quote
    Yes. Did the Quranic texts appear by chance?


    To get an answer to this question , let us examine how other holy texts came into existence.

    How and why did the book of Mormons get "revealed"?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4720 - October 11, 2018, 08:15 AM

    Yes. Did the Quranic texts appear by chance?
    You think?


    No they didn't appear by chance ; someone had an interest in writing them in ARABIC.

    The Quran is telling us that 42/7  And thus We have revealed to you an Arabic Qur'an that you may warn the Mother of Cities [Makkah] and those around it and warn of the Day of Assembly, about which there is no doubt. A party will be in Paradise and a party in the Blaze.

    Sources are telling us about arabs converting to Abrahism/Jewish kind of monotheism prior to islam and their reverence to the patriarchal place of their race.


    The thing is that for me the Quran didn't play any role in the conquests and the Umayyads, for me, didn't care about it. Only a small arabic speaking community (for me) did pay attention to the Quran, and their understanding had nothing to do with today's islam.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4721 - October 11, 2018, 09:18 AM

    MArc,

    Quote
    Only a small arabic speaking community (for me) did pay attention to the Quran, and their understanding had nothing to do with today's islam.


    I agree completely. That's why I say that the Quran doesnt tell us much about the audience but much more about the author(s).  This supposition that the Quran was fully understood when it left the scribal workshop is not realistic. History is full of not understood books and plenty of indications are there that the Quran fits perfectly in this category.

    Thinking that a declamation of eg Surah 2 would convert the young men and make them go to war is ridiculous. It will make them fall asleep rather. Short slogans would have motivated them, not long, dense theological tractates.

    But the Quran was written since it is there...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4722 - October 11, 2018, 09:25 AM

    Quote
    No they didn't appear by chance ; someone had an interest in writing them in ARABIC.

     

    Ok.

    Quote
    Only a small arabic speaking community (for me) did pay attention to the Quran


    Yes, important point.

    Quote
    The thing is that for me the Quran didn't play any role in the conquests


    Yes. But they already knew some texts (637 Mount of Temple, house of prayer) but it is not the Quran the reason of the conquest adversely to what will think Muslim narrative as soon as the end of 8th c. (Al Azdi).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4723 - October 11, 2018, 09:31 AM

    Can the proto-muslim invasions/ideology have been incited by some group to weaken the opponent? (just read about Manichaism that missionary activities in Roman empire were promoted by the Persians)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4724 - October 11, 2018, 09:53 AM

    Quote from: Marc
    Only a small arabic speaking community (for me) did pay attention to the Quran, and their understanding had nothing to do with today's islam.


    Marc, I agree completely. That's why I say that the Quran doesn't tell us much about the audience but much more about the author(s).


    Nope. There is no relation between Marc say and what you say. That is not "why" The small arabic speaking community who had the texts were able to understand many things even if they (still) did not get all. The Quran tells much about the audience, it's curious that you cannot perceive that.

    Quote
     This supposition that the Quran was fully understood when it left the scribal workshop is not realistic.

     

    Nobody  say that, see above.

    Quote
    History is full of not understood books and plenty of indications are there that the Quran fits perfectly in this category.


    You're wrong. What books?

    Quote
    Thinking that a declamation of eg Surah 2 would convert the young men and make them go to war is ridiculous.

     

    You're projecting your own personal stuff on people who have nothing to see with you. Classical mistake. It is not because you do not get sura 2 that all the world was like you.

    Quote
    It will make them fall asleep rather.


    You're projecting your own personal stuff.


    Quote
    Short slogans would have motivated them, not long, dense theological tractates.


    Idem.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4725 - October 11, 2018, 11:29 AM

    Quote
    Marc, I agree completely. That's why I say that the Quran doesn't tell us much about the audience but much more about the author(s).



    Quote
    Nope. There is no relation between Marc say and what you say. That is not "why" The small arabic speaking community who had the texts were able to understand many things even if they (still) did not get all. The Quran tells much about the audience, it's curious that you cannot perceive that.


    I agree with Altara. The Quran tell us about the audience because it was targeted at them. The only potential issue is the pontial alterations to the text to islamize it that might make it difficult or misleading to comprehend who exactly the audience was.

    To be more clear, that original audience perfectly understood those texts. Later, when the winning arab party gained the upper hand and seized those texts and sent them to the persian tafsir writers,  sense of the texts was distorted  and/or partially lost and altered on purpose globally.   
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4726 - October 11, 2018, 11:30 AM

    Can the proto-muslim invasions/ideology have been incited by some group to weaken the opponent? (just read about Manichaism that missionary activities in Roman empire were promoted by the Persians)

    The conquest (630) is not fueled by the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4727 - October 11, 2018, 11:36 AM

    Quote
    Only a small arabic speaking community (for me) did pay attention to the Quran, and their understanding had nothing to do with today's islam.


    What would this small arabic speaking community that understood Surah 2 have looked like? The rogue monastery community?

    If you mean this very small circle of literati in the scribal workshop as "the audience", then indeed, you guys are right. The audience understood most.

    I understand as "the audience", the wider community of foot-soldiers and women, who realised the conquest and spread Islam through their offspring.

    I differentiate between the ideology fueling the conquest (Altara, you yourself say Quran was not at the basis, I agree completely), and this Quran somewhere on a shelf of the scribal workshop, read/ copied by a small group who knew the content.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4728 - October 11, 2018, 12:10 PM


    I agree with Altara. The Quran tell us about the audience because it was targeted at them.


    Yes.

    Quote
    The only potential issue is the pontial alterations to the text to islamize it that might make it difficult or misleading to comprehend who exactly the audience was.


    We never know what was added, removed. Dye has some good ideas about the end of sura(s). (cf. Réflexions méthodologiques...)
    About "islamized". For me,  there is  no  a later "islamization" of the Quran which would have been a (kind) of "Christian" text before as some scholars think.


    Quote
    Later, when the winning arab party gained the upper hand and seized those texts


    It was not a "seizing" as some Arabs did have already some texts (637 Temple Mount) or knew some part of it. But of course they did not knew at that time what will be elaborated later about them.

    Quote
    and sent them to the Persian tafsir writers,  sense of the texts was distorted  and/or partially lost and altered on purpose globally.  


     The Persian tafsir writers are late : 750 (officially...) for the Muqatil one.
     Sense of the texts was distorted : because understand the entire text is not just understand some passages. In its entirety it is an non really understandable text : therefore the sunna is needed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4729 - October 11, 2018, 12:39 PM

    What would this small arabic speaking community that understood Surah 2 have looked like? The rogue monastery community?

    If you mean this very small circle of literati in the scribal workshop as "the audience", then indeed, you guys are right. The audience understood most.

    I understand as "the audience", the wider community of foot-soldiers and women, who realised the conquest and spread Islam through their offspring.

    I differentiate between the ideology fueling the conquest (Altara, you yourself say Quran was not at the basis, I agree completely), and this Quran somewhere on a shelf of the scribal workshop, read/ copied by a small group who knew the content.

    If it is possible mundi want to solve all the problems in Origins of Islam and Quran And Altara will say ..

    This  forum is not the right place to solve that problem specially with those critical questions  Cheesy  .. the forum is good only for asking questions or reflecting/deflecting questions  .. Cheesy

    on those highlighted words of yours   mundi let me go in different direction.  instead of origin of Islam we go in to Spreading of Islam.,  here is the question to you .. let us take examples of the countries that are over 30 million population  today where  more than 90% of folks living there practice Islam or different type of Islam with one motto LA ILAHA ILLALLAH Muhammadur Rasulullah


    Quote
    Country .................Total population...........Muslim Population ............ % of present Muslim population

    Yemen.........................28,036,829 ..........................28,036,829................,.................100

    Afghanistan.................34,124,811..........................34,022,437...................................99.7

    Iran.................................81,786,900...........................81,500,000 .................................99.4

    Algeria.............................40,969,443.........................40,559,748....................................99

     Iraq..................................39,339,753...........................38,800,190...................................99

    Morocco...........................34,785,200............................33,646,788................................99

    Turkey..................................80,810,525...........................79,000,000 ...........................98.6  

    Saudi Arabia......................33,413,660...........................31,878,000...........................97.1

    Uzbekistan.........................32,653,900...........................26,550,000...........................96.5

    Pakistan...........................201,993,000...........................198,000,000[.........................96.4

    Bangladesh.....................165,188,000...........................148,607,000...........................90.4

    Egypt....................................97,553,600...........................87,300,000................................90

    Indonesia...........................265,015,300...........................227,000,000..........................87.2


    Question now is.,

     when in the history of these countries they became Islamic and How?? and If you focus on middle east countries and see the pattern how year wise  population shifted from zero Muslims to 99% of Muslim folks .

    If you do that  then you will have some answers to many of your questions on origin of Islam .. We need some one like President Donald Trump to inquire in to early Islam... I mean start with ZERO EXPERIENCE ..  It is the first time in the history some one as American President  threatened Sand Land snakes..  And only completely inexperienced person in international politics  can do that ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4730 - October 11, 2018, 12:45 PM


    .........We never know what was added, removed. ......


    That is an extremely important point on the origins of Quran.. hence origins of Islam ...

    What is added and what is removed from Quran and When??

    That is the reason I am trying to get some one atleast  to look carefully in to those existing early manuscripts of Quran around the globe.. 

    but it appears no one cares..... That is one reason I say the present SCHOLARS OF ISLAM ARE DUMBOS.. finmad finmad

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4731 - October 11, 2018, 12:49 PM

    What would this small arabic speaking community that understood Surah 2 have looked like? The rogue monastery community?



    Passages of sura 2, not necessarily all. Is there only sura 2 in the Quran?

    Quote
    If you mean this very small circle of literati in the scribal workshop as "the audience", then indeed, you guys are right. The audience understood most.


    I mean nothing at the moment. I just say what you postulated is wrong.  People (whatever they are) understood passages : the Biblical God who speak in Arabic, to it seems,  an Arab.  God says many things very clear. There's no need to understand sura 2 to understand that.

    Quote
    I understand as "the audience", the wider community of foot-soldiers and women, who realised the conquest and spread Islam through their offspring.


    Jack Tannous write in his dissertation that in the first mosques build in Syria "the wider community of foot-soldiers and women", were reciting poems in it.



    Quote
    I differentiate between the ideology fuelling the conquest (Altara, you yourself say Quran was not at the basis, I agree completely), and this Quran somewhere on a shelf of the scribal workshop, read/ copied by a small group who knew the content.

    No ideology fuelled the conquest. The Quranic texts (not necessarily assembled)  were circulating before in the hands of some people.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4732 - October 11, 2018, 12:56 PM

     
    What would this small arabic speaking community that understood Surah 2 have looked like? The rogue monastery community?

    what? I am not reading mundi carefully .. Why mundi?? why would you say  rogue monastery community??  What is there in Surah-2 that makes you to think like that??  well let me read it for you.. in another folder

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4733 - October 11, 2018, 12:57 PM

    Altara,

    Surah 2 to 5 are all of the same type, very dense with incomplete story lines that according to scholars needed a highly erudite public versed in Christian and Jewish theology to fully understand. They are a big part of the Quran. You are backtracking from "the audience understood the Quran"to "the audience understood part of the Quran".

    For sure any Arabic speaker would understand part of the Quran. Just like any French speaker understands part of Victor Hugo's French. That's not the point.

    Scholars (eg Reynolds) thus assumed that the society in general where this Quran originated (and assumed recited) had these intellectual qualities.

    Every lecturer will tell you: never overestimate the audience. That is exactly what these scholars have been doing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4734 - October 11, 2018, 01:02 PM

    Yeez,

    I say "rogue monastic community"because it would make sense to me that suh a community would be able to write a document like the Quran. An orthodox monastic community would not do it because it is against their most holy beliefs. History shows there have been quite a lot of Monastic communities, getting their own new ideas, and propagating them. It seemed to be fertile ground for theological experimental thought which is not surprising seen the setting.

    I give this as an example. Does someone have another suggestion as to where such a document like the Quran might have seen its genesis or collection? Would love to discuss that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4735 - October 11, 2018, 01:23 PM

    well let me split mundi post in to point 1..2...3....
    Yeez,

    1). I say "rogue monastic community"because it would make sense to me that suh a community would be able to write a document like the Quran.

    Quote
    2). An orthodox monastic community would not do it because it is against their most holy beliefs. History shows there have been quite a lot of Monastic communities, getting their own new ideas, and propagating them. It seemed to be fertile ground for theological experimental thought which is not surprising seen the setting.

    3).  I give this as an example. Does someone have another suggestion as to where such a document like the Quran might have seen its genesis or collection? Would love to discuss that.


    I see let me get that straight on point-1  dear mundi

    So you take that surah-2 as an example,  but you consider WHOLE QURAN AS ROGUE DOCUMENT ORIGINATED FROM SOME ROGUE MONSTERS of some rogue monastic community ?

    did I get that right??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4736 - October 11, 2018, 01:28 PM

    Yeez,

    Why do you make monsters out of this "rogue community". I didnt say this. Maybe I should call them "dissident monastic community"if that pleases you. I like to use strong words to make my point, but you think this is too strong?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4737 - October 11, 2018, 01:36 PM

    Altara,

    Surah 2 to 5 are all of the same type, very dense with incomplete story lines that according to scholars needed a highly erudite public versed in Christian and Jewish theology to fully understand.


    Again, there's no need to fully understand anything. Proof is that since 1400 years they still get anything then they say it's normal because it is God who speak.
    People (whatever they are) understood passages : the Biblical God who speak in Arabic, to it seems,  an Arab.  God says many things very clear. There's no need to understand sura 2 or all the Quran to understand that
    Quote
    They are a big part of the Quran. You are backtracking from "the audience understood the Quran"to "the audience understood part of the Quran".


    Nope, I'm backtracking nothing. How can I backtrack as I always said that they do not get it today?  "The small arabic speaking community who had the texts were able to understand many things even if they (still) did not get all."  I wrote as well : " understand the entire text is not just understand some passages. In its entirety it is an non really understandable text : therefore the sunna is needed.
    Explain to me..

    Quote
    For sure any Arabic speaker would understand part of the Quran. Just like any French speaker understands part of Victor Hugo's French. That's not the point.


    It is enough to understand key things in the Quranic texts.
    God speak in Arabic to Arabs and to an Arab guy (it seems...) etc.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4738 - October 11, 2018, 01:39 PM

    Yeez,

    Why do you make monsters out of this "rogue community". I didnt say this

     Cheesy Cheesy true you did not use that word "monsters" dear mundi.,    Do you think the word " "monsters" is worse than the word  "Rogue"?

    if it is  I must stop using that word to "toddlers  " which I often use ............
    Quote
    Maybe I should call them "dissident monastic community"if that pleases you. I like to use strong words to make my point, but you think this is too strong?

    yes it does please me and that is indeed a better way....

    Now Questions on your  "dissident monastic community" are

    who were they??  
    were they Jewish folks?
     were they Christians ??
     or were they some where in the middle??  
    Clearly their mother tongue has to be Arabic.. after all they are writing  it in that language .,
    So what could be there location??  
    And did all of the quran came from same location and from same monastic community that started ??  "LA ILAHA ILLALLAH" Muhammadur Rasulullah
     Or did the ball ended up in some other hands to complete the game?

    So many questions dear mundi.,  But first thing.. or suggestion  I say to you is  "YOU MUST READ QURAN... All 6300 verses or so..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4739 - October 11, 2018, 01:49 PM

    ..........I wrote as well : " understand the entire text is not just understand some passages. In its entirety it is an non really understandable text : therefore the sunna is needed...

    Explain to me.....


    Hello Altara   I didn't get that statement .. I wonder whether you wrote that or copy/pasted from some other's post

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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