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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4680 - October 09, 2018, 03:36 PM

    Mecca:

    Probably the Quranic text was not written with a focal point in mind. If it was, the Quran would have been more explicit and clear.

    I suppose Arabs had a custom of praying in a certain direction (pre- Islam), and the proto-muslims just continued that and started off with Petra (and maybe also other directions).

    Altara, what do you mean with this:
    Quote
    Why using in the 9th c.  the description of Petra to describe Mecca (in the Hijaz) of the time of the Prophet?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4681 - October 09, 2018, 05:14 PM

    mundi always seem to throw some IMPROBABLE STATEMENTS in to his post knowing well that  they have NO CHANCE of  standing in a critical inquiry
    Mecca:

    Probably the Quranic text was not written with a focal point in mind. If it was, the Quran would have been more explicit and clear.

    why probably dear mundi?? Anyone with bit of brain who reads Quran thoroughly (ALL OF IT .. not few verses  here and there)    will quickly come to the conclusion that Quranic text is NOTHING  TO DO  with Mecca, Madina  Zamzam., and it is VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH "Muhammad"

    Quote
    I suppose Arabs had a custom of praying in a certain direction (pre- Islam), and the proto-muslims just continued that and started off with Petra (and maybe also other directions).

    You seem to be putting too much importance to Dan Gibson's work .. His work is only good to explore Petra history  and very little to do with Islam & Quran

    Quote
    Altara, what do you mean with this:
    Quote
    Why using in the 9th c.  the description of Petra to describe Mecca (in the Hijaz) of the time of the Prophet?


    well Altara question is very simple ... And Altara seems to be writing his posts in Quran parables... Assuming ((like all 4 or more  billion people on this earth  believe that there was a Prophet of Islam)) that there was Muhammad.,  we must note that  during t 6th century Petra was a great city with many scribes.,  If prophet of  Islam conquered that city  during his time  (("Why there is No Mosque in that city ??)) and why so called proto -Muslim community  need to go to Jerusalem and build dome of the rock there in the year  637..??

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_TMHYuiHE

    Jerusalem  during early Islamic times
    Jewish History 630 - 639
    Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem wiki
    Siege of Jerusalem (636–637) _ wiki

    without doubt Altara is breaking the ground on proto Islam.. unfortunately he is French .. NOT AMERICAN OR NOT BRITISH Academician .. I think hates England  and "Early Islam Academics" in England  Cheesy Cheesy   so he will not become famous for his work

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4682 - October 09, 2018, 05:54 PM

    Yeez,

    Your comment:
    Quote
    You seem to be putting too much importance to Dan Gibson's work .. His work is only good to explore Petra history  and very little to do with Islam & Quran


    I think Gibson's work is good to explore early mosques, I am not convinced that all early mosques point to Petra. Deus says there are multiple directions. But I think I am the only one who has read both articles here...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4683 - October 09, 2018, 05:59 PM

    Yeez,
     
    I think Gibson's work is good to explore early mosques,

    Oh ! I agree with that
    Quote
    I am not convinced that all early mosques point to Petra. Deus says there are multiple directions. But I think I am the only one who has read both articles here...

    Oh ! I see . you are actually hitting him below the belt  Cheesy   then I   completely missed silent points of your posts on this Mosques/Petra/Mecca subject

    well let me watch these tubes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9zujnEd--g

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BanxqagThQI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUMYT6tozEg

    city is worth visiting

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4684 - October 09, 2018, 06:24 PM

    Yeez,

    Your comment:
    I think Gibson's work is good to explore early mosques, I am not convinced that all early mosques point to Petra. Deus says there are multiple directions. But I think I am the only one who has read both articles here...


    AJ Deus summary, his item 9) is interesting :

    Even though the here presented results are preliminary and could still contain errors (in particular
    in respect to demolitions and reconstructions), the discoveries in this paper have fundamental
    consequences for the approach to the history of the beginnings of Islam, the Koran, and beyond. Some
    of the discoveries are as following:
    1) The Koran speaks of two qibla changes.
    2) The Koran neither commands a change from Jerusalem, nor to Mecca, but instead to Al-Haram
    in present day Israel (as confirmed with orientations from various mosques).
    3) Babylonian Pharisee qiblas show a consistent prayer orientation to the location of the Exilarch
    (not to the Temple in Jerusalem).
    4) The pattern of directing places of worship toward the Exilarch continues through all three
    mosques of Medina and beyond.
    5) For the first time, the Ethiopian kernel of the early Muslim story can be confirmed with
    archaeology. There may indeed have been two ‘Muslim’ stations in that country:
    With surprising accuracy and with conversion points from multiple directions,
     
    – the Quba Mosque in Medina is precisely oriented toward Axum
    – the Mosque of the Prophet is precisely oriented toward the Imam Mesgid in Negash.
    6) Levite-Sadducee qiblas show a consistent prayer orientation to the location of the Nasi (also not
    to the Temple Mount).
    7) There are many qibla changes that can be attributed to ‘Muslim’ structures. The pattern follows
    the dynastic paraclete leadership from which follows that each town can reveal its individual story
    about dynastic expansions and contractions through the archaeology of the mosques. Similar to
    changes in dynastic territories, the stories told through mosques in multiple towns are interlinked
    and overlap.
    Cool Since none of the early structures point to Mecca, the Muslims have arrived there much later than is assumed in the traditional accounts. Even after the first appearance in the historical record, the practice of orienting places of worship toward the dynastic leadership would persist for centuries.
    9) Jacob of Edessa’s comment that the Jews were praying toward Jerusalem implies that the Exilarch or the Nasi was occupying the Temple Mount at that time.
    10) The Al-Askari Shrine and mosque in Samarra was built by Seljuks over one and a half century after the disappearance of the Mahdi, and it would be expanded by Ismaili’s thereafter.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4685 - October 09, 2018, 06:29 PM

    mundi always seem to throw some IMPROBABLE STATEMENTS in to his post knowing well that  they have NO CHANCE of  standing in a critical inquiry why probably dear mundi?? Anyone with bit of brain who reads Quran thoroughly (ALL OF IT .. not few verses  here and there)    will quickly come to the conclusion that Quranic text is NOTHING  TO DO  with Mecca, Madina  Zamzam., and it is VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH "Muhammad"


    Yes.


    Quote
    You seem to be putting too much importance to Dan Gibson's work .. His work is only good to explore Petra history  and very little to do with Islam & Quran


    Yes.

    Quote
    well Altara question is very simple ... And Altara seems to be writing his posts in Quran parables...

     

    Haha!!!

    Quote
    Assuming  that there was Muhammad.,  we must note that  during t 6th century Petra was a great city with many scribes.,  If prophet of  Islam conquered that city  during his time  Why there is No Mosque in that city ??) and why so called proto -Muslim community  need to go to Jerusalem and build dome of the rock there in the year  637..??


    Yes.

    Quote
    without doubt Altara is breaking the ground on proto Islam.. unfortunately he is French .. NOT AMERICAN OR NOT BRITISH Academician ..I think hates England  and "Early Islam Academics" in England  Cheesy Cheesy   so he will not become famous for his work


    Exceptional!!!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4686 - October 09, 2018, 06:34 PM

    Marc ,

    Ok, you read the article  Cheesy

    Deus article is very complicated, too complicated for me. Maybe you can judge this exilarch thing and the complicated Jewish history stuff?

    I think his claim that the Qibla has to be correct at a decimal level is unrealistic.

    I heard that the mosque in Negash is a Turkish construct and totally fake... The sahaba mosque in Eritrea is, and yes, it points to Petra: http://www.shabait.com/about-eritrea/erina/11990-al-sahaba-the-first-mosque-in-africa

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4687 - October 09, 2018, 06:44 PM

    Mundi,

    Deus article is way too complicated. My mind just drove off.

    A funny thing : he doesn't think the Sana'a mosk is directed towards Petra but towards the Patriarch cave in Hebron.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4688 - October 09, 2018, 06:56 PM

    Deus:

    Personally I think Gibson's work shows much more seriousness than Deus'. Deus' super precise calculation of the Qibla direction is ridiculous. He then just draws a line and sees what crossed its path.

    Let's consider David Kings'contribution too. He said no way Arabs knew how to direct the Qibla as precise as Gison says . Logically, if King would comment Deus'work, he would completely destroy it and cover it with salt.

    But like I said before, I don't need to agree with everything in an article to find some elements valuable. Summary of what I retain:

    1/ Certain mosques do point to Petra
    2/ Probably not all early mosques point to Petra
    3/ Accuracy might not have been behind the decimal point, but apparently better than what King says.
    4/ It seems that the geographical spread (from Eritrea to India and maybe China) of very early mosques is impressive. Are these mosques really that old? If yes, what are the consequences for Islamic studies?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4689 - October 09, 2018, 07:09 PM

    Quote


    A funny thing : he doesn't think the Sana'a mosk is directed towards Petra but towards the Patriarch cave in Hebron.


     ...... Deus' super precise calculation of the Qibla direction is ridiculous. He then just draws a line and sees what crossed its path..............

     ........................
    1/ Certain mosques do point to Petra
    2/ Probably not all early mosques point to Petra
    3/ Accuracy might not have been behind the decimal point, ................

    4/ It seems that the geographical spread (from Eritrea to India and maybe China) of very early mosques is impressive. Are these mosques really that old? If yes, what are the consequences for Islamic studies?


    What do these Mosques builders had during their construction?? GPS/ Satellite coordinates  .. The work is simply nonsense w.r.t Islam/proto-Islam   .. It is just they are beautiful architecture And they all have domes with Arabic calligraphy


    As far as direction is concerned .. these old mosque/temple/church  builder  all used to  look for bright sunlight .. so they may have similar angles towards sun

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4690 - October 09, 2018, 07:19 PM

    Altara uses a word "Exceptional"  to what i said.,  I wonder whether it is Quranic Sarcasm ..lol 
    .....without doubt Altara is breaking the ground on proto Islam.. unfortunately he is French .. NOT AMERICAN OR NOT BRITISH Academician .. I think he  hates England  and "Early Islam Academics" in England  Cheesy Cheesy   so he will not become famous for his work


    Exceptional!!!


    No..No that is not exceptional  IT IS A FACT   Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4691 - October 09, 2018, 07:51 PM

    Hahaha!!!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4692 - October 09, 2018, 09:17 PM

    Does Altara hate English, haha?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4693 - October 10, 2018, 10:00 AM

    Does Altara hate English, haha?

    well It is well known fact  ,, British & French both were colonial powers that divided planet earth among themselves  and they fought many wars starting from Breton War in 1076 
     
      the worst thing that happened to France was THESE RASCALS FROM ENGLAND STOLE FRENCH LANGUAGE  and sold to the rest of the world as their own,, Cheesy Cheesy    And guys like Altara do not like that............

    Anyways So some of you guys who are in the field of "origin of faiths"  must write and prove that Origins of Islam is NOT from the sand land that is ruled by snakes   but it started back in the home .. And the ball was run around the globe by Arab Folks., Caliphs + Preachers with stories from OT & NT,,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4694 - October 10, 2018, 10:51 AM

    Indeed. Maybe Altara thinks the Quran and Mecxa came from France and that is why he is not disclosing any thing, haha (friendly joke, dear Altara)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4695 - October 10, 2018, 11:27 AM

    Indeed. Maybe Altara thinks the Quran and Mecxa came from France and that is why he is not disclosing any thing, haha (friendly joke, dear Altara)

    well I am not sure what Altara thinks  but you certainly think Bible is word of god., Quran is word of god  and jesus is "god dear   Mahgraye., On top of all that you certainly have that "APPEASING TO AUTHORITY  personality in you.. Cheesy Cheesy

    with best wishes to both of you
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4696 - October 10, 2018, 12:28 PM

    well It is well known fact  ,, British & French both were colonial powers that divided planet earth among themselves  and they fought many wars starting from Breton War in 1076  

     
    1066 French Duc Guillaume invaded England : to the center Normans, left Breton, right French (Ile de France, Paris region) and Picard (Picardy) and Flemish from North France (Lille, etc)
    They bring feudal civilisation and French (of the 11,12,13,14th cc.) 60% of the vocabulary you use!!!
     
    Quote
     the worst thing that happened to France was THESE RASCALS FROM ENGLAND STOLE FRENCH LANGUAGE

    were French speaking people ... Wink (see above)

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4697 - October 10, 2018, 12:40 PM


    1066 French Duc Guillaume invaded England : to the center Normans, left Breton, right French (Ile de France, Paris region) and Picard (Picardy) and Flemish from North France (Lille, etc)
    They bring feudal civilization and French (of the 11,12,13,14th cc.) 60% of the vocabulary you use!!!
     were French speaking people ... Wink (see above)

    oh I see., i didn't know that  So basically you are saying people of England and its rulers were nice folks  and French ruined them by teaching their tricks of feudal rules.

    French feudal rascals... Cheesy  but you are evading my question Altara 

    ................... Question is  what were the underlying events that made the authors of Quran to tell old bible  tales  


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4698 - October 10, 2018, 01:12 PM

    Quote
    Question is  what were the underlying events that made the authors of Quran to tell old bible  tales 


    Important events.   Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4699 - October 10, 2018, 01:27 PM

    Important events.   Wink

     well....  you are not helping dear Altara ...,  let me ask you different simple question....I wonder whether you know any publication preferably in English that highlights Verses of Quran which also present in Hadith?  .

    may be  Mahgraye has the answer to that question...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4700 - October 10, 2018, 01:30 PM

    Not sure about the publications...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4701 - October 10, 2018, 01:31 PM

    Not sure about the publications...


    any web sites/blogs??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4702 - October 10, 2018, 01:40 PM

    Publications and/or sites that discuss Hadith's citing Quran verses? Did I get that right+
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4703 - October 10, 2018, 01:42 PM

    Quote
    well I am not sure what Altara thinks but you certainly think Bible is the word of god., Quran is the word of god  and jesus is "god dear   Mahgraye., On top of all that you certainly have that "APPEASING TO AUTHORITY  personality in you..


    This came out of left field. Have not idea where it comes from.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4704 - October 10, 2018, 01:51 PM

    This came out of left field. Have not idea where it comes from.

     Cheesy Cheesy  well that was a joke and a hunch because I know you read lots of  books and papers in the field of " islam" and you seem to give high importance to the well known authors on the subject without questioning their hypothesis dear  Mahgraye., If I am wrong you must say ,,

    Quote
    YOU ARE WRONG YEEZEVEE,,, "I do not believe any of these faith and faith books are from  ah ha_ hu huoo god.."


    Publications and/or sites that discuss Hadith's citing Quran verses? Did I get that right+

    No not discussion on Hadith's citing Quran verses.,

    here let us take an example of these guys

    Quote
    Sunni hadith collections
    Sahih Bukhari.
    Sahih Muslim.
    Sunan al-Nasa'i.
    Sunan Abu Dawud.
    Sunan al-Tirmidhi.
    Sunan Ibn Majah.


    What verses of Quran do we see in the books of those authors??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4705 - October 10, 2018, 01:55 PM

    The Book of Hadith: Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad from the Mishkat Al Masabih


    i wonder whether you read that book dear Mahgraye  


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4706 - October 10, 2018, 02:33 PM

    Oh! The hadith collection cites ordinary verses. Nothing significant. Christopher Melchert has an article on Bukhari's Kitab al-tafsir. Maybe I can get a hold of it.

    Haha. No problem, dear Yeezevee. I do question but I also know my place and show respect of the authors as they are, indeed, authorities. One must find a balance. Not unsubstantiated skepticism due to ignorance and dogma nor blind following either.

    Yes, I am familiar with the hadith book you posted. It is only a compilation of specific traditions and not a proper collection like Bukhari.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4707 - October 10, 2018, 02:45 PM

    Oh! The hadith collection cites ordinary verses. Nothing significant. Christopher Melchert has an article on Bukhari's Kitab al-tafsir. Maybe I can get a hold of it.

    Quote
    As for the rest, I do question but I also know my place and show respect of the authors as they are, indeed, authorities. One must find a balance. Not unsubstantiated skepticism due to ignorance and dogma nor blind following either.


    Yes, I am familiar with the hadith book you posted. It is only a compilation of specific traditions and not a proper collection like Bukhari.

    well I will leave that out ... and give you this link of sayings  but  we all know different individual have different way of dealing with that Appeasing to Authority problem   and you will find those problems in every field ..

    Anyways thank you on that hadith/Quran interface .. I guess I should look in to it..  

     But did  you come across ANY FACULTY MEMBER FROM WEST .... who wrote publications in reputed journals  that discusses in support of Islam origins through Hadith and sayings/sunnah of Prophet of Islam?  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4708 - October 10, 2018, 02:59 PM

    Quote
    in support of Islam


    Did not get this? What do you mean?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4709 - October 10, 2018, 03:11 PM

    Did not get this? What do you mean?

     Oops I missed a word "  origins    so read that questions as

    But did  you come across ANY FACULTY MEMBER FROM WEST .... who wrote publications in reputed journals  that discusses in support of Islam origins through Hadith and sayings/sunnah of Prophet of Islam?  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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