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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4230 - September 24, 2018, 08:26 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 24, 2018, 08:19 PM
    No one has ever denied the existence of a kaaba. It doesn't mean that it was the kaaba of the muslim narrative.


    Of course. It could be the direction of Jerusalem and the masjid on the Temple Mount.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4231 - September 24, 2018, 08:45 PM
    Jacob of Edessa's Kaba is further North, not Jerusalem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4232 - September 24, 2018, 08:47 PM
    Quote
    I brought up that your affirmations of these guys being Companions/Mecca/Zem-Zem/Kaba leaves no traces (at all) of what you say they are. I conclude logically that they are not (at all) related to Companions/Mecca/Zem-Zem/Kaba.
    I say, I'm the king of England : who will believe me as I have nothing to validate it? Nobody...



    Never said any of that. Did not bring up Mecca et al. Only that some personalities in the traditional who are know as COmpanions, assuming the inscription is genuine, did exist. The time and place also correspond to information provided by the traditional sources. Hardly controversial.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4233 - September 24, 2018, 09:06 PM
    You said that these people are Companions/Mecca/Kaba. Who say that? These people say that from themselves? Where?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4234 - September 24, 2018, 09:06 PM
    Does Jacob of Edessa’s description of the Kaaba line up with Ptolemy’s Moka? That’d be pretty significant, wouldn’t it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4235 - September 24, 2018, 09:13 PM
    Quote
    Does Jacob of Edessa’s description of the Kaaba line up with Ptolemy’s Moka? That’d be pretty significant, wouldn’t it?


    Crone thinks so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4236 - September 24, 2018, 09:14 PM
    Quote
    You said that these people are Companions/Mecca/Kaba. Who say that? These people say that from themselves? Where?


    Don't understand. I did not mention or connect the figures to Mecca or Kaba.

    My reading is hardly controversial.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4237 - September 24, 2018, 09:33 PM
    Quote
    Jacob of Edessa's Kaba is further North, not Jerusalem.


    Why?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4238 - September 24, 2018, 09:35 PM
    Do/can we know when/how the switch to current Mecca occurred? Apologies for the noob questions lol
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4239 - September 24, 2018, 09:39 PM
    Lurker,

    Dan Gibson's film is an interesting discussion start. I think he has the msot complete listing of early mosques with possible Qibla directions.

    Jacob of Edessa:

    Apparently the early  Muslims and the Jews have this praying FOCUS in common (1 geographical location). I think for Christians, burials and churches where directed to the East, wherever one is. Not to Jerusalem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4240 - September 24, 2018, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 09:13 PM
    Crone thinks so.


    Gibson thinks it is Petra.


    Quote
    Jacob of Edessa's Kaba is further North, not Jerusalem.


    That is your opinion. Jacob of Edessa's writings don't give any detail about this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4241 - September 24, 2018, 09:49 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 24, 2018, 09:39 PM
    . I think for Christians, burials and churches where directed to the East, wherever one is. Not to Jerusalem.


    Christians used to face the sunrise, a link with Jésus.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4242 - September 24, 2018, 09:51 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 09:14 PM
    Don't understand. I did not mention or connect the figures to Mecca or Kaba. I was just reminded of the Jerusalem 32 Inscription from 32 AH/652 CE that mentions three of Muḥammad’s companions—ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. ʿAwf, Abū ʿUbaydah b. al-Jarrāḥ, and Muʿāwiyah.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4243 - September 24, 2018, 09:53 PM
    Quote
    Gibson thinks it is Petra.


    Maybe. Still North.

    Quote
    That is your opinion. Jacob of Edessa's writings don't give any detail about this.


    Could be Jerusalem, the Temple Mount. But I did not know Jacob could be used to support it.

    Quote
    Don't understand. I did not mention or connect the figures to Mecca or Kaba. I was just reminded of the Jerusalem 32 Inscription from 32 AH/652 CE that mentions three of Muḥammad’s companions—ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. ʿAwf, Abū ʿUbaydah b. al-Jarrāḥ, and Muʿāwiyah.



    Yes. These are said to have been Muhammad's companions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4244 - September 24, 2018, 09:55 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 24, 2018, 09:47 PM


    That is your opinion. Jacob of Edessa's writings don't give any detail about this.


    Yes, Jacob's text is cryptic. It is perfectly possible that he does not know the exact place apart "East" and a name 'Kaba'.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4245 - September 24, 2018, 09:55 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 09:53 PM
    Maybe. Still North.

    Could be Jerusalem, the Temple Mount. But I did not know Jacob could be used to support it.


    Yes. These are said to have been Muhammad's companions.


    By themselves?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4246 - September 24, 2018, 09:56 PM
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 24, 2018, 09:35 PM
    Do/can we know when/how the switch to current Mecca occurred? Apologies for the noob questions lol


    Muslim tradition is telling us that Abbassids caliphs contrary to their Umayyads counterparts were doing frequent pilgrimages to Mecca and Medina and spent huge amount of money to maintain and improve those 2 towns. Scholars like Azraqi and Tabari tell us about numerous stories on those building works by the Abbassids. Among those, Harun al-Rashid (764-809) and his wife Zubayda are specially brought into the limelight (The Hajj : The Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca and the Holy Places , F.E. Peters).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4247 - September 24, 2018, 09:58 PM
    Quote
    By themselves?


    The traditional sources describe them as companions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4248 - September 24, 2018, 10:40 PM
    Does these people claims themselves by any documents of their time; that they are what  the traditional sources say about them?

    Nope. Then, they are not what  the traditional sources say about them : Companions/Mecca/Zem_Zem,  since the traditional sources say that the Companions lived in Mecca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4249 - September 24, 2018, 10:51 PM
    They do not need to. You are missing the point. Assuming the inscription is genuine, then it strengthens the notion that these personalities mentioned in the sources existed. The content of the inscription does support this: mentions the Messenger and the three persons who witnessed. The content of the inscription, the persons, match with what the sources tell us as well, the dates, and the location, that is. Anyways.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4250 - September 25, 2018, 07:11 AM
    Maggraye,

    I do get your point. If all these inscriptions are genuine, it proves that a big part of the islamic tradition is true. Upto now, revisionists pointed out that there was ZERO proof that even these first caliphs ever existed. Now we are getting proof that even the minor figures mentioned in the tradition actually existed and personally inscribed their names  in the middle of the desert somewhere in KSA.

    The Jerusalem inscription you mention seems quite doubtful. Legibility and dating are highly questionable I have read.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4251 - September 25, 2018, 08:49 AM
    Quote
    I do get your point. If all these inscriptions are genuine, it proves that a big part of the islamic tradition is true.


    Nope. Unfortunately it proves nothing.

    Quote
    Upto now, revisionists pointed out that there was ZERO proof that even these first caliphs ever existed.

    What revisionists?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4252 - September 25, 2018, 09:07 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 10:51 PM
    They do not need to. You are missing the point. Assuming the inscription is genuine, then it strengthens the notion that these personalities mentioned in the sources existed.


    But not as Companions who lived in Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem. These personalities do not attests themselves that they are "Companions" of any "prophet" and that they come from "Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem". In any contemporary documents.

    Quote
    The content of the inscription does support this: mentions the Messenger and the three persons who witnessed.


    Mentions the Messenger that is described in the Quranic texts, nothing else.

    Quote
    The content of the inscription, the persons, match with what the sources tell us as well, the dates, and the location, that is. Anyways.


    But these personalities never  mentions (in any documents)  that they know the Messenger, that they are "Companions" of any "prophet" and that they come from "Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem"
    Therefore nothing in these inscription attests what say the narrative about them.
    As I already said, the narrative of the 9th c. attributes to personalities of the past a history that these personalities never corroborate or validate, by allusions in any document (epigraphic, archaeologic or scribal). Ne-ver.
    Therefore these inscription attest of nothing about the origin of the Quranic text, and do not attest (at all) the existence of a "prophet". The only reason they mention a "messenger" is the Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4253 - September 25, 2018, 09:20 AM
    BOOK REVIEW
    The Dome of the Rock and Its Umayyad Mosaic Inscriptions
    https://www.academia.edu/37473411/Review_of_Marcus_Milwright_The_Dome_of_the_Rock_and_Its_Umayyad_Mosaic_Inscriptions
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4254 - September 25, 2018, 10:07 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: Marc S on September 24, 2018, 09:56 PM
    Muslim tradition
    is telling us that Abbassids caliphs contrary to their Umayyads counterparts were doing frequent pilgrimages to Mecca and Medina and spent huge amount of money to maintain and improve those 2 towns. Scholars like Azraqi and Tabari tell us about numerous stories on those building works by the Abbassids. Among those, Harun al-Rashid (764-809) and his wife Zubayda are specially brought into the limelight (The Hajj :
    The Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca and the Holy Places , F.E. Peters).

    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 09:58 PM
    The traditional sources .......................

    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 10:51 PM
    They do not need to. You are missing the point. Assuming the inscription is genuine, ...................


    One should not assume anything about unknown / unauthenticated history dear Mahgraye., The only thing you have in such circumstances is keeping options open for exploration..

    As far as that good old man Francis Edward Peters is concerned  He wrote stories from Available Islamic Stories So Muslim apologists and Islamic book stores popularize and sell his books., 

    But... but  this curious lurker
    Quote from: curious-lurker link=topic=27568.msg880420#msg8804 curious-lurker 20 date=1537824912
    Do/can we know when/how the switch to current Mecca occurred? Apologies for the noob questions lol

    question is important...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4255 - September 25, 2018, 02:14 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 24, 2018, 09:55 PM
    Yes, Jacob's text is cryptic. It is perfectly possible that he does not know the exact place apart "East" and a name 'Kaba'.



    I think he did and his reader too because he doesn't give any detail but he also says " the patriarchial places of their races".

    So the question is what is the well known patriarchial place for the arabs ? Where Ismael settled ? Somewhere else ?

    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 09:13 PM
    Crone thinks so.


    Doesn't she think that it might be linked with Mount Garizim, the sacred mountain of the Samaritans ? 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4256 - September 25, 2018, 02:21 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 25, 2018, 10:07 AM

    As far as that good old man Francis Edward Peters is concerned  He wrote stories from Available Islamic Stories So Muslim apologists and Islamic book stores popularize and sell his books., 


    I don't think every is fake in the muslim traditions. I am convinced that the narrative builds on real events that they interpret differently or on which they elaborate their stories.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4257 - September 25, 2018, 03:38 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 25, 2018, 02:21 PM
    I don't think every ((STORY)) is fake in the mMuslim traditions. I am convinced that the narrative builds on real events that they interpret differently or on which they elaborate their stories.

    well we are all convinced on Islamic narrations that have  proofs ... but  Marc S let me give it straight ..Here is the 1st  Islamic story time line
    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. Seventh century
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.

    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.

    621-622; Prophet Migrates to Madina
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet

     

    I will give you the Islamic  stories after the death of Prophet of Islam in the year 632., but you tell me Islamic stories that come out  of classical Islamic history  that you think are true from the Birth of Prophet of Islam to his death ..

    So start ((a folder or in this folder)) telling the readers true Islamic stories
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4258 - September 25, 2018, 04:23 PM
     It is perfectly possible that he does not know the exact place apart "East" and a name 'Kaba'.

    Quote from: Marc S on September 25, 2018, 02:14 PM
    I think he did and his reader too


    Not necessarily I'm afraid. It is only an important point for us today. Not necessarily  for its readers at that time. The important point for its Christian readers at that time that he communicates to them  is that they pray to the East like the Christians, as they confess like them that Jesus is the Messiah. I think Jacob doesn't know any more than that.

    Quote
    because he doesn't give any detail but he also says " the patriarchal places of their races".


    Without giving any name...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4259 - September 25, 2018, 06:32 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 09:13 PM
    Crone thinks so.


    Outside of the Quran and the Hadith, there are a bunch of poems (some of them by pre-Islamic poets) that talk about Mecca and also include some geographic locations that place it to where it is today. For instance a pre-Islamic poet called Mudad Al-Jurhumi describes how his tribe was kicked out of Mecca by their rival tribe Khuza'a and the grief being felt:

    كأن لم يكن بين الحجون إلى الصّفا .... أنيسٌ ولم يسمر بمكة سامر

    As if no friends existed between Al Hajoon and Al Safa and never were there any revelers in Mecca.

    Al Safa is of course the famous mountain that is part of the Hajj pilgrimage, and Al Hajoon is a local mountain that overlooks Mecca.

    A little bit later we have Umar ibn Abi Rabea who was active during Uthman's rule and his infamous love poem (where he tries to flirt with a beautiful pilgrim while she's doing the Tawaf!):

    الاسم سلمى .. والمنازل مكه .. والدار ما بين الحجون وغيلمه

    The name is Salma and my home is in Mecca. My house is between Al Hajoon and Ghailama.

    Here's the poem in song form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvD40DmaWUI

    which got the singer Talal Madah into hot water with the religious elite so he exiled himself to Egypt. Anyway. Again we see Al Hajoon being mentioned, and also the well of Ghailama. All of which are Meccan sites that are still around today.

    Now I realize that these poems are oral tribal lore that weren't written down until much later, but there are so many of them (all with their own back story), how do Crone et al explain them? Are they all fabricated? Is that seen as plausible?
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