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Qur'anic studies today
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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4170 - September 19, 2018, 09:55 PM

    Quote
    I was just reminded of the Jerusalem 32 Inscription from 32 AH/652 CE that mentions three of Muḥammad’s companions—ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. ʿAwf, Abū ʿUbaydah b. al-Jarrāḥ, and Muʿāwiyah. The information provided by the inscription is in line with the historical data.


    It is in line with nothing : these people never affirms anything that match the narrative : "prophet", Mecca, Medina, Zem-Zem. None documents they produces attest this narrative. There is nothing. Nada. End of story.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4171 - September 19, 2018, 10:15 PM

    What about the inscription? It even mentions the rasūl (i.e. Muḥammad). One must always be open to new evidence. There is not need to say “end of story” as if nothing can change.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4172 - September 19, 2018, 10:29 PM

    Quote
    What about the inscription? It even mentions the rasūl


    The rasūl of the Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4173 - September 19, 2018, 10:32 PM

    The rasūl as in Muḥammad. The inscription reads: “the protection of Allah and the guarantee of his Messenger.”
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4174 - September 19, 2018, 11:07 PM

    Quote
    The rasūl as in Muḥammad. The inscription reads: “the protection of Allah and the guarantee of his Messenger.”


    The rasūl of the Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4175 - September 19, 2018, 11:14 PM

    Don't understand. Maybe the same person. In sum, and assuming it is indeed genuine, the inscription uses “the Messenger” in the traditionally understood as reference to a historical individual.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4176 - September 20, 2018, 02:21 AM

    Will check out the article, thanks Smiley

    Regarding Ptolemy, I think Ian D. Morris has argued against the alleged attestation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4177 - September 20, 2018, 02:32 AM

    No problem. Morris discusses another alleged mention which probably does not refer to Mecca. I, on the other hand, wrote about a completely different mentions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4178 - September 20, 2018, 02:59 AM

    Mentioning Ian D. Morris, he even recommends Tom Holland's book for those who want to know more about  the history of Islam. What does this tell about his position?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4179 - September 20, 2018, 05:16 AM

    Revisionists:

    Dan gibson relies quite heavily on the tradition to prove Mecca= Petra.

    Is he a revisionist?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4180 - September 20, 2018, 05:22 AM

    Yeah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4181 - September 20, 2018, 05:23 AM

    What about the inscription? It even mentions the rasūl (i.e. Muḥammad). One must always be open to new evidence. There is not need to say “end of story” as if nothing can change.


    Again that word rasūl is a generic term  could be used for many different characters ., in fact Quran uses that word very generously   http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rsl

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4182 - September 20, 2018, 05:44 AM

    Here it is used the traditional sense of the word.

    .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4183 - September 20, 2018, 06:04 AM

    If genuine you say Maggraye,

    But all islamic epigraphy is genuine, we know that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4184 - September 20, 2018, 07:32 AM

    Don't understand. Maybe the same person. In sum, and assuming it is indeed genuine, the inscription uses “the Messenger” in the traditionally understood as reference to a historical individual.
     32 Inscription from 32 AH/652 CE that mentions three of Muḥammad’s companions—ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. ʿAwf, Abū ʿUbaydah b. al-Jarrāḥ, and Muʿāwiyah.


     As reference to a/the figure which seems to be "described" in the Quranic texts. And nothing else. ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. ʿAwf, Abū ʿUbaydah b. al-Jarrāḥ, and Muʿāwiyah  have never seen "Muhammad", they never mention Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem in any of what they left as documents, epigraphic, archaeologic or scribal. There is nothing, none attestation of theses qualities (Companion, Mecca, Zem Zem) in any of what these people left behind them which will be attributed to them by the 9th c. narrative. End of story. Bring us source that say the contrary. There is none for the simple reason that these people are not what the 9th c. narrative say they are (Companion, Mecca, Zem Zem).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4185 - September 20, 2018, 10:09 AM

    If genuine you say Maggraye,

    But all Islamic epigraphy is genuine, we know that.

    I am not sure how to understand that word in context of  your post dear mundi  Cheesy

    I guess I will take that as  "all Islamic epigraphy/inscriptions are REAL  and are NOT internet morphed pictures "

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4186 - September 20, 2018, 01:33 PM

    Hmm I missed  Altara comment  and it has names...  Names of people living during Prophet of Islam  time are very important

    ............ ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. ʿAwf, Abū ʿUbaydah b. al-Jarrāḥ, and Muʿāwiyah  have never seen "Muhammad" , they never mention Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem in any of what they left as documents, epigraphic, archaeologic or scribal.................

    well I don't believe that .. I THIN K ALTARA IS WRONG... If they were real I am sure they must have seen SOME Muhammad(PBUH..  some parts of Muhammad(PBUH) ., how is that possible?? after all All those three guys are sahaba RA. But that is a different matter  for now the names.. let me list them from Altara post

      1.) ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. Awf   2). ʿ  Abū ʿUbaydah b al-Jarrāḥ, and  3). Muʿāwiyah   So  three names.,  who were they ? who are they today??  and I am not sure where from Altara got them in to his post but I can mention not just  three names but  some 100s of names of Sahaba  and their stories .. I guess people living in west knows very little about  Prophet's companions(PBUT)., anyways .. let us read some Islamic stories  on those three guys

    *****************************************************************************************************************************

    Quote
    1), 1.) ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. 'Awf :   So Abd al-Rahman ibn 'Awf was born in  581 CE and died in 654 CE was one of the companions of the  prophet Muhammad and he is known for being one of the Ten Promised Paradise.     His parents were both from the Zuhra clan of the Quraysh tribe in Mecca. His father was 'Awf ibn 'Abd-'Awf and his mother was al-Shifaa bint 'Awf   His original name was Abdu Amru ("servant of Amru"). It was Muhammad who renamed him 'Abd al-Rahman ("servant of the Most Merciful").[  It is also said that his original name was Abdul Kaaba.  His name has also been transliterated as Abdel Rahman Ibn Auf.


    In short The grave of 'Abdul-Rahman ibn 'Awf in Amman is in  Jordan ., was a Companion of Muhammad..... Born  in Mecca in the year   581  and died in present Jordan in  the year 654 CE  and let me remind the readers Prophet of Islam Muhammad was born in the year 571  and died in the year  632..  SO PROPHET OF ISLAM WAS A 10 YEAR OLD BOY WHEN  Abdul-Rahman ibn 'Awf  was born.............


    Quote
    2), Abū ʿUbaydah b al-Jarrāḥ. :  His appearance was striking. He was slim and tall. His face was bright and he had a sparse beard. It was pleasing to look at him and refreshing to meet him. He was extremely courteous and humble and quite shy. Yet in a tough situation he would become strikingly serious and alert, resembling the flashing blade of a sword in his severity and sharpness.

    He was described as the "Amin" or Custodian of Muhammad's community. His full name was Aamir ibn Abdullah ibn al-Jarrah. He was known as Abu Ubaydah. Of him Abdullah ibn Umar, one of the companions of the Prophet, said:
    "Three persons in the tribe of Quraysh were most prominent, had the best character and were the most modest. If they spoke to you, they would not deceive you and if you spoke to them, they would not accuse you of Iying: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, Uthman ibn Affan and Abu Ubaydah ibn al-Jarrah."

    Abu Ubaydah was one of the first persons to accept Islam. He became a Muslim one day after Abu Bakr. In fact, it was through Abu Bakr that he became a Muslim. Abu Bakr took him, Abdur Rahman ibn Auf, Uthman ibn Maz'un and al-Arqam ibn abi al Arqam to the Prophet, upon whom be peace, and together they declared their acceptance of the Truth. They were thus the first pillars on which the great edifice of Islam was built.

    Abu Ubaydah lived through the harsh experience, which the Muslims went through in Makkah, from beginning to end. With the early Muslims, he endured the insults and the violence, the pain and the sorrow of that experience. In every trial and test he remained firm and constant in his belief in God and His prophet. One of the most harrowing experiences he had to go through, however, was at the battle of Badr.

    Abu Ubaydah was in the vanguard of the Muslim forces, fighting with might and main and as someone who was not at all afraid of death. The Quraysh cavalry were extremely wary of him and avoided coming face to face with him.

    Quote
    One man in particular, however, kept on pursuing Abu Ubaydah wherever he turned and Abu Ubaydah tried his best to keep out of his way and avoid an encounter with him.mThe man plunged into the attack. Abu Ubaydah tried desperately to avoid him. Eventually the man succeeded in blocking Abu Ubaydah's path and stood as a barrier between him and the Quraysh. They were now face to face with each other. Abu Ubaydah could not contain himself any longer. He struck one blow to the man's head. The man fell to the ground and died instantly.

    Do not try to guess who this man was. It was, as stated earlier, one of the most harrowing experiences that Abu Ubaydah had to go through, how harrowing, it is almost impossible to imagine. The man in fact was Abdullah ibn al-Jarrah, the father of Abu Ubaydah!  Abu Ubaydah obviously did not want to kill his father but in the actual battle between faith in God and polytheism,  choice open to him was profoundly his duty  to kill and it could be said that he did not kill his father.,   but he only killed the polytheism in the person of his father.


    well That is the great story of our 2nd sahaba from Altara post..  and that is from http://www.eislamicarabic.com/the-sahaba-stories-biographies/abu-ubaydah-ibn-al-jarrah-sahaba.html

     Indeed in Islam in war situation YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO KILL YOUR PARENTS., In fact it did happen  even in   21st century... Anyways .. the third guy is our   Muʿāwiyah and is very well known story .. in fact

    Quote
    3). Muʿāwiyah :   .. precisely Muawiyah bin Abi-Sufyan was born in Mecca  to Abu Sufyan ibn Harb and Hind bint Utbah (602 CE) into the Banu Umayya sub-clan of the Banu Abd-Shams clan of the Quraysh tribe. The Quraysh controlled the city of Mecca (in the west of present-day Saudi Arabia) and the Banu Abd-Shams were among the most influential of its citizens. In his youth, a stranger looked at Muawiyah and said; I think that this man will rule over his people. Upon hearing him, Hind his mother replied; May I lose him if he were to rule only over his people. His father Abu Sufyan ibn Harb struggled against Islam until Muhammad's army entered Mecca in 630.

    Muawiyah, Muhammad and Ali shared the same great-great grandfather, 'Abd Manaf bin Qusay, who had four sons: Hashim, Muttalib, Nawfal, and Abdu Shams. Hashim was the great grandfather of Ali and Muhammad. Umayyah bin Abdu Shams was the great grandfather of Muawiyah..

    Muawiyah and remaining members of his family were open opponents of the Muslims before the ascendancy of Muhammad. Along with his two older brothers Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan and Utbah, Muawiyah was one of the members of the hunting party of his maternal uncle Walid bin Utbah that pursue........................

     Muʿāwiyah ibn Abī Sufyān; 602 – 26 April 680) was  fifth caliph after the Rashidun Caliphate of Islam. His sister Ramla bint Abi Sufyan known as Umm e Habiba was married to Prophet Muhammad so he was brother in law of Prophet Muhammad. He was the first who established the Umayyad dynasty in Islam of the caliphate,[4][5] and was the second caliph from the Umayyad clan, the first being Uthman ibn Affan.


    ***********************************************************************************************************************

    See that ....there are so many stories on These guys .. we can fill books and books on them and  our Altara singing same song since he joined  and that is .. oh hell.. you guys figure it out.. I already wrote that in a post

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4187 - September 20, 2018, 02:15 PM

    Yeez,

    I appreciate your long posts but can you summarize your point? Would love to understand ...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4188 - September 20, 2018, 02:17 PM

    Ashura today...

    Read somewhere that historicity of Hussein is as much a question mark as Mohammed's. Does anyone know what is the latest info on this from a scholarly standpoint?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4189 - September 20, 2018, 02:19 PM

    Maybe Moezzi, Moderassi, Kohlberg can answer
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4190 - September 20, 2018, 02:27 PM

    Yeez,

    I appreciate your long posts but can you summarize your point? Would love to understand ...

    well I was trying to prove Altara was wrong in his statement  dear mundi., and for that I have to write Islamic stories .. here you answer Altara .. 
    As reference to a/the figure which seems to be "described" in the Quranic texts. And nothing else. ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. ʿAwf, Abū ʿUbaydah b. al-Jarrāḥ, and Muʿāwiyah  have never seen "Muhammad", they never mention Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem in any of what they left as documents, epigraphic, archaeologic or scribal. There is nothing, none attestation of theses qualities (Companion, Mecca, Zem Zem) in any of what these people left behind them which will be attributed to them by the 9th c. narrative. End of story. Bring us source that say the contrary. There is none for the simple reason that these people are not what the 9th c. narrative say they are (Companion, Mecca, Zem Zem).

    and Tell him HE IS WRONG.... very wrong and I don't like his song..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4191 - September 20, 2018, 09:04 PM

    Dear Mundi - Going back to your question and suggestion concerning the author(s) of the initial Quran, I think that - somewhat in line with what you wrote - that they might have been written at the hands of literati Christian (Nazorean Jewish-Christian?) monks in a Syrian monastery. As for the location of this monetary, only God knows.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4192 - September 20, 2018, 10:00 PM

    .........................Only God knows. ........................

    yes.. Allah knows and Allah knows the best...  but what is god?, how do we define god ? and how is god in your neck of the world dear Mahgraye  ?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4193 - September 20, 2018, 10:09 PM

    It was only a literary and poetic expression of sorts, dear Yeezevee. One does not need to take it seriously.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4194 - September 21, 2018, 01:50 AM

    What is going on with this verse?

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالذِّكْرِ لَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ ۖ وَإِنَّهُ لَكِتَابٌ عَزِيزٌ
    Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed, it is a mighty Book.

    Potential scribal error? Are there are variants that have the complete verse?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4195 - September 21, 2018, 01:51 AM

    Hmm. Good question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4196 - September 21, 2018, 06:04 AM

    Quote
    Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed, it is a mighty Book.


    Amazing that verses like this didn't get corrected later on. Shows again how quickly canonisation happened?

    Arabic readers: how does this read in Arabic? Going to rasm only, how much freedom is there to read something completely different?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4197 - September 21, 2018, 08:53 AM

    What is going on with this verse?

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالذِّكْرِ لَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ ۖ وَإِنَّهُ لَكِتَابٌ عَزِيزٌ
    Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed, it is a mighty Book.

    Potential scribal error? Are there are variants that have the complete verse?

    helooooo   curious-lurker ................  lurking the forum for a loo00000ng time  since April 2015  probably before that...?? well only 6 posts?  thatis all??  and out of them 4 are about Quran.??

     So question to you.,   Are you reading Quran by yourself  OR READING SOME CRITIC OF QURAN WHO PICKS & CHOOSES A VERSE/FEW WORDS from a verse  and try to tell Muslim folks that this book is NOT WORD OF ALLAH/GOD??

    what is the goal dear curious-lurker??  

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4198 - September 21, 2018, 02:33 PM

    Altara - As you are more familiar with Gallez and his thesis, considering that you are fluent in French, could you please enlighten me whether Gallez opines that the Judeo-Nazarene believed that the Jesus is the Son of God?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4199 - September 21, 2018, 02:51 PM

    Quote
    What is going on with this verse?

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالذِّكْرِ لَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ ۖ وَإِنَّهُ لَكِتَابٌ عَزِيزٌ
    Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed, it is a mighty Book.

    Potential scribal error? Are there are variants that have the complete verse?

    Hmm. Good question.

    Amazing that verses like this didn't get corrected later on. Shows again how quickly canonisation happened?

    Arabic readers: how does this read in Arabic? Going to rasm only, how much freedom is there to read something completely different?


    SO WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THAT SERMON SONNET?  VERSE 41 OF SURAH 41??....  
    well nothing....  it is just a statement .....  anyways..


    Surah Fussilat  ....Verse 41
     


    in-nal-ladhiyna kafaruu bidh dhikri lam-maa jaa-ahum* wa in-nahuu la kitaabun 'Aziyz

    Quote
    Sahih International: Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed, it is a mighty Book.

    Pickthall: Lo! those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it cometh unto them (are guilty), for lo! it is an unassailable Scripture.

    Yusuf Ali: Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.

    Shakir: Surely those who disbelieve in the reminder when it comes to them, and most surely it is a Mighty Book:

    Muhammad Sarwar: The disbelievers (do not know) that the Quran which was sent to them is certainly a glorious Book.

    Mohsin Khan: Verily, those who disbelieved in the Reminder (i.e. the Quran) when it came to them (shall receive the punishment). And verily, it is an honourable respected Book (because it is Allah's Speech, and He has protected it from corruption, etc.). (See V.15:9]

    Arberry: Those who disbelieve in the Remembrance when it comes to them -- and surely it is a Book Sublime;

    Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:  Indeed those who denied the Remembrance when it came to them - they are truly ruined; and indeed it is an honourable Book.


    incidentally   there are more than 50 English translations are out there on Quran ..  So what is the problem in that verse?  No problem., I don't see any problem..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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