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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4080 - September 16, 2018, 12:28 AM

    Here is what Sinai wrote: “The conventional placement of the genesis of the Qurʾan in todays Mecca and Medina is by no means beyond reasonable doubt” (for the quote: The Qurʾan: A Historical Critical Introduction, Edinburgh, 2017, p. 59; for the entire discussion: pp. 40–77).

    Sinai argues for an Arabian provenance for the Quranic corpus (convincingly, I might add, at least for parts of the corpus), but, and as the above quote inform us, he is open to an extra-Arabian origins as well. It seems to me that parts of the Quran that reflect an Arabian context might have indeed originated somewhere in Western Arabia and not in Syro-Palestine (on this, see Sinai, Qurʾan, 40–77; and also Süleyman Dost’s doctoral dissertation). This is unlike the parts displaying a strong Christian context.

    As for Dye, he thinks that that the consonantal skeleton (rasm) of the Quran reached closure somewhere in the second half of the seventh century—that is, between 650 and 705 AD. This is unlike Sinai, who thinks it reached closure around 650 and that there are no further addition after that. Sinai also defends this position in his book as well. His arguments are the same (albeit not as detailed) as those presented in his two part article on this very topic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4081 - September 16, 2018, 01:43 AM

    Here is what Sinai wrote: “The conventional placement of the genesis of the Qurʾan in todays Mecca and Medina is by no means beyond reasonable doubt” (for the quote: The Qurʾan: A Historical Critical Introduction, Edinburgh, 2017, p. 59; for the entire discussion: pp. 40–77).

    Quote
    Sinai argues for an Arabian provenance for the Quranic corpus (convincingly, I might add, at least for parts of the corpus), but, and as the above quote inform us, he is open to an extra-Arabian origins as well. It seems to me that parts of the Quran that reflect an Arabian context might have indeed originated somewhere in Western Arabia and not in Syro-Palestine (on this, see Sinai, Qurʾan, 40–77; and also Süleyman Dost’s doctoral dissertation). This is unlike the parts displaying a strong Christian context..........

     

    well   Nicolai  Sinai and his types also should start thinking about  about EVOLUTION OF   MULTIPLE MUHAMMAD'S OF PRESENT ISLAMIC STORIES  and a "Muhammad(PREACHER) of some parts of  Quran"  having   extra-Arab/ extra Arabian origins

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4082 - September 16, 2018, 02:43 AM

    Audience and Quran:

    Quote
    "read out loud to "the public" " Yes. According to the narrative. Do you believe the narrative? I don't.

    Quote
    Question: What would have been a realistic composition of the public?


    Not the one described by the narrative


    Altara,

    Can you imagine any 7 C audience that would have understood the Quranic elements that 21st century scholars assume the audience understood?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4083 - September 16, 2018, 09:02 AM

    Here is what Sinai wrote: “The conventional placement of the genesis of the Qurʾan in todays Mecca and Medina is by no means beyond reasonable doubt” (for the quote: The Qurʾan: A Historical Critical Introduction, Edinburgh, 2017, p. 59; for the entire discussion: pp. 40–77).


    I do not have the book, so I cannot really see... If he feels obliged to say this kind of things the way he does, i.e, (for me...) not so clearly, it is because he knows very well that "Mecca/Medina/Kaba" is now  historically untenable. That was not the case 20 or 30 years ago. But he displays that he  believes that "prophet Muhammad" have existed  because it is "clear that we have all the reasons to believe that he existed (!)" (see his podcasts : https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/introducing-quran)
    Why not? But then the question is : where? Question to which he (of course) does not answer because he knows very well that what recount the narrative is improbable in Late Antiquity because that none allusions exist anywhere about a man to whom God is talking during 20+ years. On Mars, yes. On Earth not. The supposed "Mars" (Mecca) in Western Arabia, far far away from any influential religious people, constantly affirmed by the narrative because (of course) it would undermine the affirmation of the "prophecy", has never existed, and he knows it. Then to the question: "where then?", is necessarily  responded, due to the geography, that it is with the religious people that the narrative is trying to get away from them to not undermine the "prophetical" contact with God.

    Quote
    Sinai argues for an Arabian provenance for the Quranic corpus (convincingly, I might add, at least for parts of the corpus), but, and as the above quote inform us, he is open to an extra-Arabian origins as well. .


    Maybe, but I note that he seems not really interested to address this  extra-Arabian origins historically because it is dangerous (and he knows it...). That is why academic scholars are trapped, as they are public people, they cannot really do their jobs freely. They risk their lives.

    Quote
    It seems to me that parts of the Quran that reflect an Arabian context might have indeed originated somewhere in Western Arabia and not in Syro-Palestine (on this, see Sinai, Qurʾan, 40–77; and also Süleyman Dost’s doctoral dissertation). This is unlike the parts displaying a strong Christian context.

    What lies under this Sinai argument is that he'd seem want to make believe that it is not possible for someone to write something (reflecting an Arabian context) outside his own culture and that what is written in a certain language must come necessarily from someone of the ethnicity (therefore geography, therefore here peninsula "Arabia") to which belong this language. Both assertions are scientifically nonsense. It is not because what is describe in a text about  religious practices of Arabs (Sinai podcast #2) this means that the writer of this description is Arab. It is yet what Sinai is implying implicitly whereas it is inexact.
    Moreover,  I'm still waiting to someone to tell me what  new specific  "Arabian context" or new  information about Arabs that  was not available in the 6 or 7th c. to the Orient people about Arabs, the Quranic corpus  brings to us which would prove that the Quranic text is perforce coming from persons of Arab ethnicity (therefore geography, therefore here peninsula "Arabia")? There is nothing. Nada. Therefore, considering this, I'm sceptic to the affirmation that the fact of  reflecting an "Arabian context"  or descriptions of religious practices means necessarily Arabs genuine origin. I have no evidence of that.

    Quote
    As for Dye, he thinks that the consonantal skeleton (rasm) of the Quran reached closure somewhere in the second half of the seventh century—that is, between 650 and 705 AD. This is unlike Sinai, who thinks it reached closure around 650 and that there are no further addition after that. Sinai also defends this position in his book as well. His arguments are the same (albeit not as detailed) as those presented in his two part article on this very topic.


    Yes. Sinai does not believe in the Abd al Malik stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4084 - September 16, 2018, 09:03 AM

    Audience and Quran:

    Altara,

    Can you imagine any 7 C audience that would have understood the Quranic elements that 21st century scholars assume the audience understood?


    Reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4085 - September 16, 2018, 11:51 AM

    Audience:

    The only audience I can imagine that would have been able to be convinced by the Quranic details (and not the reductionist earthly message: 4 wives, sex slaves, wife beating, conquest...) are the monks in a monastery.

    So if I would want to guess what the author and audience looked like, I would think a rebellious monk and his brothers in the monastery trying to break out. Reminds me a bit of Luther, no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4086 - September 16, 2018, 11:58 AM

    The Quranic message as presented by Mundi is, in my opinion, very reductionist and simplistic. Maybe I can elaborate later but why could parts of the Quran have been written by monks in monasteries? Some evidence suggests this, not least the very name Quran, which derives from the Syriac qəryānā.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4087 - September 16, 2018, 12:03 PM

    I think the Quranic message is sophisticated and complicated. So much that it cannot have been used as conversion method. For conversion, simple slogans would have been used targeting very earthly matters in my opinion. It has always been the case for all religions. The complicated theological message comes later.

    So where could such a sophisticated, new theological message have been developed? And this for an audience capable of understanding too? I gave you my suggestion Maggraye, what would you suggest?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4088 - September 16, 2018, 01:52 PM

    The Quranic message as presented by Mundi is,...

    IT IS NOT A MESSAGE BOOK.,
    IT IS A BOOK OF ITS TIMES
    IT IS A BOOK OF SONNETS AND SONGS ..

    All so-called messages of Quran were already there before birth of Islam before 500AD  dear  Mahgraye

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4089 - September 17, 2018, 08:13 PM

    Yeez,

    Do you have any suggestion for an adequate place where the Quran could have been written  and understood (apparently being understood is a requirement for a book in 7C)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4090 - September 17, 2018, 08:39 PM

    Quote
    (apparently being understood is a requirement for a book in 7C)


    Apparently, you're still not really convinced of that. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4091 - September 17, 2018, 10:18 PM

    How about northern Syria?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4092 - Yesterday at 11:24 AM

    Apparently, you're still not really convinced of that. Wink


    I am willing to be convinced Altara. Let us assume that being understood is a requirement for a book to be written. It is not enough to just give an area where the requirements for author and audience could be met, one has to be more specific.

    I already gave a suggestion for the setting (a rogue monastery).  Northern Syria Magrayye? Why not. But in what setting? No the local bazaar I would think.
    Hope you all join in this thought exercise.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4093 - Yesterday at 02:58 PM

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/SYRIA6.JPG
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4094 - Yesterday at 03:00 PM

    Quote
    Yeez,

    Do you have any suggestion for an adequate place where the Quran could have been written  and understood (apparently being understood is a requirement for a book in 7C)?

    they are two different questions dear mundi ., People who are NOT from Islam and ARE  university Academic Islamic scholars themselves DID NOT UNDERSTAND QURAN even in the present day... and forget understanding  I bet many of them didn't even read whole book in its entirety  


    ..............one has to be more specific.............

    I already gave a suggestion for the setting (a rogue monastery).  Northern Syria Magrayye? Why not. But in what setting? No the local bazaar I would think.
    Hope you all join in this thought exercise.


     As far as present book coming from  present northern Syria/Egypt./Israel/Jordan /northern Arabia / present Iraq/Iran borders or Yemen or at a GIVEN SPECIFIC PLACE  is concerned ...  THE BIGGEST UNPROVEN ASSUMPTION  WE HAVE IS  ..

    1). whole book is written by one person
    2). All of it is written at one place..

    So question is ., can we confidently say whole book is written at one place by one person ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4095 - Yesterday at 03:02 PM


    what does that wiki  pic prove  Mahgraye ?? these Mecca ..Madina were in Syria??  and I wonder whether you can give ORIGINAL ARTICLE WIKI LINK., instead of just that stored pic link dear Mahgraye

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4096 - Yesterday at 04:11 PM

    Quote
    I am willing to be convinced Altara.


    We have to be careful to not falling into the trap of anachronism. It it not because we experience at our time some phenomenons that they can be applied to other times. It is called "projection".

    Quote
    Let us assume that being understood is a requirement for a book to be written.


    In Antiquity yes, I've explained why.
    Quote
    It is not enough to just give an area where the requirements for author and audience could be met, one has to be more specific.


    Of course. Each have to reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4097 - Yesterday at 04:12 PM



    Yes, it is a map from the Gallez book.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4098 - Yesterday at 04:47 PM

    Altara,

    What about a book like the Apocalypse? Did people understand when it was written? (honest question)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4099 - Yesterday at 04:58 PM

    Quote
    What about a book like the Apocalypse? Did people understand when it was written? (honest question)


    What you think?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4100 - Yesterday at 05:04 PM

    Acopalypse:

    No, I dont think the book was meant to be understood,that was also part of its appeal.

    In middle ages, some books were written in a secret script. Did someone understand? The author did... Books were still expensive in that time, your argument doesnt really work here.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4101 - Yesterday at 05:19 PM

    Quote
    No, I dont think the book was meant to be understood,that was also part of its appeal.


    A book at that time is never written for nothing. If it is a cryptic book, the human mind will interpret it. Thus, it will be understood.
    Quote
    In middle ages, some books were written in a secret script. Did someone understand? The author did...


    And the recipients did too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4102 - Yesterday at 06:09 PM

    Yeah. The map was originally made by the French archaeologist René Dussaud. You can see it in his work Topographie historique de la Syrie antique et médiévale (1927).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4103 - Yesterday at 07:08 PM

    The map is part of gallez'theory I guess?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4104 - Yesterday at 07:23 PM

    It is. But one does not need to accept his theory in order to find the location as the possible place of birth for the Quran. Other scholars such as Crone also favored a Levantine setting. Quraysh is also located somewhere around here and is also mentioned on the map.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4105 - Yesterday at 07:32 PM

    Robert Hoyland - Mount Nebo, Jabal Ramm, and the status of Christian Palestinian Aramaic and Old Arabic in Late Roman Palestine and Arabia

    https://www.academia.edu/3658961/Mount_Nebo_Ramm_Aramaic_and_Arabic_in_Palestine_and_Arabia
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4106 - Yesterday at 07:47 PM

    Hmm. Aramaic once again. Hoyland also wrote an article (2008) that concluded that Syriac was not the main literary language in the seventh-century Ḥijāz in Western Arabia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4107 - Yesterday at 07:48 PM

    https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/21wgpvr3wg2ha2ht/images/10-12638e6c9e.jpg

    Close to Syria.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4108 - Yesterday at 08:52 PM


    I have a question pertaining to the nature of the Arabic alphabet that has a direct impact on the Quran itself. Is it true that imperfect stage of the Arabic alphabet could not have given rise to a written literature, and thus, the Quran could only have derived from a Christian Syriac milieu?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4109 - Yesterday at 09:40 PM

    Quote
    Was the alphabet of the Arabic language so imperfect as to not having been able to give rise to a book such as the Quran


    I have a question pertaining to the nature of the Arabic alphabet that has a direct impact on the Quran itself. Is it true that imperfect stage of the Arabic alphabet could not have given rise to a written literature, and thus, the Quran could only have derived from a Christian Syriac milieu?


    Believing in the narrative (with a "Mecca/Medina/Kaba/prophet" and all the rest) does not allow  to respond to your fundamental questions.
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