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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4020 - September 12, 2018, 08:15 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 12, 2018, 07:43 PM
    We know the Nabateans acquired immense wealth by the incense route. Escavations from Aila (Aqaba)  show that the port stayed active early 6th C.

    What did the Nabateans/Arabs do to earn a living after the collaps of the incense route? I would think they continued trading with the East, probably on a smaller less conspicuous scale. Could Arabic have been the trading language of these people? Could that have been the incentive to keep their own language instead of switching over to the elitarian Syriac and Greek? Could that ahve been the reason why there is not much visible remaining Arabic pre 7C? Arabic was intensively used for other purposes than local external expressions like inscriptions or religious rites?

    As far as I know the trading language of the Red Sea was Greek. That’s why there are Greek inscriptions on Socotra: http://www.academia.edu/6589017/Mediterranean_World_and_Socotra._1._Greek_Inscriptions_at_Ḥoq._2._Greeks_on_Soqoṭra._Commercial_Contacts_and_Early_Christian_Missions
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4021 - September 12, 2018, 08:29 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 12, 2018, 07:12 PM
    Is that anywhere near Aleppo and Damascus?


    4. On the road from Beroa to Edessa adjoining the high-way is a waste over which
    the Saracens roam to and fro without having any fixed abode. Through fear of them travellers in those parts assemble in numbers, so that by mutual assistance they may escape impending ...

    Jerome,  « The Life of Malchus, the captive monk », Nicene And Post-Nicene Fathers, Serie II, Vol. VI, p.724.

    You can find regularly allusions to Arabs/Saracens/Ishmaelites in Palestine/Syria. >>> Academia is your friend.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4022 - September 12, 2018, 08:39 PM
    Noone’s arguing that there weren’t Arabic speakers in Syria and Palestine. Going back to mundi’s claim the question is what language was spoken in the countryside around Aleppo and Damascus (and not a few days journey away).
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4023 - September 12, 2018, 08:46 PM
    Altara - Could you link to some studies on the Didascaly as to why it is not a reliable source? Could only find one or two articles on academia.org, none which were relevant. Do you agree with the early dating of the Didascaly?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4024 - September 12, 2018, 09:24 PM
    Quote from: canaaniteshift
    There are linguistic arguments against the language of Quran being from north, however, but I those are well known.

    Could you give a brief summary of what the arguments are? (or links to studies making the arguments)
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4025 - September 12, 2018, 09:53 PM
    Quote
    Could you give a brief summary of what the arguments are? (or links to studies making the arguments).


    Al-Jallad thinks that the Quran could not have been written in Arabia Patrea. Per al-Jallad, even in the sixth century, the Quran's dialect and orthography do not match the Arabic inscriptions of the southern Levant.

    His colleague, Marijn van Putten, agrees and goes on to say that the linguistic facts of pre-Islamic Syro-Palestine are irreconcilable with Quranic Arabic.

    For van Putten, the loss of the glottal stop (hamza) is another indication that the Quran is not from Syro-Palestine, since such a feature is accosiated with Western Arabia and not Syro-Palestine, since the latter had retained it. One must assume - according to van Putten - an elaborate conspiracy by the Arab grammarians to connect the loss of the hamza with the Hijaz and not Petra if one wants to locate the Quran somewhere in Syro-Palestine.

    As for sources, please consult: Robert M. Kerr, “Aramaisms in the Qurʾān and their Significance,” in Christmas in the Koran: Luxenberg, Syriac, and the Near Eastern Judeo-Christian Background of Islam, ed. Ibn Warraq (USA: Prometheus Books, 2014), pp. 145–234; Guillaume Dye, “Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in the Qurʾānic Arabic,” in Arabic in Context: Celebrating 400 Years of Arabic at Leiden University, ed. Ahmad Al-Jallad (Leiden: Brill, 2017), pp. 337–371.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4026 - September 12, 2018, 10:06 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 08:46 PM
    Altara - Could you link to some studies on the Didascaly as to why it is not a reliable source? Could only find one or two articles on academia.org, none which were relevant. Do you agree with the early dating of the Didascaly?


    What you mean by "not a reliable source"?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4027 - September 12, 2018, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 12, 2018, 08:39 PM
    Noone’s arguing that there weren’t Arabic speakers in Syria and Palestine. Going back to mundi’s claim the question is what language was spoken in the countryside around Aleppo and Damascus (and not a few days journey away).


    When?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4028 - September 12, 2018, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 09:53 PM
    Al-Jallad thinks that the Quran could not have been written in Arabia Patrea. Per al-Jallad, even in the sixth century, the Quran's dialect and orthography do not match the Arabic inscriptions of the southern Levant.

    His colleague, Marijn van Putten, agrees and goes on to say that the linguistic facts of pre-Islamic Syro-Palestine are irreconcilable with Quranic Arabic.

    For van Putten, the loss of the glottal stop (hamza) is another indication that the Quran is not from Syro-Palestine, since such a feature is accosiated with Western Arabia and not Syro-Palestine, since the latter had retained it. One must assume - according to van Putten - an elaborate conspiracy by the Arab grammarians to connect the loss of the hamza with the Hijaz and not Petra if one wants to locate the Quran somewhere in Syro-Palestine.

    As for sources, please consult: Robert M. Kerr, “Aramaisms in the Qurʾān and their Significance,” in Christmas in the Koran: Luxenberg, Syriac, and the Near Eastern Judeo-Christian Background of Islam, ed. Ibn Warraq (USA: Prometheus Books, 2014), pp. 145–234; Guillaume Dye, “Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in the Qurʾānic Arabic,” in Arabic in Context: Celebrating 400 Years of Arabic at Leiden University, ed. Ahmad Al-Jallad (Leiden: Brill, 2017), pp. 337–371.


    What are linguistic facts? Beside Hamza what else?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4029 - September 12, 2018, 10:48 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 12, 2018, 10:11 PM
    When?

    In the centuries leading up to the conquests. If there’s any evidence for a change in the make-up of the population in this period that would also be interesting to know.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4030 - September 12, 2018, 10:59 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 09:53 PM
    Al-Jallad thinks that the Quran could not have been written in Arabia Patrea. Per al-Jallad, even in the sixth century, the Quran's dialect and orthography do not match the Arabic inscriptions of the southern Levant.

    His colleague, Marijn van Putten, agrees and goes on to say that the linguistic facts of pre-Islamic Syro-Palestine are irreconcilable with Quranic Arabic.

    For van Putten, the loss of the glottal stop (hamza) is another indication that the Quran is not from Syro-Palestine, since such a feature is accosiated with Western Arabia and not Syro-Palestine, since the latter had retained it. One must assume - according to van Putten - an elaborate conspiracy by the Arab grammarians to connect the loss of the hamza with the Hijaz and not Petra if one wants to locate the Quran somewhere in Syro-Palestine.

    As for sources, please consult: Robert M. Kerr, “Aramaisms in the Qurʾān and their Significance,” in Christmas in the Koran: Luxenberg, Syriac, and the Near Eastern Judeo-Christian Background of Islam, ed. Ibn Warraq (USA: Prometheus Books, 2014), pp. 145–234; Guillaume Dye, “Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in the Qurʾānic Arabic,” in Arabic in Context: Celebrating 400 Years of Arabic at Leiden University, ed. Ahmad Al-Jallad (Leiden: Brill, 2017), pp. 337–371.

    Thanks Mahgraye
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4031 - September 12, 2018, 11:28 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 04:00 PM
    I recently engaged Lumbard on Twitter and some other people as well. Marijn van Putten even wrote something of his own based on my comment about C14. Here is the thread: https://twitter.com/MemesSemitic/status/1039160183816179713?s=19

    Feedback would be appreciated. See one of the threads in the thread.

    See also:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1039771306940682243

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1039766206859960322

    https://mobile.twitter.com/therealsidky/status/1039839155826708480
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4032 - September 12, 2018, 11:38 PM
    No problem, Zeca. Thanks for the additional thread. They are all connected.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4033 - September 12, 2018, 11:45 PM
    Very interesting talk by Imbert:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nirLBQKCGYo

    Does anyone know the inscription he discusses? To when are they dated?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4034 - September 12, 2018, 11:58 PM
    This is especially for my dear, Altara ha ha:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6bnTd2NeE4
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4035 - September 13, 2018, 02:51 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 09:53 PM
    Al-Jallad thinks that the Quran could not have been written in Arabia Patrea. Per al-Jallad, even in the sixth century, the Quran's dialect and orthography do not match the Arabic inscriptions of the southern Levant.

    His colleague, Marijn van Putten, agrees and goes on to say that the linguistic facts of pre-Islamic Syro-Palestine are irreconcilable with Quranic Arabic.

    For van Putten, the loss of the glottal stop (hamza) is another indication that the Quran is not from Syro-Palestine, since such a feature is accosiated with Western Arabia and not Syro-Palestine, since the latter had retained it. One must assume - according to van Putten - an elaborate conspiracy by the Arab grammarians to connect the loss of the hamza with the Hijaz and not Petra if one wants to locate the Quran somewhere in Syro-Palestine.

    As for sources, please consult: Robert M. Kerr, “Aramaisms in the Qurʾān and their Significance,” in Christmas in the Koran: Luxenberg, Syriac, and the Near Eastern Judeo-Christian Background of Islam, ed. Ibn Warraq (USA: Prometheus Books, 2014), pp. 145–234; Guillaume Dye, “Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in the Qurʾānic Arabic,” in Arabic in Context: Celebrating 400 Years of Arabic at Leiden University, ed. Ahmad Al-Jallad (Leiden: Brill, 2017), pp. 337–371.


    Dearest Mahgaraye, where are these opinions published?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4036 - September 13, 2018, 06:47 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 11:58 PM
    This is especially for my dear, Altara ha ha:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6bnTd2NeE4


    Dear Mahgraye, good for you to have some extracts in Arabic of "Jésus et l'islam"!
    Hahaha!!! They may say what they want  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4037 - September 13, 2018, 07:26 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 11:45 PM
    Very interesting talk by Imbert:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nirLBQKCGYo

    Does anyone know the inscription he discusses? To when are they dated?


    Message him in  his academia page.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4038 - September 13, 2018, 09:02 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 12, 2018, 11:38 PM
    Thanks for the additional thread. They are all connected.

    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1039858194770747392
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4039 - September 13, 2018, 09:46 AM
    Quote from: zeca on September 13, 2018, 09:02 AM
    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1039858194770747392

    Quote
    Not denying weaknesses in my arguments (& things I've written I'd like back!) but this is a caricature - both the "The Q and Its Biblical Subtext" and now "The Q and the Bible" argue simply that it is fruitful to read the Qur'an alongside Biblical literature.


    there is indeed serious problem with those who are in to "Academics of origins of these faith books/literature " .. they must read Quran  and bible at least once.,  and i bet 90% of them did not read Quran in its entirety ...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4040 - September 13, 2018, 11:16 AM
    Difference between language of the Quran and Arabia Petraea:

    Do we have a complete list now of what the difference is according to Leiden? Maybe someone can list it again and explain each point so the non arabic speakers can follow?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4041 - September 13, 2018, 12:18 PM
    Zeca,

    Concerning language used by Arab traders:

    You linked this very interesting article: http://www.academia.edu/6589017/Mediterranean_World_and_Socotra._1._Greek_Inscriptions_at_%E1%B8%A4oq._2._Greeks_on_Soqo%E1%B9%ADra._Commercial_Contacts_and_Early_Christian_Missions

    1/ I don't think it proves that Greek was the language of commerce, I think it rather proves that there were also Greek traders active on Socotra, side by side of Arabs and Indians. But indeed no Arab graffiti found...

    2/ Palmyrene tablets were found! Does anyone know if there is any link btw Nabateans and Palmyra? seems to me they operated in the same Area. But language was apparently a Western Aramaic language, so the Palmyrenes were not Arabs?

    3/ Article shows the intensive multicultural junction which existed at the mouth of the Red Sea. Proves that their was a "direct ferry" to Indian Gujarat, where the early Bawada mosque (facing Petra/Jerusalem) is located. Also contacts with Aqsum. There is the Sahaba mosque also facing Petra/Jerusalem. Is this a coincidence or is there a link with the early 6-7 C Arab trade going on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4042 - September 13, 2018, 12:35 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 13, 2018, 12:18 PM
    I think it rather proves that there were also Greek traders active on Socotra, side by side of Arabs and Indians. But indeed no Arab graffiti found...

    What do you mean by ‘Arab’ in this context? Speakers of South Arabian languages would certainly have been present on Socotra given its position (and Socotra’s own language is South Arabian). It’s quite plausible that Arabic speakers would have turned up there as well but is there actually any evidence for it?

    Edit: another link on Red Sea trade in this period: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LhaWBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT19&lpg=PT19&dq=port+of+muza&source=bl&ots=YDA9Y5TeZ4&sig=PA_sEqxaUlKZ81RtWTa6DqN_wjY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSkrKng7jdAhWUOcAKHbTdDXc4ChDoATACegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=port%20of%20muza&f=false It seems the Periplus refers to ‘Arabs’ in the Yemeni port of Muza with links to Socotra. Here I think ‘Arab’ should be understood as being used to refer to inhabitants of Arabia rather than speakers of Arabic.

    Edit2: That link is for a book based on this dissertation: http://www.academia.edu/2287581/The_Red_Sea_during_the_Long_Late_Antiquity_AD_500-1000 There may be more information in there somewhere.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4043 - September 13, 2018, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 13, 2018, 12:35 PM
    What do you mean by ‘Arab’ in this context? ...................

    That is indeed serious problem in investigating the folks that were responsible for Quran  and early Islam., I have no idea of of how to define a person living these areas all the way  to 7th century ............ 


    Quote
    That is supposed to be Nabataean trade routes in Pre-Islamic Arabia


    Question is.,    "WERE ALL THE PEOPLE LIVING IN ARABIAN PENINSULA OF THAT TIME IN THAT MAP ....  should we call them as Arabs??

    Quote
    List of Caliphs
     Rashidun Caliphs (632-661)


    Abu Bakr – 632 – 634
    Umar ibn al-Khattab – 634 – 644
    Uthman ibn Affan – 644 – 656
    Ali ibn Abi Talib – 656 – 661
    Hasan ibn Ali – 661 (NOTE: Though he was caliph, most historians ignore his caliphate as it was shortlived.)

    Umayyads Caliphs (661-750/1031)

    Caliphs of Damascus (661-750)
    Muawiyah I – 661 – 680
    Yazid I – 680 – 683
    Muawiyah II – 683 – 684
    Marwan I – 684 – 685
    Abd al-Malik – 685 – 705
    Al-Walid I – 705 – 715
    Sulayman – 715 – 717
    Umar II – 717 – 720
    Yazid II – 720 – 724
    Hisham – 724 – 743
    Al-Walid II – 743 – 744
    Yazid III – 744
    Ibrahim – 744
    Marwan II – 744 – 750

    Emirs of Córdoba (756-929)

     

    Abd ar-Rahman I – 756 – 788
    Hisham I – 788 – 796
    al-Hakam I – 796 – 822
    Abd ar-Rahman II – 822 – 852
    Muhammad I – 852 – 886
    al-Mundhir – 886 – 888
    Abdallah ibn Muhammad – 888 – 912
    Abd-ar-Rahman III – 912 – 929 (Declared himself Caliph)

    Caliphs of Córdoba (929-1031)


    Abd-ar-Rahman III – 929 – 961
    Al-Hakam II – 961 – 976
    Hisham II al-Hakam – 976 – 1009
    Muhammad II – 1009
    Sulayman ibn al-Hakam – 1009 – 1010
    Hisham II al-Hakam, restored – 1010 – 1013
    Sulayman ibn al-Hakam, restored – 1013 – 1016
    Abd ar-Rahman IV – 1021 – 1022
    Abd ar-Rahman V – 1022 – 1023
    Muhammad III – 1023 – 1024
    Hisham III – 1027 – 1031

    Abbasid Caliphs (750-1258/1517)

    Caliphs of Baghdad (750-1258)

    As-Saffah – 750 – 754
    Al-Mansur – 754 – 775
    Al-Mahdi – 775 – 785
    Al-Hadi – 785 – 786
    Harun al-Rashid – 786 – 809
    Al-Amin – 809 – 813
    Al-Ma’mun – 813 – 833
    Al-Mu’tasim – 833 – 842
    Al-Wathiq – 842 – 847
    Al-Mutawakkil – 847 – 861
    Al-Muntasir – 861 – 862
    Al-Musta’in – 862 – 866
    Al-Mu’tazz – 866 – 869
    Al-Muhtadi – 869 – 870
    Al-Mu’tamid – 870 – 892
    Al-Mu’tadid – 892 – 902
    Al-Muktafi – 902 – 908
    Al-Muqtadir – 908 – 932
    Al-Qahir – 932 – 934
    Ar-Radi – 934 – 940
    Al-Muttaqi – 940 – 944
    Al-Mustakfi – 944 – 946
    Al-Muti – 946 – 974
    At-Ta’i – 974 – 991
    Al-Qadir – 991 – 1031
    Al-Qa’im – 1031 – 1075
    Al-Muqtadi – 1075 – 1094
    Al-Mustazhir – 1094 – 1118
    Al-Mustarshid – 1118 – 1135
    Ar-Rashid – 1135 – 1136
    Al-Muqtafi – 1136 – 1160
    Al-Mustanjid – 1160 – 1170
    Al-Mustadi – 1170 – 1180
    An-Nasir – 1180 – 1225
    Az-Zahir – 1225 – 1226
    Al-Mustansir – 1226 – 1242
    Al-Musta’sim – 1242 – 1258 (last Abbasid Caliph at Baghdad)

    (During the latter period of Abbasid rule, Muslim rulers began using other titles, such as Sultan).

    Caliphs of Cairo (1261-1517)
    Al-Mustansir II – 1261 – 1262
    Al-Hakim I – 1262 – 1302
    Al-Mustakfi I – 1302 – 1340
    Al-Hakim II – 1341 – 1352
    Al-Mu’tadid I – 1352 – 1362
    Al-Mutawakkil I – 1362 – 1383
    Al-Wathiq II – 1383 – 1386
    Al-Mu’tasim – 1386 – 1389
    Al-Mutawakkil I (restored) – 1389 – 1406
    Al-Musta’in – 1406 – 1414
    Al-Mu’tadid II – 1414 – 1441
    Al-Mustakfi II – 1441 – 1451
    Al-Qa’im – 1451 – 1455
    Al-Mustanjid – 1455 – 1479
    Al-Mutawakkil II – 1479 – 1497
    Al-Mustamsik – 1497 – 1508
    Al-Mutawakkil III – 1508 – 1517

    Other Caliphates (910-1269)

    Fatimid Caliphs (910-1171)

    Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah – 910 – 934
    Muhammad al-Qa’im Bi-Amrillah – 934 – 946
    Ismail al-Mansur – 946 – 953
    Al-Muizz Lideenillah – 953 – 975
    Abu Mansoor Nizar al-Aziz Billah – 975 – 996
    Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah – 996 – 1021
    Ali az-Zahir – 1021 – 1036
    Ma’ad al-Mustansir Billah – 1036 – 1094
    Al-Musta’li – 1094 – 1101
    Al-Amir – 1101 – 1130
    al-Hafiz – 1130 – 1149
    al-Zafir – 1149 – 1154
    Al-Faiz – 1154 – 1160
    Al-Azid – 1160 – 1171

    Almohad Caliphs (1145-1269)

    Abd al-Mu’min – 1145 – 1163
    Abu Yaqub Yusuf I – 1163 – 1184
    Yaqub al-Mansur – 1184 – 1199
    Muhammad an-Nasir – 1199 – 1213
    Abu Ya’qub Yusuf II – 1213 – 1224
    Abd al-Wahid I – 1224
    Abdallah al-Adil 1224-1227
    Yahya – 1227 – 1235
    Idris I – 1227 – 1232
    Abdul-Wahid II – 1232 – 1242
    Ali – 1242 – 1248
    Umar – 1248 – 1266
    Idris II – 1266 – 1269

    Ottoman Caliphs (1451-1924)
    Mehmed (Muhammed) II – 1451 – 1481
    Bayezid II – 1481 – 1512
    Selim I – 1512 – 1520
    Suleiman the Magnificent – 1520 – 1566
    Selim II – 1566 – 1574
    Murad III – 1574 – 1595
    Mehmed (Muhammed) III – 1595 – 1603
    Ahmed I – 1603 – 1617
    Mustafa I – 1617 – 1618
    Osman II – 1618 – 1622
    Mustafa I, restored – 1622 – 1623
    Murad IV – 1623 – 1640
    Ibrahim I – 1640 – 1648
    Mehmed (Muhammed) IV – 1648 – 1687
    Suleiman II – 1687 – 1691
    Ahmed II – 1691 – 1695
    Mustafa II – 1695 – 1703
    Ahmed III – 1703 – 1730
    Mahmud I – 1730 – 1754
    Osman III – 1754 – 1757
    Mustafa III – 1757 – 1774
    Abdul Hamid I – 1774 – 1789
    Selim III – 1789 – 1807
    Mustafa IV – 1807 – 1808
    Mahmud II – 1808 – 1839
    Abdülmecid I – 1839 – 1861
    Abdülaziz – 1861 – 1876
    Murad V – 1876
    Abdul Hamid II – 1876 – 1909
    Mehmed (Muhammed) V – 1909 – 1918
    Mehmed (Muhammed) VI – 1918 – 1922
    Abdülmecid II – 1922 – 1924


    with best
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4044 - September 13, 2018, 01:14 PM
    Zeca,

    Quote
    What do you mean by ‘Arab’ in this context? Speakers of South Arabian languages would certainly have been present on Socotra given its position (and Socotra’s own language is South Arabian). It’s quite plausible that Arabic speakers would have turned up there as well but is there actually any evidence for it?


    I'm relying on the article here. The author examined all these Greek sources mentioning the presence of Arabs as well as other communities. I dont have the impression the  Arab presence was limited to the indigenous ones.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4045 - September 13, 2018, 02:34 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 13, 2018, 01:14 PM
    Zeca,

    I'm relying on the article here.
    ............the presence of Arabs .....
    .............  Arab presence ..................


    one so the most serious problem with the "so-called Muslim as well as Non-Muslim scholars of Islam"  is  they seem not to realize is ..........." THE CHANGE OF NAMES OF FOLKS THAT MOVED IN TO ISLAM ((LOCAL ARAB OR NON-ARABS OF ARABIA"))... on top of that .. these story tellers also confuse the readers with  names .. and it is going on for a long time .. I guess since beginning of that Caliphate Islam
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4046 - September 13, 2018, 03:37 PM
    Quote
    Dearest Mahgaraye, where are these opinions published?


    My summary was based on what they wrote on Facebook. If you take a look at Marijn van Putten's academia page, you will find an article on the hamza. Al-Jallad also has an article on the Yazid inscription on his academia page.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4047 - September 13, 2018, 03:56 PM
    Mahgraye,

    I think there are 3 points I dont really understand

    1/ hamza or not. Can you explain?
    2/ bar or bin (weak argument imo)
    3/ wawation and nunation: dont understand

    Can you enlighten?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4048 - September 13, 2018, 11:30 PM
    Quote
    1/ hamza or not. Can you explain?


    Quranic Arabic - as evidenced by the earliest manuscripts - did not have the hamza. In Syro-Palestine, however, the Arabic script had retained the hamza. How come the Quran was written Syro-Palestine if the former has lost the hamza whilst the scrip of the latter had still retained it? The only geographical region were it is said that the hamza was completely dropped is the Hijaz in Western Arabia. The grammarians agree on this. Arguing for a norther provenance would entail a massive conspiracy (at least according to Marijn van Putten) by the grammarians to associate the loss of the hamza with the Hijaz in Western Arabia and not somewhere in Syro-Palestine.

    Quote
    2/ bar or bin (weak argument imo)


    Here I am not exactly sure what you mean. I did not bring up the issue of bar or bin. Anyways. Bar was the standard reading as evidence by several inscriptions but bin is still very archaic, as it is attested in Safaitic and in a region not far from Namara were Marʾ al-Qays is located.

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    3/ wawation and nunation: dont understand

    I do not understand either, ha ha. Not sure what you are referring to.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4049 - September 14, 2018, 06:29 AM
    Thanks Maggraye for helping me out.

    Hamza: isnt it possible that the hamza was just not written in Quranic arabic? It was there in reading but but not in writing? Just as so many other letters were not specified? Do we have pre Islamic or early islamic Syro-Palestine arabic texts expressing the Hamza?
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