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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3150 - August 14, 2018, 08:41 PM
    By my reading, Mundi is referring to this:

    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks as Lords apart from God and Christ the Son of Mary.


    I provided both the traditional and the new reading in my above comment.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3151 - August 14, 2018, 08:57 PM
    Matteo's reading according to Mundi :

    Quote
    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks and Christ the Son of Mary as Lords apart from God.


    Matteo's reading according to Mahgraye:

    Quote
    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks as Lords apart from God and Christ the Son of Mary.


    Guys...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3152 - August 14, 2018, 09:04 PM
    Where did Mundi get that from? His reading is the standard one. Here is Matteo's reading:

    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks as Lords apart from God and Christ the Son of Mary.


    End of story. Right or wrong, this is how Matteo read the verse.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3153 - August 14, 2018, 09:27 PM
    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks as Lords apart from God and Christ the Son of Mary.


    It is the Arabic text. So, dear Mahgraye, here you see that the Quran affirms the divinity of Jesus, right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3154 - August 14, 2018, 09:41 PM
    Matteo's reading, which you cite, affirms the divinity of Jesus, assuming he is right, that is. That is at least how he saw it. He argued that nowhere in the Quran is the divinity of Jesus explicitly rejected.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3155 - August 14, 2018, 09:51 PM
     So, dear Mahgraye, here you see that the Quran affirms the divinity of Jesus, yes or no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3156 - August 14, 2018, 09:52 PM
    I think so, yeah, but I am not 100 % sure.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3157 - August 14, 2018, 09:57 PM
    Wait! This verse is preceded by (9:30):

    Quote
    The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?


    How does one explain this, then? The preceding verse clearly rejects Jesus being the Son of God, or divine. That being said, how can the subsequent verse (9:31), assuming Matteo's reading is correct, affirm the divinity of Jesus?

    Every time one thinks one has solved something in the Quran, another thing pops up.   
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3158 - August 14, 2018, 10:29 PM
    Yes.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3159 - August 14, 2018, 10:31 PM
    So you agree.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3160 - August 14, 2018, 10:33 PM
    Do you think there is a way to argue that the Quran is a Trinitarian work?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3161 - August 14, 2018, 11:07 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 10:31 PM
    So you agree.


    I agree on that :
    Quote
    Every time one thinks one has solved something in the Quran, another thing pops up. 

     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3162 - August 14, 2018, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 10:33 PM
    Do you think there is a way to argue that the Quran is a Trinitarian work?

    Or Quran could be Trinitarian work added UNITARIAN WORK with whole lot of authors

    well you already gave an answer to your own question

    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 09:57 PM
    Wait! This verse is preceded .................

    Every time one thinks one has solved something in the Quran, another thing pops up.    

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3163 - August 14, 2018, 11:15 PM
    I am dying to read Luxenberg's take on Q 4:157; 3:55; 5:117; 19:33; 72:19.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3164 - August 14, 2018, 11:16 PM
    Quote
    Or Quran could be Trinitarian work added UNITARIAN WORK with whole lot of authors


    It is interesting to note that at a certain time of their studies, all people who search about the Quran ends (more or less) in the theory of Lüling of a specific text that has been changed at one moment  (whereas we have no material attestation of it...)  to give what he is today.
    Dye in fact is in the same situation. The world is divided in 2 categories : the Lüling camp, and the Cuypers camp. Diachrony or synchrony.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3165 - August 14, 2018, 11:25 PM
    Interesting observation. Lüling, however, proposed a Jewish-Christians influence instead of a Orthodox Trinitarian one. But your observation is true (in part, at least). See, for instance, the works of such scholars as Sinai (yes, even him), Dye, Luxenberg, Segovia, Kropp, Younes, Gallez, Azzi, Moussali, Reynolds, and the list goes on. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3166 - August 14, 2018, 11:30 PM
    Quote
    The world is divided in 2 categories: the Lüling camp, and the Cuypers camp. Diachrony or synchrony.


    Please explain a bit more. What is diachrony and synschrony, respectively, and what are the views of Cuypers?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3167 - August 14, 2018, 11:34 PM
    Quote
    What is diachrony and synschrony, respectively, and what are the views of Cuypers?


    1/ diachrony: A text which evolve in different times and people
    2/Cuypers : synchrony: A text which is the product of the same time and the same people.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3168 - August 15, 2018, 05:36 AM
    yes Maggraye, and what makes most sense in the Arabic sentence?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3169 - August 15, 2018, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 11:15 PM
    I am dying to read Luxenberg's take on Q 4:157; 3:55; 5:117; 19:33; 72:19.

    Hmm Mahgraye  throws some name and some verses ...

    Luxenberg............. Christoph  Luxenberg...

    Hi   Mahgraye.,    Who is that guy?? Who actually is Luxenberg?    do you know who he is?? .. anyways so what is so special about those  Q  3:55; 4:157;  5:117; 19:33; 72:19.   verses??

    well the  least I could do is  put them on board and read them..

    Quote
    3: 55   And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

    4:157   And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

    5: 117   I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

    19: 33   And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

    72:19   And that when the servant of Allah stood up calling upon Him, they wellnigh crowded him (to death).

    well that is what they say..  but what do they mean .. I don't know ..alllah knows the best.....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3170 - August 15, 2018, 09:30 PM
    Altara - What is the etymology of the Quran? Is it borrowed form qeryana? Many people reject this and challenge me to prove the borrowing. Any sources that show that Quran is from qeryana.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3171 - August 15, 2018, 10:23 PM
    It's impossible to "prove".  To prove it you need to be H.G Wells. You understand it by logic. "Queryana" was present before "Quran".  All of this comes from that :  קָרַן
    Try Ex 34, 29-35 in Hebrew and reflects.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3172 - August 15, 2018, 10:28 PM
    Quote
    All of this comes from that: קָרַן. Try Ex 34, 29-35 in Hebrew and reflects.


    Not sure I got this part.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3173 - August 15, 2018, 10:40 PM
    It seems clear.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3174 - August 16, 2018, 12:57 AM
    What do you think of Marijn's take on this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3175 - August 16, 2018, 07:45 AM
    ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3176 - August 16, 2018, 12:48 PM
    I am assuming that you guys are Academics exploring origins of Islam  in some University in France..   And I say those who are exploring Mahgraye's questions are doing the usual mistake.   And that is picking up verses and words from Quran here and there from different surahs and different verses and putting them together and asking  some questions like these .,
    Quote
    1).  What is the etymology of the Quran? Is it borrowed form qeryana?

    2). what did Luxenberg's say  on Q 4:157; 3:55; 5:117; 19:33; 72:19.??  did they come from bible??  

    3). What do you think of Marijn's take on this Quran borrowed form qeryana ?

     It is unfortunate Academics exploring Quran are doing same mistake as that of mullahs & Imams  preaching selective verses from Quran in Mosques. I don't think that is the right approach ., One must explore origins of Quran in its totality ..............all 114 chapters and all 6200 verses or so .....

    then you will come to the right conclusions  on the origins of Quran....
     
    with best
    yeezevee
     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3177 - August 16, 2018, 01:32 PM
    Dear yeezevee,
    Quote
    And that is picking up verses and words from Quran here and there from different surahs and different verses and putting them together and asking  some questions like these .,
    Quote
    1).  What is the etymology of the Quran? Is it borrowed form qeryana?


    I've given a response. Mahgraye should exanimate it.
    Quote
    what did Luxenberg's say  on Q 4:157; 3:55; 5:117; 19:33; 72:19.??  did they come from bible??  


    Mahgraye wanted to read Luxenberg about these verses. I'm not sure that he has written on them.

    Quote
    What do you think of Marijn's take on this Quran borrowed form qeryana ?


    Again, I'm not sure that he has written  about this specific topic.


     
    Quote
    It is unfortunate Academics exploring Quran are doing same mistake as that of mullahs & Imams  preaching selective verses from Quran in Mosques.I don't think that is the right approach ., One must explore origins of Quran in its totality ..............all 114 chapters and all 6200 verses or so then you will come to the right conclusions  on the origins of Quran....

     
    They do both ways.

    One interesting article of Reynolds  (in French).

    http://www.academia.edu/37017528/_Une_exhortation_pour_les_pieux_La_nature_par%C3%A9n%C3%A9tique_du_Coran_Revue_th%C3%A9ologique_du_Louvain_49_2018_182-200




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3178 - August 16, 2018, 07:23 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 16, 2018, 01:32 PM
    Dear yeezevee,
    I've given a response. Mahgraye should exanimate it.
    Mahgraye wanted to read Luxenberg about these verses. I'm not sure that he has written on them.

    Again, I'm not sure that he has written  about this specific topic.
      
    They do both ways.

    One interesting article of Reynolds  (in French).

    http://www.academia.edu/37017528/_Une_exhortation_pour_les_pieux_La_nature_par%C3%A9n%C3%A9tique_du_Coran_Revue_th%C3%A9ologique_du_Louvain_49_2018_182-200


    Hi Altara .. It was a general observation I made on Academic Quran explorers .. didn't mean to put you and  Mahgraye on the spot..

    anyways just curious did you and Mahgraye read that book of  Christoph Luxenberg(pseudonym )?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3179 - August 16, 2018, 08:00 PM
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