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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3060 - August 11, 2018, 08:24 AM
    Quote from: zeca on August 10, 2018, 11:26 PM
    Ahmad Al-Jallad - The Arabic of Petra

    https://www.academia.edu/37215697/Al_Jallad.2018._The_Arabic_of_Petra

    zeca  .. boy ..my goodness you really get around different fields that explore various subjects    related to origin of faiths and faith books

    that is a good paper.,   Interesting observation of it is.   I casually checked when Arabic language replaced all other languages of middle east  that were prominent before the birth of Islam around Arabian peninsula And I was under the impression Latin,   Greek,  Aramaic,  Hebrew, and Phoenician were  major languages   that were present before Islam but uncle and Aunt wiki at these links says

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphate



    Quote
    The Rashidun Caliphate (Arabic: اَلْخِلَافَةُ ٱلرَّاشِدَةُ‎ al-Khilāfa-al-Rāshidah) (632–661) was the first of the four major caliphates established after the death of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad. It was ruled by the first four successive caliphs (successors) of Muhammad after his death in 632 CE (AH 11). These caliphs are collectively known in Sunni Islam as the Rashidun, or "Rightly Guided" caliphs (اَلْخُلَفَاءُ ٱلرَّاشِدُونَ al-Khulafā’ur-Rāshidūn). This term is not used in Shia Islam as Shia Muslims do not consider the rule of the first three caliphs as legitimate


    THOSE RASCALS REPLACED EVERY WORD OF ALL OTHER LANGUAGES WITH THEIR ARABIC...  and I strongly doubt that and even their presence during the early development of  Islam..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3061 - August 11, 2018, 11:54 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1028330912285683714
    Quote
    Rainy weekend thread: I wanted to write a thread to connect to the fierce debate on Twitter regarding Arab identity, the Arabian Peninsula, and its relationship to the languages we call Arabic today. This is twitter, so it will naturally be bit superficial but I include a biblio.


    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1028330948805488648
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3062 - August 12, 2018, 01:09 PM
    Quote
    The first attestation of the name of the Arabic language in the Arabic language occurs in the Qur’an, where it is referred to as lisān ʿarabiyy. And the language of the Qur’an is in fact a form of Arabic closely related to north; the text is written in late Nabataean script.


    There is no "late  Nabataean script"... In that case, Greek is "late Phoenician script"...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3063 - August 12, 2018, 03:08 PM
    well let me listen to this tube ..some one sent it to me


    Gary Wills, "What the Qur'an Meant: And Why It Matters"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulK5re6b52g

    Garry Wills and the Q'uran
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6NWfVWxqSM

    Quote
    Garry Wills (born May 22, 1934) is an American author, journalist, and historian, specializing in American history, politics, and religion, especially the history of the Catholic Church. He won a Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction in 1993.

    Wills has written nearly forty books and, since 1973, has been a frequent reviewer for The New York Review of Books.[1] He became a faculty member of the history department at Northwestern University in 1980, where he is currently an Emeritus Professor of History.


    that is what wiki says about him
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3064 - August 13, 2018, 07:33 AM
    Quote
    There is no "late  Nabataean script"... In that case, Greek is "late Phoenician script".


    So Altara, what would you call this late Nabataean script then?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3065 - August 13, 2018, 07:46 AM
    Thanks for the videos of G. Wills, Yeez.

    Where in the Quran do we find the "muslim creed" (video around 4:00) G. Wills reads? Is that "the official" creed?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3066 - August 13, 2018, 08:05 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 13, 2018, 07:33 AM
    So Altara, what would you call this late Nabataean script then?


    North Arabic script : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3067 - August 13, 2018, 08:14 AM
    Altara,

    Yes, I see what you mean now.
    Al-Jallad seems to more and more connect the Quran with North Arabia. He seems to be shifting his position from a firm believer of the Hijaz-origin of the Quran to the North... Maybe I misread his thread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3068 - August 13, 2018, 09:15 AM
    Yes. Because it is impossible now to support the "Hijaz" connection and he knows it perfectly well. There is nothing in the Hijaz, it is the absolute void.
    In doing so, he becomes a sort of Dan Gibson! (Hahaha!) because  he wants desperately escape to a non genuine Arabic influence in the Quranic script, his only way is to insist on the Nabateans.
    But it is clear that the changing of Nabatean script to Quranic script (which is now Arabic script) is under influence of Christianity therefore Syriac script as attested by this very interesting inscription (470) where you see a mix of Nabatean and Arabic and the CROSS (hahaha!) : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/hspalar1
    There is no Quranic script  (which is now Arabic script) without Syriac script it is very clear . And it seems to me hardly refutable.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3069 - August 13, 2018, 10:33 AM
    What is the Syriac element in this 470 inscription with cross Altara?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3070 - August 13, 2018, 10:50 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 13, 2018, 08:05 AM
    North Arabic script : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html

    Presumably the same script would have been used for writing in Arabic and Aramaic. Is there any evidence of when it stopped being used for writing Aramaic?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3071 - August 13, 2018, 11:40 AM
    Are there examples of Aramaic written in Arabic script?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3072 - August 13, 2018, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 13, 2018, 09:15 AM

    Quote
    ............There is no Quranic script  (which is now Arabic script) without Syriac script.   
     .......   Altara  ......


     Cheesy   That is very strong confirmatory statement dear Altara  .... sounds like revelation from Gabriel to Altara to the readers Cheesy

    well to that let me add

     .......... There is no Quranic script (which is now Arabic script) without  Syriac script  and  There is no Syriac script    without  Aramaic  script .......  lol..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3073 - August 13, 2018, 12:17 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 13, 2018, 10:33 AM
    What is the Syriac element in this 470 inscription with cross Altara?

    The cross.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3074 - August 13, 2018, 12:17 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2018, 10:50 AM
    Presumably the same script would have been used for writing in Arabic and Aramaic. Is there any evidence of when it stopped being used for writing Aramaic?


    Nope. https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html

    You have two different scripts : Syriac and Arabic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3075 - August 13, 2018, 12:27 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 13, 2018, 11:40 AM
    Are there examples of Aramaic written in Arabic script?


    The Nabateans used Aramaic  language in their Nabatean script. For the rest I'm not aware...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3076 - August 13, 2018, 12:30 PM
    Quote
    The Nabateans used Aramaic  language in their Nabatean script. For the rest I'm not aware...


    Wait, the Nabateans spoke Arabic I  presume?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3077 - August 13, 2018, 12:41 PM
    http://www.ancientscripts.com/nabataean.html

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3078 - August 13, 2018, 12:46 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 13, 2018, 12:30 PM
    Wait, the Nabateans spoke Arabic I  presume?


    Yes. But they heavily used Aramaic in their Nabatean script. Because Aramaic (Syriac in the East) is the lingua franca in Orient with Greek.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3079 - August 13, 2018, 01:43 PM
    Al-Jallad talks a bit about Nabatean Aramaic here: https://15minutehistory.org/2016/04/27/episode-82-what-writing-can-tell-us-about-the-arabs-before-islam/
    Quote
    So the Nabataeans are conquered by the Romans in 106 CE. Throughout this period they are writing primarily in Aramaic, even though they are speaking Arabic. After the fall of their kingdom, the Nabataean script and writing tradition, the use of Nabataean Aramaic, the particular kind of Aramaric survives in northern Arabia, and you start to see the intrusion of more and more Arabic. In 328 CE, an epitaph was produced for a king named Mal Qays or Imrou Qays, we can’t exactly determine the pronunciation, son of ‘Amrou who calls himself “Malek al arab kulla“—King of all the Arabs, and this is in the Nabataean script, but the language, which, except for the word for son—they use the aramaic bar—is Arabic, completely Arabic. So we see, at least at this point, the use of the Nabataean script to write Arabic language, and in a context of prestige. And, basically between the 3rd century CE and the 5th century CE, a great scholar of Nabataean epigraphy, Layla Nehmé identified this as a transitional period between the Nabataean Aramaic script and what is recognizably the Arabic script. And the language of this period is mostly Aramaic, although there are more and more Arabic intrusions. So this would be the beginning of the Arabic script as we know it. Now, why this script then spread and replaced the indigenous alphabet of Arabia that was used for over 1000 years is unclear.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3080 - August 13, 2018, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 13, 2018, 12:17 PM
    Nope. https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html

    You have two different scripts : Syriac and Arabic.

    Does this suggest that Syriac had displaced Nabatean Aramaic by this date?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3081 - August 13, 2018, 03:39 PM
    Also from Al-Jallad: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1012677849952735233
    Quote
    <Aramaic in Arabia> The oldest dated inscription in the Arabic script comes from Himā, on a route 100km north of Najrān. While its letter shapes reflect the complete transition from Nabataean to Arabic script, the language is Aramaic. Text:
    Mlk-w Thwbn b-yrḥ brk shtt 364 =470AD

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3082 - August 13, 2018, 04:36 PM
    How different is this Aramaic from Arabic? I know the linguists say it is "very different", but apparently most stems are the same...A sound shift here or there is not a "big difference". In fact, modern dialects of the same language show a lot of variation and different sound shifts sometimes just because there is a river btw 2 villages...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3083 - August 13, 2018, 05:06 PM


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3084 - August 13, 2018, 09:59 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2018, 01:43 PM
    Al-Jallad talks a bit about Nabatean Aramaic here: https://15minutehistory.org/2016/04/27/episode-82-what-writing-can-tell-us-about-the-arabs-before-islam/


    They use Imperial Aramaic in the Nabatean script. Not  "Nabatean Aramaic" which did not exist! He invents this things. There is no language "Nabatean Aramaic".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3085 - August 13, 2018, 10:08 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2018, 01:52 PM
    Does this suggest that Syriac had displaced Nabatean Aramaic by this date?


     Nabatean Aramaic did not exist. Jallad lies. It exists a language : Imperial Aramaic and a script : the Nabatean one. In which (the script)  the Nabatean wrote Aramaic. That's all.
    That they used Nabatean script  to write ALSO their language which is "Arabic" yes of course. And that after a certain time, when outsiders as merchants in the Roman Empire, they have abandoned Imperial Aramaic and wrote "exclusively" Arabic yes. But they kept some words and expressions in their Arabic from Aramaic provenance.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3086 - August 13, 2018, 10:35 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2018, 03:39 PM
    Also from Al-Jallad: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1012677849952735233
    <Aramaic in Arabia> The oldest dated inscription in the Arabic script comes from Himā, on a route 100km north of Najrān. While its letter shapes reflect the complete transition from Nabataean to Arabic script, the language is Aramaic. Text:
    Mlk-w Thwbn b-yrḥ brk shtt 364 =470AD



    As I already said, Jallad as a Muslim (and Arab) want a genuine Arabic origin to the Quranic script.  As he knows that the "Hijaz" is crushed in this respect, he (and others anglo saxon desperados ...) desperately need another candidate to be at the origin of the Quranic script. In this purpose he invents a genuine  "transition" coming from Kepler-22b from the Nabataean script to the Quranic script.
    I want to know where this transition comes from. He does not explain it. He just affirms the fact of a "transition". He's smart.  But that doesn't work with me.
    Whereas we can see that Christianity is heavily present in all the peninsula where there is living people : Yemen, East coast, Dumat al Jandal. The script and language of Christianity is the Syriac script and the Syriac language. I hold that the Quranic script is not a genuine Arabic work coming from the Nabatean script with a miraculous "transition" coming from Kepler-22b. It is influenced by the  Syriac script :
    https://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/syriac.htm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3087 - August 13, 2018, 11:44 PM
    This article treats Nabatean Aramaic as a dialect in its own right:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1179/003103211X13092562976054
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3088 - August 14, 2018, 02:15 AM
    Does the Quran affirm the second coming of Jesus? Sources would be appreciated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3089 - August 14, 2018, 06:32 AM
    Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2018, 11:44 PM
    This article treats Nabatean Aramaic as a dialect in its own right:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1179/003103211X13092562976054


    Reread me. We do not know if the Nabatean spoke Aramaic.We know that they were Arabic and that they wrote in their own script, the Nabatean script, in Aramaic. And we know that later they abandoned Aramaic language they wrote in their Nabatean script, to Arabic in their Nabatean script, their mother tongue since they are Arabs.
    Of course, writing their mother tongue in their Nabatean script, they used heavily Aramaic, it's logical. As Arabic have no written pattern, no orthography, etc., like Aramaic.
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