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Qur'anic studies today
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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2490 - July 22, 2018, 02:37 PM

    I am not sure that some of your arguments are valid. Saying for example that


    are not mentionned but kings is so the islamic narrative is wrong seems too drastic a conclusion. Those 2 words mean the same thing and you cannot expect people who were not scholars to provide all the details we would expect from a  nowaday scholar. ....................


    Hello Marc S.,   Just a correction there., there is a difference between   Caliphs and Kings .... THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE .. and there is a difference between Caliphate and Sulatanate

     A Islamic Caliph is the one who will have  both political and  religious authority  - His role with reference to religion is "To establish laws and rules that are revealed in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, but he will not have   any form of religious revelation of his  own".

    and i don't think I need to define who king is/was in different cultures...

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2491 - July 22, 2018, 03:46 PM

    On Morris' thread on the pre-islamic social order around Mecca:

    Morris' quote:

    Quote
    Everything I say in the thread above does rely on the Arabic historical tradition, which is late and highly fictionalised; but these specific accounts are less obviously warped than others, so I'm happy to use them provisionally.


    The most important part of the thread imo.

    All this research might well turn out to be the equivalent of a blog on Game of Thrones. It might all be fiction since we don't know if the beginnings of Islam originated around Mecca with the Qurash as lead actors. All we have are the "fictionalised late sources"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2492 - July 22, 2018, 04:25 PM

    Hi, everyone. At long last, I am finally back home and can contribute (hopefully) to this discussion. But I must say, I have no idea were to begin. Much have been said here and I am somewhat lost. Add my laziness and I am not sure if I am going to be able to respond to everything that was said. Would appreciate of some directions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2493 - July 22, 2018, 05:01 PM

    Hi Magraye,

    Why dont you start with commenting on my post?  Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2494 - July 22, 2018, 05:08 PM

    Dear Mundi,

    Am I correct in assuming you are referring to this particular post of yours?

    Quote
    All this research might well turn out to be the equivalent of a blog on Game of Thrones. It might all be fiction since we don't know if the beginnings of Islam originated around Mecca with the Quraysh as lead actors. All we have are the "fictionalized late sources".


    Assuming that is the case, I am not sure what to say. I would not go so far as to compare the Muslim sources with the fandom of Game of Thrones (who do you think will gain the Iron Throne, btw?). Based on my own reading, the later sources can be described in part as salvation history. This point is a truism, as even the most conservative scholars acknowledge it. On the other hand, I see value in them as well, and obviously not everything is fiction. We can date traditions, and also see if external sources corroborate (and they do) some of the information provided to us by these later sources. So, for me, the issue is not black and white. Since your post was a reaction to Morris, I must admit that I do not fully agree with latter on some issues. Especially when it comes to Quraysh, and that only the Arab sources makes mention of this tribe. I, for instance, believe that Quraysh did exists prior to Islam, independently of the Arab sources.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2495 - July 22, 2018, 05:21 PM

    On Morris' thread on the pre-islamic social order around Mecca:

    Morris' quote:

    The most important part of the thread imo.

    All this research might well turn out to be the equivalent of a blog on Game of Thrones. It might all be fiction since we don't know if the beginnings of Islam originated around Mecca with the Qurash as lead actors. All we have are the "fictionalised late sources"

    I agree that there’s a question mark over the whole enterprise. Sometimes as well an account may not be strictly historical but may still give an idea of a how a society worked.

    There was an addition to the thread which I found interesting. I edited my post to add the link but it’s maybe worth quoting in full: https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1020657800723169280
    Quote
    Fascinating, another riff on 'who really were the Quraysh? Though, with the reference to vineyards, he must know this all took place somewhere much further north than the Hijaz?

    Quote from: Morris
    It's hardly improbable that the Quraysh owned land at Ta'if. Amusingly, though, I do know a couple of cases where estates in the north were accidentally 'transported' by tradition to the Hijaz: 

    Ibn Mas'ud had an estate in Iraq that was later mistakenly assumed to have been in Medina, as shown by Lecker: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276885030_Wa-bi-Radhan_ma_bi-Radhan_The_landed_property_of_Abdallah_ibn_Masud

    Someone else had a property at Baysan in the Transjordan and there is a story where Muhammad is supposed to have been there, but later exegesis insisted that Muhammad never went that far north, so they invented another Baysan back in the Hijaz!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2496 - July 22, 2018, 05:29 PM

    On Morris' thread on the pre-islamic social order around Mecca:

    Morris' quote:

    The most important part of the thread imo.
    Quote
    Everything I say in the thread above does rely on the Arabic historical tradition, which is late and highly fictionalised; but these specific accounts are less obviously warped than others, so I'm happy to use them provisionally.

    .................. All we have are the "fictionalised late sources"

    dear mundi  a link of that  Ian   Morris quote from his twitter??  face book?? ass book? account would be useful ...

    I  casually searched  this https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris  and this http://www.iandavidmorris.com/   but didn't   see that Quote...

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2497 - July 22, 2018, 05:29 PM

    Magraye,

    "salvation history"

    I agree the sources should be viewed as such. And the salvation history can be discussed, dissected and commented on, and that would be quite interesting for a certain public.

    But as a historian, relying on the "highly fictionalized" narrative to reconstruct the socio economic relationship of these communities in a historical fashion is not really productive. I think that is rather something for the theology department ( I see a parallel with liberation theology, haha).

    Morris is honest enough to quote his reservations as a historian. And he said he was bored at the time he was writing it. But too many (historians) take these thought exercises too seriously. I do agree that theologians might have an interest in this.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2498 - July 22, 2018, 05:31 PM

    Very interesting point raised here by Zeca. There are also stories that Muhammad owned land in Gaza. Other reports suggest that he had relatives living close to Petra.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2499 - July 22, 2018, 05:34 PM

    Very interesting point raised here by Zeca. There are also stories that Muhammad owned land in Gaza. Other reports suggest that he had relatives living close to Petra.

    hello Mahgraye  how are you doing? WHICH MUHAMMAD??

    Such statements must come with links.. it would be nice to read original sources of such BLASPHEMOUS   utterances....

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2500 - July 22, 2018, 05:37 PM

    Hi, Yeezevee. I am doing fine and I hope you are doing fine as well.

    Muhammad as in the prophet Muhammad.

    Will try to get the references.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2501 - July 22, 2018, 05:37 PM

    Yeezevee,

    the link to Morris'quoted historicity disclaimer:
    https://twitter.com/search?q=Everything%20I%20say%20in%20the%20thread%20above%20does%20rely%20on%20the%20Arabic%20historical%20tradition%2C%20which%20is%20late%20and%20highly%20fictionalised%3B%20but%20these%20specific%20accounts%20are%20less%20obviously%20warped%20than%20others%2C%20so%20I%27m%20happy%20to%20use%20them%20provisionally.&src=typd
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2502 - July 22, 2018, 05:54 PM

    Hello Marc S.,   Just a correction there., there is a difference between   Caliphs and Kings .... THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE .. and there is a difference between Caliphate and Sulatanate

     A Islamic Caliph is the one who will have  both political and  religious authority  - His role with reference to religion is "To establish laws and rules that are revealed in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, but he will not have   any form of religious revelation of his  own".

    and i don't think I need to define who king is/was in different cultures...

    with best
    yeezevee


    You totally miss my point. I am not expecting to find those subtleties of language in those chronicles (this kind of things is for professional scholars) and therefore using kings instead of caliphs doesn't bother me and isn't for me a proof of the fictitious aspect of the islamic tradition (though I agree it is almost entirely fictitious). Let's not also forget that, in some instances, kings/emperors can have both political and religious authority.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2503 - July 22, 2018, 05:56 PM

    hello Mahgraye  how are you doing? WHICH MUHAMMAD??

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    Could you please develop on what you mean by which Muhammad ? Obviously, you seem to imply that there were different persons bearing that "title(name ? )" but I might be wrong in reading you. If not, can you please help and support your assumptions on these multiple Muhammads ?

    Thanks,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2504 - July 22, 2018, 08:01 PM

    I am not sure that some of your arguments are valid. Saying for example that caliphs are not mentioned but kings is so the islamic narrative is wrong seems too drastic a conclusion.

    I've given other arguments ; this one adds to the others.

    Those 2 words mean the same thing and you cannot expect people who were not scholars to provide all the details we would expect from a nowaday scholar. An example of this is Muawiya whom we know existed but non muslim sources don't really give details about who he was, his life and his ascend to power.


    1/Yeezz has given you the response.
    2/ We know (from non Muslim sources )that theses Arabs call themselves "Muhajirun" and they would not call a "caliph" "caliph"? .Why one and not another? Especially that "caliph" (like the other) is a Quranic word, it seems improbable. The response is that there was "Muhajirun", but not "caliph", as attested by the inscriptions of Muawiya where this word does not exists.[/quote]
    The tayma writing is an epigraph that was discovered next to Tayma in Saudi Arabia. It states "May God curse the one who murdered Uthman ibn affan and those who incited this merciless killing". As you can see, and the Zuhayr writing is the same,  it is not islamic in its content (no mention of the title of Uthman, no raḍiya Llāhʿan-hu  formula after his name)


    Of course, since he was not what said the 9th c. historiographers!


    Quote
    My bad on this one. I was refering to a scriptural document attributed to Thomas the presbiter who mention the invasion of Gaza by arab forces in 634 but the date of the document is 724.


    Ok.

    Quote
    By the way, I sometimes wonder if a confusion was not made in Sebeos writings but also with others between Umar the 2nd guided caliph and Amr ibn al As, meaning that Umar didn't exist and in fact only Amr did but, because of the islamic narrative, people who translate old chronicles read Umar where it refers to Amr because of the events described. I might be wrong here but it is in my head.


    Indeed, I think there is an issue there. I have remarked it and have no response

    Quote
    I sent you a message in your inbox. It would be nice if you could reply.


    I'll see that.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2505 - July 22, 2018, 08:21 PM




    Amusingly, though, I do know a couple of cases where estates in the north were accidentally 'transported' by tradition to the Hijaz:

    Ibn Mas'ud had an estate in Iraq that was later mistakenly assumed to have been in Medina, as shown by Lecker: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276885030_Wa-bi-Radhan_ma_bi-Radhan_The_landed_property_of_Abdallah_ibn_Masud

    Someone else had a property at Baysan in the Transjordan and there is a story where Muhammad is supposed to have been there, but later exegesis insisted that Muhammad never went that far north, so they invented another Baysan back in the Hijaz!



    There's no Mecca before Islam. There is no need to be "prophet" to write the Quran. There is no "prophet", no Mecca, no Zem Zem, no commerce in Yemen or in Syria... they have all the stuff which recount the transfer to the Hijaz of the estates of Ibn Masud before their eyes! But they continue to BELIEVE!
    Exceptional!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2506 - July 22, 2018, 08:50 PM

    Quote
    We do not have an exemplar which shows the modification of Hajjaj.


    We do: Mingana 1572a.

    Quote
    What you say is build only by the affirmations of the narrative.


    Nope. My argument is based on the manuscript evidence as well as literary evidence.

    Ironically, it is the narrative (i.e. the Arab sources) that mention ʿAbd al-Malik’s involvement with the Qurʾān.  

    Quote
    Utman has never existed as recounted by the narrative.


    Fine. Although I beleive that ʿUthmān existed and that he standardized the text of the Qurʾān.

    Quote
    Same situation as "Mecca"/Zem Zem/Abu Bakr/Kaba, etc.


    Irrelevant to the question.

    Quote
    I'm convinced of the early dating of the Quranic corpus but I have no scientific validation of that.


    There are a plethora of evidences for an early dating of the Quranic corpus. Some have been mentioned in our discussion, such as the manuscripts, and I could mention plenty more if you are interested. Several scholars have published on this very topic and the latest contribution is going to be by Marijn van Putten, who, based on the extant manuscripts, is going to demonstrate that the quranic text was closed to further additions already by the year 650, i.e. the mid-seventh century.

    Quote
    I think we have only ʿAbd al-Malik/Hajjaj and Sanaa palimpsest as witness.


    Does not the Arabic sources mention ʿAbd al-Malik’s involvement with the Qurʾān? How do you know that ʿAbd al-Malik had anything to do with the Qurʾān? Apart from Sanaa, we have most notably CPP, and a few others as well.

    Quote
    That there was an exemplar before ʿAbd al-Malik/Hajjaj, of course. But I doubt that we have it now and I do not think that it is related to what recount the narrative since we have no sources about the characters whose it recounts the story.


    We do. The Sanaa palimpsest and CPP. The latter has the same identical vulgate, completely standardized, as the Cairo edition.

    Quote
    Nope. We scientifically do not know where comes from the Sanaa palimpsest. We scientifically do not know what is a  "Companion" :  The only Arab chiefs we know who have existed  between 630 and 700 are Muawiya, Zubayr, and  Abd al-Malik. None Ummayad  or external sources in Ummayad place (Damascus)  attests the existence of a "Companion". All of this has no scientific validation ; as such they have to be set aside.


    All I am saying is that some of the variants found in the Sanaa palimpsest correspond with variants attributed the codices of Ibn Masʿūd and Ubayy. That is all. Shows that some details in the Arab sources are accurate. And there much more to be said in regards to that point.


    Quote
    See my first point.


    By looking at the manuscripts, we can see that changes after 690 CE were due improvement of the text through the addition of diacritics and vowelings. Has nothing to do with blind trust.

    Sorry for my somewhat dismissive responses. My intent was not disrespect but I am simply very tired at the moment, having traveled and all. I recommend that you read more about this particular topic, dear Altara. You are very knowledgeable, indeed, but it seems that you have not read enough about this. I say this as an friendly advice, and not as condescending remark. Best regards.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2507 - July 22, 2018, 10:10 PM

    Some new comments on Morris’s old thread on Crone’s ‘Slaves on Horses’ (which is worth rereading in its own right):

    https://mobile.twitter.com/gypsy_heart6/status/1021096130979991552

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1021116343901401089
    Quote from: Marijn van Putten
    I'm currently in the middle of deciding what to think of the poetry. But the linguistic features and some of its contents actually make it quite unlikely that it's not genuinely pre-Islamic -- Which is in fact pretty amazing.

    That being said, the -- often unstated -- assumption that the pre-Islamic poetry could give us any insight into the language of the Quran, or the linguistic context of the early-Islamic period is not clearly based on any evidence.

    There is an a priori assumption that the pre-Islamic poetry was important in the early Islamic Hijazi context. The fact that the poetry is only collected centuries later and is attributed whenever possible to Eastern Arabia seems to not exactly play well with those assumptions.

    The linguistic nature of the poetry and its relation to the language of the Quran and what this tells us about the importance of the poetry in the early Islamic context is something I hope to work on together with Peter Webb soon.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2508 - July 22, 2018, 10:27 PM

    Some new comments on Morris’s old thread on Crone’s ‘Slaves on Horses’ (which is worth rereading in its own right):

    https://mobile.twitter.com/gypsy_heart6/status/1021096130979991552

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1021116343901401089

    well he is certainly very active on tit bits of twitter and I like that Syed The gypsy_heart6

    Quote
    Quote
    Syed@gypsy_heart6
     
    I think Prophet’s marriage to first caliph’s daughter is such a significant event, & Aisha’s presence in traditions is so massive, that it would be hard to invent her age & not to be disputed by other direct traditions. Though there are tangential hadeeths that hint a higher age.


     @shahanSean Replying to @ProfessorGeorgy
    Not true. It's attested in a letter attributed to her nephew, 'Urwah ibn al-Zubayr, written in the 690s. It's one of the best attested data abt her life. Child marriage was quite common in the period.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/gypsy_heart6

    Quote


    great great  the last one is too good to miss..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2509 - July 22, 2018, 10:29 PM

    The guy in those YouTube videos is not Ian Morris
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2510 - July 22, 2018, 10:38 PM

    The guy in those YouTube videos is not Ian Morris

    you are right Mahgraye.. Damn there are so many historians with little true history
    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/

    Quote


    I am looking for hair...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2511 - July 22, 2018, 11:13 PM

    The guy in those YouTube videos is not Ian Morris

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/ian-morris-stole-my-gig/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2512 - July 22, 2018, 11:24 PM

    Thanks, Zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2513 - July 23, 2018, 08:24 AM

    Paul Neuenkirchen - review of Stephen Shoemaker, The Death of a Prophet. The End of Muhammad's Life and the Beginnings of Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/37046142/Stephen_Shoemaker_The_Death_of_a_Prophet._The_End_of_Muhammads_Life_and_the_Beginnings_of_Islam_Studia_Islamica_2016_Review_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2514 - July 23, 2018, 11:45 AM

    Could you please develop on what you mean by which Muhammad ?

     Hello Marc S... ..Yes.. I agree with you and Yes we should .. we must develop  new ways of looking in to the WORD "MUHAMMAD".,  

     As  for as person "Muhammad".. alleged Prophet of Islam is concerned .,

     After figuring out the "origins of the word Muhammad", We must  inquire why a person was named as Muhammad  and more importantly who gave that name to him?  where was he born? and what year?  and when did he die ? And those who wrote stories on Muhammad ,   where did folks get the information on that person  and how??

    Such questions are very basic to investigate origins of Islam dear Marc S.. Don't you agree with me?
    Quote
    Obviously, you seem to imply that there were different persons bearing that "title(name ? )" but I might be wrong in reading you.

     No..No you are NOT WRONG.,  you got that right from reading my posts

    Quote
    If not, can you please help and support your assumptions on these multiple Muhammads ?

    I will... I will ... and I am  doing that for a long time Marc S., I have limited time and I am NOT ISLAMIC SCHOLAR.. I mean by that.. my bread & butter does not come from writing article /books/teachings on Islam .. But it  comes from writing article /books/teaching in basic and applied sciences

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2515 - July 23, 2018, 12:19 PM

    You totally miss my point. I am not expecting to find those subtleties of language in those chronicles (this kind of things is for professional scholars) and therefore using kings instead of caliphs doesn't bother me and isn't for me a proof of the fictitious aspect of the islamic tradition (though I agree it is almost entirely fictitious).

    well I miss so many points Marc S .. missing your point is not big deal and  missing important points  is not new to me., Just curious,  did you read what that 7th-century Armenian bishop Sebeos  said on Muhammad and Caliphs after Muhammad .. The Alleged Prophet of Islam died??
    Quote

    Quote
    Let's not also forget that, in some instances, kings/emperors can have both political and religious authority.

    Examples from different faiths and cultures please.,  kings/emperors having   political and religious authority  is different from KING & PRIEST UNDER THE SAME SKIN

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2516 - July 23, 2018, 04:45 PM

    Paul Neuenkirchen - review of Stephen Shoemaker, The Death of a Prophet. The End of Muhammad's Life and the Beginnings of Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/37046142/Stephen_Shoemaker_The_Death_of_a_Prophet._The_End_of_Muhammads_Life_and_the_Beginnings_of_Islam_Studia_Islamica_2016_Review_


    A very interesting review indeed. Thanks Zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2517 - July 23, 2018, 05:08 PM

    We do: Mingana 1572a.


    Ok. Give articles about that.

    Quote
    Nope. My argument is based on the manuscript evidence as well as literary evidence.


    As I do not know to what assertion you say "nope..."


    Quote
    Ironically, it is the narrative (i.e. the Arab sources) that mention ʿAbd al-Malik’s involvement with the Qurʾān.  


     The Arab sources say that all until ʿAbd al-Malikare involved.

    Quote
    Fine. Although I beleive that ʿUthmān existed and that he standardized the text of the Qurʾān.


    I think he existed, but not as "Caliph" and coming from the Hijaz, as none source corroborate it...

    Quote
    Irrelevant to the question.


    As I do not know to what assertion you say (Irrelevant ) (lazy...)


    Quote
    Does not the Arabic sources mention ʿAbd al-Malik’s involvement with the Qurʾān? How do you know that ʿAbd al-Malik had anything to do with the Qurʾān? Apart from Sanaa, we have most notably CPP, and a few others as well.


    1/Yes via Hajjaj.b Yusuf, his lige to modifiy it (to modify what, it's not so clear...). That's all.

    Quote
    We do. The Sanaa palimpsest and CPP. The latter has the same identical vulgate, completely standardized, as the Cairo edition.


    CPP and Sanaa palimpsest are not the same codex (order of the sura, add  or lack of verse, etc)


    Quote
    All I am saying is that some of the variants found in the Sanaa palimpsest correspond with variants attributed the codices of Ibn Masʿūd and Ubayy.


    Some. So it is not the same codex. It looks like, it resembles. But not the same.

    Quote
    Shows that some details in the Arab sources are accurate.


    I never said the contrary!


    Quote
    By looking at the manuscripts, we can see that changes after 690 CE were due improvement of the text through the addition of diacritics and vowelings. Has nothing to do with blind trust.


    Where I said the contrary?

    Quote
    Sorry for my somewhat dismissive responses. My intent was not disrespect but I am simply very tired at the moment, having traveled and all. I recommend that you read more about this particular topic, dear Altara. You are very knowledgeable, indeed, but it seems that you have not read enough about this. I say this as an friendly advice, and not as condescending remark. Best regards.


    Best regards as well dear Mahgraye!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2518 - July 23, 2018, 08:04 PM

    well I miss so many points Marc S .. missing your point is not big deal and  missing important points  is not new to me., Just curious,  did you read what that 7th-century Armenian bishop Sebeos  said on Muhammad and Caliphs after Muhammad .. The Alleged Prophet of Islam??


    I did but I am not sure to see what you mean. Can you please clarify ?


    Examples from different faiths and cultures please.,  kings/emperors having   political and religious authority  is different from KING & PRIEST UNDER THE SAME SKIN



    The Byzantine empire is the very example of this. And I suspect, but cannot substantiate it enough, that the reason for building the Dome of Rock was because Abd Al Malik wanted to challenge that leadership both religiously and then politically. For me, this is where the caliph notion comes from.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2519 - July 23, 2018, 08:17 PM

    Hello Marc S... ..Yes.. I agree with you and Yes we should .. we must develop  new ways of looking in to the WORD "MUHAMMAD".,  

     As  for as person "Muhammad".. alleged Prophet of Islam is concerned .,

     After figuring out the "origins of the word Muhammad", We must  inquire why a person was named as Muhammad  and more importantly who gave that name to him?  where was he born? and what year?  and when did he die ? And those who wrote stories on Muhammad ,   where did folks get the information on that person  and how??

    Such questions are very basic to investigate origins of Islam dear Marc S.. Don't you agree with me? No..No you are NOT WRONG.,  you got that right from reading my posts
    I will... I will ... and I am  doing that for a long time Marc S., I have limited time and I am NOT ISLAMIC SCHOLAR.. I mean by that.. my bread & butter does not come from writing article /books/teachings on Islam .. But it  comes from writing article /books/teaching in basic and applied sciences


    Sorry I didn't mean to offend you but you are not the first one to come up with this theory about Muhammad being a title but , so far, I haven't seen anyone coming with proofs or facts about this assumption. So I thought that you had some items you could share with us that made you think like that.

    As to whqt was the name of Muhammad before islam, I guess you are aware that some people said that his name was Qatham .
    The only one I know who was able to use islamic litterature and link it with "true" history and give the name of Muhammad is AJ Deus in his book The Great Leap Fraud part II Islam. The coincidence he raises is surprising though I am not 100% convinced by his arguments.
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