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- Altara
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Reply #2160 - June 06, 2018, 08:47 PM

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Yes, he does. Holland has clearly not understood Al-Jallad's research nor the implications of it.

All what I can comprehend of the Jallad stuff is that he hopes finding inscriptions speaking of "Prophet Muhammad" alive and kicking.

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“We will find texts from the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad,” he said. “I am one-hundred-per-cent certain of that. It’s just a matter of time.”

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-new-history-of-arabia-written-in-stone

He won't. On the other hand, examples of where comes from Quranic Arabic script as we have it in earliest manuscripts (Arabe 328, etc) seems somewhat obvious.
The Zabad one : 512
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
The Harran one 568 (to me time of the redaction of the Quran) : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html.
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Reply #2161 - June 06, 2018, 09:01 PM

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He won't.

You don't know that, and there is nothing wrong with him trying, or thinking that scholars will finds inscription from the time of Muhammad.
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Reply #2162 - June 06, 2018, 11:07 PM

If they had existed they would have been found since ages now. There's nothing. Times to wake up and go out of the dream. The matter is far more complex.

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there is nothing wrong with him trying, or thinking that scholars will finds inscription from the time of Muhammad.

He is guided by his beliefs. Not by science, the need to comprehend.
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Reply #2163 - June 06, 2018, 11:29 PM

https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1004472111841333249
Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
Arabic is a late arrival in East Arabia, in my view, perhaps late antique. Another shadowy language called qatrayit is known from glosses in Syriac mss from the region, and Hasaitic is the only East Arabian language to appear in epigraphic record.

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What about in the north, around al-Hirah? Is there data on when Arabic spread there and on how its varieties relate to western varieties?

Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
"Arabs" have been in the region of Hirah since the mid-1st millennium bce, and their onomastics suggest they spoke an Arabic language as well. The interesting question is: why and when did the Nabataean writing tradition spread to the Euphrates?

I suspect nabataean spread from Dûmah, which was part of the Nab. Kingdom, sometime in the 1st or 2nd c. CE, but the political circumstances surrounding this are so far unclear.

Dumah: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumat_al-Jandal

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Reply #2164 - June 06, 2018, 11:29 PM

You are merely attacking his person. Why is guided by beliefs and not the evidence? Same could be said about you and member of Inarah.

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If they had existed they would have been found since ages now.

Now, that is an unscientific claim. Using the same reasoning, we would not have found first century Qurans and hadiths.
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Reply #2165 - June 07, 2018, 01:19 AM

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You are merely attacking his person.

Not at all. Reread me carefully. It is called a factual ascertainment.

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Now, that is an unscientific claim.

Probability is very meagre as there's no trace of "Mecca" before Islam. Forgeries (of course) are always possible.

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Using the same reasoning, we would not have found first century Qurans and hadiths.

The big difference is that nobody was "searching" first century Qurans. They were available in Fustat and elsewhere... The peninsula was examined before the Wahabbis establishment by Western expeditions. There was nothing. Expeditions exist since 15 (20?) years now with Saudi rule. Still nothing. In Qatar they have found churches with big crosses. Dumat with cross, Petra church with mosaics... Sanaa cathedral...These elements lead me to think that there is, in fact, nothing. This "nothing" is confirming the nothing of the 4,5,6,7, th c. sources about a "Mecca" city, a "Medina" city, a Kaba where all the tribes converge in a great pilgrimage (I let you continue the story...) in the Western peninsula. If I did not have those elements, I would not say what I say.
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Reply #2166 - June 07, 2018, 01:50 PM

let me rephrase Altara post as pointers
Quote from: Altara on June 07, 2018, 01:19 AM

1). In Qatar they have found churches with big crosses. Dumat with cross,

2). Petra church with mosaics... Sanaa cathedral...These elements lead me to think that there is, in fact, nothing.

3). This "nothing" is confirming the nothing of the 4,5,6,7, th c. sources about a "Mecca" city, a "Medina" city, a Kaba where all the tribes converge in a great pilgrimage (I let you continue the story...) in the Western peninsula. ....

So taking pointer 3 nothings of Arabia of Altara .. .. .. .... a "Mecca" city, a "Medina" city, a Kaba ...."

The question to answer is ..

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when in this time line of Arabia the present Mecca and Madina towns are established as pilgrim towns for world wide Muslims ??

that is an important question to answer..

anyways let me add bit info on that time line but walk backward in time..

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1703 Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (d.1792), Islamic theologian and founder of Wahhabism, was born in Arabia. He set out his ideas in “The Book of Unity" (1736). Wahhabism, a puritan branch of Sunni Islam, was founded by al-Wahhab in a poor part of Arabia called Najd. Saudi armies helped to spread Wahhabi Islamic reform. A Salafi, from the Arabic word Salaf (literally meaning predecessors or early generations), is an adherent of a contemporary movement in Sunni Islam that is sometimes called Salafism or Wahhabism. Salafis themselves insist that their beliefs are simply pure

1517 Jan 22, Turks conquered Cairo. Cairo and Mecca were captured by the Turks and Arabia came under Turkish rule.

1511 In Mecca, Arabia, there was an attempt to ban coffee.
   (Econ, 12/20/03, p.90)

1400s The Saud dynasty was founded near Riyadh. ??
   (WSJ, 11/13/01, p.A14)

1324-1325 Mansa Musa, king of Mali, made the 3,500 mile pilgrimage to Mecca. He traveled with a very large retinue that included 80 camels and 500 slaves. An Arab chronicler said he was surrounded by over 10,000 of his subjects.
   (ATC, p.119)(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R6)

1174 Nureddin, the ruler of Syria died. Saladin, the vizier of Egypt, married Nureddin’s widow and assumed control of both state. The Ayyubids under Saladin spent the next decade launching conquests throughout the region and by 1183, the territories under their control included Egypt, Syria, northern Mesopotamia, Hejaz, Yemen, and the North African coast up to the borders of modern-day Tunisia.
   (ON, 6/07, p.5)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_dynasty)

855 Ahmad ibn Hanbal (b.780), Muslim scholar, died in Iraq. He is considered the founder of the 4th school of Sunni Islam. The four schools of Sunni Islam include: a) The Hanafi school, named after Imam Abu Hanifa, predominates in the territories formerly under the Ottoman Empire and in Muslim India and Pakistan; it relies heavily on consensus and analogical reasoning in addition to the Quran and sunna. B) The Maliki school, named after Malik ibn Anas, is dominant in upper Egypt and West Africa; developed in Medina, it emphasizes use of hadith (sayings or acts) that were current in the Prophet's city. C) The school of Muhammad ibn Idris ash Shafii, prevailing in Indonesia, stresses reasoning by analogy. D) The fourth legal school is that of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, which is the school adhered to in Saudi Arabia.
   (http://countrystudies.us/saudi-arabia/26.htm)

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c1AD Nabatean masons carved tombs into solid rock in Madain Salah near Madinah.
   (NW, 11/26/01, p.SAS)

500-600 Arabs about this time brought back home from India the numerals we refer to as Arabic numbers.
   (SFEC, 1/23/00, Z1 p.2)
500-600 The Arabian city of Ubar, disappeared in the early 6th century. The event was later cited by Muhammad in the Quran. In 1992 a team of investigators announced the discovery of the long lost Arabian city of Ubar. George Hedges (1952-2009), a Hollywood litigator, and filmmaker Nicholas Clapp, participated in the find. Clapp later authored “The Road to Ubar: Finding the Atlantis of the Sands" (1999).
   (WSJ, 3/20/09, p.A12)

570 Jan 19, Mohammed (d.632), "The Prophet", founder of Islam and speaker in the “Koran," was born into the Quraysh tribe in Makkah. He was orphaned at an early age and found work in a trade caravan. He married a wealthy widow and this gave him the freedom to visit Mount Hira each year to think. His birthday is observed on the 12th day of Rabi ul'Awwal, the 3rd month of the lunar calendar, in a festival known as Mawlid-al-Nabi. The Koran was probably not fixed for the 1st two centuries after the emergence of Islam.
   (ATC, p.59)(SFC, 7/6/98, p.A14)(WSJ, 11/15/01, p.A16)(Econ, 4/28/07, p.97)

610 Apr 6, Lailat-ul Qadar: The night that the Koran descended to Earth. Muhammad is believed by his followers to have had a vision of Gabriel. The angel told him to recite in the name of God. Other visions are supposed to have Gabriel lead Muhammad to heaven to meet God, and to Jerusalem to meet Abraham, Moses and Jesus. These visions convinced Mohammad that he was a messenger of God.
   (ATC, p.59)(MC, 4/6/02)

620 Aug 22, This day corresponds to the 27th day of Rajab, 1427, in the Islamic calendar. It commemorates to the night flight of Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq to the farthest mosque, usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back.
   (WSJ, 8/8/06, p.A10)(www.atheists.org/Islam/mohammedanism.html)

620 Mohammad gained about a hundred converts including some wealthy Meccan families. This made other Meccans hostile. Mohammad in this year dreamed of being transported from Mecca to the Rock of Mariah in Jerusalem, from which he ascended into heaven and received instructions from God for himself and his followers.
   (ATC, p.59)(ON, 7/03, p.6)

622 Jul 16, Islamic Era began. Mahomet began his flight from Mecca to Medina (Hegira).
   (MC, 7/16/02)

622 Sep 20, Prophet Mohammed Abu Bakr arrived in Jathrib (Medina).
   (MC, 9/20/01)

622AD Sep 24, In the Hegira Muhammed left Mecca for Medina (aka Yathrib) with 75 followers. This event marked the beginning of the Islamic lunar calendar. The new faith was called "Islam," which means submission to Allah. Believers in Islam are called Muslims-- "Those who submit to Allah's will." In Medina Mohammad tried to unite the Jews and Arabs and initially faced Jerusalem to pray. The Jewish leaders did not accept Mohammad as a prophet and so Mohammad expelled from the city the Jews who opposed him. From then on he commanded the Muslims to face the Kaaba in Mecca when praying.
   (V.D.-H.K.p.19)(ATC, p.60)

622 The Constitution of Medina was drafted by the Islamic prophet Muhammad about this time. It constituted a formal agreement between Muhammad and all of the significant tribes and families of Yathrib (later known as Medina), including Muslims, Jews, and pagans.
   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina)

624 Muslims engaged non-believers for the 1st time at the Battle of Badr.
   (www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=128)

624-628 Several Jewish clans in the Arabian peninsula joined forces with an Arab tribe, the Quraysh, to make war on a renegade Qurayshi named Mohammad, who claimed he was a prophet of God.
   (Econ, 8/14/10, p.68)

630 Mohammad raised an army of 10,000 and took over Mecca (Makkah). He immediately set out to destroy all the idols at Kaaba. The black stone remained embedded in the corner. The area around became the first mosque, or Muslim house of worship. Mohammad returned from Madinah and began the Islamic conquest of Arabia.
   (ATC, p.60)(WSJ, 11/15/01, p.A16)

632 Jun 8, Mohammed, the founder of Islam and unifier of Arabia, died. Iqra, which means read in Arabic, was reportedly the first word that the archangel Gabriel spoke to Mohammed. His companions compiled his words and deeds in a work called the Sunna. Here are contained the rules for Islam. The most basic are The Five Pillars of Islam. These are: 1) profession of faith 2) daily prayer 3) giving alms 4) ritual fast during Ramadan 5) Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. The Sunna also calls for “jihad." The term means struggle, i.e. to do one’s best to resist temptation and overcome evil. Four contenders stood out to succeed Mohammad. They were Abu Bakr, his trusted father-in-law. Umar and Uthman, long-time friends and advisers, and Ali, a cousin and blood relative. Ali was Mohammad’s son-in-law and the father of Mohammad’s grandsons. Abu Bakr was chosen as caliph i.e. successor. In 2001 Minou Reeves, Iranian-born scholar, authored “Muhammad in Europe: A Thousand Years of Western Myth-Making." In 2013 Lesley Hazleton authored “The First Muslim: The Story of Muhammad."
   (ATC, p.60,63)(SFC, 12/15/98, p.A7)(AP, 6/8/03)(SFC, 10/22/98, p.C5)(WSJ, 12/12/01, p.A15)(SSFC, 1/27/13, p.F1)

632-661 The Rashidun Caliphate, also known as the Rightly Guided Caliphate, comprising the first four caliphs in Islam's history, was founded after Muhammad's death. At its height, the Caliphate extended from the Arabian Peninsula, to the Levant, Caucasus and North Africa in the west, to the Iranian highlands and Central Asia in the east. It was the one of the largest empires in history up until that time.
   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphate)

634 Aug 22, Abu Bekr Abd Allah (61), [al-Siddik], successor of Mohammed, died. He was a friend, an Arabic merchant, Mohammed’s father-in-law and the first Caliph. Before his death he appointed Mohammed's adviser Omar (Umar) as his successor.
   (ATC, p.66)(PC, 1992, p.61)

644 Nov 3, Umar of Arabia, the 2nd Caliph of Islam, was stabbed by Abu Lulu while leading the morning prayers at Medina. He died 4 days later on Nov 7. On his deathbed Umar named a council to choose the next caliph. The council appointed Uthman. Uthman continued to expand the Muslim empire.
   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar)

656 In Saudi Arabia Uthman (Othman), the 3rd caliph, was murdered. Under his rule a full, standard text of the Quran was compiled. He had appointed members of his own family as regional governors and caused bitter jealousy among other families. This caused an angry mob of 500 to murder him. This gave Ali an opportunity to claim power. Some claim that Ali plotted Uthman’s murder. Civil war broke out. Muawija, Uthman’s cousin and governor of Syria, challenged Ali’s right to rule. Ali prepared for war but was murdered by an angry former supporter. The followers of Ali became known as Shiites from the Arabic meaning "the party of Ali." Those who believe that the election of the first three caliphs was valid and who claim to follow the Sunna reject the Shiite idea of the Imam, and are called the Sunnis.
   (ATC, p.67-68)(WSJ, 1/12/08, p.A6)
656 The Imam Ali mosque in Najaf marks the grave of Ali, the son-in-law of Mohammed and a central figure in Shiite Islam.
   (SFC, 4/23/98, p.A16)

661 Jan 24, Ali ibn Abu Talib, caliph of Islam (656-61), was murdered. Caliph Ali, son-in-law of Mohammed, was assassinated and his followers (Shiites) broke from the majority Muslim group.
   (SFC, 3/16/02, p.A14)(MC, 1/24/02)



So removing all that in the 2nd quote as harry potter story of Islam ., the first part from the time 900 Ad or so need to be investigated to figure out when these Mecca and Madina towns are established as pilgrim towns ,,

As far as Quran is concerned .. it appears to be certain that the geography of that book is nothing to do with the present Mecca and Madina.. and it may be more to do with those ancient well known towns of northern Arabia that we see here

What is your opinion on that dear Altara?

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Reply #2167 - June 07, 2018, 03:27 PM

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when in this time line of Arabia the present Mecca and Madina towns are established as pilgrim towns for world wide Muslims is the question to answer

Dear yeezevee, may be I have the when explication (a coherent and rational one) or maybe I have not, it is not the topic ; the more important is pilgrim towns have been established . Meaning that before, as confirming by the sources, there was nothing. Except a swamp for local camels in Yatrib. Our friend Mahgraye thinks that it is Zubayr in 670 about Mecca. Why not? Then if he is Muslim he must abandon all his beliefs (Khalid b.Walid, Zem zem, Abu Bakr in the cave, etc.)

On the other hand, I will (again) repeat one thing that I think it is an important one. It seems to me hardly plausible that the story of a man talking every week to God during 20 years have taken place in a city of Late Antique Orient. Because Late Antique Orient is not Kepler-22b.
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Reply #2168 - June 07, 2018, 03:56 PM

Books on early Islam and late antiquity

https://earlyislamicbooks.wordpress.com

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Reply #2169 - June 07, 2018, 04:25 PM

Quote from: Altara on June 07, 2018, 03:27 PM
Dear yeezevee, may be I have the when explication (a coherent and rational one) or maybe I have not, it is not the topic ; the more important is pilgrim towns have been established . Meaning that before, as confirming by the sources, there was nothing. Except a swamp for local camels in Yatrib.

I agree with you.. and even if (BIG IF)there was a Muhammad.. a priest who may have told stories of earlier Abrahamic faiths to pagans of northern Arabia and preached No God but one God concept ., these Present Mecca and Madina as the Important Islamic historical towns is nothing but nonsense.....

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Our friend Mahgraye thinks that it is Zubayr in 670 about Mecca. Why not? Then ~~if he is Muslim~~ he must abandon all his beliefs (Khalid b.Walid, Zem zem, Abu Bakr in the cave, etc.)
javascript:void(0);

  well even if he is ., I am certain he is interested in facts of Islam Altara .. he may need more proof but he is NOT a blind believer
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On the other hand, I will (again) repeat one thing that I think it is an important one. It seems to me hardly plausible that the story of a man talking every week to God during 20 years have taken place in a city of Late Antique Orient. Because Late Antique Orient is not

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.............. Kepler-22b.........



https://sites.google.com/site/quransciences/general-science/kepler-22-

Kepler-22b is already popular in Islam ..we don''t need to advertise that to foolish Islamic scientists

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Reply #2170 - June 07, 2018, 06:03 PM

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he may need more proof but he is NOT a blind believer

One thing. If he need "more proof" the better is to build a time machine and go back to the 7th c. There is no proof in this forum There is plausibility relative to the sources.
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Reply #2171 - June 07, 2018, 06:20 PM

A papyrus in Latin and Arabic: http://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/06/two-in-one-a-newly-identified-bilingual-papyrus.html

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1004709279759323136

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Reply #2172 - June 07, 2018, 06:30 PM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/kwo_vadis/status/1004113436819755008
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I am thinking of eg the Mekka discussion. Gibson (I know, not the favorite person here), claims that the earliest copies don't have 48:24. I checked Corpus Coranicum but I lack the insight to judge :-(

Statistics question: say there are ten 7C extant Qurans with randomly 50% of text preserved (=conservative estimate). What is the chance that the word Meccah from verse 48:24 is not present in any of them?

Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/therealsidky/status/1004575980285984768
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A neat question: What is the likelihood of a certain verse/page of the Qurʾān surviving in a 7th c muṣḥaf? The answer can actually help us learn more about the size and contents of old Qurʾāns! For now, lets do a back-of-the-envelope calculation.

And: https://mobile.twitter.com/MayShaddel/status/1004659741409198080
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Lack of basic knowledge of probability is a burning issue in the field. That's why Cook's work was neglected, and that's why Dan Gibson was able to arrive at such a totally off-the-mark conclusion from his observations.

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Reply #2173 - June 07, 2018, 07:59 PM

I am trying to look at both sides of the debate and evaluate their arguments instead of following a side based on emotions, polemics, etc.

Let us go back to Mecca. My comment about Ibn al-Zubayr is by no mean controversial and is based on research affirming that Mecca did not exist. Allow me to quote Édouard-Marie Gallez:

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Dan Gibson’s research shed new light on the origins of Islam (in a book and a documentary). What does it mean?

Noticing that the prayer directions (or qibla-s) of ancient mosques did not point to Mecca until after 725 (and we have even to wait 822 before seeing all the new mosques pointing towards Mecca), Dan Gibson put attention to mosques dating back to 725, many of which seem oriented towards ... Petra in Jordan.

And Mecca? Before becoming the holy place of official Islam , Mecca is believed to have been the capital of the anti-caliph Al-Zubayr (660-692); but how could such a little and remote place – and as dry as a bone – have ever been his capital? Petra is a much better (and real) rear base for an opponent to the masters of Damascus Yazid and then ‘Abd Al-Malik!

Unlike Dan Gibson, we don’t see Petra as birthplace of Islam (he locates there Ka‘ba, Zamzam, Bakka etc. without any topo-paleographic argument). The link of Petra with the primo-Islam only is Al-Zubayr. In their disarray after waiving Jerusalem as qibla and after ‘Ali’s murder, his supporters must have turned to his capital for praying. And that’s all!

At the opposite our own research rigorously highlighted a Mount “Abu Qubays” in northern Syria (its summit bore a “sanctuary of Abraham” according to a Persian source): this name obviously was transferred to a mount at the edge of the Meccan basin. Moreover, just not far from there can be found mount Abu Ka‘ba –: its name is historically attested, it is not a speculation. And above all, the name of Muhammad ’s tribe, Quraysh, is that of northern Syrian place and river! And there are other clues more.

All these data clearly suggest that Mecca was founded later than 660 (as a place of pilgrimage); when precisely? No source ever mentions Makkah (in Arabia) before the 8th century, but thanks to Gibson’s work and to the historical knowledge about Al-Zubayr, we may place the foundation of Mecca after the defeat of Al-Zubayr (based in Petra) i.e. at the time of ‘Abd Al-Malik.

Several revisionist scholars argue that Mecca was founded by Ibn al-Zubayr in ca. 670 to counter Mu3awiya. The one who informed me me of this did not remember the name of the scholars who argue as such, but he managed to at least mention two: Ohlig and Crone. The former is one of the most radical scholars out there and does not even believe that Muhammad existed, so he should be to Altara's liking.

Additional information: There seems to exist some hints that the Zubayrids laid a claim to a site located south of Yathrib during the 60s/680s. Some early sources seem to vindicate that assumption. John of Fenek (more commonly known as John bar Penkāyē) describes the site as “Abrahamic” and Anastasius of Sinai notes the occurrence of sacrifices there. Based on the above, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a *shrine* might have existed in that general are, although the evidence is not conclusive and the question remains difficult to answer. Mecca was thus the base of Ibn al-Zubayr and his followers.

The dates from both scholars fit nicely together and same could be said with the coinage and the shahāda.

These scholars whom I relied upon all agree with Altara that Mecca did not exist and none of them follow the traditional narrative.
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Reply #2174 - June 07, 2018, 08:57 PM

Is it actually likely that there wasn’t a pre-Islamic Mecca in some form? Isn’t it more probable that a settlement existed on a scale that we might see as a large village or small town rather than a city, that simply wasn’t important enough to get a mention in earlier written records. This says nothing in itself about whether there’s any truth in the traditional narrative.

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Reply #2175 - June 07, 2018, 08:58 PM

That sounds very reasonable, Zeca. It would fit somewhat with the idea that there exited a shrine in that general area. But still, no source mentions a city named Mecca until the 8th century. You are also right that this has no bearing on whether the traditional narrative is accurate or not.
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Reply #2176 - June 07, 2018, 10:32 PM

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Let us go back to Mecca. My comment about Ibn al-Zubayr is by no mean controversial .

Ask Sean Anthony, Daniel Beck, Ian D. Morris, Emran El-Badawi, on Twitter if they think that Zubayr have founded "Mecca"! Thanks to copy they respond here. I think I've forgotten someone... Ah yes! the great and formidable scholar May Shaddel ! Yes May, Ar Raqim is Petra. Petra was known by the Quranic authors of course...
If they say yes, they have to abandon all the narrative. Because it does not fit, as "Mecca" is the place of the "prophet", etc. Nor elsewhere >>> all the history have to be reconstructed.
Zubayr (660-692) is anti caliph after "Kerbala", not before. So 680, not 660.
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Unlike Dan Gibson, we don’t see Petra as birthplace of Islam (he locates there Ka‘ba, Zamzam, Bakka etc. without any topo-paleographic argument)

Yes.

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The link of Petra with the primo-Islam only is Al-Zubayr. In their disarray after waiving Jerusalem as qibla and after ‘Ali’s murder, his supporters must have turned to his capital for praying. And that’s all!

No.

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All these data clearly suggest that Mecca was founded later than 660 (as a place of pilgrimage); when precisely?

That is the question.

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Several revisionist scholars argue that Mecca was founded by Ibn al-Zubayr in ca. 670 to counter Mu3awiya.but he managed to at least mention two: Ohlig and Crone

Crone? Source?
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so he should be to Altara's liking.

I like or dislike nobody.
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John of Fenek (more commonly known as John bar Penkāyē) describes the site as “Abrahamic”

Source?
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Anastasius of Sinai notes the occurrence of sacrifices there

Not located by Anastasius .
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These scholars whom I relied upon all agree with Altara that Mecca did not exist and none of them follow the traditional narrative.

Are you sure that I agree with them dear Mahgraye? Really? If yes, you misread me.
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Reply #2177 - June 07, 2018, 11:14 PM

As you are well aware, none of the scholars you mentioned believes the theory proposed here. Beck and Morris might be the exceptions because they are revisionists, but I am not sure. Everything I said was based on critical, revisionist scholarship that rejects the position adhered to by Anthony, Badawi, Shaddel, etc.

Based on the evidence, Ibn al-Zubayr is undoubtedly related to Mecca. Where this Mecca is located, is another question. That is all. Nothing to do with the credibility of the traditional narrative or the existence of Mecca prior to the paleo-Muslim expansion.

Notice that the problem of the traditional narrative lies with those you mentioned and not with what I wrote.

Unfortunately, I do not have the citation for Crone, but will search for it. Will give it to you as soon as I get it.

Regarding Ohlig, my intention was to find some common ground between me and you, considering that Ohlig is just as skeptical as your are, if not more.

When I said that the scholars I relied upon agree with you I meant that they all skeptical of the traditional narrative and that they all beleive that Mecca did not exist until a certain point. Did not claim that you all agree on the details.

My source for John of Fenek and Anastasius is a David Reid Ross. Will search for the original sources.

I think I have understood you, insofar that there is no evidence for a city called Mecca prior to the paleo-Muslim expansion, that is, until the 8th century.

But what did you mean by writing this:

Quote
Zubayr (660-692) is anti caliph after "Kerbala", not before. So 680, not 660.

I see. Ibn al-Zubayr fled to Mecca in 680 CE, but he was still at war with the Umayyads in Damascus prior to that. Minor detail.

Hope this answered your questions.
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Reply #2178 - June 08, 2018, 12:50 AM

Quote
Based on the evidence, Ibn al-Zubayr is undoubtedly related to Mecca.Where this Mecca is located, is another question.Nothing to do with the credibility of the traditional narrative or the existence of Mecca prior to the paleo-Muslim expansion.Unfortunately, I do not have the citation for Crone, but will search for it. Will give it to you as soon as I get it. think I have understood you, insofar that there is no evidence for a city called Mecca prior to the paleo-Muslim expansion, that is, until the 8th century.

1/Yes. Suffice to read the source. 2/ A great question. 3/ (yawn).4/Thanks.5/ No Mecca (prior to the paleo-Muslim expansion) =no "prophet". I repeat (again) no need of a "prophet" to write the Quran. (Remember the Quran, he's always here, lurking...^^)
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Reply #2179 - June 08, 2018, 01:07 AM

Quote from: zeca on June 07, 2018, 08:57 PM
Is it actually likely that there wasn’t a pre-Islamic Mecca in some form? Isn’t it more probable that a settlement existed on a scale that we might see as a large village or small town rather than a city, that simply wasn’t important enough to get a mention in earlier written records.

How did these people would have lived? Food and water brought by who? Paid by what? Smiles ?
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Reply #2180 - June 08, 2018, 01:46 AM

Quote
How did these people would have lived? Food and water brought by who? Paid by what? Smiles ?

With all due respect, Altara, but this argument is very wrong. Everything you said might be true. Mecca might not have existed. Mecca might not fit the description of the Koran and the later sources. Fine. But please, and I say this with all due respect, do not go to the extreme. Water existed in Western Arabia. Western Arabia had its own Arabic script, meaning, there existed people there. Please take a look at this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2DdYDdJeKs

People still live in the desert and have access to food and water.
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Reply #2181 - June 08, 2018, 01:48 AM

I was not really discussing the Koran, but anyways. Yes, you do not necessarily need Muhammad in order to explain the Koran, but that is a topic of its own.

Damn, that yawn gets to me, haha.

The argument: No Mecca = No Muhammad/Prophet is, however, a non-sequitur. Now, I am not saying Muhammad therefore existed. No. I am only saying that you can argue for Muhammad's non-historicity on other, more cogent, grounds, but this argument in particular is just a non-sequitur.
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Reply #2182 - June 08, 2018, 08:21 AM

Quote from: Altara on June 08, 2018, 01:07 AM
How did these people would have lived? Food and water brought by who? Paid by what? Smiles ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P2CUMfXXjdE

Which side are you on?
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Reply #2183 - June 08, 2018, 08:23 AM

Thanks, Zeca. The video you posted is enough to refute Altara's argument (with all due respect to Altara, of course). Combine that with the video I posted were one can see a near flood. This phenomenon is common.
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Reply #2184 - June 08, 2018, 08:44 AM

It's rather naive Zeca. Surprising that a Western guy dare to post this kind of argument whereas he usually post academic articles (yawn)...
... Because we all know that things don't go that way. Curious. I'm sure there's an explication to this.

Quote
The video you posted is enough to refute Altara's argument

Zeca know very well that it refutes nothing.

Thanks to come back to serious things all of you guys.
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Reply #2185 - June 08, 2018, 09:21 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 08, 2018, 01:48 AM
I was not really discussing the Koran, but anyways. Yes, you do not necessarily need Muhammad in order to explain the Koran, but that is a topic of its own.

Hahaha ! Surely not. All is bonded in the narrative. No prophet, no Quran.

Quote
Damn, that yawn gets to me, haha.

The power of words. Think of it.
Quote
The argument: No Mecca = No Muhammad/Prophet is, however, a non-sequitur.

No. All is bonded in the narrative.
Quote
Now, I am not saying Muhammad therefore existed. No. I am only saying that you can argue for Muhammad's non-historicity on other, more cogent, grounds, but this argument in particular is just a non-sequitur.

Nope. Elsewhere his story would have plausibly spread. And nothing has spread. 20 years talking to God, in a Late Antique peninsula heavily Christianized, as we all now know it was (30/40 years ago we did not know that...) We all believed/thought that the narrative was historical : Christians in Najran! And only there! It's inexact. Christians (all kinds of..) were everywhere and there's nothing. Confirming the silence of the sources : nothing. So no "Mecca" is really = no "prophet". Because elsewhere city = no "prophet" as well because the fact that nothing has spread during 20 long years, seems "curious" for the historian of Late Antiquity. I say "historian" I do not say "professor of arabic/persian/syriac/theology" like Anthony Gorke, Badawi, Tesei, or others...Think of it.
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Reply #2186 - June 08, 2018, 10:01 AM

Mecca gets around 110 mm of rainfall a year (source). This compares with around 1 mm a year in Aswan (source) and around 580 mm a year in London. Places with a desert climate can have vastly different levels of rainfall.

Edit: for comparison Petra gets around 190 mm a year (source).

Which side are you on?
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Reply #2187 - June 08, 2018, 10:02 AM

Altara, do you really believe that no one lived in Western Arabia? Really?
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Reply #2188 - June 08, 2018, 10:21 AM

Quote from: zeca on June 08, 2018, 10:01 AM
Mecca gets around 110 mm of rainfall a year (source). This compares with around 1 mm a year in Aswan (source) and around 580 mm a year in London. Places with a desert climate can have vastly different levels of rainfall.

Thanks to be serious.
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Reply #2189 - June 08, 2018, 10:23 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on June 08, 2018, 10:02 AM
Altara, do you really believe that no one lived in Western Arabia? Really?

It is not what I say at all.
Sources are silent about what affirms the narrative.
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #2160 - June 06, 2018, 08:47 PM

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