Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #2010 - May 15, 2018, 12:58 PM

Carlos Segovia - The Christology of the Qur’an: Putting the Puzzle Together (Aarhus University, Fall 2018 • Master-level Seminar) / Syllabus

https://www.academia.edu/36602795/The_Christology_of_the_Qur_an_Putting_the_Puzzle_Together_Aarhus_University_Fall_2018_Master-level_Seminar_Syllabus

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Reply #2011 - May 15, 2018, 01:06 PM

http://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2018/05/some-thoughts-on-the-poetic-koine.html

Make sure to read Al-Jallad’s comments at the bottom.
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Reply #2012 - May 16, 2018, 10:37 AM

The syllabus of Segovia is interesting. And the van Putten's comments as well. Even if his mind is polluted by the traditional account ("revelation", "Hijaz", etc) which fight against his linguistic skills. Yet, he is able to remark that those affirmations about the language of the Quran contradicts harshly what his scientific skills tell him : that these affirmations do not fit with the Quranic Consonantal Text :

Quote
It is of course possible that the orthography does not adequately represent the ʿArabiyyah (a poetic koine that functioned as an intertribal form of communication of high poetic culture, close – if not identical – to what eventually came to be thought of as Classical Arabic.). It certainly is not the first time that we are confronted with an orthography which deviates significantly from the language it is supposed to write. The Quran, however, is unique in that its orthography points to a linguistic situation which is less archaic than the language it is supposed to represent.

It is supposed only by the affirmations of the traditional account which pollutes the brain of the all scholarship, which state that the Quran is related to "poetry". It is inexact. Manfred Kropp had already seen this : that the work of the grammarians of the 8 and 9th c had consisted in giving an archaic poetic form to the text because he did not have one. I add to Kropp statement that it was done because it is the "language of God" which cannot be otherwise. That's why they did it.
Make sure to read the van Putten's note he wrote here : https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/the-status-quaestionis-of-%CA%BFarabiyyah-pre-islamic-poetry-and-the-quran/
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Reply #2013 - May 16, 2018, 10:03 PM

Al-Jallad is now on twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/996766392107130880

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Reply #2014 - May 17, 2018, 09:14 PM

Quote from: Altara on April 25, 2018, 12:46 AM
Daniel Beck's point :

Evolution of the Early Qur’ān
From Anonymous Apocalypse to Charismatic Prophet

Critical scholarship on the Qur’ān and early Islam has neglected the enigmatic earliest surahs. Advocating a more evolutionary analytical method, this book argues that the basal surahs are logical, clear, and intelligible compositions. The analysis systematically elucidates the apocalyptic context of the Qur’ān’s most archaic layers. Decisive new explanations are given for classic problems such as what the surah of the elephant means, why an anonymous man is said to frown and turn away from a blind man, why the prophet is summoned as one who wraps or cloaks himself, and what the surah of the qadr refers to.

Grounded in contemporary context, the analysis avoids reducing these innovative recitations to Islamic, Jewish, or Christian models. By capitalizing on recent advances in fields such as Arabian epigraphy, historical linguistics, Manichaean studies, and Sasanian history, a very different picture of the early quranic milieu emerges. This picture challenges prevailing critical and traditional models alike. Against the view that quranic revelation was a protracted process, the analysis suggests a more compressed timeframe, in which Mecca played relatively little role. The analysis further demonstrates that the earliest surahs were already intimately connected to the progression of the era’s cataclysmic Byzantine-Sasanian war. All scholars interested in the Qur’ān, early Islam, late antique history, and the apocalyptic genre will be interested in the book’s dynamic new approach to resolving intractable problems in these areas.

Preface – Acknowledgments – Maccabees Not Mecca : The Biblical Subtext and the Apocalyptic Context of Sūrat al-Fīl (Q 105) – Al-Ṣamad of Sūrat al-Iḫlāṣ (Q 112) – On the Genealogy of the Rasūl Function : From Eschatological Descent of the Astral Messenger to the Devotional Ascent of the Earthly Messenger – Sūrat al-Qadr (Q 97) : Celebrating the Celestial Savior’s Descent and Refuting Christian Communal Ritual – Opening and Pouring-Out the Warner : Sūrat al-Šarḥ (Q 94) and the Construction of Quranic Prophetology – A Servant Wrapped in Glory : The Counter-Baptism of Sūrat al-Muddaṯṯir and Sūrat al-Muzzammil (Q 73 and 74) – Postface—Chronology and Geography – Works Cited – Index.

https://www.peterlang.com/view/product/83373?tab=subjects

Most of the preface and postface of this book can be read by following the ‘look inside’ function on amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Evolution-Early-Quran-Charismatic-Apocalypticism/dp/1433146908

They are well worth reading and follow on from some of the arguments and references on this thread.

Edit: the missing pages may be frustrating but differ between different amazon sites:

https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Early-Qurān-Charismatic-Apocalypticism/dp/1433146908

https://www.amazon.de/Evolution-Early-Quran-Charismatic-Apocalypticism/dp/1433146908

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Reply #2015 - May 18, 2018, 12:48 AM

http://www.sultan.org/books/Patricia_crone_english_reply.pdf

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Reply #2016 - May 18, 2018, 09:19 AM

Quote from: olweasel on May 18, 2018, 12:48 AM
http://www.sultan.org/books/Patricia_crone_english_reply.pdf

hmm that guy once upon a time power guy with lots of petro dollars ., i wonder where he is now,,.....
Quote from: Altara on May 16, 2018, 10:37 AM
The syllabus of Segovia is interesting. ...............

hello Altara just curious., did you read that book of Dr. Amaal Muhammad Al-Roubi ?? if not please read it............

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Reply #2017 - May 18, 2018, 10:24 AM

Quote from: zeca on May 17, 2018, 09:14 PM
Most of the preface and postface of this book can be read by following the ‘look inside’ function on amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Evolution-Early-Quran-Charismatic-Apocalypticism/dp/1433146908

They are well worth reading and follow on from some of the arguments and references on this thread.

Edit: the missing pages may be frustrating but differ between different amazon sites:

https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Early-Qurān-Charismatic-Apocalypticism/dp/1433146908

https://www.amazon.de/Evolution-Early-Quran-Charismatic-Apocalypticism/dp/1433146908

Sorry but really unreadable for me. I'd be better if we had both in PDF on academia. I'm sure that Daniel can deal with that...
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Reply #2018 - May 18, 2018, 11:18 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on May 18, 2018, 09:19 AM
hmm that guy once upon a time power guy with lots of petro dollars ., i wonder where he is now,,.....
hello Altara just curious., did you read that book of Dr. Amaal Muhammad Al-Roubi ?? if not please read it............

I'm reading his preface. And I will read it. but it seems totally outdated :

Quote from: Al-Roubi
"3. Where in Arabia are the missionary activities
Crone is talking about? Islam is the predominant religion
there with the exception of sporadic pockets in Yemen
where a few hundreds of Jews live. Crone talks about
missionary activities without referring to any source to
verify this piece of information."

All of this is inexact. We know today that all liveable place in the peninsula got many Christians and/or Jews.
It seems that Al-Roubi is the only response to Crone But one important thing. As already said, I'm not agree wit her because one way or another she takes into account the traditional account she could not help herself to do it : There's a paper in academia in French ,( 4 pages, Crone sceptic bla bla bla) that explain this issue. Take it then : google translate or https://www.deepl.com/ (better)... I'm agree with the guy in academia.

Quote from: Al-Roubi
"First, is Crone's rejection of historical and
geographical facts claiming that the Holy City of Makkah
is not situated on its original historical location. She
moved the location of Makkah on the map thereby
rejecting all indications made by Greek and Roman
authors to Makkah in the old ages."

There's no f*** Mecca (as recounted by Ibn Ishaq) before Islam. End of story. You cannot f**** reasoning in taking one piece of the traditional account into account because guys like Al-Roubi will come and start to cite dozens of Muslims historians who have already did the work about the city, creating the whole story.
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Reply #2019 - May 18, 2018, 11:25 AM

Quote from: Altara on May 18, 2018, 10:24 AM
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Reply #2020 - May 18, 2018, 01:25 PM

Quote from: Altara on May 18, 2018, 11:18 AM
I'm reading his preface. And I will read it. but it seems totally outdated :

Quote
"3. Where in Arabia are the missionary activities Crone is talking about? Islam is the predominant religion there with the exception of sporadic pockets in Yemen where a few hundreds of Jews live. Crone talks about missionary activities without referring to any source to verify this piece of information."[/i]

this Altara ...{{Q.... " "3. Where in Arabia are the missionary activities..// }} stuff .. Is it from you from that guy Dr. Amaal Muhammad Al-Roubi's book?

Quote
All of this is inexact. We know today that all liveable place in the peninsula got many Christians and/or Jews.

It seems that it is the only response to Crone But one important thing. As already said, I'm not agree wit her because one way or another she takes into account the traditional account she could not help herself : There's a paper in academia in French ,( 4 pages, Crone sceptic bla bla bla) that explain this issue. Take it then : google translate or https://www.deepl.com/ (better)... I'm agree with the guy here.

well I too do not agree with all she wrote but I must say she is the first one from west to shake the "TRADITIONAL TREE OF ISLAM"

Quote
Quote
Al-Roubi :
"First, is Crone's rejection of historical and geographical facts claiming that the Holy City of Makkah is not situated on its original historical location. She
moved the location of Makkah on the map thereby rejecting all indications made by Greek and Roman authors to Makkah in the old ages."

There's no Mecca (as recounted by Ibn Ishaq) before Islam. End of story. You cannot reasoning in taking one piece of the traditional account into account because guys like Al-Roubi will come and start to cite dozens of Muslims historians who have already did the work about the city, creating the whole story.

what ?? I didn't get your point., did Ibn Ishaq says "There is no mecca" in that book "Sirat Rasoolallah"??
Quote
http://www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-2-makoraba-macoraba/
https://fayezthezealot.wordpress.com/tag/makkah-mention-in-ancient-greek-and-roman-sources/
http://rrimedia.org/Resources/Articles/studies-by-classical-writers-show-that-mecca-could-not-have-been-built-before-the-4th-century-ad

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Reply #2021 - May 18, 2018, 02:51 PM

Dear Yeez, I've modified the stuff to be more clear.
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Reply #2022 - May 19, 2018, 12:11 PM

Quote from: Altara on May 18, 2018, 02:51 PM
Dear Yeez, I've modified the stuff to be more clear.

oh I see ., well let me put some links on that Ibn Ishaq's book "Sirat Rasoul Allah ".. different people (Muslims as well as Non-Muslims) did different things with that book.. It is incredible to see what people have done with that book and that too they translated in to different langues...by adding /subtracting different stories in to it..
Quote

Sirate Rasul_ Bengali Version Translated by Akhand, Shahid Tr.

Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah - The Life of Muhammad_English version Translated by A. Guillaume

Das Leben Mohammed's nach Mohammed ibn Ishak_German Version

Ibn Isahaq Serat Nabi Tr Guillaum by Ibn Isahaq, translated by Guillaum English version ..just personal opinion of Mr.Guillaum NOT WHOLE BOOK

Sirat Rasoul Allah _The earliest biography of Muhammad, by ibn Ishaq Unknown author English.... and it is An abridged version ..sort of discussion on that book

Seerah Of Rasul Allah SAW Ibn Ishaq by True_Islamic_MediaLanguage English .. Unknown author...

Seerat e Rasoolullah: Tarjuma e Seerat e Ibn e Ishaq -Language Persian ., translated by Muhammad Hamadani (Farsi Tarjuma)

well there are more versions of that book out there but this is interesting .. this link at https://archive.org/details/IbnIshaqMuhammad is also Guillaume translation but unlike other versions of Guillaume which is some 400 pages but this one is 863 pages

Ibn Ishaq'sSirat Rasul Allah - The Life of Muhammad Translated by A. Guillaume 863 page version

well let me scan through it

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Reply #2023 - May 20, 2018, 05:55 PM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/998132416282873856
Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
The #Safaitic inscription KRS 1131 contains a unique invocation: ḫaraṣa ʾahl-oh ḥāṣ́era fa-hā-ʾAḤAD wal-lāt salām le-ḏī daʿaya 'he kept watch for his family while camping near water so O ʾAḥad and Allāt, may he who reads (this) have security and spoil'

This is the only occurrence of the god name ʾaḥad, literally 'One'. The term is used in the the Shema (שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָֽד) Deut. 6:4. It is possible that the Safaitic nomads were invoking the God of Israel in this inscription, referring to him as 'the one god'. Ironically, while the Shema is the essence of Jewish monotheism, the polytheistic nomads invoked ʾaḥad, 'the one god', besides Allāt, the famous ancient Arabian goddess --a beautiful example of religious syncretism in the ancient world!

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Reply #2024 - May 20, 2018, 07:30 PM

Hmmm ... without doubt future founders of Mecca !
But I need that Ahmad Al-Jallad explains to me one thing. How is it that in the futuh, the conquerors have met nobody praying Allāt, al Uzza, etc., if this was so common... in the 7th c. as tells us the Quran... (yawn)...
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Reply #2025 - May 21, 2018, 11:42 AM

Ahmad Al-Jallad : The Damascus Psalm Fragment
Middle Arabic and the Legacy of Old Ḥigāzī
https://www.academia.edu/attachments/56617040/download_file?ct=MTUyNjg5OTg0NywxNTI2ODk5ODk5LDI2NzM0OTM=&s=news

Using this term : Ḥigāzī, Ahmad Al-Jallad disregards himself as a scholar (but not as a believer ) because there is not one piece of Ḥigāzī artefact /inscription known from the "Hijaz". That does exists. "Ḥigāzī" term, old or not, exists only in the traditional account. This appellation given by Michele Amari (c.1830-40) should be removed from all scientific work. Before Islam, nobody in Orient knows this term, invented ad hoc after 650.
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Reply #2026 - May 21, 2018, 03:34 PM

Ahmad Al-Jallad - “May God be mindful of Yazīd the King”: Reflections on the Yazīd Inscription, early Christian Arabic, and the development of the Arabic scripts

https://www.academia.edu/36680785/_May_God_be_mindful_of_Yazīd_the_King_Reflections_on_the_Yazīd_Inscription_early_Christian_Arabic_and_the_development_of_the_Arabic_scripts

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Reply #2027 - May 21, 2018, 04:19 PM

Marijn van Putten - Poetic Arabic and Dialects

http://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2018/05/poetic-arabic-and-dialects.html

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Reply #2028 - May 22, 2018, 03:16 PM

I am new on this forum, so i might get things wrong!

Marjin van Putten and Gabriel S. Reynolds had a disagreement on Twitter:
Gabriel wrote:
"The now standard 1924 Cairo text of the Quran is based not on manuscripts but on the Islamic tradition of "readings" (qira'at). Despite major scholarly advancements there is still no "critical edition" of the text. #EdXQuran"

Marjin van Putten answered:
"This is not true. It is based on guides that describes the rasm of Quran codices of the provinces such as Al-Dānī's Al-Muqniʿ fī Rasm Maṣāḥif al-ʾAmṣār, which explain in great detail which unusual spellings the Codices at the time used to have."

Who of them are correct?
Why has there not been a critical edition of the Cairo text?
https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/976819785915707392
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Reply #2029 - May 22, 2018, 05:35 PM

I’m not an expert but I’m inclined to accept what Marijn van Putten says.

There’s a report here of a Tunisian attempt at producing a critical edition of the Qur’an - whether it would satisfy the Qur’anic studies specialists is another question: https://en.qantara.de/content/critical-koran-edition-al-mushaf-wa-qiraʹatuh-explosive-potential?nopaging=1

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Reply #2030 - May 22, 2018, 05:49 PM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/998874501625663488
Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
In the Qur'an the pagans considered Allāt the daughter of Allah. In #Safaitic, Allāt is the daughter of Roḍaw, as in the following prayer--AWS 283: Allāt bent Roḍaw falleṭī mes-sanat haḥ-ḥarb 'Allat daughter of Roḍaw, deliver (us) from the year of war'.

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Reply #2031 - May 23, 2018, 12:23 AM

Quote from: zeca on May 22, 2018, 05:35 PM
I’m not an expert but I’m inclined to accept what Marijn van Putten says.

There’s a report here of a Tunisian attempt at producing a critical edition of the Qur’an - whether it would satisfy the Qur’anic studies specialists is another question: https://en.qantara.de/content/critical-koran-edition-al-mushaf-wa-qiraʹatuh-explosive-potential?nopaging=1

No, this would not qualify as a critical edition of the Quran in the Western sense. So, scholars such as Gabriel Reynolds would not be satisfied. Although the edition might provide good information for scholars working on the Koran, and especially those interested in variant readings.
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Reply #2032 - May 23, 2018, 12:42 AM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on May 22, 2018, 03:16 PM
I am new on this forum, so i might get things wrong!

Marjin van Putten and Gabriel S. Reynolds had a disagreement on Twitter:
Gabriel wrote:
"The now standard 1924 Cairo text of the Quran is based not on manuscripts but on the Islamic tradition of "readings" (qira'at). Despite major scholarly advancements there is still no "critical edition" of the text. #EdXQuran"

Marjin van Putten answered:
"This is not true. It is based on guides that describes the rasm of Quran codices of the provinces such as Al-Dānī's Al-Muqniʿ fī Rasm Maṣāḥif al-ʾAmṣār, which explain in great detail which unusual spellings the Codices at the time used to have."

Who of them are correct?
Why has there not been a critical edition of the Cairo text?
https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/976819785915707392

Regarding your two very important questions, here is my answer, beginning with the first one.

Who is correct? Both, I think. It is true that there is no critical edition of the Koran like there is a critical edition of the Bible. But Reynolds is oversimplifying the case of the Cairo edition. True, it is not based Western scholarship, but it was not only based on the variant reading either. As Marijin noted, the Cairo edition was also based on Dānī's Muqniʿ, which is a very accurate book. And this is part of the problem, and this might also answer you second question. There is not much work to do on the Koran. The consonantal skeleton, i.e., the basic drawing, has been accurately preserved and it is very much uniform across all of our manuscripts. Even revisionists, such as Reynolds and Small, agree on this point. Another reason as to why there is no critical edition, is because we have not analysed all Koranic documents. This is currently being done by the Corpus Coranicum project. Anyways, a critical edition is on its way, thanks to Corpus Coranicum, and also, if I am not mistaken, the Inârah Institute.
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Reply #2033 - May 23, 2018, 02:50 PM

Interview with Ahmad Al-Jallad on the Yazid inscription (the podcast isn’t working for me but there’s a transcript):

https://15minutehistory.org/2018/05/23/episode-107-the-yazid-inscription/

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Reply #2034 - May 23, 2018, 05:55 PM

Quote from: zeca on May 23, 2018, 02:50 PM
Interview with Ahmad Al-Jallad on the Yazid inscription (the podcast isn’t working for me but there’s a transcription):

https://15minutehistory.org/2018/05/23/episode-107-the-yazid-inscription/

https://www.coursera.org/learn/knowledge-exchange/lecture/ycZaV/knowledge-exchange-in-practice-interview-with-dr-ahmad-al-jallad

Try This one on that 15 minute history of yazid inscription

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Reply #2035 - May 23, 2018, 07:01 PM

http://aminetais.com/on-fred-m-donners-muhammad-and-the-believers/

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Reply #2036 - May 23, 2018, 07:34 PM

Quote from: olweasel on May 23, 2018, 07:01 PM
http://aminetais.com/on-fred-m-donners-muhammad-and-the-believers/

Quote
Fred M. Donner’s Muhammad and the Believers: at the Origins of Islam is a novel interpretation of early Islamic history that attempts to strike a balance between the position defended by those historians who accept the traditional Muslim narrative in its general outline and the various revisionist scholars ................

“Muhammad and the Believers’ Movement” is the title of the second chapter. Donner starts the chapter by giving a summary of the traditional sīra narrative (“biography” of Muhammad).

....Donner cites the existence of a few non-Muslim sources from the seventh century that at least make reference to Muhammad and his followers, thus confirming the existence of a historical Muhammad and the occurrence of an expansion process. .......................................

what historical Muhammad??

sorry to say this.... but rubbish ..absolute rubbish... but i agree with his words "Origins of Islam is a novel" and it should be read as novel .. not early history of Islam..

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Reply #2037 - May 23, 2018, 08:03 PM

Yeezevee,

I do not know why you think it is rubbish. If you have evidence, please provide it. Muhammad is said to have died in 632 CE. Already within 8 years of his death we two sources explicitly mentioning him. And there is more. How do you deal with that?
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Reply #2038 - May 23, 2018, 09:08 PM

Elias Muhanna - A New History of Arabia, Written in Stone

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-new-history-of-arabia-written-in-stone

Edit: thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/QifaNabki/status/999362030778880000

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Reply #2039 - May 23, 2018, 09:19 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on May 23, 2018, 08:03 PM
Yeezevee,

I do not know why you think it is rubbish. If you have evidence, please provide it. Muhammad is said to have died in 632 CE.

which Muhammad are we talking about dear Mahgraye?? From Quran or from hadith ?? the word "Muhammad" is NOT a proper Arabic name ., you can add that word to many names as a leader or a praise worth person... see posts around this link

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=21713.msg877154#msg877154

How many Muhammad's do you see there? As far as Quranic Muhammad is concerned ... What do you read in Quran about Muhammad ? Quran is written in the name of "Muhammad" with the stories of Prophets of OT & NT to reinforce the faith in the converters..

Quote
Already within 8 years of his death we two sources explicitly mentioning him. And there is more. How do you deal with that?

I dealt with those stories and I will deal with it again but please give me the links on "Muhammad" the prophet of Islam existence ...

you must realize that "the Jewish folks , the Armenians, the Greeks, the Syrians and the Persians all these folks of that time were advanced cultures with written scripts.. Give me some proof from the historians of that time from those cultures ..

Storytellers are not historians

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

zeca

Reply #2010 - May 15, 2018, 12:58 PM

Zaotar

Reply #2011 - May 15, 2018, 01:06 PM

Altara

Reply #2012 - May 16, 2018, 10:37 AM

zeca

Reply #2013 - May 16, 2018, 10:03 PM

zeca

Reply #2014 - May 17, 2018, 09:14 PM

olweasel

Reply #2015 - May 18, 2018, 12:48 AM

yeezevee

Reply #2016 - May 18, 2018, 09:19 AM

Altara

Reply #2017 - May 18, 2018, 10:24 AM

Altara

Reply #2018 - May 18, 2018, 11:18 AM

Altara

Reply #2019 - May 18, 2018, 11:25 AM

yeezevee

Reply #2020 - May 18, 2018, 01:25 PM

Altara

Reply #2021 - May 18, 2018, 02:51 PM

yeezevee

Reply #2022 - May 19, 2018, 12:11 PM

zeca

Reply #2023 - May 20, 2018, 05:55 PM

Altara

Reply #2024 - May 20, 2018, 07:30 PM

Altara

Reply #2025 - May 21, 2018, 11:42 AM

zeca

Reply #2026 - May 21, 2018, 03:34 PM

zeca

Reply #2027 - May 21, 2018, 04:19 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #2028 - May 22, 2018, 03:16 PM

zeca

Reply #2029 - May 22, 2018, 05:35 PM

zeca

Reply #2030 - May 22, 2018, 05:49 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #2031 - May 23, 2018, 12:23 AM

Mahgraye

Reply #2032 - May 23, 2018, 12:42 AM

zeca

Reply #2033 - May 23, 2018, 02:50 PM

yeezevee

Reply #2034 - May 23, 2018, 05:55 PM

olweasel

Reply #2035 - May 23, 2018, 07:01 PM

yeezevee

Reply #2036 - May 23, 2018, 07:34 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #2037 - May 23, 2018, 08:03 PM

zeca

Reply #2038 - May 23, 2018, 09:08 PM

yeezevee

Reply #2039 - May 23, 2018, 09:19 PM

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