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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 205497 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1800 - March 12, 2018, 02:41 PM

    Hmm  as usual i must correct  Patrick prophet pubh
    Let's just say that all prophets of God, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and many others. They were all fictional characters. Or were they?

    well after correcting  Patrick prophet pubh ., let me re-read his statement...
      
    Quote
    Let's just say that.,  all the prophets of God are all fictional characters.  
    .............  Patrick prophet pubh

    that sounds better and closer to the truth....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1801 - March 12, 2018, 02:46 PM


      



    that  jpeg picture is from  that  one of dr. sean  twits

     

    and the above rock picture which is much older is from  Etruscan Civilization...  that looks like they too had Muhammad..

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1802 - March 12, 2018, 06:01 PM

    Yeez,

    I wonder how difficult it is to forge an inscription in Saudi Arabia...Has anyone tried?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1803 - March 12, 2018, 07:51 PM

    Altara,

    Yes. Currently, there seems to be no pre-Islamic reference to Mecca. That might change. But there is, according to Anthony, sources from the 7th century attesting Mecca.


    In the Quran, yes. I incline to say like Reynolds that the Quran is more ancient that usually thought.

    I am not sure why we need to assume that non-Arab sources are dependent on the testimony of the Hagarenes at all. Sure, they could well be, but the significance of the sources to begin with was their early and independent testimony. But you could be right.


    They are. They did not know nothing about what the few informations ("prophet"  "Muhammad"...) recounted by the "Hagarenes".




    Concerning Dye, you misunderstood what he was trying to say. Dye argued that Q. 19 originated in Palestine (i.e. outside of Mecca, and this also applies to other so-called Meccan suras). He never argued that the entire Quranic corpus originated in Syro-Palestine. In fact, he does not deny that parts of the Quranic corpus do indeed fit perfectly in Western Arabia (Ḥijāz).  He even says that he sees no reason to abandon the notion that Mecca existed before the advent of Islam. According to him, Mecca did exist, but was not a major trading center, nor was it a major city, but might have been a city that of religious significance. To be fair, he does say due to the obscurity of things pertaining to Mecca, there is indeed room for debate. He also claims, and rightly so, that the existence and size of Medina (Yathrib), as a city playing a role in early Islam, is more certain. 


    If you have a twitter account, ask him if he agrees with your statement.

    Otherwise :
    "According to him, Mecca did exist, but was not a major trading center, nor was it a major city,


    The traditional account says the exact contrary about "Mecca". And  Dye knows it very well. As it is "impossible" for an academic to say what I say here, it is the better he can do to lower considerably  its role. He knows as well that saying this, is saying that the traditional account is inexact : how what Dye describes can feed, clothes, equip 50 000 strong to wage war in Palestine and Iraq ? It is not credible, and he knows it.
    But  for Ibn Ishaq , it is necessary and  logical for him to describe "Mecca" as he does (great and rich city, etc) since he believes that the conquests are the fruit of the Quranic proclamation in "Mecca"  and departure of the conquest to Palestine and Iraq which involves  food, clothes, equipment and troops and therefore implies obligatorily  a great an rich city of commerce. 








     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1804 - March 13, 2018, 12:41 PM

    Yeez,

    I wonder how difficult it is to forge an inscription in Saudi Arabia...Has anyone tried?


    well  dear mundi., without doubt    answer to that question is "very easy"....   specially   those rock inscriptions of  Saudi Arabia  that  are found after 1970s..    And those that are found before that time have as usual RADIO CARBON DATING PROBLEMS.

    So  the  results are  NOT conclusive and open to debate .....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1805 - March 19, 2018, 02:43 PM

    Hi there,

    Is someone knows a place where we an get  : "The Jewish and or/Christian Audience of the Quran and the Arabic Bible" from Hoyland ? Thanks in advance !
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1806 - March 19, 2018, 02:56 PM

    Hi there,

    Is someone knows a place where we an get  : "The Jewish and or/Christian Audience of the Quran and the Arabic Bible" from Hoyland ? Thanks in advance !

     

    dear Altara.,  is that  a  book from Robert   Hoyland or is it a review/publication in  some  journal...??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1807 - March 19, 2018, 04:35 PM

    Hi there,

    Is someone knows a place where we an get  : "The Jewish and or/Christian Audience of the Quran and the Arabic Bible" from Hoyland ? Thanks in advance !

    dear Altara.,  is that  a  book from Robert   Hoyland or is it a review/publication in  some  journal...??

    Yeez - it’s a paper published in this collection: http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9782503577791-1

    I haven’t found it on-line but this video includes Hoyland’s presentation of the paper: https://vimeo.com/148186511
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1808 - March 19, 2018, 05:40 PM

    Thank you Zeca !
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1809 - March 19, 2018, 08:07 PM

    Yeez - it’s a paper published in this collection: http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9782503577791-1

    I haven’t found it on-line but this video includes Hoyland’s presentation of the paper: https://vimeo.com/148186511


    Thanks zeca  .. that  is a wonderful video on that subject ..  in that  discussion
    Quote
    Discussant: Samir Khalil Samir

    Islamic Origins: The Transformation of a Peripheral Religious Movement?
    Francisco del Rio Sanchez, University of Barcelona

     

    that  Samir Khalil Samir.. is he  not  Christian??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1810 - March 19, 2018, 09:04 PM

    ^Wiki on Samir Khalil Samir: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Khalil_Samir
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1811 - March 20, 2018, 08:09 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/GhileneH/status/975854876927414272
    Quote
    If you are interested in Qur'anic manuscripts and scribal corrections, "Qur'an Gateway" is the website you need (Beta version only, for the moment).
    https://info.qurangateway.org


    Qur’an Gateway: https://info.qurangateway.org/about-quran-gateway/
    Quote
    Our Story

    In 2014, a small group of recent doctorates in Islam and the text of the Qur’an met to imagine how they could turn their work into a useful online tool for the wider scholarly and lay community, in order to make things easier for next generations of students.

    Andy Bannister has made inquiry into the oral-formulaic character of the Qur’an’s text. The substance of his doctoral dissertation has been published as “An Oral Formulaic Study of the Qur’an.” Bannister is the chief author of Qur’an Gateway’s code and functionality, and he has built into Qur’an Gateway many of the analytical functions that he could only dream of when he was conducting his own doctoral research.

    Daniel Brubaker wrote his 2014 doctoral dissertation on physical corrections to early Qur’an manuscripts and has traveled extensively, visiting and viewing directly many thousands of folios of the earliest Qur’an manuscripts and taking detailed notes and photographs. Brubaker’s work has generated interest around the world. Now, for the first time, a very large amount of his research data can be accessed and searched via Qur’an Gateway.

    About Qurʾan Gateway

    Brubaker and Bannister had noticed that while there were already many high quality software tools available for the critical study of biblical texts, few such digital tools yet existed for those engaged in critical study of the text of the Qur’an. This circumstance inspired them to begin development of such a tool, and the result has been Qur’an Gateway.

    Qurʾan Gateway Council of Reference

    Mehdi Azaiez
    Emran El-Badawi
    Fred Donner
    Alba Fedeli
    Asma Hilali
    Thomas Milo
    Gabriel Said Reynolds
    Peter Riddell
    Nicolai Sinai
    Keith E. Small

    Qur’an Gateway now exists to give scholars, students and others working in the area of Islam’s core text a best in class tool to aid them in scholarly study. We seek to provide wide access to the best research on the Qur’an and surrounding literature. We are committed to excellence and the highest standards of academic rigor, product quality, and quality of service to our subscribers. Organizationally and individually, our team strives for

    Integrity of data
    A culture of collaboration that promotes the good work of others
    Kindness and collegiality
    Humility and service

    The Qur’an Gateway research website is the first and principle results of the above aims and goals. We intend for it to become the best digital tool for critical study of the qur’anic text and its history.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1812 - March 20, 2018, 06:00 PM

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi - Why is the Quranic Text Problematic?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0j-7QA-pgAA
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1813 - March 21, 2018, 12:55 AM

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi  is a great scholar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1814 - March 21, 2018, 12:56 AM

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi - Why is the Quranic Text Problematic?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0j-7QA-pgAA


    dear zeca.,  I haven't watched that talk,  but does he think Quranic Text Problematic? or it has no problem ??  that guy is  supposed to be an  expert in that  Shia theology  of Islam ...  He became quite famous after   that book  The Divine Guide in Early Shi’ism  by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi  .,  In fact I say such people are the problem in Islam ., because they make these old religious song sonnet books as  Divine .... Many of these well educated people do not realize the harm they create to young believing minds...

    any way that link is a PDF file of his book ..by the way thanks to that wonderful link in your earlier post
    Yeez - it’s a paper ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hoyland’s presentation of the paper:

    https://vimeo.com/148186511

     that VIMEO link has many important lectures/discussions on early Islam...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1815 - March 21, 2018, 12:59 AM

    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi  is a great scholar.

    Hi Altara  ..

     Scholar. of what ??  Shiaism?? Islamism??  ... Hope he steps/stepped out of THAT BELIEF OF   DIVINE SCRIPTURES from some super intelligent species instead consider them as books of their  time with some good advises.. some bad advises to human life ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1816 - March 21, 2018, 02:06 AM

    Hi Yeez,

    He is one of the few who, with good faith, try to understand (and only this...) something about this mess. He has no thesis, no dogmas, he just ask questions and try to comprehend. It is the only way. Herbert Berg is like that as well. If you listen carefully to the second part of the same video, you will understand. He's asking questions. He is published in English.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1817 - March 21, 2018, 12:36 PM

    Hi Yeez,

    He is one of the few who, with good faith, try to understand (and only this...) something about this mess. He has no thesis, no dogmas, he just ask questions and try to comprehend. It is the only way. Herbert Berg is like that as well. If you listen carefully to the second part of the same video, you will understand. He's asking questions. He is published in English.

    that is a good point.,    that  is the way to go., I have NOT watched that video and have not read his recent works   but he may have changed his views on  faith with time..

    did you read his book?    The Divine Guide in Early Shi’ism  by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi  .,  

    download the pdf link and read it....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1818 - March 22, 2018, 02:23 AM

    Dear Yeez,

    This PDF is a kind of explanation of Shiism. Nothing to see with the origin of the Quran. For this, get https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Quran-Speaking-Scriptural-Sources-ebook/dp/B017WS30O0/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1521684960&sr=8-6&keywords=moezzi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1819 - March 22, 2018, 10:11 AM

    dear zeca.,  I haven't watched that talk,  but does he think Quranic Text Problematic? or it has no problem ??  

    He sees it as problematic and is looking at some ideas about this from Shi’ism in the light of revisionist scholarship. The video is worth watching although the sound quality isn’t great.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1820 - March 25, 2018, 09:15 AM

    Robert Hoyland - The Birth of Arabic in Stone

    https://www.academia.edu/35409186/The_Birth_of_Arabic_in_Stone
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1821 - March 27, 2018, 04:08 PM

    Not sure if anyone posted this, but here is an interesting article by Tommaso Tesei:

    “The Romans Will Win!” Q 30:2‒7 in Light of 7th c. Political Eschatology

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1515/islam-2018-0001

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1822 - March 27, 2018, 04:14 PM

    Dear Altara,

    What I wrote about Dye is based on questions I asked him. He was surprised that someone (you, in this case) ascribed to him the opinion that Mecca was not located in Arabia Deserta. So, yes, he would agree.

    Yes, there are some problems with the traditional narratives concerning Mecca, and that narrative is, as you noted, in contrast to what Dye said. But I do not think Dye's position is irrational. He does not say that the later accounts are accurate. As you know, he is a “revisionist”, and does not adhere to the standard narrative.

    Mecca could have existed before Islam but was not as described in the later Arabic sources.

    And I do not know what you mean by saying: “it is ‘impossible’ for an academic to say what I say here.” Why would Dye shy away from saying something he is convinced of? He certainly espouses many ideas that are not conventional and not are in accordance with the traditional narrative. Please elaborate.

    To be fair, I do not know much about what you said about Ibn Isḥāq concerning Mecca, especially about Mecca being the stronghold for an army consisting of 50,000 men and was the starting point of the conquests. I would appreciate if you could provide the reference for Ibn Isḥāq. And Dye made no comment on this issue.

    Best regards,

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1823 - March 27, 2018, 08:47 PM

    Not sure if anyone posted this, but here is an interesting article by Tommaso Tesei:

    “The Romans Will Win!” Q 30:2‒7 in Light of 7th c. Political Eschatology

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1515/islam-2018-0001




    I am not sure why Tesei writes so many articles on this narrow  subject, but this one is the best yet!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1824 - March 28, 2018, 12:12 AM

    " Hence the following dilemma: we cannot say that the general framework given by the Muslim
    tradition is right and, at the same time, take seriously the Qur’ānic text. If we take the Qur’ān seriously (namely, if we do not bind it on the Procrustean bed that Muslim tradition prepared for it), we should indeed admit at least one of the following scenarios.
    First hypothesis: the Ḥiǧāz at the time of the Prophet had a level of Christian presence and literary
    culture which was comparable to the cities or monasteries of Syria and Palestine: there were Christians in the Ḥiǧāz, Christian ideas were known, and it was also possible to meet there the kind of scribe who was able to write such texts as (among other examples) surah 3, 5, 18 and 19 (and this pertains to the so-called Meccan and Medinan suras).
    Second hypothesis: at least in part (namely, all the time, or only before the emigration to Yaṯrib), Muḥammad’s career did not take place in the Ḥiǧāz, but further north, for example in Trans-Jordan or Palestine.
    Third hypothesis: at the time of the Prophet, there was a Christian presence in the Ḥiǧāz, but the situation was not comparable to Syria or Palestine, or even to what we find further north in the Arabian Peninsula. It was, rather, the subject of a typical process of acculturation. Therefore, if some scholarly Qur’ānic passages were written at this time (or earlier?), the “scholars” who composed them were certainly people situated further north (but maybe also in al-Ḥīra), with whom the Ḥiǧāzī Arabs maintained relations.
     Fourth hypothesis: we should disconnect, more decidedly, the redaction of the Qur’ān and Muḥammad’s career, and acknowledge that a (more or less substantial) part of the Qur’ān was written after the death of Muḥammad (and maybe also, for a smaller part, after ‘Uṯmān?).

    Regarding the scholarly passages of the Qur’ān, a model combining the last two hypotheses seems the most plausible solution. "


    that's all good, but how to prove that, can manuscript study sheds more light on that ?



    Manuscripts could do that if one were to find a manuscript pre-dating Muhammad and his mission or, if it was written somewhere outside of Arabia in the relevant period. Other than that, one analyses the Quran as a text within its historical milieu, where inscriptions, etc. also play an important role. Even the secondary literature can be of use in this aspect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1825 - March 28, 2018, 08:29 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/978615888860598282
    Quote
    Did Arabic at the time of the Prophet and his companions have the case-endings known to classical Arabic today?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1826 - March 28, 2018, 06:09 PM

    Dear Altara,

    What I wrote about Dye is based on questions I asked him. He was surprised that someone (you, in this case) ascribed to him the opinion that Mecca was not located in Arabia Deserta. So, yes, he would agree.


    I've made a short cut saying that "Guillaume Dye has, it seems, abandoned this idea of a "Mecca" in the "Hijaz"". That something called "Mecca" existed has in fact no importance. We do know that this place cannot clothes, feed, equip 20,30, or 40 000 strong to wage war. In fairy tales yes, in the real world no.
    But Dye, (here I correct the shortcut  I've made,) attacks not the existence of a "place" which have no importance. He attacks in 2016 "Mecca" in the "Hijaz"such as described by the traditional account and the Quran  Nothing else. How he does it ? Very cleverly :

    Quoi qu’il en soit, il y a, et c’est le point sur lequel je voulais en venir, une sérieuse tension, qu’il faut expliquer, d’une façon ou d’une autre, je ne vais pas le faire ici, entre le fait qu’une partie substantielle du Coran relève d’un contexte chrétien, et le fait que le Hijaz, la région d’Arabie où le Coran est censé avoir été proclamé, ne connaît apparemment à l’époque, au mieux, qu’une présence chrétienne marginale, contrairement au reste de l’Arabie et du Proche-Orient. Voilà le genre de question, je dirais, que les historiens devraient avoir à traiter dans les années qui viennent.

    (lecture in Paris, July 2016)

    So, that a "place" or something existed has, in fact no importance. Why ? Because, and it is what Dye says,  what the Quran (or some part of it) "shows",  and I say here all the Quran, is a biblical cultural environment, the very good knowledge of Christianity, of specific Christian texts, which cannot have been spread by orality, and that Christianity has no (or marginal) material traces in the Hijaz.  He calls this contrast a "serious tension". The obliged conclusion of this declaration is to put in doubt perforce the location in the "Hijaz" of the production of the Quran. And therefore that the "Mecca" of the traditional account does not exist in the "Hijaz". Of course, he cannot state this obliged conclusion and says :  "Voilà le genre de question, je dirais, que les historiens devraient avoir à traiter dans les années qui viennent."
    But if the "Mecca" of the traditional account is in the "Hijaz", how could it be that nobody, I repeat here, nobody, knows in the Orient laboured by the Persians, The Romans and before them the Greeks --- who goes all to Ceylon and India via the Red Sea ---  "Mecca" ? Whereas Mecca is "shown" in the Quran and the traditional   account who place strongly  this city in the  "Hijaz" as the "Alexandria/Antioch/ Bosra", etc of the western peninsula ?
    There's no reasonable explication to this fact. As there's no reasonable explication to this fact, I say that "Mecca" (in the  "Hijaz") has no existence for these three reasons, nobody knows it, the place is materially incapable to have been the place of clothing, feed, equip 20,30, or 40 000 strong to wage war and there is no trace of the biblical environment and the precise knowledge of specific Christian texts highlighted by Dye.



    Mecca could have existed before Islam but was not as described in the later Arabic sources. .


    No. I explain why above.


    And I do not know what you mean by saying: “it is ‘impossible’ for an academic to say what I say here.” Why would Dye shy away from saying something he is convinced of? He certainly espouses many ideas that are not conventional and not are in accordance with the traditional narrative. Please elaborate.


    Because it is forbidden to contest the traditional account. Patricia Crone was obliged to flee in the USA because she was menaced.


    To be fair, I do not know much about what you said about Ibn Isḥāq concerning Mecca, especially about Mecca being the stronghold for an army consisting of 50,000 men and was the starting point of the conquests. I would appreciate if you could provide the reference for Ibn Isḥāq."
    Best regards, "


    For the traditional account in general, Mecca in the "Hijaz"  is in the  temporal-spatial continuum of the production of the Quran and is the place where the "conquest" has commenced. Or it is materially impossible as I said above.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1827 - March 28, 2018, 11:35 PM

    Not sure if anyone posted this, but here is an interesting article by Tommaso Tesei:

    “The Romans Will Win!” Q 30:2‒7 in Light of 7th c. Political Eschatology

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1515/islam-2018-0001




    Maybe like S. Anthony, Tommaso Tesei has hidden sources to validate that the war mentioned in Q 30:2‒7, is the one started in 602-3 by the Persians. Then he have to show them. For now, I do not know what war the text mention as the Roman and the Persian are in war almost continually since 224 and especially during almost all the 4,5, and 6th c. (yawn)...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1828 - March 29, 2018, 06:51 PM

    Interesting articles by Munther Younes:

    Munther Younes (2008) - Charging Steeds or Maidens Doing Good Deeds? A Re-Interpretation of Qurʾān 100 (al-ʿādiyāt)

    Available: https://goo.gl/pcibcU

    Munther Younes (2009) - Ungrateful or Honorable: Re-examination of the Word Kanūd in Qurʾān 100 (al-ʿĀdiyāt)

    Available: https://goo.gl/hoSKqR
     
    Munther Younes (2017) - Blessing, Clinging, Familiarity, Custom – or Ship? A New Reading of the Word Īlāf in Q 106

    Available: https://goo.gl/AXAdzU

    Younes is also going to publish an entire book on this topic: In Search of the Original Qurʾan (in preparation for publication).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1829 - March 30, 2018, 12:08 AM

    Since someone posted a lecture by Mohammad-Ali Amir-Moezzi, here is his latest article:

    Muḥammad the Paraclete and ʿAlī the Messiah: New Remarks on the Origins of Islam and of Shiʿite Imamology

    https://goo.gl/bRciZ4
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