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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1560 - October 13, 2017, 12:32 AM

    The orientation of the early mosques are  objective data. If these are confirmed, then Gibson's find is truly amazing and can't be discarded.
    I am very glad Altara, dat you reacted to my post. Hope that others will give their opinions too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1561 - October 13, 2017, 11:11 AM

    ............. Gibson's find is truly amazing .................

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wm7Ka4bHck

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGMLlX59SZU79SW67IDXJfw



    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1562 - October 13, 2017, 03:24 PM

    Peter Webb - Identity and Social Formation in the early Caliphate

    https://www.academia.edu/34850361/Identity_and_Social_Formation_in_the_Early_Caliphate_-_Routledge_Handbook_on_Early_Islam
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1563 - October 13, 2017, 03:43 PM

    Hello Zeca,
    No opinion on Gibson's documentary?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1564 - October 13, 2017, 04:10 PM

    It's worth watching and it would be interesting to see a response from some of the academics. Regardless of whether his arguments are correct it's also interesting that, going by the comments, some Muslims seem to be taking them seriously. The documentary looks quite professional - do you know if it was made for television?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1565 - October 13, 2017, 05:02 PM

    An old thread on Muhammad and Mecca from Ian David Morris: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/562260751776501761
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1566 - October 13, 2017, 05:35 PM

    I read the Mecca question (https://www.academia.edu/1776803/The_Mecca_Question before but the documentary is really very well made and does its job to be convincing.  I too wonder who is the driving force backing this documentary (in a lot of languages). There seems to be a weird mix of promoting and shunning the film...

    David King already reacted to Gibson's documentary. He is being very emotional about it which doesnt promote his case :
    https://www.academia.edu/34569516/Response_to_David_King_with_attached_article

    If this early Qibla orientation proves to be true, it would be an immense opportunity for Islam to cut loose of the KSA ties, but I guess I am optimistic here...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1567 - October 13, 2017, 05:46 PM

    On Gibson/Petra/Mecca
    If Gibson is right, It would make explaining early Islam a lot easier no? Not a "backward"group of desert dwellers conquering in a record time this huge empire, but a sophisticated people with a long tradition and a new religion...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1568 - October 13, 2017, 06:06 PM




    when you get employed  by the centers like this http://www.cis-ca.org/aboutus.php  where the  salaries + centers get  funded by SAND LAND KING SNAKES ... you will sing their song ..The Islamic song of sand  land

    http://cis-ca.org/islamscience1.php

    Quote
    Editor: Muzaffar Iqbal

    Quote
    International Advisory Board  

    Talal Asad, Graduate Center, City University of New York, USA
    Syed Muhammad Naquib al-Attas, Malaysia
    Ahmad Dallal, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA
    Gibril Fouad Haddad, SOASCIS, Universiti Brunei Darussalam
    Hamza Yusuf Hanson, Zaytuna College, USA
    Syed Nomanul Haq, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA, USA
    Roshdi Rashed, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Paris, France
    Mustafa Abu Sway, Al-Quds University, Jerusalem, Palestine
    Muhammad Suheyl Umar, Iqbal Academy, Lahore, Pakistan
    Aims and Scope


    Islamic Sciences is a journal of Islamic perspectives on science, civilization and intellectual history. It is dedicated to a creative exploration of the natural and human sciences. The journal publishes articles which critically evaluate contemporary knowledge as seen from within the framework of traditional Islamic thought and learning. It explores ways to renew rigorous and productive links with the intellectual tradition of Islam in order to enhance our understanding of God, life, the cosmos and the human condition.
    ............

    interesting ... I guess business is moved  from Land of Pure to  The Land of Queen In American Continent   "Canada" and David King is no more in it

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1569 - October 13, 2017, 06:15 PM

    Thank you Yeez,

    for bringing Kings' criticism in perspective and clearing our minds... I'll just need to wait on the next scholar commenting on Gibson's work to evaluate the veracity of the data.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1570 - October 13, 2017, 08:24 PM

    Thank you Yeez,

    for bringing Kings' criticism in perspective and clearing our minds... I'll just need to wait on the next scholar commenting on Gibson's work to evaluate the veracity of the data.

    well in that movie   Gibson's work  can easily be criticized but his book and much of his movie appears to be closer the facts than FICTION that  we often  get from paid university faculties on early Islam

    for example   in that movie at 12 mts -13 mts .. he talks about rainfall of    Mecca being less than 10 cm  hence the present Mecca can not be real Mecca ..  that he should take out ., as it is well known that often Mecca., Jeddah and area around  does  flooded by rains ..

    Quote


    In many posts I always proposed .. THERE WAS NO SINGLE MUHAMMAD    in Islam ..,but there were Preachers and multiple warlords  stories added in to Islam in the name of Muhammad The Prophet of Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1571 - October 13, 2017, 10:18 PM

    Flash floods can occur in different places in the desert, but without infrastructure to captivate the water, this water is useless to sustain a large settlement.

    Petra also has limited rainfall but archeology shows that dams and a water transport system existed there to 1/ retain rain water 2/ protect the city from flash floods 3/ transport spring water to city and fields.

    So I don't think Gibson makes a mistake here. As he also mentions,no  pollen are found in soil, so there is no evidence of previous agriculture in Mecca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1572 - October 13, 2017, 11:24 PM

    Flash floods can occur in different places in the desert, but without infrastructure to captivate the water, this water is useless to sustain a large settlement.

    Petra also has limited rainfall but archeology shows that dams and a water transport system existed there to 1/ retain rain water 2/ protect the city from flash floods 3/ transport spring water to city and fields.

    So I don't think Gibson makes a mistake here. As he also mentions,no  pollen are found in soil, so there is no evidence of previous agriculture in Mecca.

    well......   you have Zamzam Well  .lol...

    I am not certain   Gibson  looked for any evidences on ancient  agriculture or archaeology  in and round Mecca  because ruling Saud snakes never allow that    but you  have a point there  dear mundi.,

    Even if we move mecca around the problems of Islam will not go away., The only way to solve complex problems of any faith is to preach/educate people  that their faith is NOT word of allah/god  but a book of  songs and sonnets of its time..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1573 - October 14, 2017, 12:19 AM

    Zimriel's review of Dan Gibson's Quranic Geography: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1VNLI4RQMWEHR/

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1574 - October 14, 2017, 01:38 AM

    Interesting Zeca,

    Zimriel finds the argument (Mecca = Petra) "generally cogent", and "the book deserves to be taken seriously". I hope the documentary will be the occasion for the academic world to just do that and comment on it...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1575 - October 14, 2017, 11:45 AM

    Mehdy Shaddel - Studia onomastica coranica: al-raqīm, caput Nabataeae

    https://www.academia.edu/12372967/Studia_onomastica_coranica_al-raqīm_caput_Nabataeae_Journal_of_Semitic_Studies_62_2017_pp._303-318_
    Quote
    One of the many Quranic terms whose meaning has long vexed the minds of traditional muslim commentators and students of the secular discipline of Quranic studies alike is the word al-raqīm, a hapax legomenon that appears in Qur’ān 18:9, at the beginning of the story of the ‘companions of the cave’. the present study aims to show that this term is a toponym that should be identified with Petra, the capital of the ancient kingdom of Nabataea.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1576 - October 14, 2017, 11:59 AM

    Daniel C Waugh's review of Dan Gibson's Quranic Geography: http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol10/SilkRoad_10_2012_waugh_booknotices.pdf
    Quote
    Dan Gibson. Qur’anic Geography. A Survey and Evaluation of the Geographical References in the Qur’an with Suggested Solutions for Various Problems and Issues. Saskatoon, Canada: Independent Scholar’s Press, 2011. xii + 470 pp. ISBN 978-0-9733642-8-6.

    Lest readers think I am making things up, here in his own words (p. 379) is the author’s conclusion:

    ...Islam was founded in northern Arabia in the city of Petra. It was there that the first parts of the Qur’an were revealed before the faithful were forced to flee to Medina. Thus, the prophet Muhammad never visited Mecca, nor did any of the first four rightly guided caliphs. Mecca was never a centre of worship in ancient times, and was not part of the ancient trade routes in Arabia. All down through history the Arabs made pilgrimages to the holy sites in the city of Petra, which had many ancient temples and churches. It was in Petra that 350 idols were retrieved from the rubble after an earthquake and set up in a central courtyard. It was in Petra that Muhammad directed the destruction of all the idols except one, the Black Stone. This stone remained in the Ka’ba in Petra until it was later taken by the followers of Ibn al-Zubayr deep into Arabia to the village of Mecca for safe keeping from the Ummayad armies. And today it is to this stone that Muslims face, rather than to their holy city and the qibla that Muhammad gave them.

    One might well ask, is there anything in this rambling, self-published book that is to be taken seriously? There certainly is plenty to annoy (yea, even offend Muslims, though I do not believe that such is the author’s purpose). Gibson has immersed himself in Nabataean history and over many years acquired an impressive on-the-ground knowledge of the geography related to it. He has a previous self-published book on the Nabataeans and maintains nabataea.net, a very substantial website devoted to his passion. If there is a Nabataean “nationalist” alive today, then surely it is Dan Gibson. From the standpoint of scholarly argument though, the book will invite serious criticism, as there are leaps of faith which leave even a non-specialist reader like myself gasping. A good deal of the effort goes to identifying what vague scriptural references to tribal groupings may mean and where they were in northwestern Arabia. Important parts of the argument exploit the silences of the sources, not the least being the total absence of Petra in early Muslim traditions about the Muhammad. Arguments ex silentio are rarely convincing.

    That said, there is a lot here which might give us pause. He is certainly not the first to point out the problems in interpreting the relatively few and cryptic references to what we might term “geography” in the Qur’an or the possible conttradictions which arise in trying to establish the factual basis for information contained in the hadiths and early Islamic histories, all of which he repeatedly quotes in extenso. The geography and pre-Islamic history of Mecca are of themselves puzzling. One of the more intriguing conundrums, which surely begs for explanation, is the fact that the qibla (direction of prayer) of the earliest mosques apparently does not point toward Mecca (and may indeed seem to indicate Petra). A more or less consistent orientation toward Mecca indeed seems to come only later. One might well ask how accurate and consistent are Gibson’s own data here, which serve as the basis for a convenient chronologal chart illustrating the shift. It is an accepted part of Islamic belief that Muhammad changed the direction of prayer. The fact that the key passage in the Quran (2: 143–5) seems to be missing in most of the earliest known copies does not, however, have to suggest (pace Gibson) it is a later interpolation. Gibson’s own tablulation of early Quran manuscripts (whose dates, in any event, are far from well established) indicates all those lacking the indicated verses are woefully incomplete. Moreover, he is less than convincing in his attempt to persuade us that early Arabs’ ability to navigate and determine geographic locations with some precision, even if he is right that one should not merely explain away the oddities of early qibla directions as evidence of an inability to determine a bearing. Certainly one should be cautious in extrapolating from the later achievements of Arab science and astronomy to a time for which there is no written documentation.

    What if Gibson is right? Established Muslim belief and practice is certainly not going to change. Nor will those for whom the centrality of Mecca is not an object of faith be convinced by the arguments here. At very least though, this volume might inspire readers to take another look at the history of the Nabataeans, the rise and fall of the incense trade, and the sacred precincts of Petra, subjects which will continue to reward exploration.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1577 - October 14, 2017, 02:07 PM


    Well those of you guys who like Dan Gibson's  work on Quranic Geography., then you have to read the other guy Jay Smith  and his Historical Origins of Islam.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAq22E3E_Us

    I am not sure how many of you know/read him  or watched his youtubes  but here is wiki bio


    Jay Smith (Christian apologist)
    Born   1954 (age 62–63) India
    Nationality   United States
    Education   B.A. Messiah College
    M.Div. Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary
    M.A Fuller Theological Seminary
    Occupation   Christian apologist
    Known for   apologetic, polemics, historical critique

    Quote
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Smith_(Christian_apologist)

    Early life 

     Smith was born in India to Brethren in Christ missionaries and attended high school in India. His grandparents were also missionaries.    He earned a B.A. from Messiah College and then a masters of Divinity from Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary i[1][3][4] apologetics.  He has also earned an M.A. in Islamics from the Fuller Theological Seminary, and a PhD in apologetics and Polemics from the Melbourne School of Theology.

    Focus on Islam

    In 1981, while studying for his masters, Smith took a seminar on Islam and noting that there were only 1,500 Christians ministering to Muslims worldwide, he decided to become a missionary to the Muslim world and pursued a second master's degree in Islamic studies from Fuller Theological Seminary.

    In 1987, Smith moved to Senegal as a missionary and in 1992, he moved to London where he continued his education working on a Ph.D at the London School of Theology.[  In 2001, he halted his education to concentrate on apologetics following a series of Islamic terrorist attacks, including the attack of September 11, 2001.

    In 2007, Smith continued working on his Phd at the Melbourne School of Theology.  He runs the Hyde Park Christian Fellowship, which emphasizes the use of Polemics with Muslims over Apologetics,  and has made appearances at Speakers Corner in Hyde Park, London.
    Quote
    Smith engages in public debates with prominent Muslim apologists and scholars including Omar Bakri Muhammad, Azzam Tamimi,   Shabir Ally, Anjem Choudary, Abdur Raheem Green and Hamza Tzortzis. ]


    Smith believes that although both Islam and Christianity include radicals, moderates, and liberals,
    Quote
    it is radical Muslims that commit violence as they take the Qur’an seriously, while radical Christians who also take the Bible seriously serve others in love. He claims that radical Muslims model their lives on Muhammad, while radical Christians model their lives on Jesus Christ.  Smith believes the growth in radical Islam in Britain is due to disaffected Muslims, often minimally religious, returning to their Islamic roots.

     He says that after reading the Islamic scriptures, (the Quran in conjunction with the hadith, tafsir, and sira), they come to the conclusion that the Salafi/Athari understanding is the true form of Islam.. Smith also believes that although Western actions in the Islamic world can instigate Muslim discontent, it is the Islamic scriptures that encourage the violence. He also rues the fact that moderate Muslims are not able to challenge the radicals using scripture because he believes the radicals have the scriptual authority.. Smith believes that ultimately Muslims will realize that the Muslim scriptures are irrelevant to modern times..

    Smith's polemical approach has been praised by the likes of Salafi Omar Bakri Muhammad.who states:

    I feel very comfortable with Jay (Smith, the apologist) – with him what you see is what you get. He is no hypocrite, and neither are Salafis. His words and actions match his heart. He does not pretend by saying soft words about Islam. The Qu’ran calls for debate… Most U.S. evangelicals refuse to debate Muslims, unlike the courage of Jay, who boldly cries "Jesus is Lord!"........


    so watch him talk

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1578 - October 14, 2017, 02:14 PM

    well Have fun with Jay Smith  debate tubes

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWHV9VnOJtc  

    Jay Smith vs. Dr. Shabir Ally    ...   A 2 and 1/2hrs of discussion ..

    Quote
    On Saturday September 27, 2014, Jay Smith and Dr. Shabir Ally debated on "Which is the Word of God? The Bible or the Qur'an?"

    Jay Smith is an Evangelist and Apologist to Muslims, he holds a Masters degree in Islamic studies from Fuller Theological Seminary and is currently working on a Ph.D at Melbourne School of Theology. ...........

    Dr. Shabir Ally holds an M.A. and PhD in Islamic studies from the University of Toronto. He completed his B.A. in Religious Studies from Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, with a specialization in Biblical Literature. For over 30 years, he has been an active member of the Muslim community in Toronto, as well as an active participant in interfaith dialogues and initiatives. He is an internationally sought after speaker, scholar and theologian, and is the author of numerous books on Islam and the Abrahamic faiths. He has recently taught courses on Arabic, the Quran, and Islam at the University of Toronto in the Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations department. He is President of the Islamic Information & Dawah Centre International in Toronto.

    The Moderator of the Debate, Steven Martins, is a Christian Apologist with the organizers Evangelium & Apologia Ministries. .....................


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1579 - October 14, 2017, 04:18 PM

    On Waugh's comments on Gibson:

    I don't understand a historian belittling the implication of Gibson's Mecca=Petra being right (see his conclusion). Then nothing in his field of work (history) matters, does it? If there were Nobel prizes in history, and if Gibson is right, he would get it (if jury is objective that is).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1580 - October 14, 2017, 05:02 PM



    This is a really interesting and cool article.  I don't put any weight behind the Gibson thesis, but it is interesting that Islamic tradition arguably failed to ascertain this quranic reference to Petra in the context of Arabicizing Christian narratives... and similarly seems to have failed to recall where the tribe of 'Ad was located, as well as what the quranic name for leuke kome was.  Low marks for geographical references.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1581 - October 14, 2017, 05:26 PM

    This is a really interesting and cool article.  I don't put any weight behind the Gibson thesis, but it is interesting that Islamic tradition arguably failed to ascertain this quranic reference to Petra in the context of Arabicizing Christian narratives... and similarly seems to have failed to recall where the tribe of 'Ad was located, as well as what the quranic name for leuke kome was.  Low marks for geographical references.

    On those words of  Zaotar.,  I would say there were plenty of Arab Christians around that time.,  hence  Christian narratives/stories were already Arabicized before the birth of alleged prophet of Islam.  Better Question to ask is.,

    When and where did these Arabic Christian narratives/stories of Arab Christians/Arab Jews became Quranized or Islamized? and who did it?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1582 - October 14, 2017, 05:35 PM

    Maybe Gibson's thesis has not a lot of weight. But isn't it telling that Mehdy ends his very interesting article with footnote 78 as explanation for why the Arab sleepers story was located in Petra?

    78: "Presumably in the absence of a local tradition connecting the companions with Mecca or, for that matter, anywhere else in western Arabia."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1583 - October 14, 2017, 08:17 PM

    Carlos Segovia and Basil Lourié (eds.) - The Coming of the Comforter: When, Where and to Whom? Studies on the rise of Islam and various other topics in memory of John Wansbrough

    https://www.gorgiaspress.com/Content/files/GorgiasOpen/978-1-4632-0158-6.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1584 - October 14, 2017, 09:15 PM

    On those words of  Zaotar.,  I would say there were plenty of Arab Christians around that time.,  hence  Christian narratives/stories were already Arabicized before the birth of alleged prophet of Islam.  Better Question to ask is.,

    When and where did these Arabic Christian narratives/stories of Arab Christians/Arab Jews became Quranized or Islamized? and who did it?

    That's the subject, more or less, of the book linked to above but I'm not sure you're going to get any definitive answers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1585 - October 14, 2017, 11:16 PM

    Herbert Berg and Sarah Rollens - The historical Muhammad and the historical Jesus: A comparison of scholarly reinventions and reinterpretations

    https://www.academia.edu/34133690/The_historical_Muhammad_and_the_historical_Jesus_A_comparison_of_scholarly_reinventions_and_reinterpretations
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1586 - October 14, 2017, 11:41 PM

    Herbert Berg - The Divine Sources

    https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/pdf/doi/10.4324/9781315613093.ch3
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1587 - Yesterday at 05:51 PM

    but it is interesting that Islamic tradition arguably failed to ascertain this quranic reference to Petra in the context of Arabicizing Christian narratives...


    What consequences can one draw from this precise point ? ( All  can feel free to answer this question...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1588 - Yesterday at 06:06 PM

    Herbert Berg and Sarah Rollens - The historical Muhammad and the historical Jesus: A comparison of scholarly reinventions and reinterpretations

    https://www.academia.edu/34133690/The_historical_Muhammad_and_the_historical_Jesus_A_comparison_of_scholarly_reinventions_and_reinterpretations


    I'm not sure that the comparison is appropriate here. The narratives about Jesus have nothing to see with the Quran ; the first ones are Greco-Roman biographies, the other is what... exactly ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1589 - Yesterday at 07:56 PM

    but it is interesting that Islamic tradition arguably failed to ascertain this quranic reference to Petra in the context of Arabicizing Christian narratives... and similarly seems to have failed to recall where the tribe of 'Ad was located, as well as what the quranic name for leuke kome was.  Low marks for geographical references.

    What consequences can one draw from this precise point ? ( All  can feel free to answer this question...)

    Maybe it all points to a discontinuity between the religious and scribal milieu where the Qur'an was written and compiled and the Islamic scholarship that developed a few generations later. If you looked at the transmission of knowledge, ideas and beliefs over the same period in Christian monastic communities or Rabbinic Judaism I expect you'd find a lot more continuity, presumably in part because of institutional continuity. The Qur'an seems to be addressed to people very familiar with stories from Christian literature of one kind or another, but I get the impression that most of that knowledge has disappeared by the time recognisable Islamic scholarship develops. Maybe there wasn't much real continuity between the (probably quite small) scribal communities where the Qur'an was put together, and the Islamic scholars who came later when Arabic had become the administrative language of empire and the need for Arabic literacy, scribal ability and literary production had vastly increased.
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