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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 649224 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9750 - August 30, 2020, 12:42 PM

    Foreigncy podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/156019/1119602-the-origins-of-arabness

    Quote
    Peter Webb - The Origins of Arabness

    In this episode of the podcast, I spoke with Dr. Peter Webb who is a university lecturer of Arabic literature at Universiteit Leiden. Dr. Webb’s research focuses on literature and culture of pre-modern Islam and in this podcast, we discuss the origins of Arabness and his book Imagining the Arabs – Arab Identity and the Rise of Islam.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9751 - August 30, 2020, 02:52 PM



    Thanks Zeca, interesting.
    Edit: p.18 of Donner. It seems that  for him, the point not to be exceeded is the historical existence of Muhammad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9752 - August 30, 2020, 04:03 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Critical Approaches to Pre-Islamic Arabia and Early Islam

    https://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/podcast/critical-approaches-to-pre-islamic-arabia-and-early-islam/

    Just starting he already spoke of the Prophet Muhammad, lived there, etc. It's called :" Critical Approaches to Pre-Islamic Arabia and Early Islam" is it worth to continue?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9753 - August 30, 2020, 04:14 PM

    It’s actually quite a while since I listened to it but as I remember it was worth listening to.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9754 - August 30, 2020, 05:02 PM

    Ok.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9755 - August 31, 2020, 08:16 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1300224516967272455
    Quote
    Today I immensely enjoyed reading Joseph Witztum’s article  in Shii Studies Review. He takes up a specific aspect of an interesting issue: Shiʿi criticisms of the version of the Qurʾan codified by the caliph ʿUthmān (r. 644-656) ...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9756 - August 31, 2020, 09:47 AM

    Interesting. All this stuff is addressed by Moezzi. All in all what is interesting (for me...) is that there is none "Shii" revolt/war against Damascus after the Ali defeat. Whereas if one listens to the Shii,  the second fitna should have been Shii. It was not. Zubayr was not Shii. And it is yet him which led a 10 years war against Abd al Malik. For me there's a big issue here concerning the Shii mythical narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9757 - August 31, 2020, 12:46 PM

    1). there is none "Shii" revolt/war against Damascus..............
    2). if one listens to the Shii,  the second fitna should have been Shii.............
    3). Zubayr was not Shii. ..................
    4). it is yet him which led a 10 years war against Abd al Malik........
    5).  For me there's a big issue here concerning the Shii mythical narrative.............

    Question is .,
    Quote
    who  narrated that story of  The big issue of Shii mythical narrative.  & when ??     and and  how it got popularized in Persia??


    anyway .. let me add that story ((which I have listened umpteen times)) from  Qasim A. Moini published on this Muharram 2020   with a heading Witness to Karbala

    Quote
    ON the burning sands of Karbala 14 centuries ago, mankind’s noblest characters — represented by Imam Husain, his family members and loyal companions — and its absolute worst, in the shape of the Umayyad imperial horde, were on display.

    From the Husaini camp, there are numerous shining examples that personify courage, magnanimity and steadfastness in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. Leading this list is   Imam Husain  himself, who bravely took on the tyrant of his day to save the very foundation of Islam. Moreover,   Bibi Zainab’s  stirring khutbas (sermons) in the courts of Kufa and Damascus shook the throne of Yazid, while   Imam Zain al-Abidin’s eloquence and patience in the face of calamity has few parallels in history.

    Yet another sublime example emerges from this venerable camp: that of Imam Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir, grandson of Imam Husain and son of Imam Zain al-Abidin.  While Imam Baqir was a minor on the day of Ashura, he was a key witness to this massacre, and played an instrumental role in preserving and rebuilding the Islamic edifice after the martyrdom of his grandfather and other family members on the plains of Iraq.

    As recorded by late Iraqi scholar Shaikh Baqir Sharif al-Qarashi, quoting ninth-century historian Yaqubi, Imam Baqir remembers Karbala thus: “My grandfather was killed while I was four years of age. Indeed, I remember his murder and what hit us during that time.”

    From the Husaini camp, there are numerous shining examples.

    As a child, Imam Baqir was an eyewitness to events that still shake anyone with a conscience centuries after the fact. Foremost of these was the brutal slaying of Imam Husain. As mentioned by renowned muhaddith (traditionalist) Shaikh Abbas Qummi in Nafasul Mahmum — one of the most authentic accounts of the Karbala tragedy — Imam Baqir relates that his noble grandfather suffered over 320 wounds from lances, swords and arrows.

    But it did not end there. Imam Baqir witnessed Bibi Zainab, his aunts, sisters and other female relatives — members of the house­hold of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) — treated as prisoners of war by the Umayyad army and held in unspeakable conditions. Moreover, his father Imam Zain al-Abidin, also known as Sajjad, was made to march in fetters in the scorching deserts of Iraq and Syria.

    Yet what is truly remarkable is that even after experiencing such harrowing circumstances, which would have broken even the hardiest of individuals, when Imam Baqir reached adulthood, he played a vital role in rebuilding the Islamic edifice after it had been severely battered by the Umayyads.

    After Karbala there were severe restrictions imposed by the state on members of the Ahlul Bayt. Imam Sajjad started rebuilding the infrastructure of Islamic learning in highly testing times, through his duas and remembering the tragedy that befell his family on Ashura.

    After Imam Sajjad, Imam Baqir built on this foundation and using the mosque of the Holy Prophet as his base, restarted the process of propagating Islamic sciences in the manner of his great-grandfather Hazrat Ali. This was all the more important as the Umayyads — preoccupied with the expansion of their empire and tribal politics — were little concerned about matters of learning and spirituality, and there was no one, other than members of the Ahlul Bayt, to fill the void.

    The impact of Imam Baqir on Islamic learning can be gauged by the fact that his title means ‘opener’, pointing to the fact that he opened and spread knowledge at a time when Islamic society was slipping back into the ways of ignorance. While Damascus served as a hive of imperial politics and intrigue, Madina al-Munawwara, under Imam Baqir’s guidance, once again became the centre of learning.

    Tafsir, hadith and all other branches of knowledge thri­ved in Madina as men of learning flocked to Imam Baqir in order to quench their thirst. In fact even the Umayyad emirs turned to the Imam when unable to answer the great philosophical questions of the day. After Imam Baqir, his son Imam Jafar al-Sadiq would carry forward this stellar tradition of scholarship and piety, giving shape to modern Islamic theology as we know it.

    In these times of adversity, when most of the globe is enveloped in crises of different kinds — political, economic, security and health-related — the inspiring personality of Imam Baqir offers a fine exemplar.

    After Karbala Islamic society was at its lowest ebb, while at a tender age Imam Baqir suffered an immense personal loss. However, instead of withdrawing from the world this noble soul used his God-given knowledge and his strength of character to revive the ummah, all the while keeping alive the tragedy his family underwent so that revisionists were unable to twist the facts.

    Imam Baqir’s life teaches us that in the face of great adversity, those who rely on Allah and the way of His Prophet stand their ground and illuminate new paths for the benefit of mankind.

    well that is a usual version of early shia Islamic story that every kid learns.,  you can read more of it under those hidden codes.,

    without doubt that story is very emotional how Prophet's grand son'r and their family were treated by those early Umayyad Caliphate.,  the only thing shia kids do in the Indian subcontinent  is listening that story   beating their chests and crying for  the members of the house­hold of the Holy Prophet Muhammad..(PBUH).,  Well after reading early Islalic history .. and Quran inside out... what I get is    what Allat wrote some eight years ago.  allat said 
    Dreams and visions and random arbitrary accounts of things nobody could possibly have reliably reported. No documentation, nothing that could actually be held up to scrutiny. Just smoke and mirrors.  No wonder so many Muslims freak out when someone actually devotes some real scholarship into looking into Islam's origins and Mohammed's history.  Honestly, JK Rowling put more thought into the mythology, magic and prophesies in the Harry Potter series.


     
    That post is 8 year old....  ha! time runs away., Anyway.,  that is what Shia Scholar Qasim A. Moini he writes on that Karbala story... did it really happened that way?? only Allah knows the best.. and let me add Shia Islam timeline and the gaps  in it.. well those early names of Shia Islam are highlighted.... well Islamic history is filled with stories...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9758 - September 01, 2020, 07:40 PM

    Quote
    who  narrated that story of  The big issue of Shii mythical narrative.  & when ??     and and  how it got popularized in Persia??


    1/ Shii have narrated (Cf. Moezzi who is in English now). They were more imaginative than the one who have invented (at least the milieu from where he emerges)  the first few lines of the traditional narrative which have been regularly increased though time. Shii draw upon the narrative and since Ali is Iraqi he was integrated as a "cousin" of the Prophet and husband of his daughter, etc (the places were free, nobody at that time had thought to pretend this)...  but partisans of Ali did, because it was a kind of fight against the rule of Damascus. They ending (or maybe commencing...) pretending that he was , actually, legitimate to be outside of the Damascus power as he was the "true" successor of the "prophet" and that he should rule and not ruled and that the Damascus power was illegitimate in Iraq.
    Zubayr never said he was the successor, husband of the daughter, gender, cousin, of the "prophet" he did not told stories about all this kind of things. Would he have done so that the same style of story than the Shii one would have emerged.

    2/ Because Arabs Shii have been, seeing that they had no political power, good missionaries to their Persians fellow neighbours. But all the authors of the Hadith Sahih  were Sunni Persians and not Shii, attesting of the fact that Shii were (very) few and immigrated elsewhere due to the Sunni imperial and theological power.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9759 - September 02, 2020, 07:43 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1300916804534046720
    Quote
    When the 3rd caliph ʿUṯmān b. ʿAffān tasked the committee led by Zayd b. Ṯābit to write the official Mushaf, he is said to have told them "write it in the language of the Quraysh, for it has been revealed in their tongue." This seems incompatible with the canonical readings.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9760 - September 02, 2020, 08:31 AM

    Of course. The specific language of "Quraysh" in Mecca/Kaba has never existed. In contrast The Quranic language like all the Arabic dialects is specific but outside of this frame.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9761 - September 02, 2020, 08:32 AM

    Muhammad & the Empires of Faith (Review)

    https://eireviews.blogspot.com/2020/07/muhammad-empires-of-faith-review.html

    "Anthony goes about this task not merely by showing off new tricks with which to unlock parts of the sira-maghazi literature — though he does that too. The book instead touches on all major types of evidence scholars have long wrangled with, and provides a holistic framework within which to integrate them. It is to this theoretical scaffolding -- essentially a contextualisation of the sira-maghazi literature -- that I shall devote most time to, even though it forms only a minority of the book proper. This is due to both reasons of personal interest, and because I believe the book's overarching message will rise and fall based on how convincing the larger interpretive framework is found to be.

    In a rather terse and schematic way, the general framework could be summarised as follows:

        We have four classes of evidence:

            The Quran (7th c.)

            Early Non-Muslim Accounts (7th c.)

            Material Evidence (7th c.)

            Arabic literary sources (~ 8th c. +)

        Due to their earliness, (i) The Quran, (ii) Early Non-Muslim Accounts, and (iii) the Material Evidence, are first-order sources. They predate the rise of the sira-maghazi literature.

        When read together carefully, these first-order sources provide us with a low-resolution baseline picture of the historical Muhammad.

        The sira-maghazi literature is a second-order source. It must be read, with appropriate caution, in light of the Quran in particular, as well as the general historical-baseline obtained from a careful reading of the first-order sources.

        Reading strategies for the sira-maghazi literature include "vertical" approaches of reading "within a tradition", and "lateral" approaches of reading "across traditions". The latter involves reading the sira-maghazi literature in dialogue with other late antique traditions, such as hagiography."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9762 - September 02, 2020, 09:04 AM

    Of course.

    sounds  like sarcastic  comment ....  but
     but where from did Putten  got that  "He said..,,,,I said " statement??
     
    Quote
    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1300916804534046720

    When the 3rd caliph ʿUṯmān b. ʿAffān tasked the committee led by Zayd b. Ṯābit to write the official Mushaf, he is said to have told them "write it in the language of the Quraysh, for it has been revealed in their tongue." This seems incompatible with the canonical readings


     where did Putten  got that  this   he is said to have told them " ??   .. what hadith??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9763 - September 02, 2020, 09:26 AM



    MVP:
    "While today there are 10 accepted canonical readings, with 2 transmissions each which can differ quite significantly in their linguistic details, not a single one of them agrees with the universally agreed upon linguistic features of Hijazi (or more specifically Qurashi) Arabic."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9764 - September 02, 2020, 09:28 AM

    Quote
    where did Putten  got that  this   he is said to have told them " ??   .. what hadith??


    I'm not sure but I think it is Bukhari. In any case it is the traditional Muslim views of the events.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9765 - September 02, 2020, 12:04 PM

    M.A. Thesis: The Qur’anic Ḥanīfiyya and its Role as a Middle Nation

    https://www.academia.edu/24639434/M_A_Thesis_The_Qur_anic_%E1%B8%A4an%C4%ABfiyya_and_its_Role_as_a_Middle_Nation

    This thesis examines the material which helps scholars understand the Qur’anic use of ḥanīf and arrives at an understanding of ḥanīf translated as “Gentile,” which I demonstrate reconciles the connotation of ḥanīf in the Qur’an with definitions found in the larger Semitic lexica. In order to give semantic meaning to the lexical findings, I group theories which frame signifier ḥanīf into three differing signifieds: (1) a real-world religious group predating Islam in Arabia; (2) Urmonotheism, that is, indication of the existence of an original monotheism in Arabia; (3) an allusion to the mythical status of Abraham as the first monotheist as a legitimization of Muhammad’s message.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9766 - September 03, 2020, 08:33 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1060162020874612736
    Quote
    Lord help me, I'm back in the weirder parts of Arabic tradition.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9767 - September 03, 2020, 12:04 PM


    Instead of running around lord to help him or  running around  the weirder parts of Arabic traditions...

    he should read .. how actually stories were told in ancient times and how the meaning of words in a context   makes huge difference ..

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/3176471

    Mocking .. laughing.. smiling.. grinning all have same/similar face shapes... but expresses  different mood of the person in a given context..  one of the serious problem with academics appears to be .. THEY THINK ARABS OF THE TIME .. or people of Arabian peninsula of that time were all pagans and there were NO ARAB JEWS AND ARAB CHRISTIAN.... in other words there were no connections between Arabic language and Christianity or Judaism scriptural stories of that time.   And they assume Arabic language is originated with Quran.. and  before Quran  nothing was written in Arabic in any Arabic scripts that were floating round peninsula

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9768 - September 04, 2020, 04:27 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1301902397736919045
    Quote
    Some folks reading this thread saw a "Shii bias" in noticing a textual problem in this or that passage of the Qur'an; however, this is not the case. These are commonplace "textual puzzles" compiled by early scholars of the Qur'an that this Shii literature reacts to.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9769 - September 04, 2020, 08:36 PM

    well in view my interest in Shii Islam as I grew up with   wonderful shia Muslim Grand parents .. (as a kid I have strong bond and memories of  Shia Islam) and our ever energetic zeca is turning his attention exploring Shia Islam....
     
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1301902397736919045

    Some folks reading this thread saw a "Shii bias" in noticing a textual problem in this or that passage of the Qur'an; however, this is not the case. These are commonplace "textual puzzles" compiled by early scholars of the Qur'an that this Shii literature reacts to.

     
    and and  on top of that Altara said something about Shia Islam.. .....ALL STORIES NO FACTS.... specially that karabala story .. it is bothering me  ..there is a hole in my life.. So I am reading and reading..... The Shia Islam  and I am going to read this book of dr. Patricia Crone,
     


    The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran _ Rural Revolt and Local Zoroastrianism
      Dr.  Patricia Crone,
    Institute for Advanced Study,
    Princeton, New Jersey
    PUBLISHED: March 2014
    and on the way let me read..

    1).  Persian Heretics and Heresies

    2). Shia Islam

    3).  Islam's Sunni-Shia Divide, Explained., The split between the two main sects within Islam goes back some 1,400 years.


    well .. Hello Altara ...   I wonder whether you read that book... I know your views on dr.  Patricia Crone's  work ...and you are also  familiar with  her books and publications....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9770 - September 04, 2020, 09:51 PM

    I read it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9771 - September 05, 2020, 08:39 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1301990294779498499
    Quote
    1/The Islamic tradition is adamant that Muḥammad is the "seal of prophecy" or "seal of prophets" (خاتم النبيين). But the Muslim tradition wasn't the first to lay claim to "seal of prophecy". A mini thread on the doctrine of "seal of prophecy"

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9772 - September 05, 2020, 02:29 PM

    I read it.



     well I went through that book..  but I can safely say here .. she did not do a good job on that.. In a  586 pages book.. she could have spared at least a 10 pages  on explaining the Karabla story of Islam... She completely evaded it.,  A person writing a book on Islam in Iran can not  skip  the story of Karbala tragedy of Islam which is told umpteen times in Shia Islam..

    Altara I wonder whether you can throw some relevant books/published papers .. on that subject apart from
     
    1/ Shii have narrated (Cf. Moezzi who is in English now). They were more imaginative than the one who have invented (at least the milieu from where he emerges)  the first few lines of the traditional narrative which have been regularly increased though time.  ........

    and also can you link a publication from him on that subject??

      Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-7QA-pgAA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_1Xr_Ic44

    thank you....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9773 - September 05, 2020, 08:01 PM

    https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Quran-Speaking-Scriptural-Sources-ebook/dp/B017WS30O0/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=moezzi&link_code=qs&qid=1599335053&sr=8-12&tag=amznsearchff-20

    Kerbala is the continuation of the East vs West conflict. Nothing else. Iraq does not want to submit to Damascus, nothing new under the sun here.  It has been Islamized afterwards. The son of Ali death will not stop the conflict and Zubayr will continue it until 692 when he is defeated. This story is very simple Yeez. Very.

    Quote
    and also can you link a publication from him on that subject??


    Moezzi is Shii. He fully believe to the traditional account but he uses the Western "scepticism" about the Muslim sources to call into question the Sunni account about the Quran, etc. By this means he continues the Shii combat againts Sunnis.He is a great believer; therefore he does not think (at all) like me who unislamized all this stuff (battles, etc).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9774 - September 05, 2020, 08:15 PM

    https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Quran-Speaking-Scriptural-Sources-ebook/dp/B017WS30O0/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=moezzi&link_code=qs&qid=1599335053&sr=8-12&tag=amznsearchff-20

    Kerbala is the continuation of the East vs West conflict. Nothing else. Iraq does not want to submit to Damascus, nothing new under the sun here.

    1). It has been Islamized afterwards. The son of Ali death will not stop the conflict and Zubayr will continue it until 692 when he is defeated.

    2).  This story is very simple Yeez. Very.

     I do understand your simplified version of early Islamic events.,  but on that point one.,

    Question is.,  were these guys real?  Are those names of rightly guided caliphs and ....their wives......children real??

    did that event really occur at Karbala ..

    did it occur  or is it just a story??

    and and when you say " Islamized afterwards." .. what time line do you propose for that Islamization?? 9th century?? 10th century ??   we should note here Persia did not really became Shia  Islamic nation until 14th or 15 th century.. during that Safavid dynasty.....

    Quote
    Moezzi is Shii. He fully believe to the traditional account but he uses the Western "scepticism" about the Muslim sources to call into question the Sunni account about the Quran, etc. By this means he continues the Shii combat againts Sunnis.He is a great believer; therefore he does not think (at all) like me who unislamized all this stuff (battles, etc).

    that I will agree with you on Amir Moezzi..  ., irrespective of whether he is believer or not ., it is vital for  Mohammad Moezzi to have good terms with the present Mullah govt .. So he has to say what he need to say in support of shii Islam.,

    and I am glad to read your posts...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9775 - September 05, 2020, 09:33 PM

    Quote
    Question is.,  were these guys real?
    did that event really occur at Karbala .. did it occur  or is it just a story??


    That Ali (who has existed as amir al muminin of Al-Hira) got a son who has refused the oath to Yazid of Damascus and was killed in an ambush near Kerbala is perfectly possible.
    Quote
    and and when you say " Islamized afterwards." .. what time line do you propose for that Islamization?? 9th century?? 10th century ??   we should note here Persia did not really became Shia  Islamic nation until 14th or 15 th century.. during that Safavid dynasty.....


    1/Between Kerbala and 710: a slow islamization concomitant to the West one.2/ Yes.


    Quote
    and I am glad to read your posts...


    I hope lol!!!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9776 - September 06, 2020, 12:55 PM

    That Ali (who has existed as amir al muminin of Al-Hira) got a son who has refused the oath to Yazid of Damascus and was killed in an ambush near Kerbala is perfectly possible.

    1/Between Kerbala and 710: a slow islamization concomitant to the West one.2/ Yes.


    well "perfectly possible" is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.,.......

     anything is possible including that story of Prophet of Islam ... "Muhammad"PBUH..   that i heard to ad nauseum all throughout  my life .. and now i am at  point of nausea when i hear  that story..

    Question is.,   is there any proof that really happened?

    Question is ., Ali ibn Abi Talib born on  13th September 601 and died on 29 January 661  was supposed to be  a cousin and son-in-law of the prophet Muhammad, who became the fourth caliph from 656 to 661......  WAS A REAL FIGURE ? or is it a just story with that name?

    I am sure You know this 72 virgin story of Islam from hadith.. in the same way there are 72 martyrs in that  karbala tragedy...  72 number is important....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdqWXJuPZk8

    anyways please continue to explore early Islamic history .. I look forward to your book...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9777 - September 06, 2020, 03:52 PM

    Quote
    well "perfectly possible" is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.,.......


    As an episode of a war rather banal, it is; as such there is nothing at stakes here. Nothing. Except all the stories which have been put on this. One governs people with stories and nothing else.

    Quote
    anything is possible including that story of Prophet of Islam ... "Muhammad"PBUH..   that i heard to ad nauseam all throughout  my life .. and now i am at  point of nausea when i hear  that story..


    Well...
    Quote
    Question is.,   is there any proof that really happened?


    Do you consider Shii complaints as a proof?

    Quote
    Question is ., Ali ibn Abi Talib born on  13th September 601 and died on 29 January 661  was supposed to be  a cousin and son-in-law of the prophet Muhammad, who became the fourth caliph from 656 to 661......  WAS A REAL FIGURE ? or is it a just story with that name?


    He was amir al muminin of Al Hira under the name of Abu Turab: We have one external source:

    "When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira, at Siffin and defeated him."
    George of Resh'aina (d.c.680), Syriac Life of Maximus XXIII, 312-13.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9778 - September 06, 2020, 06:33 PM

    As an episode of a war rather banal, it is; as such there is nothing at stakes here. Nothing. Except all the stories which have been put on this. One governs people with stories and nothing else.

    well then that is it.. it is just a damn story .. and on that I say., in 21st  century ONLY FOOLS GET GOVERNED BY STORIES .. not me..  it is ok as a child to hear and to act upon that story as drama character., not now..
    Quote
    Well...
    Do you consider Shii complaints as a proof?

    nope.. no.... I don't consider Shii complaints.. sunni  complaints or any ones complaints /stories as proof

    no wells.. no ifs & no buts.. those days are gone... either proof or zam-zam  water ....
    Quote
    Quote
    He was amir al muminin of Al Hira under the name of Abu Turab: We have one external source:


    "When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira, at Siffin and defeated him."
    George of Resh'aina (d.c.680), Syriac Life of Maximus XXIII, 312-13.

    well that is important .. and that is what I was looking from your post...and exploring that part of early Islam is important for me....  Damn you are good...

    if you have any more publications on Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira,.,  please post them here

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9779 - September 06, 2020, 09:44 PM

    Quote
    if you have any more publications on Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira,.,  please post them here


    To my knowledge, it is the only external text about Abu Turab (who is "Ali" according to the Muslim narrative).
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